Sir Douglas Cook wrote:
Summary

I have learned that those of you that have over 10 years experience
in this area find that CO2 is wonderful.

I'm less than 10 years in this hobby, and think CO2 is a Good Thing if
you've got a lot of plants.

That's great, although a free CO2 pump made from a pop bottle is
to much work, it still works for those that are unsure of the advantages
of CO2 mixed in their aquarium.

I decided the DIY CO2 was too risky initially (blowing yeast mix into
the tank or exploding the bottle) and went for a manual-fill CO2 chamber
from small compressed cylinder (not one of the big regulator-type
constantly bubbling systems - way too expensive).

I have also said for the beginner that it might be safer
for them to learn how to use CO2 on a Plant only tank
for reason stated above.

Agree, or go the route I did, with a Floramat system.


I do have a question for you.
If fish and there waste produce CO2,
Why don't you just add more fish?

Filter may not take the fish waste load.


I assume the reason is fish produce CO2 and ammonia and a
CO2 pump or supply only produces CO2.


Yep. If you have a lot of plants and a lot of fish, then the size of
filter goes up due to the fish load. You could have a lot of plants and
just a couple of fish, but that'd still not make a difference to the
requirement to have CO2 (if you want good strong thriving plants).

I know this sounds like a dumb question,
But, its seems the more I learn the more questions
I have.

Questions are great. I asked loads when I was starting out with my live
plants. Now, I'd not have a tank without plants. Previous attempts all
failed, but I have:

Upgraded the lights
Added CO2
Add plant food
Removed the UG and gone to external canister (internals mean uprooted
plants at maint time)

I probably have more fish in the tank than previously, partly due to
bigger filtration capabilities but also due to the heavy planting
(territories are smaller due to plant cover for a start).

For me, the most noticeable change was after I added the CO2. It's not
a lot going in, and is patchy some days depending on how much I'm around
to top it up.

Plants grow like mad and I end up with a damp jungle some times rather
than a fishtank. Of course, if I back off to try and get the plant
growth rate down, they don't thrive - it's a case that I'm making them
fit in a smaller environment than they'd have in the wild, so frequent
pruning goes on.

Fish love the plants.


Thank you all for your time, and efforts.
Sir Douglas Cook

http://www.greyspace.bravehostNOSPAM.com/
Remove "NOSPAM" for correct address
London Ontario Canada
Aquarium Maintenance Man for Hire

You're welcome :-)

--


Velvet

Sir Douglas Cook wrote:

I do have a question for you.
If fish and there waste produce CO2,
Why don't you just add more fish?


The CO2 added by the fish is small compared to levels needed for
"triving plants."

(Which, with even a little thought, means you're in an unnatural
equilbrium, but I'm not gonna go there...)

-Donald
--
"A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy
enough people to make it worth the effort." -Herm Albright

Donald K wrote:

Sir Douglas Cook wrote:


I do have a question for you.
If fish and there waste produce CO2,
Why don't you just add more fish?



The CO2 added by the fish is small compared to levels needed for
"triving plants."

(Which, with even a little thought, means you're in an unnatural
equilbrium, but I'm not gonna go there...)

-Donald

Ah, but thriving plants have a positive effect on the fish I've found -
they help reduce nitr?tes (I can never remember which is the last one in
the ammonia cycle), which means the tank (or at least mine) spends most
of it's time needing very little input from me. I do a water change
every few months, not every other week, for example. No algae problems
these days, no fish problems, everything's healthy, my pair of angels
are breeding in a community tank and raising to free-swimming fry stage
(they're still learning so each batch gets another day or two further
along the cycle before the parents presumably turn into cannibals and
recycle the protein!).

I seriously doubt I'd have a pair of angels breeding in the tank if
there was something nasty going on (not pure wild angels I'll add
though) or the water params were out of whack.

B.P. (Before Plants) it was a constant struggle against algae, frequent
water changes, fish weren't as brightly coloured and I battled with
occasional instances of disease that would randomly crop up (without new
fish being added).

I take the view that the CO2 means I can grow the plants that will
contribute to a better environment for the fish than a purely visual
improvement. I'd much rather add the CO2 (small hassle, small cost)
than go back to battling with algae and much more frequent water changes.

