On Mon, 05 Apr 2004 21:40:25 GMT, "Michi Henning"
wrote:

"Graham Broadbridge" wrote in message
. au...
"Michi Henning" wrote in message
...

BTW -- you should try to get those nitrate levels down. 100ppm is
definitely on the very high side where it will be toxic for at least some
fish species. Adding lots more plants will help in reducing nitrate
levels.

At 100 ppm NO3 there is some evidence that plants themselves shut down at
normal (0.05 - 0.1 ppm) Fe and trace levels.

Ah, I didn't know that, thanks! Do you have any links?

I cannot say that I have ever seen that myself with my 100ppm plus
Nitrate levels. As even my Myriophyllum Tuberculatum (red) ones, who
due to my extremely hard water and low lighting, only went and turned
brown and died greatly back are now putting out some green shoots.

Kind of odd to have a naturally Red plant that is Brown and Green
instead, but there you go.

I will keep that in mind though, but I cannot see how too much Nitrate
food can ever be a problem. Maybe that depends on the plant species,
where that would be an unusual species.

So I would also be interested in further details, when it could be
something to watch out for. Nitrate at 100ppm is not that high as
these things can go, when my aquarium Nitrate levels would exceed that
level just before my weekly water change.

At most I guess is that I have grown plants in Nitrate levels of
250ppm plus before, but of course then they and everything else gets
attacked by algae.

One reason I guess why too much Nitrate levels in nature, with for
example sewage discharge will kill plants, when there is no one to
clean the algae off the plants.

Well my water guide mentions that Nitrate levels between 25 and 100
are normal aquarium levels, even if it also says that Nitrate levels
should ideally be kept below 25 to avoid algae growth.

Anyway, today I finally got around to ordering those 18 plants for
this aquarium and then a couple of plants to go in my other aquariums,
where I will be happy to report how my Nitrate levels change.

I can only hope for a Nitrate reduction, when then I won't have to buy
that more expensive Nitrate Filter, but I consider that a long shot.

Cardman
http://www.cardman.com
http://www.cardman.co.uk

"Michi Henning" wrote in message
...

BTW -- you should try to get those nitrate levels down. 100ppm is
definitely on the very high side where it will be toxic for at least some
fish species. Adding lots more plants will help in reducing nitrate
levels.

At 100 ppm NO3 there is some evidence that plants themselves shut down at
normal (0.05 - 0.1 ppm) Fe and trace levels.

Graham .

"Cardman" wrote in message
...

BTW -- you should try to get those nitrate levels down. 100ppm is
definitely on the very high side where it will be toxic for at least some
fish species.

My fish can live in much higher levels perfectly fine, where they just
become unhappy in a world where algae rules. So they are very happy
with anything between 50 and 150 mg/l, when algae growth is very slow
at this level.

100 ppm NO3 is extremely toxic for freshwater fish, but of course any animal
can acclimatize to unsavoury conditions given time. I'm not surprised that
algae growth is slow at 100 ppm Nitrates. Algae is opportunistic and will
find a better environment or hibernate.

Adding lots more plants will help in reducing nitrate
levels.

A nice idea, but what you do not mention is that plants in fact use up
very little Nitrate, which is why I would have to bed plants very
heavily for any beneficial effects.

Plants use a lot of NO3 here. Given that your nitrate levels exceed 100ppm
I'm not surprised that you see no NO3 consumption.
The poor plants have no chance to even get started.

I'd suggest you reduce nitrate from your tap water to start with.

Regards
Graham.

"Michi Henning" wrote in message
...

Well, you could try lots of plants, and slow filter. That will contribute
toward reducing nitrates. You also add a denitrification filter. From
what I hear, they are a bit finicky though -- the the flow rate too high
and they do nothing, and get it too low, and they put hydrogen sulfate
into the water. (H2S is toxic.) But such a filter may not be a bad choice
given that you have high nitrate levels in your tap water.

I've had very little success with denitrification filters. About 10 years
ago I tried a
sera denitrator and that failed dismally - although that may have been
because I didn't
understand the process and my flow rate was probably too high.

Recently I tried a home brew filter using around 50 metres of tubing, but I
couldn't get
the flow rate correct to maintain an anaerobic culture. It just clogged up.

Best bet to reduce nitrate levels are lots of adequately fertilised plants
and water changes.

Even that has it's challenges :-)



Graham.

