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#1
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Substrate heater installation?
I have a 20w Tunze substrate heater. I planned to put a layer of tiny gravel around it, then Fluorite on top, then some more gravel. Maybe I could pack Fluorite around the heater then gravel on top? (A response on this NG told me it should be 50/50 Fluorite/gravel, which I guess I'll stick too.) |
#2
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Substrate heater installation?
Hi Adam,
(A response on this NG told me it should be 50/50 Fluorite/gravel, which I guess I'll stick too.) 100% Fluorite is even better, but of course more expensive. I have a 20w Tunze substrate heater. I don't know about that particular one but I have heard a lot of people say their substrate heaters didn't last very long. Mine lasted only a few weeks. I suspect substrate heaters are of no real benefit to a planted aquarium where the whole bottom is covered with plant routes anyway. -- Regards, Marvin Hlavac Toronto, Canada |
#3
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Substrate heater installation?
Adam Gottschalk wrote:
I have a 20w Tunze substrate heater. I planned to put a layer of tiny gravel around it, then Fluorite on top, then some more gravel. Maybe I could pack Fluorite around the heater then gravel on top? (A response on this NG told me it should be 50/50 Fluorite/gravel, which I guess I'll stick too.) If you could return the heater and buy more Flourite, you'd probably be happier... |
#4
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Substrate heater installation?
"Marvin Hlavac groups: rec.aquaria.freshwater.plants" X@X. wrote in
message news Hi Adam, (A response on this NG told me it should be 50/50 Fluorite/gravel, which I guess I'll stick too.) 100% Fluorite is even better, but of course more expensive. I have a 20w Tunze substrate heater. I don't know about that particular one but I have heard a lot of people say their substrate heaters didn't last very long. Mine lasted only a few weeks. I suspect substrate heaters are of no real benefit to a planted aquarium where the whole bottom is covered with plant routes anyway. -- Regards, Marvin Hlavac Toronto, Canada Substrate heaters are supposed to be of long term benefit. They won't make your plants grow faster, better, or nicer. But they will allow you to grow them for many many years without getting a stale substrate. Harry |
#5
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Substrate heater installation?
In article ,
"Harry Muscle" wrote: Substrate heaters are supposed to be of long term benefit. They won't make your plants grow faster, better, or nicer. But they will allow you to grow them for many many years without getting a stale substrate. Thanks for that. I have read in several books now about the use of substrate heaters. In addition, I'm the type of person who reasons any given thing out before acting. It makes very clear sense that, in trying to mimic a natural environment as much as possible, you would like to provide some moderate constant heat in the base, the "earth". And that just on the face of it. In detail, substrate heaters, I'm told, create little eddies of upcurrent or something, helping to provide circulation throughout the substrate. |
#6
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Substrate heater installation?
Substrate heaters are supposed to be of long term benefit. They won't
make your plants grow faster, better, or nicer. But they will allow you to grow them for many many years without getting a stale substrate. Thanks for that. I have read in several books now about the use of substrate heaters. In addition, I'm the type of person who reasons any given thing out before acting. It makes very clear sense that, in trying to mimic a natural environment as much as possible, you would like to provide some moderate constant heat in the base, the "earth". And that just on the face of it. In detail, substrate heaters, I'm told, create little eddies of upcurrent or something, helping to provide circulation throughout the substrate. Don't take my word for it, this is just one person's opinion without scientific experiments :-) but my guess is that substrate heaters may help in a non-planted aquarium or even in a newly planted one. However, once roots spread all over the fish tanks bottom most likely the benefit is nil. -- Regards, Marvin Hlavac Toronto, Canada |
#7
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Substrate heater installation?