At some point I'd love to go for a completely self-contained system, no
filtration, fish and plants, natural lighting only, etc etc, but then I
realise there's only one way to do that, and that's to Walk Outside ;-)


--


Velvet

I also have used the pop-bottle CO2. I didn't find it a problem and wasn't
worried about filling the tank with backwash of yeast etc. I was very
careful and did it wisely. The tank was very lush and I grew so many plants
that they had to be thinned weekly and the extras were sold/traded at a
local fish store. Mike
"Sir Douglas Cook" wrote in message
...
Summary

I have learned that those of you that have over 10 years experience
in this area find that CO2 is wonderful.
That's great, although a free CO2 pump made from a pop bottle is
to much work, it still works for those that are unsure of the advantages
of CO2 mixed in their aquarium.
I have also said for the beginner that it might be safer
for them to learn how to use CO2 on a Plant only tank
for reason stated above.

I do have a question for you.
If fish and there waste produce CO2,
Why don't you just add more fish?

I assume the reason is fish produce CO2 and ammonia and a
CO2 pump or supply only produces CO2.

I know this sounds like a dumb question,
But, its seems the more I learn the more questions
I have.

Thank you all for your time, and efforts.
Sir Douglas Cook

http://www.greyspace.bravehostNOSPAM.com/
Remove "NOSPAM" for correct address
London Ontario Canada
Aquarium Maintenance Man for Hire


"Velvet" wrote in message
...
Sir Douglas Cook wrote:

I really enjoyed visiting your website http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua
although I would like to chatt about the difference between beautiful
planted aquariums and beautiful planted aquariums with a CO2 pump
and Fishkeeping.

"Chuck Gadd" wrote in message
news
On Tue, 18 May 2004 18:38:02 -0700, "Sir Douglas Cook"
wrote:


Co2 pump are so easy to make why would anyone pay for
one???????????????

Yeast CO2 systems do provide as stable a source of CO2. Additionally,
they require much more time and effort. With a compressed gas CO2
system, you can set it, and not touch it for a year or more. The
price of yeast and sugar isn't free. I pay $10.00 for over a year
worth of CO2 for my 75g tank. To do that with a yeast system would
require several 2L bottles, and constant work mixing and changing
them.


I am just suggesting that just one person out there might just want
to try this "FREE" CO2 PUMP before they fork out the cash.

Since I add baking soda one 2L bottle will last over a month,
and after all my homemade CO2 filter is simple to make and
did I say "FREE", "FREE", "FREE".
The nice part about it is most of my friends that have CO2 pumps
said to me that "If only they tried my method first they wouldn't have
bought a C02 pump" because they care about their fish primarily.

But, since they own it they have setup another tank with the CO2
which is ONLY used for plants. Now that make sense.

You won't read anywhere that MORE CO2 is needed BY THE FISH
in an aquarium!!!!!!


your undergravel filter where there is lots of surface area for the
gas

to

exchange.

The buildup of CO2 in the UGF would probably negatively effect the
bacteria that are critical for proper UGF operation.


That's what they tell you, although it does work well with UGF.
Keep in mind that if you mix CO2 in the upper part of the tank
you are in fact drawing the waste and the CO2 through the
UGF (Under Gravel Filter), Right.
And since I mix the CO2 after the UGF as the water flow in downward
(most/more) of the CO2 is used by the plants before it gets to the
UGF.

It is funny to me, that the reason that I put the CO2 after the
UGF is the same reason that you dispute it!

Please read on.


care, if at all. Remember that high CO2 levels may reduce the oxygen

uptake

of the water and lead to a risk of hypoxia in the fish, especially if
the

Completely false at levels encountered in our aquariums. CO2 levels
elevated to the levels used for planted aquaria (40ppm max) will not
prevent any absorption of O2.


Wrong, it make sense that 40ppm could be oxygen which is replaced
with CO2. As stated above.


Additionally, when used correctly in a planted aquarium, with high
lighting, lots of plants, and CO2 injection, the plants photosynthesis
rate will be high enough to drive the O2 level over 100% during the
day. This is a cause of the "pearling" often seen in a healthy
planted tank. O2 bubbles are released into the water, because the
water cannot absorb any more.


Cannot absorb any more oxygen,,, Thank you for pointing that out.
Your right again, 40ppm is the CO2 that has attached itself to the
water making it impossible for the Water to accept the 40ppm of the
new oxygen.