"Michi Henning" wrote in message
...

Well, you could try lots of plants, and slow filter. That will contribute
toward reducing nitrates. You also add a denitrification filter. From
what I hear, they are a bit finicky though -- the the flow rate too high
and they do nothing, and get it too low, and they put hydrogen sulfate
into the water. (H2S is toxic.) But such a filter may not be a bad choice
given that you have high nitrate levels in your tap water.

I've had very little success with denitrification filters. About 10 years
ago I tried a
sera denitrator and that failed dismally - although that may have been
because I didn't
understand the process and my flow rate was probably too high.

Recently I tried a home brew filter using around 50 metres of tubing, but I
couldn't get
the flow rate correct to maintain an anaerobic culture. It just clogged up.

Best bet to reduce nitrate levels are lots of adequately fertilised plants
and water changes.

Even that has it's challenges :-)



Graham.

"Cardman" wrote in message
...
I would say at a crude guess that my Nitrate levels increase by about
50ppm per week, which is why I cannot leave it for more than a couple
of weeks without a good water change, when algae growth is explosive
if I do not change the water in that time.

Wow, an increase of 50ppm per week nitrate is huge :-)

Add lots of plants :-) The aim really is to balance the fish load with
plant load
so hopefully the nitrate can be utilised by the plants.

You can then spend time admiring the aquarium rather than slaving over it.

I prefer to have a deficit of nitrate, so I can add it when necessary
together with other
nutrients. That sure beats excess nitrates and phosphates which lead to
excess algae.

I have to add nitrates twice weekly to keep
the level at around 10ppm. Even if I dose the tank to 20ppm, three to
four
days later, it's back down to zero. The plants definitely have something
to
with this. I suspect (but don't know for sure) that there may also be
some
amount of anaerobic nitrate reduction happening in my canister filter
and possible in parts of the substrate.

Sounds like you need some more fish, where my White Mollies make for a
good example of the type that would be good at Nitrate production.

No No No :-) Don't do it :-) Add nitrate by hand rather than adding fish.

If you add fish you can end up with a extremely finely balanced system where
a single
nutrient deficiency can result in an algal bloom.

Only my opinion of course, but I like to keep the tank under *my* control,
rather than
attempting to correct imbalances caused by excess fish load.


Graham.

"Cardman" wrote in message
...
I would say at a crude guess that my Nitrate levels increase by about
50ppm per week, which is why I cannot leave it for more than a couple
of weeks without a good water change, when algae growth is explosive
if I do not change the water in that time.

Wow, an increase of 50ppm per week nitrate is huge :-)

Add lots of plants :-) The aim really is to balance the fish load with
plant load
so hopefully the nitrate can be utilised by the plants.

You can then spend time admiring the aquarium rather than slaving over it.

I prefer to have a deficit of nitrate, so I can add it when necessary
together with other
nutrients. That sure beats excess nitrates and phosphates which lead to
excess algae.

I have to add nitrates twice weekly to keep
the level at around 10ppm. Even if I dose the tank to 20ppm, three to
four
days later, it's back down to zero. The plants definitely have something
to
with this. I suspect (but don't know for sure) that there may also be
some
amount of anaerobic nitrate reduction happening in my canister filter
and possible in parts of the substrate.

Sounds like you need some more fish, where my White Mollies make for a
good example of the type that would be good at Nitrate production.

No No No :-) Don't do it :-) Add nitrate by hand rather than adding fish.

If you add fish you can end up with a extremely finely balanced system where
a single
nutrient deficiency can result in an algal bloom.

Only my opinion of course, but I like to keep the tank under *my* control,
rather than
attempting to correct imbalances caused by excess fish load.


Graham.

"Michi Henning" wrote in message
...
At 100 ppm NO3 there is some evidence that plants themselves shut down
at
normal (0.05 - 0.1 ppm) Fe and trace levels.

Ah, I didn't know that, thanks! Do you have any links?

I knew someone would ask for references :-)

Sorry Michi, I read it somewhere and it seems to agree with my
observations/experimentation, but for the life of me I can't find the
reference. From memory it was in relation to commercial cultivation of
aquatic plants. It may have been on a hydroponic site, but like I said I
can't find it at the moment.

Regards
Graham.

"Michi Henning" wrote in message
...
At 100 ppm NO3 there is some evidence that plants themselves shut down
at
normal (0.05 - 0.1 ppm) Fe and trace levels.