**** Post for FREE via your newsreader at post.usenet.com ****
My personal experience with substrate heater is very positive. In Hong Kong, most hobbists prefer ADA's AquaSoil for their planted tanks, the down side of ADA's Aqua Soil is that they don't last very long, they tend to break up and the substrate would become obviously degraded in about 1 - 2 years. When I set up my 30 Gal a few years back, I got a cheap Rena substrate heater just to try out the benefit of substrate heater, and up to now my 30 gal is running perfectly fine without any sign of degrading. I am now setting up a 200 gal, although I will give Flourite a go instead of ADA's Aqua Soil, but I would still go for a substrate heater, only this time is a more expensive low voltage model. Cheers Kenneth "Marvin Hlavac" ¦b¶l¥ó e.rogers.com ¤¤¼¶¼g... Substrate heaters are supposed to be of long term benefit. They won't make your plants grow faster, better, or nicer. But they will allow you to grow them for many many years without getting a stale substrate. Thanks for that. I have read in several books now about the use of substrate heaters. In addition, I'm the type of person who reasons any given thing out before acting. It makes very clear sense that, in trying to mimic a natural environment as much as possible, you would like to provide some moderate constant heat in the base, the "earth". And that just on the face of it. In detail, substrate heaters, I'm told, create little eddies of upcurrent or something, helping to provide circulation throughout the substrate. Don't take my word for it, this is just one person's opinion without scientific experiments :-) but my guess is that substrate heaters may help in a non-planted aquarium or even in a newly planted one. However, once roots spread all over the fish tanks bottom most likely the benefit is nil. -- Regards, Marvin Hlavac Toronto, Canada -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= *** Usenet.com - The #1 Usenet Newsgroup Service on The Planet! *** http://www.usenet.com Unlimited Download - 19 Seperate Servers - 90,000 groups - Uncensored -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= |
#8
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Substrate heater installation?
Substrate heaters are supposed to be of long term benefit. They won't make
your plants grow faster, better, or nicer. But they will allow you to grow them for many many years without getting a stale substrate. Thanks for that. I have read in several books now about the use of substrate heaters. In addition, I'm the type of person who reasons any given thing out before acting. It makes very clear sense that, in trying to mimic a natural environment as much as possible, you would like to provide some moderate constant heat in the base, the "earth". And that just on the face of it. In detail, substrate heaters, I'm told, create little eddies of upcurrent or something, helping to provide circulation throughout the substrate. They do NOT mimic nature at all. Why is nature better for growing plants? Plants just grow there, it's not because that's what is BEST for the plants. Agricultural crops are NOT grown naturally. Those little eddies are channelized and clog after a while. Unless you maintain the substrate and replant, uproot etc, substrates will accumulate too much organic matter after a few months/years. I challenge anyone to show any significant improvement in growth using the cables. I've used them for a decade and never saw any benefit in some 7 tanks over the years. It does not make any difference in the ability to make and maintain and high level of aquascaping in a planted aquaria from anything I've seen or heard from anyone. Will it hurt your tank? No, but neither will sending me 20$. You can read George and my discussions on the APD. Reagrds, Tom Barr |
#9
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Substrate heater installation?
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#10
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Substrate heater installation?
Will it hurt your tank? No, but neither will sending me 20$.
Hi Tom, :-) Actually substrate heaters may "hurt" some set ups in hot climates due to adding more heat. Aquarium coolers are not inexpensive. If Adam does decide to install the substrate heater in his tank I would just give him one advice: make sure you secure it very well to the bottom. Don't rely on the suction cups alone. -- Regards, Marvin Hlavac Toronto, Canada |
#11
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Substrate heater installation?
They do NOT mimic nature at all. Why is nature better for growing
plants? Plants just grow there, it's not because that's what is BEST for the plants. Yes, in fact, it is. It's sort of a law of the universe really. All members of the biotic community are as they are because they have adapted, up to this point, to be optimally suited for their environments. You missed the point, I know of no aquatic environment where plants are warmed from the bottom of substrate. If you are aware of one I'd like to know. Wetland soils are anaerobic as can be, reducing this anaerobic nature if you want to suggest the mimicing nature idea is correct, is the last thing you'd want to do, it causes aerobic conditions, not anaerobic conditions. These flow rates produced by cables are also shown not to be optimal for aquatic plant plant growth which is about .49 liter/m^2/day of flux. This flux occurs without any heat generated current Agricultural crops are NOT grown naturally. A good farm system looks much more like "piece of nature", as far as doing something "unnatural" like growing human food (as opposed to gathering and hunting) can look natural. One sees a great variety of plant types, plants are located such that they are best suited to the characteristics of that particular ecological niche, heat-loving plants are growing in the heat of summer, cool-loving plants in spring and fall (opposite for those in the tropics and subtropics), short-growing plants are at the south, taller ones at the north (in the northern hemisphere), etc. I'm not arguing whether argicultural practices are right or wrong(I agree with you), the fact of the matter is that horticultural plants can be grown in much better conditions to get