In regular non-planted aquarium, using airstones or powerheads for
water movement/aeration, typical O2 levels are around 75%. In a
health CO2 injected planted tank, the O2 levels are over 100% during
the day, and during the night, only fall to 80% or so.



Are you telling me that the plant give off so much oxygen that your
water
is 100%, that's like pure H2O, Wow, that's sounds impressive!

I better tell my science teacher, that a planted aquarium with a
CO2 pump using the same hardware and equipment has more Oxygen at
night!
He would be so proud of me. ;-)

It is not only my opinion but it is the opinion of
Mary Bailey and Peter Burgess as I QUOTED their book
Tropical Fishlopaedia
Mary Bailey has kept tropical fish for more than 25 years, and is
known
INTERNATIONALLY AS AN EXPERT on the cichlid family. She has
written several fishkeeping books, and the English editor of
AQUA GEOGRAPHIA MAGAZINE. She also contributor to
and CO-EDITOR of, the cichlids yearbook series.

And

you my friend are disputing with

A

Dr. Peter Burgess BSc MSc Mphil PhD,

Is a "FISH HEALTH SCIENTIST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!",
with more than 25 years' experience as an aquarist. An
author of numerous articles and scientific papers on fishkeeping,
he is editor of the
INTERNATIONAL JOURNAL AQUARIUM SCIENCES AND CONSERVATION!
A visiting lecturer in aquarium sciences, he is also an INTERNATIONAL
consultant to the aquarium fish industry.

Can you tell me about your background?
I can tell your information didn't come directly off of the CO2 Pumps
box.
But, for the listeners,,, Let them know strong your knowledge is.



dioxide, making the CO2 injection a rather pointless exercise! CO2

injection

should always be turned off at night - When the plants do not need
it."

Tom Barr recently published some university studies that showed that
algae is better able to handle fluxuating CO2 levels better than
higher plants. So by constantly having the CO2 level rise and fall,
you are giving the algae a slight advantage over the plants.


Ok, great Tom has confirmed that even plants have a hard time with
fluxuating CO2.

And you want to put that into your FISH tank!


The only possible reason I see to turn off CO2 at night is to save the
cost of the CO2. But when I pay just $10.00 for more than a year, I
can't see adding the cost of a solenoid and timer to switch the CO2 on
and off. It would take decades to make up the cost.


Or simply keep your CO2 pump with your "Plants Only tank"

I must say I have visited http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua and
I was very, very impressed by your web site, you are a person that
I do respect. Your planted tanks and catfish information was
overwhelming.
I will visit your page again.

I would like to add your link to my page for those in search of
the perfect aquarium.



Chuck Gadd
http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua




I have CO2 on my tank, and the plants love it. It's a hand-injected
system, so the CO2 goes in as and when I remember to do it.

I've carefully monitored my tank for problems overnight before the
plants kick back into photosynth in the day, and not seen any signs of
O2 depletion at all.

That's whether or not I give it another squirt of CO2 last thing at
night, or not.

Sometimes I get pearling, sometimes I don't. Currently, the plants are
suffering due to a faulty heaterstat (now replaced) which drove the temp
higher than they could tolerate, and I need to replace the tubes in the
lights.

Fish all doing wonderfully well - breeding pair of angels in a 28? us
gal tank, along with umpteen community fish (inc a betta and two pearl
gourami). I think much depends on *how much* CO2 is being injected into
the tank. Anyone with half a brain would have monitored both plant
growth and fish health and adjusted the CO2 to suit. It takes very
little CO2 to increase the plant health/growth.

Personally, yes, I would move to a 24/7 system at some point, if I could
justify it. Home-made yeast brews are too time consuming and run the
risk of dumping into the tank if it goes wrong (or exploding). Don't
see any reason why careful tailoring of the CO2 levels would be any
different to what I currently have.

--


Velvet

On Wed, 19 May 2004 09:24:16 -0700, "Sir Douglas Cook"
wrote:

I really enjoyed visiting your website http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua
although I would like to chatt about the difference between beautiful
planted aquariums and beautiful planted aquariums with a CO2 pump
and Fishkeeping.