Ah, I didn't know that, thanks! Do you have any links?

I knew someone would ask for references :-)

Sorry Michi, I read it somewhere and it seems to agree with my
observations/experimentation, but for the life of me I can't find the
reference. From memory it was in relation to commercial cultivation of
aquatic plants. It may have been on a hydroponic site, but like I said I
can't find it at the moment.

Regards
Graham.

"Cardman" wrote in message
...

Your conditions may well be too alkaline and hard for the plant to
thrive.

Maybe that is one reason why these two plants suffered a rapid death,
where only their core sections are now alive.

From what I have read Myriophyllum Tuberculatum is a little more
flexible in the water quality than what you seem to indicate, where it
just does not like the extremes.

Like my former extremely hard water.

Seems likely. I forgot to mention that the plant is also very light
demanding, which may be part of the problem.

And there they were doing so well in the pet shop with no real
maintenance sources, like a light, either. I think we know why that
is...

Because they order a bunch of new ones every week to replace the
ones that are dying? ;-)

BTW -- you should try to get those nitrate levels down. 100ppm is
definitely on the very high side where it will be toxic for at least some
fish species.

My fish can live in much higher levels perfectly fine, where they just
become unhappy in a world where algae rules. So they are very happy
with anything between 50 and 150 mg/l, when algae growth is very slow
at this level.

If your fish are happy, no prob. Some species apparently die above 50ppm.
(No first-hand experience with this for me, I'm just repeating what I've read
in various books.) But other species tolerate much higher levels, so I guess
it depends on what fish you keep.

Adding lots more plants will help in reducing nitrate
levels.

A nice idea, but what you do not mention is that plants in fact use up
very little Nitrate, which is why I would have to bed plants very
heavily for any beneficial effects.

Not sure about that. I have a fairly heavily planted tank (admittedly with
not all that large a fish load). I have to add nitrates twice weekly to keep
the level at around 10ppm. Even if I dose the tank to 20ppm, three to four
days later, it's back down to zero. The plants definitely have something to
with this. I suspect (but don't know for sure) that there may also be some
amount of anaerobic nitrate reduction happening in my canister filter
and possible in parts of the substrate.

And so there is nothing that I can really do when it comes out the tap
at 50 mg/l +-20% to begin with, where the fish pooping will only cause
it to go higher.

That is unless you know of some way to turn Nitrate into something
else that won't harm fish?

Well, you could try lots of plants, and slow filter. That will contribute
toward reducing nitrates. You also add a denitrification filter. From
what I hear, they are a bit finicky though -- the the flow rate too high
and they do nothing, and get it too low, and they put hydrogen sulfate
into the water. (H2S is toxic.) But such a filter may not be a bad choice
given that you have high nitrate levels in your tap water.

Or you could use reverse osmosis water for all your water changes
(adding the appropriate salts to bring hardness up to what you want,
of course). But that's quite tedious process compared to just running
the garden hose into the tank.

In case you are interested, then I am soon to stock a load of varies
plants that are rated in the "easy" level and suitable for my water.

My shopping list is currently...

5 x Hygrophila Polysperma
1 x Anubias Nana
3 x Crinium Thainium
5 x Microsorium Pteropus
5 x (Assorted) Cryptocorynes

The hygrophila would be your best bet as a nitrate remover.
It's quick-growing and fixes nitrates well. The anubias, java fern,
and the crypts will do their bit too, but not as effectively because
they are fairly slow-growing plants. (I don't have experience with
the Crinium.) Another one you might want to consider is Vallisneria.
Good at removing nitrates and not easily infected by algae.

At any rate, lots of plants and few fish are likely to reduce nitrates
by quite a bit. And the plants will be happy with the nitrates -- it's
food :-) Keep the plants happy by adding traces (PMDD or some
such and CO2) and you may well find your nitrate levels dropping
quite a bit.

Cheers,

Michi.
--
Michi Henning Ph: +61 4 1118-2700
ZeroC, Inc. http://www.zeroc.com

On Mon, 05 Apr 2004 13:41:35 GMT, "Michi Henning"
wrote:

"Cardman" wrote in message
.. .

Like my former extremely hard water.

Seems likely. I forgot to mention that the plant is also very light
demanding, which may be part of the problem.

