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#1
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Phosphate
Hi,
The tap water at my work place has a pH of 7.8. So far when I've done water changes in my planted tank at work, I've been lowering the pH (to ~6.8) using a commercial kit which uses sodium biphosphate. Recently I've noticed that my phosphate level is 2ppm. Is there another way to lower pH of the clean water without resorting to installing an RO system etc. Thank you in advance. Kevin |
#2
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Phosphate
**** Post for FREE via your newsreader at post.usenet.com ****
Peat filtering, CO2 injection, driftwood, blackwater extract, lots of plants... etc. Cheers Kenneth "kevin.gomez" ¦b¶l¥ó news:u7hrc.89202$iF6.7746947@attbi_s02 ¤¤¼¶¼g... Hi, The tap water at my work place has a pH of 7.8. So far when I've done water changes in my planted tank at work, I've been lowering the pH (to ~6.8) using a commercial kit which uses sodium biphosphate. Recently I've noticed that my phosphate level is 2ppm. Is there another way to lower pH of the clean water without resorting to installing an RO system etc. Thank you in advance. Kevin -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= *** Usenet.com - The #1 Usenet Newsgroup Service on The Planet! *** http://www.usenet.com Unlimited Download - 19 Seperate Servers - 90,000 groups - Uncensored -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= |
#3
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Phosphate
"kevin.gomez" wrote in message news:u7hrc.89202$iF6.7746947@attbi_s02...
Hi, The tap water at my work place has a pH of 7.8. So far when I've done water changes in my planted tank at work, I've been lowering the pH (to ~6.8) using a commercial kit which uses sodium biphosphate. Recently I've noticed that my phosphate level is 2ppm. Is there another way to lower pH of the clean water without resorting to installing an RO system etc. Thank you in advance. Kevin If this is a plant tank, adding acid "buffers"(techincally they are not "buffers") to lower pH is the last thing you want to do. If you want a lower pH, CO2 is what the plants want and need. PO4 is used also but you don't need 2ppm really, but it will not cause algae as many seem to incorrectly assume. The folks getting BBA, it has virtually nothing to do with PO4 or NO3. BBA will still grow without detectable levels using a Lamott test kit, so you are NOT going to control or limit it's growth in that manner. If BBA appears due to excess PO4, how come I have not had it as have many others for a decades? My PO4 is in excess of 1ppm and clearly the algae have plenty of access to the PO4 in the water column. Others have gone to 2ppm and never seen a lick of PO4. Why would PO4 cause algae in some people's tanks yet not mine or many others? Magic? My tanks grow any aquatic plant species and algae free as they have for many years, I add PO4 to my tanks. See below. Also see DFW and SFBAAPS clubs. They have been dosing PO4 for a long time(7-8 years). SeaChem makes PO4 supplements for plant tanks. If you raise the CO2 to 20-30ppm for the entire photoperoid and keep it at that level consistently, BBA will stop growing. Try it. Then you can see for yourself and stop going on a wild goose chase. That's the issue, not PO4 or NO3 etc.You need these for decent plant growth, but you need good CO2 before these can be considered. Rather than tail chasing after algae, chase the needs of the plants, give them good CO2, ample supplies of NO3, PO4, K, GH, Traces, pH is only good in terms of measuring the CO2 by the KH/pH relationship. A specific pH does not mean much without some other factor/measurement included. BTW, it is a myth that plants prefer soft water, low pH's or require RO water. Dr. Bowes has show the opposite in his research on aquatic photosynthesis of FW macrophytes. Here's a FW tank of mine with lots of PO4, extremely hard water(KH11, GH 24): http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view Don't worry about your tap water's pH, it really does not make much difference and there are several reasons for this. Regards, Tom Barr |
#4
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Phosphate
" wrote in message
om... If BBA appears due to excess PO4, how come I have not had it as have many others for a decades? My PO4 is in excess of 1ppm and clearly the algae have plenty of access to the PO4 in the water column. Others have gone to 2ppm and never seen a lick of PO4. Why would PO4 cause algae in some people's tanks yet not mine or many others? Magic? My tanks grow any aquatic plant species and algae free as they have for many years, I add PO4 to my tanks. See below. Also see DFW and SFBAAPS clubs. They have been dosing PO4 for a long time(7-8 years). SeaChem makes PO4 supplements for plant tanks. If you raise the CO2 to 20-30ppm for the entire photoperoid and keep it at that level consistently, BBA will stop growing. Try it. Then you can see for yourself and stop going on a wild goose chase. That's the issue, not PO4 or NO3 etc.You need these for decent plant growth, but you need good CO2 before these can be considered. Rather than tail chasing after algae, chase the needs of the plants, give them good CO2, ample supplies of NO3, PO4, K, GH, Traces, pH is only good in terms of measuring the CO2 by the KH/pH relationship. A specific pH does not mean much without some other factor/measurement included. BTW, it is a myth that plants prefer soft water, low pH's or require RO water. Dr. Bowes has show the opposite in his research on aquatic photosynthesis of FW macrophytes. Here's a FW tank of mine with lots of PO4, extremely hard water(KH11, GH 24): http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view Don't worry about your tap water's pH, it really does not make much difference and there are several reasons for this. Regards, Tom Barr |
#5
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Phosphate
" wrote in message
om... If you raise the CO2 to 20-30ppm for the entire photoperoid and keep it at that level consistently, BBA will stop growing. Try it. Then you can see for yourself and stop going on a wild goose chase. Okay Tom, I'm always open to an experiment :-) My 55 gal is phosphate 0ppm , around 2ppm Nitrate (due to addition of KNO3 as required). CO2 is around 20ppm by calculation. I still always get some beard algae growing somewhere or other. I've just increased the kH to 10 dgh in order to obtain 30 ppm CO2. I'll lete you know the results. Regards Graham. |
#6
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Phosphate
I've just increased the kH to 10 dgh in order to obtain 30 ppm CO2.