Not sure what you mean here, by all my tanks are PLANTED fish tanks.
And the first are my first concern. I've got rainbows and cories that
I can't stop from breeding.
Completely false at levels encountered in our aquariums. CO2 levels
elevated to the levels used for planted aquaria (40ppm max) will not
prevent any absorption of O2.

Wrong, it make sense that 40ppm could be oxygen which is replaced
with CO2. As stated above.

No, decreasing the CO2 level will not allow more O2 to dissolve into
the water. It just doesn't work that way.

Cannot absorb any more oxygen,,, Thank you for pointing that out.
Your right again, 40ppm is the CO2 that has attached itself to the

You keep trying, but this is NOT the case. It is a common
misconception that water can hold only so much
dissolved gas and adding CO2 will displace oxygen.





Chuck Gadd
http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua

On Wed, 19 May 2004 09:24:16 -0700, "Sir Douglas Cook"
wrote:

Ok, great Tom has confirmed that even plants have a hard time with
fluxuating CO2.

And you want to put that into your FISH tank!

Luckily for us, fish don't use the CO2. So they don't mind the
fluxuation.


Chuck Gadd
http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua

On Wed, 19 May 2004 10:03:45 -0700, "Sir Douglas Cook"
wrote:

Everywhere I go I find another reason not to add
an CO2 pump to my aquarium tank.

Please don't. Otherwise, when anything goes wrong, you will simply
blame the "CO2 pump".

http://fins.actwin.com/aquatic-plant.../msg00212.html

In that case, it was most likely that the person, using a yeast system
to generate CO2, had the yeast mixture enter the tank. The yeast
mixture pollutes the water, the yeast growing consumes oxygen, etc.

This can happen in several cases:

1) The bottle gets knocked over. Usually by a small child or a pet.

2) When mixing up a yeast mixture, it's common to use very warm water
to properly activate the yeast. If you prepare the mix, and cap the
bottle and connect it right away, you might have problems. The
cooling mixture will contract, drawing water from the tank backwards
thru the CO2 line. This raises the water level in the yeast bottle,
and when the yeast starts really producing CO2, the now higher water
level allows the mixture to get pushed up the CO2 line into the tank.

In either case, lots of water changes can normally save the fish as
long as it's detected soon enough.





Chuck Gadd
http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua

On Wed, 19 May 2004 09:24:16 -0700, "Sir Douglas Cook"
wrote:

Completely false at levels encountered in our aquariums. CO2 levels
elevated to the levels used for planted aquaria (40ppm max) will not
prevent any absorption of O2.

Wrong, it make sense that 40ppm could be oxygen which is replaced
with CO2. As stated above.

It might "make sense" but it's not true. Changing the amount of CO2
won't alter the solubility of O2 in water.

I'm pretty sure you are really just trolling, and not actually trying
to debate or learn. If you are open to actual facts, and not just
spouting what acronyms various people have after than names, here is a
link that hopefully will help.


http://webusers.xula.edu/cdoumen/CAP/Oxygen2.html

About half way down the page, the section is labelled WATER:

-----------------------------------------------
The amount of gas dissolved is dependent on

* nature of the gas
* pressure of the gas in the surrounding medium (air)
* solubilty coefficient of the gas which is dependent in turn on
o temperature
o salinity

The solubility of a gas in water is expressed in Henry's Law

C = A. P/760 = A. % gas in air/100

where

* C = concentration in ml/L
* P = partial pressure of the gas
* A = solubiltiy coefficient
-----------------------

Note that the amount of CO2 in the water is not one of the factors in
the solubility of O2 in water.

Additionally, water CAN hold 30 times more CO2 than O2. It won't
usually have those levels, since the partial pressure of CO2 in air is
much less than the partial pressure of O2 in air.



Chuck Gadd
http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua

On 19 May 2004 08:57:56 -0700, (Giancarlo Podio)
wrote:

In my experience, unless you are keeping a low KH there is really no
need to turn CO2 off at night. In most tanks, the biggest loss of CO2
is not presented by the plants, it's from gas exchange, and this
doesn't stop at night.

I've seen exactly the same thing.

and a PH controller would be wonderful in those situations, but with a
KH of around 3-4 or higher you shouldn't have any problems with PH
swings during the night from CO2.

In fact, I've measured a larger pH swing when turning off CO2 at
night.