Yes, which why it seems rather hopeless at providing for it's very
high light requirements. Not good water and not good lighting would
well explain why this plant died so quickly.

And there they were doing so well in the pet shop with no real
maintenance sources, like a light, either. I think we know why that
is...

Because they order a bunch of new ones every week to replace the
ones that are dying? ;-)

Seems like they do that for the fish as well. As I have been to more
than a few fish stores in my time, where that one was quite bad with
more than a few fish dying in their many aquariums.

My fish can live in much higher levels perfectly fine, where they just
become unhappy in a world where algae rules. So they are very happy
with anything between 50 and 150 mg/l, when algae growth is very slow
at this level.

If your fish are happy, no prob. Some species apparently die above 50ppm.
(No first-hand experience with this for me, I'm just repeating what I've read
in various books.) But other species tolerate much higher levels, so I guess
it depends on what fish you keep.

I guess that any fish that does not like my water would soon exit it,
which at least reminds me of one case where that has happened. An
elephant-nosed something or other I recall, which had to navigate a
very hard assault course to eventually die on the wrong side of my
former condensation lid.

That was many years ago, but I named that one James Bond for doing
something that I considered near impossible. Up through a tiny gap, on
to the backing shelf, through an inch wide hole, then to die on the
condensation lid under the light.

Most fish living in this region I guess would soon adjust to the local
water supply, when I doubt that many people would spend hours
processing their water first.

Adding lots more plants will help in reducing nitrate
levels.

A nice idea, but what you do not mention is that plants in fact use up
very little Nitrate, which is why I would have to bed plants very
heavily for any beneficial effects.

Not sure about that. I have a fairly heavily planted tank (admittedly with
not all that large a fish load).

Obviously we can now see why your Nitrate levels are so low, where
equally removing my many fish from my tank would do the same.

My increasing Nitrate problem I am sure is due to my White Mollies who
like to both eat and poop a great deal. That is part of the reason why
they would soon be in a larger 40 gallon aquarium, when these five
young White Mollies are soon to become adults.

I would say at a crude guess that my Nitrate levels increase by about
50ppm per week, which is why I cannot leave it for more than a couple
of weeks without a good water change, when algae growth is explosive
if I do not change the water in that time.

I have to add nitrates twice weekly to keep
the level at around 10ppm. Even if I dose the tank to 20ppm, three to four
days later, it's back down to zero. The plants definitely have something to
with this. I suspect (but don't know for sure) that there may also be some
amount of anaerobic nitrate reduction happening in my canister filter
and possible in parts of the substrate.

Sounds like you need some more fish, where my White Mollies make for a
good example of the type that would be good at Nitrate production.

They don't much eat the plants either, when they seem to prefer algae,
but maybe you prefer manually adding Nitrate.

The only thing about Mollies is that the largest male can go about
chasing both other males and females in their mating ritual. So it is
not a good idea to keep Mollies with the likes of Swordtails, Platies
and maybe even Guppies.

And so there is nothing that I can really do when it comes out the tap
at 50 mg/l +-20% to begin with, where the fish pooping will only cause
it to go higher.

That is unless you know of some way to turn Nitrate into something
else that won't harm fish?

Well, you could try lots of plants,

I am giving that serious consideration, but then that enters a whole
new area of caring for plants as well. As until now I just have a
handful of plants and let them grow.

and slow filter.

What type?

My aquarium has a two filter system that I find works very well,
excluding the aspect of Nitrate control.

First of all this aquarium has an under gravel filter, which is
attached to a power head. This works very well in sucking waste
material into the gravel, where the bacteria does a very efficient job
with the NO2 to NO3 cycle.

This power head also does a great job of providing vast volumes of
oxygen (air) into the aquarium, which is why it is the main aspect for
keeping my aquarium in working order.

I have a second air system that I am soon to replace, when this weak
pump is just no good at getting air into the water depths.

My second filter is just one of those sponge types, which I let sit on
the gravel to one side, where of course on the gravel is where the
waste material is to be found.

That will contribute
toward reducing nitrates. You also add a denitrification filter. From
what I hear, they are a bit finicky though -- the the flow rate too high
and they do nothing, and get it too low, and they put hydrogen sulfate
into the water. (H2S is toxic.) But such a filter may not be a bad choice
given that you have high nitrate levels in your tap water.

Yes, where I have already come to the conclusion that I will need to
add one of these to my shopping list in the near future. When high
Nitrate levels in the tap water is a new thing for me.