Why raise your KH to 10? Not that it's bad or anything but that won't change your CO2 concentration. You need to add more CO2, nothing more. What was your KH before? If it's anything over 3-4 you shouldn't have any problems with PH swings while raising your CO2 levels. But 20ppm shouldn't cause any BBA problems, not if it's stable. Personally, I'd suggest correcting your phosphate deficiency first before looking at CO2. If you haven't already done so, buy a couple SAEs too, they will help a great deal. hope that helps Giancarlo Podio www.gpodio.com |
#7
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Phosphate
"Graham Broadbridge" wrote in message . au...
" wrote in message om... If you raise the CO2 to 20-30ppm for the entire photoperoid and keep it at that level consistently, BBA will stop growing. Try it. Then you can see for yourself and stop going on a wild goose chase. Okay Tom, I'm always open to an experiment :-) My 55 gal is phosphate 0ppm , around 2ppm Nitrate (due to addition of KNO3 as required). CO2 is around 20ppm by calculation. I still always get some beard algae growing somewhere or other. I've just increased the kH to 10 dgh in order to obtain 30 ppm CO2. I'll lete you know the results. Regards Graham. Good idea but why not just add more CO2 and lower the pH, not add more KH? The pH is not going to change things by being another 0.2pH units down. Having to alter KH is a PITA if you don't have to. It would not hurt to add some PO4 at that point also. 2ppm of NO3 is too low BTW and so is 0 ppm PO4. You have co limtations occuring. Your plants do not have enough C, N and P. Algae don't need much so you can figure out who's going to dominate this situation quick. Regards, Tom Barr |
#8
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Phosphate
" wrote in message
om... The folks getting BBA, it has virtually nothing to do with PO4 or NO3. BBA will still grow without detectable levels using a Lamott test kit, so you are NOT going to control or limit it's growth in that manner. Agree. With 0 measurable phosphate and around 5ppm NO3 I find that BBA will grow in my tank. The NO3 is added (in the form of KNO3) to keep the level at 5ppm as without that addition it will drop to zero and other algae seem to blossom at the expense of the desired plants. If you raise the CO2 to 20-30ppm for the entire photoperoid and keep it at that level consistently, BBA will stop growing. Try it. Then you can see for yourself and stop going on a wild goose chase. Interesting hypothesis. I've been running my tank at 20ppm CO2 which must not be enough. I've just added enough Baking soda to increase the level to 30ppm CO2 - the pH controller is (at the moment) sending out millions of bubbles of CO2 to lower the pH :-) I'll let you know if the hypothesis is proven here at 30 ppm. Details: 55 gal tank pH 7 kH 7 gH 5 NO3: 5ppm Fe: 0.15 Adjusted PMDD formula fed daily to balance nutrients Heavily planted at the moment with elodea (throw away weed - pruning around 6 inches from each stem twice a week) plus other more important plants. Regards Graham. |
#9
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Phosphate
"Giancarlo Podio" wrote in message
m... If you haven't already done so, buy a couple SAEs too, they will help a great deal. I've not been able to find a true SAE in Australia. Lot's of otto's and CAE's but no-one sells an SAE that looks anything those pictured online. Perhaps they're too difficult to ship - maybe they're just a prohibited import. Who knows? Graham. |
#10
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Phosphate
" wrote in message
m... Good idea but why not just add more CO2 and lower the pH, not add more KH? The pH is not going to change things by being another 0.2pH units down. Having to alter KH is a PITA if you don't have to. That's a good idea, but the water out of the tap here in Sydney has 0kH to start with. Every water change I have to add sodium Bicarb to keep an even 6-8 dkH. One teaspoon or two makes no difference :-) Baking soda is cheap :-) It would not hurt to add some PO4 at that point also. 2ppm of NO3 is too low BTW and so is 0 ppm PO4. I'm aiming for the phosphate limitation scenario that is quite popular based on the infamous paper which I'm sure you've read. It's worked quite well over the last 3 months or so, but there is still some BBA growing - but I dont have algae eating fish. I'm doing the same as you, Tom, and experimenting. One day one of us will find the ultimate solution :-) Regards Graham. |
#11
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Phosphate
I've not been able to find a true SAE in Australia. Lot's of otto's and CAE's but no-one sells an SAE that looks anything those pictured online. Yes, they sell true, genuine SAEs at the Gold Coast Pet Center. But they're $16 each. |
#12
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Phosphate
"Graham Broadbridge" wrote in message . au...