Chuck Gadd
http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua

On Mon, 24 May 2004 19:26:35 -0600, Chuck Gadd wrote:

although I would like to chatt about the difference between beautiful
planted aquariums and beautiful planted aquariums with a CO2 pump
and Fishkeeping.

Not sure what you mean here, by all my tanks are PLANTED fish tanks.
And the first are my first concern. I've got rainbows and cories that
I can't stop from breeding.

Dang, I've got to slow down. Brain was moving faster than my
fingers...

Not sure what you mean here. All my tanks are PLANTED fish tanks.
And the fish are my first concern.



Chuck Gadd
http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua

On Wed, 19 May 2004 09:24:16 -0700, "Sir Douglas Cook"
wrote:

In regular non-planted aquarium, using airstones or powerheads for
water movement/aeration, typical O2 levels are around 75%. In a
health CO2 injected planted tank, the O2 levels are over 100% during
the day, and during the night, only fall to 80% or so.

Are you telling me that the plant give off so much oxygen that your water
is 100%, that's like pure H2O, Wow, that's sounds impressive!

This is the sort of comment that makes me think you are simply
trolling.

My statement was that O2 levels are over 100%. That means that the
water is holding 100% of the total amount of O2 that can possibly be
dissolved into the water. It doesn't mean the water is 100% H20.
Back to science class for you.

I better tell my science teacher, that a planted aquarium with a
CO2 pump using the same hardware and equipment has more Oxygen at night!
He would be so proud of me. ;-)

If your science teacher doesn't understand photosynthesis, he's not
much of a teacher.


Chuck Gadd
http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua

Sorry,,, I was a DIY CO2... but I bet you didn't go to the link provided...
But in it you would find quote::

I am using DIY C02, with jello, fed into a filter.
I've used this many times before and this particular
bottle had been bubbling successfully for over a week,
with no problem. For a reason I can't understand, it
suddenly bubbled over into the tank sometime during
the night. Although there was red jello residue
throughout the whole air line, the tank had very
slight brownish residue, with no sign of red. Upon
waking I found my fish dead.
End Quote

But, even though, since I have had so much feed back
I will one day get a CO2 pump...
When my knownledge gets strong enough
I'll be able to use a CO2 pump wisely.

--
Sir Douglas Cook

http://www.greyspace.bravehostNOSPAM.com/
Remove "NOSPAM" for correct address
London Ontario Canada
Aquarium Maintenance Man for Hire


"Chuck Gadd" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 19 May 2004 10:03:45 -0700, "Sir Douglas Cook"
wrote:

Everywhere I go I find another reason not to add
an CO2 pump to my aquarium tank.

Please don't. Otherwise, when anything goes wrong, you will simply
blame the "CO2 pump".

http://fins.actwin.com/aquatic-plant.../msg00212.html

In that case, it was most likely that the person, using a yeast system
to generate CO2, had the yeast mixture enter the tank. The yeast
mixture pollutes the water, the yeast growing consumes oxygen, etc.

This can happen in several cases:

1) The bottle gets knocked over. Usually by a small child or a pet.

2) When mixing up a yeast mixture, it's common to use very warm water
to properly activate the yeast. If you prepare the mix, and cap the
bottle and connect it right away, you might have problems. The
cooling mixture will contract, drawing water from the tank backwards
thru the CO2 line. This raises the water level in the yeast bottle,
and when the yeast starts really producing CO2, the now higher water
level allows the mixture to get pushed up the CO2 line into the tank.

In either case, lots of water changes can normally save the fish as
long as it's detected soon enough.





Chuck Gadd
http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua

I am trying to learn,,,
But, It has slowly turned into a debate which
I find is interesting if it brings me more knowledge.
And I thank you all, even you Mr. C Gadd.
http://webusers.xula.edu/cdoumen/CAP/Oxygen2.html
Although, this assignment paper doesn't prove that water
can take more or less Oxygen regardless of CO2 levels.

But, I must say this topic went far off of its intended
direction.

In the beginning my starting post just offer a free CO2
pump for those that wanted to try it.

And it turned into a debate about
how bad a free CO2 pump can be,,,
and then a debate about turning CO2 pump off at night
which I learned that PH swings would be hard on the fish,,,
All in all I have learn all that I need to know for now.