I will certainly remember about the flow rate, but hopefully this is
not the case of replacing one problem with a worse problem.

Or you could use reverse osmosis water for all your water changes
(adding the appropriate salts to bring hardness up to what you want,
of course). But that's quite tedious process compared to just running
the garden hose into the tank.

My boiling method works great at softening my water and turning it
into what aquarium water should be, where only the remaining 50ppm
Nitrate levels is an issue.

My shopping list is currently...

5 x Hygrophila Polysperma
1 x Anubias Nana
3 x Crinium Thainium
5 x Microsorium Pteropus
5 x (Assorted) Cryptocorynes

The hygrophila would be your best bet as a nitrate remover.
It's quick-growing and fixes nitrates well. The anubias, java fern,
and the crypts will do their bit too, but not as effectively because
they are fairly slow-growing plants.

I will keep that I mind. I am soon to review my plant choice to make
fully sure that they are suitable, where the Hygrophila ones certainly
are after my quick check.

(I don't have experience with the Crinium.)

Well I just like the unusual nature of this plant, where it is a slow
growing plant that needs lots of space. So this is my exception to the
fast growing pack them together types that I would ideally need.

Another one you might want to consider is Vallisneria.

I already have one, when that was the one plant out of my random three
plant choice that did do well. So well that it is trying to take over
the surface of this small 20 gallon aquarium.

As I mentioned before that is why I am soon to move it to the 40
gallon aquarium, even if I have a feeling that like adding 10 bunches
of this plant for near out of control plant growth is the type of
Nitrate handling system that I need.

Still, I would desire to see my fish after this.

Good at removing nitrates and not easily infected by algae.

Very true, when it is my third plant that I cannot identify that is
suffering some kind of black algae covering to it's leafs. I tried
cleaning this off the other day, but it is suck on there very well.

This plant I am sure will benefit from my soon to be improved
lighting, when I would say that is what this plant is most lacking,
when it is suck in the middle of plant growth and plant death.

At any rate, lots of plants and few fish are likely to reduce nitrates
by quite a bit.

I would prefer more than a few fish and tackling Nitrate levels by all
available methods. I just hope that my White Mollies slow down on the
breeding, when two White Mollies to seven White Molllies over just a
few months gives me visions of what a couple of years worth can
produce.

And the plants will be happy with the nitrates -- it's
food :-) Keep the plants happy by adding traces (PMDD or some
such and CO2)

I had a feeling that you would mention CO2. :-/

At this time I am starting to use some Blue Trace plant supplement.

and you may well find your nitrate levels dropping
quite a bit.

I have a feeling that removing Nitrate from my water supply is my
current best method for keeping Nitrate levels under control. As I
still doubt that these plants will be able to fully deal with the
Nitrate production within this aquarium.

So having both a Nitrate Filter and plants would keep Nitrate levels
within acceptable values.

Thanks for your advice.

Cardman.
http://www.cardman.com
http://www.cardman.co.uk

A few general comments.

First off, while common knowledge is that "hardness is bad", there has
been evidence of supposedly acidic loving plants flourishing in hard water
in nature and in tanks. Do a Google search on this newsgroup's archives
and I'm sure you'll find many many articles on the matter. That being
said, I think that focusing on hardness was really the wrong thing to
focus on. Of all your water problems, it is the nitrates that are of the
biggest concern. Plus mollies traditionally like hard water, so even if
they aren't showing effects now, it might appear in the future. Also, most
of the plants on your list would be perfectly fine in your type of water
as I have most of them in my 20 dGH tanks.

Now, onto the nitrates. Many of those denitrafying systems depend on
setting up colonies of anaerobic bacteria which will fix the nitrate out
of the water. Of course, the downside is you have a potential biohazard
sitting in that loop should something go wrong if those anaerobic bacteria
are of the sulfur sort. Hydrogen sulfide coming from the tank is not only
unpleasant, it can also be potentially life threatening. This leads me to
find alternative ways to fix nitrate out of the water in my own tap
situation (only 20ppm from the tap for me).

Now, on to the solutions I pondered for my own nitrate situation. First, I
stopped drinking the tap water. Nitrates are as bad for humans as they are
for fish. Then I considered an RO unit for both drinking water and
cutting the tap water on water changes, but being a poor student I really
didn't want to go that route. Bottled drinking water is plentiful in this
area, so I went with that for me, but it's a tad expensive for the fish.