" wrote in message m... Good idea but why not just add more CO2 and lower the pH, not add more KH? The pH is not going to change things by being another 0.2pH units down. Having to alter KH is a PITA if you don't have to. That's a good idea, but the water out of the tap here in Sydney has 0kH to start with. Every water change I have to add sodium Bicarb to keep an even 6-8 dkH. One teaspoon or two makes no difference :-) Baking soda is cheap :-) It would not hurt to add some PO4 at that point also. 2ppm of NO3 is too low BTW and so is 0 ppm PO4. I'm aiming for the phosphate limitation scenario that is quite popular based on the infamous paper which I'm sure you've read. Which has long been surpassed, specially for CO2 tanks. Phosphate limitation is good for non CO2 tanks, doesn't work too well with higher light and CO2 as phosphate IS a required element and at such fast rates of growth, a 0ppm level will likely cause problems. Try it, you will see for yourself. Hope that helps Giancarlo Podio www.gpodio.com |
#13
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Phosphate
Agree. With 0 measurable phosphate and around 5ppm NO3 I find that BBA will
grow in my tank. The NO3 is added (in the form of KNO3) to keep the level at 5ppm as without that addition it will drop to zero and other algae seem to blossom at the expense of the desired plants. Focus should always be on the plants, not the algae. Take care of the plants and you will not have algae. Interesting hypothesis. I've been running my tank at 20ppm CO2 which must not be enough. I've just added enough Baking soda to increase the level to 30ppm CO2 - the pH controller is (at the moment) sending out millions of bubbles of CO2 to lower the pH :-) Try adding a bit more CO2, measure your night time pH right befiore you turn off the CO2 and also make sure the probe is good and that the KH is actually 7 etc. Good in tank mixing also helps to get enough CO2 to the plants also. Adjusted PMDD formula fed daily to balance nutrients Heavily planted at the moment with elodea (throw away weed - pruning around 6 inches from each stem twice a week) plus other more important plants. Regards Graham. I think your KNO3 dosing is too low. The Trace mix I add is about 10-15mls 3x a week for a tank this size. You can divide this into daily volumes, but that is much better than any test kit reading you can provide. Iron test kits do not tell a planted hobbyist much nor what they need to know. You can try addin gthe PO4 via a Fleet enema(a few$ at a local drug store, sodium phosphate mainly, get unscented etc) and add about 4-5 drops and then watch your plants. Add it in the morning and then note your tank's condition later before the lights go out. Add about every 2-3 days. Paul and Kevin's paper is widely read, but assume algae can be limited by PO4 and is only 2 cases studies, not the best controls in the world, nor proves anything and is with low light and NO FL's bulbs. CO2 is set about 1/2 full CO2 saturation for aquatic plants(about 30ppm for many species) This PO$ limitation is far from true. Well heck, you can see that for yourself in your tank. And you are not the only one, many have done this and I've watched them and tested their tanks in the past. Here's my tanks that I add lots of PO4 too: http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/...32&uid=1473668 Also the AGA folks generally add PO4 to all their tanks: http://www.aquatic-gardeners.org/ Under "aqascaping contest" BTW come see Amano this Nov Now you can decide what is correct or not yourself. Some of the approaches such as dosing macro's and taking better care of the plant's needs is very helpful and led to better horticulture of aquatic plants, so it's still a very good read, but careful assuming too much. If you are still not convinced, you can come down and see a 6 mile river full of plants that comes right out of an old PO4 mining operation. Regards, Tom Barr |
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