greater production from them(terrestiral of aquatic). Many plants grow in certain locations for many reasons. Simply suggestion it is there because it's the best place for it is a a very large assumption, many invasive weed plants take over quickly in new habitats. Serpentine soil plants do much better in non serpintine soil but are outcompeted by other plants, remove those other plants, and they grow well. By adding traces, CO2, etc, you are amplifying the tank, if back to natural systems is more your preferred model, non CO2 tanks are quite nice. But cables are not natural in the least and I know of no natural system anywhere that has warmer temps below the substrate where submersed aquatic plants grow. If you are aware of a location where this occurs, please be forth coming. Those little eddies are channelized and clog after a while. Unless you maintain the substrate and replant, uproot etc, substrates will accumulate too much organic matter after a few months/years. As I understand it, having read on this and talked to a couple of commercial aqua plant growers, with regular maintenance of the top of the substrate, just as with any tank, this is not a problem. If you're using a UGF, for example, and you never siphon off the mulm from the top layer of gravel, channeling and dead spots occur. So how again does this contribute to the long term stability since you are going in and removing plants, disturbing the substrate? It is you or is it the cables? Further, any tank will have to been torn down and started over from scratch every so often exactly because it is not a natural environment, one is only aiming to mimic one, and the tank has no natural means of completely replenishing and cleansing itself as it would in nature. Hummmm....I have some rather old tanks and they do quite well without cables or needing to be torn down. I prune and remove/export mulm/organic matter and plant biomass and add nutrients etc. I do not think a tank needs to be torn down every so often unless it's been neglected. I challenge anyone to show any significant improvement in growth using the cables. I've used them for a decade and never saw any benefit in some 7 tanks over the years. Rarely does a challenge count much in favor of factual argumentation. In the short paragraph above, you have hardly proved your point. I don't have to prove my point to you. I already know that make no significant improvement, so do many others that have used cables in the past. You have not provided a single bit of evidence that they _do work_. I've used them for a decade, have you? Are you able to keep your tanks in good enough shape and nutrient levels to make sure the independent variables don't influence your measurements on the cables? Tropica has, but if you don't want to believe me or them, that's up to you. I'm pretty good at isolating the dependent variable of interest and after a decade, you pretty much know. The other dead give away with cables, if you live in warmer regions during the summer the cables are off for months sometimes, I never saw growth differences and are they good if they only work/are used for 6 months out of the year? Some use AC or a chiller, but heck, now that's some $ and PITA. I can easily do a beautiful tank as can a new person without them so why bother? Take a look at the AGA winners, they don't use them, George Booth is one of the few hold outs in the USA on cables and we've had many discussions on this issue on the APD. I point this out because, obviously, this is a subject of great interest to me. Those who have beautiful planted aquaria are few and far between. Take a look www.sfbaaps.com.one of use use cables. Take a look at the Dallas Forth Worth people. No cables. Take a look at the Singapore's groups, no cables(Too hot!). I'd be glad to send you some pics of my tanks. I'll post a link to some of the pics on my tanks. Why would it be that _most_ of those whose published work I've read or whom I've spoken to advocate the use of substrate heater? Let's see.... who sells them: Dupla. The Optimum Aquarium was written by who? The rest seem to be bandwagon but there's no evidence that cables work or not even if they are suggested in a book. It was suggested in most books that excess PO4 causes algae, this is also clearly untrue. Just because it's in a book does not make it true. I have routinely added 1-2ppm of PO4 to my tanks for 15 years. Take a look at the tanks and ask around. Ask SeaChem, they make PO4 additives directly based off my past work on these subjects. I am of course more than willing to acccept that they might keep to that tenet simply due to a lack of open mindedness or otherwise, but such has not been shown to me, certainly not "proved". I do not think anyone will be able to prove it anytime soon. Proof is hard and takes a lot of work. But is it a significant player in a planted tank? That you can find out. Many folks have done excellent examples of planted tanks without cables, look no further than many of Amano's tanks, many of the tanks in the USA, very few if any use cables. Will it hurt your tank? No, but neither will sending me 20$. You can read George and my discussions on the APD. Oxfam gets the $20, without question. I will see if I can find your discussions. Thanks. I've got the substrate heater and am days away from setting up my 40H tank with it...or without it if someone can prove to me it will be nothing but a hassle or an eyesore in a couple of years and will not have been worth whatever benefit new plants might have received from it before establishment. I'm not saying it'll cause problems, I'm saying it will not help or hurt. No significant or discernable improvement. After 10 years of close observations, lots of money and time spent, I gave up. I never found anything remotely significant. I do much better focusing on a good substrate(flourite/onyx sand, mulm/peat mixed in) and dosing the water column, the3se will get you much further in having an algae free healthy tank. I'll post a picture trail link shortly. Meanwhile, see some pics from www.sfbaaps.com under gallery and the DWF plant group, and the AGA's aquascaping contest. Virtually no cables anywhere. Regards, Tom Barr |
#12
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Substrate heater installation?