For my tanks, I considered two approaches to removing the nitrates. One
was a vegetative filter. In this concept, you run the tank water through a
system with terrestrial, aquatic or bog plants planted in it. Of course,
you provide plenty of light overhead for them to grow rapidly. Many house
plants adapt well to growing in a hydroponic situation (roots in water)
and there are several which were said to be good at fixing nitrates, like
pothos/creeping charlie. Unfortunately, those house plants also happen to
be toxic to cats and I have cats who like to nibble plants, so I couldn't
go that route. Another plant said to be good was water lettuce, but I
can't find that locally (I believe it's listed as a "noxious plant" here
and therefore illegal to sell).

The second option was to heavily plant the tank with aquatic plants. I
went this route with also a heavy tolerance towards algae. Most of my new
tanks are algae wastelands to begin with but you know what? That green
string algae is great at taking up nitrates. Just a pain to pull out every
week, but it did a good job. If I could figure out how to keep it
contained, I'd set up a vegatative filter with just it. After a while, the
tank seems to reach a sort of equilibrium where the plants are better at
sopping up the new nitrates than the algae, then my algae problems
decrease to nearly nil. My similis tank took the longest to reach this
point, but that was mostly due to the similis digging up every plant
except the amazon sword, apogogeton bulbs and a few crypts that escaped
their destructive rearranging.

A few general comments.

First off, while common knowledge is that "hardness is bad", there has
been evidence of supposedly acidic loving plants flourishing in hard water
in nature and in tanks. Do a Google search on this newsgroup's archives
and I'm sure you'll find many many articles on the matter. That being
said, I think that focusing on hardness was really the wrong thing to
focus on. Of all your water problems, it is the nitrates that are of the
biggest concern. Plus mollies traditionally like hard water, so even if
they aren't showing effects now, it might appear in the future. Also, most
of the plants on your list would be perfectly fine in your type of water
as I have most of them in my 20 dGH tanks.

Now, onto the nitrates. Many of those denitrafying systems depend on
setting up colonies of anaerobic bacteria which will fix the nitrate out
of the water. Of course, the downside is you have a potential biohazard
sitting in that loop should something go wrong if those anaerobic bacteria
are of the sulfur sort. Hydrogen sulfide coming from the tank is not only
unpleasant, it can also be potentially life threatening. This leads me to
find alternative ways to fix nitrate out of the water in my own tap
situation (only 20ppm from the tap for me).

Now, on to the solutions I pondered for my own nitrate situation. First, I
stopped drinking the tap water. Nitrates are as bad for humans as they are
for fish. Then I considered an RO unit for both drinking water and
cutting the tap water on water changes, but being a poor student I really
didn't want to go that route. Bottled drinking water is plentiful in this
area, so I went with that for me, but it's a tad expensive for the fish.

For my tanks, I considered two approaches to removing the nitrates. One
was a vegetative filter. In this concept, you run the tank water through a
system with terrestrial, aquatic or bog plants planted in it. Of course,
you provide plenty of light overhead for them to grow rapidly. Many house
plants adapt well to growing in a hydroponic situation (roots in water)
and there are several which were said to be good at fixing nitrates, like
pothos/creeping charlie. Unfortunately, those house plants also happen to
be toxic to cats and I have cats who like to nibble plants, so I couldn't
go that route. Another plant said to be good was water lettuce, but I
can't find that locally (I believe it's listed as a "noxious plant" here
and therefore illegal to sell).

The second option was to heavily plant the tank with aquatic plants. I
went this route with also a heavy tolerance towards algae. Most of my new
tanks are algae wastelands to begin with but you know what? That green
string algae is great at taking up nitrates. Just a pain to pull out every
week, but it did a good job. If I could figure out how to keep it
contained, I'd set up a vegatative filter with just it. After a while, the
tank seems to reach a sort of equilibrium where the plants are better at
sopping up the new nitrates than the algae, then my algae problems
decrease to nearly nil. My similis tank took the longest to reach this
point, but that was mostly due to the similis digging up every plant
except the amazon sword, apogogeton bulbs and a few crypts that escaped
their destructive rearranging.

On Mon, 5 Apr 2004 22:09:19 +1000, "Graham Broadbridge"
wrote:

"Cardman" wrote in message
.. .