Only because I don't want to be accused of "trolling".

Although when I learn more about HOW CO2
affects the PH, I'll one day put the CO2 back
on to my six tanks.

Bye for now,

Sir Douglas Cook

http://www.greyspace.bravehostNOSPAM.com/
Remove "NOSPAM" for correct address
London Ontario Canada
Aquarium Maintenance Man for Hire


"Chuck Gadd" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 19 May 2004 09:24:16 -0700, "Sir Douglas Cook"
wrote:

Completely false at levels encountered in our aquariums. CO2 levels
elevated to the levels used for planted aquaria (40ppm max) will not
prevent any absorption of O2.

Wrong, it make sense that 40ppm could be oxygen which is replaced
with CO2. As stated above.

It might "make sense" but it's not true. Changing the amount of CO2
won't alter the solubility of O2 in water.

I'm pretty sure you are really just trolling, and not actually trying
to debate or learn. If you are open to actual facts, and not just
spouting what acronyms various people have after than names, here is a
link that hopefully will help.


http://webusers.xula.edu/cdoumen/CAP/Oxygen2.html

About half way down the page, the section is labelled WATER:

-----------------------------------------------
The amount of gas dissolved is dependent on

* nature of the gas
* pressure of the gas in the surrounding medium (air)
* solubilty coefficient of the gas which is dependent in turn on
o temperature
o salinity

The solubility of a gas in water is expressed in Henry's Law

C = A. P/760 = A. % gas in air/100

where

* C = concentration in ml/L
* P = partial pressure of the gas
* A = solubiltiy coefficient
-----------------------

Note that the amount of CO2 in the water is not one of the factors in
the solubility of O2 in water.

Additionally, water CAN hold 30 times more CO2 than O2. It won't
usually have those levels, since the partial pressure of CO2 in air is
much less than the partial pressure of O2 in air.



Chuck Gadd
http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua

Sir Douglas Cook wrote:

Sorry,,, I was a DIY CO2... but I bet you didn't go to the link provided...
But in it you would find quote::


I am using DIY C02, with jello, fed into a filter.
I've used this many times before and this particular
bottle had been bubbling successfully for over a week,
with no problem. For a reason I can't understand, it
suddenly bubbled over into the tank sometime during
the night. Although there was red jello residue
throughout the whole air line, the tank had very
slight brownish residue, with no sign of red. Upon
waking I found my fish dead.

End Quote

But, even though, since I have had so much feed back
I will one day get a CO2 pump...
When my knownledge gets strong enough
I'll be able to use a CO2 pump wisely.


Try a small version of it. Like the Floramat system. You push CO2 from
a compressed can (disposable) using a button on the top, to fill a
chamber, that sits in the tank, with water passing across (either
open-bottomed, like a bell, or with air pump moving water in and up and
out past the CO2). The chamber empties of CO2 as it's absorbed into the
water (and the tank) and you refill as and when, depending on how much
CO2 you want.

That can, however, be multiple times a day if you have a lot of strongly
growing plants (and want to keep them that way) - or for less demanding
plants, just twice a day.

Never any risk of CO2 yeast mix getting into the tank (it's compressed
CO2 can), no risk of needle-valve getting stuck or regulator failure and
blowing the whole lot into the tank, etc etc.

Great way to start out with CO2 IMO. Yes the cans need replacing, but
they're not *that* expensive, and it's a whole lot less hassle - and
worry-free, than compared with DIY CO2, and a damn sight cheaper than a
full-blown CO2 system.

--


Velvet

Oh, come on... didn't mean to get your panties in a bunch.... Sir...

First!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
you can't take anything I say too seriously....

Second!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
you can't take yourself too seriously either...

Third!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
thanks, but no thanks on the education...

Last but not least... I've had CO2 on my tank for several years... I need no
education... you may have many more years of experience, that isn't the
point... The point is, it's unnecessary to turn off your CO2 at night....
years of hobby experience has shown no adverse effects of running it 24/7...
you can debate that until you're green in the face, it matters not...

have a great day...

--
RedForeman ©® future fabricator and creator of a ratbike
streetfighter!!! ==========================
2003 TRX450ES
1992 TRX-350 XX (For Sale)
'98 Tacoma Ext Cab 4X4 Lifted....
==========================
ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤° `°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø


is that better??