Will it hurt your tank? No, but neither will sending me 20$.
Hi Tom, :-) Actually substrate heaters may "hurt" some set ups in hot climates due to adding more heat. Aquarium coolers are not inexpensive. Yea, tell me about it:-) If Adam does decide to install the substrate heater in his tank I would just give him one advice: make sure you secure it very well to the bottom. Don't rely on the suction cups alone. Yes, even the best suction cups, which are made by Dupla are sujected to movement. Then you do not get the micro currents that Dupla suggest help. If currents to the substrate do help, then why not like the RFUG I used for a about 20 years also not do the same thing? Does the same thing as the cables, just at a higher flow rate, grows plants great/the same as cables did over the same time period. I made my own grill from heat resistent plastic to keep the distance from the tank bottom the same. Many folks turn their cables off over the summer months, Folks in SG don't/cannot use them at all yet routinely set up beautiful tanks. George Booth runs his AC at 72F so he has a "Dupla" air conditioner I think he and I beat that horse to death on the APD over the years. I used reptile heating pads on the bottom of the tanks and I would certainly argue that these do the same the thing as a cable system. The increase in bacterial reminerilization of nutrients due to temp increase could account for slight differences rather than flux. But substrates and their role in planted aquaria are of great interest to me on a number of levels. I've had: High flow(RFUG's) Low flow (Cables) No flow (Just gravels/sand) over the years to look at the role of flux in/out of the substrate. No flow, like Claus's discussions with me, produced the best growth of any of these three systems with root submersed plants. Regards, Tom Barr |
#13
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Substrate heater installation?
http://www.aquatic-plants.org/
http://www.sfbaaps.com/ You can see me having dinner with Amano and speaking on plants at ther AGA conference(I did last year as well and other societies including marine plants to reef clubs)You'll see me at this years meeting in Baltimore. Amano will be there yet again. He's a nice guy and good person. http://192.38.244.204/go.asp?show=tropica Here's the AGA site: http://showcase.aquatic-gardeners.org/ Some of my own stuff: Both SW and FW plants: http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/...6&uid=1473668& So if you want examples of how well folks can do this hobby without cables, I think I've supplied enough ammo. But a winning aquascape is more the skill of of the it's owner than a method or system. I can force most systems to work if I want to. But I don't like to do that, I'd rather find the best optimal growth and easiest method to get the desired effect. Finding a balance with whatever system you chose is a goal of mine to help others do better. I also try and save folks a lot of $ on set ups, but ultimately you will do what you want. I cannot force you to save money or do less work than you need to:-) Books on plants are sorely outdated and have many assumptions that are incorrect. The cost for these tanks is also a hinderance to many, I try and find good methods that are cheap and universally available. I do suggest spending good $ on CO2, fluorite/onyx sand, Florabase etc and lighting(more light is not better though) but for fert's and other routines, simple and cheap. I add KNO3 Traces(TMG, Flourish, CMS) KH2PO4 CO2/Light(these are seldom adjusted) Weekly 50-70% water changes(takes about 45 minutes to change several tanks totaling 170 gal) Prune and trim/clean first, then last thing do the water change. Bob's tank has a ton of Discus, he adds less KNO3 etc. Have high PO4 in the tap, delete the KH2PO4 etc. My tanks go from 6 w/gal down to 1.3 watts/gal and non CO2. Enjoy browsing. Regards, Tom Barr |
#14
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Substrate heater installation?
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#15
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Substrate heater installation?
I bought cables when I first got into plants very heavily after Dupla
came out. Many folks did and this trend sort of stuck with the hobby. But later as you get better at figuring out what works and what does not, then you know what you really need and don't. But I was no different than most new folks about all this. You just want things to succeed is all and want to get it right from the start. That can be done, see James' winning tank AGA last year, that guy had 8 months in the hobby. Regards, Tom Barr |
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