BTW -- you should try to get those nitrate levels down. 100ppm is
definitely on the very high side where it will be toxic for at least some
fish species.

My fish can live in much higher levels perfectly fine, where they just
become unhappy in a world where algae rules. So they are very happy
with anything between 50 and 150 mg/l, when algae growth is very slow
at this level.

100 ppm NO3 is extremely toxic for freshwater fish, but of course any animal
can acclimatize to unsavoury conditions given time.

Well, even had I replaced totally all the water, then Nitrate levels
would exceed 100ppm in about a week.

In rare occasions when I am just two occupied with other things, then
it is algae that controls my Nitrate levels by explosive algae growth.

I'm not surprised that
algae growth is slow at 100 ppm Nitrates. Algae is opportunistic and will
find a better environment or hibernate.

Currently I manually remove it as much as possible.

A nice idea, but what you do not mention is that plants in fact use up
very little Nitrate, which is why I would have to bed plants very
heavily for any beneficial effects.

Plants use a lot of NO3 here. Given that your nitrate levels exceed 100ppm
I'm not surprised that you see no NO3 consumption.

My problem I am sure is half due to the Nitrate levels in my tap water
followed by more than a few fish in the aquarium.

The poor plants have no chance to even get started.

My plant problem is more a case of unsuitable plants for my former
water conditions and lighting, when those plants that are suitable do
very well.

Their problem then is mostly an algae one, where my Goldfish Weed is a
favoured sticking point for algae. And since this is difficult to
remove, then often some of the plant is removed with it.

I still have some of this plant growing in my tank, but either I need
to get algae and Nitrate levels in better control, or my new plants
will need to be algae resistant.

I'd suggest you reduce nitrate from your tap water to start with.

Yes, where now that I am aware that there is high levels of Nitrate in
my tap water, then so can I do something about it.

Keeping a good aquarium is all about such knowledge.

Cardman
http://www.cardman.com
http://www.cardman.co.uk

"Cardman" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 05 Apr 2004 13:41:35 GMT, "Michi Henning"
wrote:


Well, you could try lots of plants,

I am giving that serious consideration, but then that enters a whole
new area of caring for plants as well. As until now I just have a
handful of plants and let them grow.

and slow filter.

What type?

I run two filters, an Eheim 2128 canister and an Eheim 2012
internal one. The canister is rumoured to contribute to nitrate
removal. Apparently, sintered glass contains enough small
pores for some anearobic bacteria to break down nitrates.
I personally don't know how much credibility this explanation
really has. But I know that other fishkeepers and some people
at my LFS who've been keeping fish for longer than I have
been alive confirm that slower filters are linked to lower nitrate
levels. For nitrate breakdown to happen, you need anaerobic
areas in the filter, so the slow filter theory makes sense at
least from that angle.

That will contribute
toward reducing nitrates. You also add a denitrification filter. From
what I hear, they are a bit finicky though -- the the flow rate too high
and they do nothing, and get it too low, and they put hydrogen sulfate
into the water. (H2S is toxic.) But such a filter may not be a bad choice
given that you have high nitrate levels in your tap water.

Yes, where I have already come to the conclusion that I will need to
add one of these to my shopping list in the near future. When high
Nitrate levels in the tap water is a new thing for me.

Aqua Medic make a rather nifty one. My LFS uses one of those for
a large marine tank. And he told me that you needn't buy the special
bio balls they sell you. Pure sulfur can be had cheaply from chemical
suppliers and does the job just as well.

Good at removing nitrates and not easily infected by algae.

Very true, when it is my third plant that I cannot identify that is
suffering some kind of black algae covering to it's leafs. I tried
cleaning this off the other day, but it is suck on there very well.

Sounds like black brush algae. See
http://www.aquaticscape.com/articles/algae.htm
for some pictures.

I had a feeling that you would mention CO2. :-/

Naturally! :-)

I have a feeling that removing Nitrate from my water supply is my
current best method for keeping Nitrate levels under control. As I
still doubt that these plants will be able to fully deal with the
Nitrate production within this aquarium.

A reverse osmosis unit really might be a good way to go. They are not
that expensive -- around US $130.00 here in Australia, and they do
a perfect job of removing the nitrates (as well as all other salts).

Cheers,

Michi.

--
Michi Henning Ph: +61 4 1118-2700
ZeroC, Inc. http://www.zeroc.com