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Old 21-05-2004, 09:11 AM
kevin.gomez
 
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Default Phosphate

Hi,

The tap water at my work place has a pH of 7.8. So far when I've done water
changes in my planted tank at work, I've been lowering the pH (to ~6.8)
using a commercial kit which uses sodium biphosphate. Recently I've noticed
that my phosphate level is 2ppm. Is there another way to lower pH of the
clean water without resorting to installing an RO system etc.

Thank you in advance.

Kevin






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Old 21-05-2004, 01:03 PM
Kenneth Ho
 
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Default Phosphate

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Peat filtering, CO2 injection, driftwood, blackwater extract, lots of
plants... etc.

Cheers
Kenneth

"kevin.gomez" ¦b¶l¥ó
news:u7hrc.89202$iF6.7746947@attbi_s02 ¤¤¼¶¼g...
Hi,

The tap water at my work place has a pH of 7.8. So far when I've done

water
changes in my planted tank at work, I've been lowering the pH (to ~6.8)
using a commercial kit which uses sodium biphosphate. Recently I've

noticed
that my phosphate level is 2ppm. Is there another way to lower pH of the
clean water without resorting to installing an RO system etc.

Thank you in advance.

Kevin










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  #3   Report Post  
Old 21-05-2004, 06:09 PM
 
Posts: n/a
Default Phosphate

"kevin.gomez" wrote in message news:u7hrc.89202$iF6.7746947@attbi_s02...
Hi,

The tap water at my work place has a pH of 7.8. So far when I've done water
changes in my planted tank at work, I've been lowering the pH (to ~6.8)
using a commercial kit which uses sodium biphosphate. Recently I've noticed
that my phosphate level is 2ppm. Is there another way to lower pH of the
clean water without resorting to installing an RO system etc.

Thank you in advance.

Kevin


If this is a plant tank, adding acid "buffers"(techincally they are
not "buffers") to lower pH is the last thing you want to do.
If you want a lower pH, CO2 is what the plants want and need. PO4 is
used also but you don't need 2ppm really, but it will not cause algae
as many seem to incorrectly assume.

The folks getting BBA, it has virtually nothing to do with PO4 or NO3.
BBA will still grow without detectable levels using a Lamott test kit,
so you are NOT going to control or limit it's growth in that manner.

If BBA appears due to excess PO4, how come I have not had it as have
many others for a decades? My PO4 is in excess of 1ppm and clearly the
algae have plenty of access to the PO4 in the water column. Others
have gone to 2ppm and never seen a lick of PO4.

Why would PO4 cause algae in some people's tanks yet not mine or many
others?
Magic? My tanks grow any aquatic plant species and algae free as they
have for many years, I add PO4 to my tanks. See below. Also see DFW
and SFBAAPS clubs. They have been dosing PO4 for a long time(7-8
years). SeaChem makes PO4 supplements for plant tanks.

If you raise the CO2 to 20-30ppm for the entire photoperoid and keep
it at that level consistently, BBA will stop growing. Try it. Then you
can see for yourself and stop going on a wild goose chase.

That's the issue, not PO4 or NO3 etc.You need these for decent plant
growth, but you need good CO2 before these can be considered.

Rather than tail chasing after algae, chase the needs of the plants,
give them good CO2, ample supplies of NO3, PO4, K, GH, Traces, pH is
only good in terms of measuring the CO2 by the KH/pH relationship.

A specific pH does not mean much without some other factor/measurement
included.

BTW, it is a myth that plants prefer soft water, low pH's or require
RO water.
Dr. Bowes has show the opposite in his research on aquatic
photosynthesis of FW macrophytes.

Here's a FW tank of mine with lots of PO4, extremely hard water(KH11,
GH 24):
http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view

Don't worry about your tap water's pH, it really does not make much
difference and there are several reasons for this.

Regards,
Tom Barr
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Old 24-05-2004, 04:07 PM
Graham Broadbridge
 
Posts: n/a
Default Phosphate

" wrote in message
om...

If BBA appears due to excess PO4, how come I have not had it as have
many others for a decades? My PO4 is in excess of 1ppm and clearly the
algae have plenty of access to the PO4 in the water column. Others
have gone to 2ppm and never seen a lick of PO4.

Why would PO4 cause algae in some people's tanks yet not mine or many
others?
Magic? My tanks grow any aquatic plant species and algae free as they
have for many years, I add PO4 to my tanks. See below. Also see DFW
and SFBAAPS clubs. They have been dosing PO4 for a long time(7-8
years). SeaChem makes PO4 supplements for plant tanks.

If you raise the CO2 to 20-30ppm for the entire photoperoid and keep
it at that level consistently, BBA will stop growing. Try it. Then you
can see for yourself and stop going on a wild goose chase.

That's the issue, not PO4 or NO3 etc.You need these for decent plant
growth, but you need good CO2 before these can be considered.

Rather than tail chasing after algae, chase the needs of the plants,
give them good CO2, ample supplies of NO3, PO4, K, GH, Traces, pH is
only good in terms of measuring the CO2 by the KH/pH relationship.

A specific pH does not mean much without some other factor/measurement
included.

BTW, it is a myth that plants prefer soft water, low pH's or require
RO water.
Dr. Bowes has show the opposite in his research on aquatic
photosynthesis of FW macrophytes.

Here's a FW tank of mine with lots of PO4, extremely hard water(KH11,
GH 24):
http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view

Don't worry about your tap water's pH, it really does not make much
difference and there are several reasons for this.

Regards,
Tom Barr



  #5   Report Post  
Old 24-05-2004, 05:11 PM
Graham Broadbridge
 
Posts: n/a
Default Phosphate

" wrote in message
om...

If you raise the CO2 to 20-30ppm for the entire photoperoid and keep
it at that level consistently, BBA will stop growing. Try it. Then you
can see for yourself and stop going on a wild goose chase.


Okay Tom, I'm always open to an experiment :-)

My 55 gal is phosphate 0ppm , around 2ppm Nitrate (due to addition of KNO3
as required). CO2 is around 20ppm by calculation.

I still always get some beard algae growing somewhere or other.

I've just increased the kH to 10 dgh in order to obtain 30 ppm CO2.

I'll lete you know the results.

Regards
Graham.





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Old 24-05-2004, 09:05 PM
Giancarlo Podio
 
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Default Phosphate

I've just increased the kH to 10 dgh in order to obtain 30 ppm CO2.

Why raise your KH to 10? Not that it's bad or anything but that won't
change your CO2 concentration. You need to add more CO2, nothing more.
What was your KH before? If it's anything over 3-4 you shouldn't have
any problems with PH swings while raising your CO2 levels.

But 20ppm shouldn't cause any BBA problems, not if it's stable.
Personally, I'd suggest correcting your phosphate deficiency first
before looking at CO2. If you haven't already done so, buy a couple
SAEs too, they will help a great deal.

hope that helps
Giancarlo Podio
www.gpodio.com
  #7   Report Post  
Old 24-05-2004, 10:25 PM
 
Posts: n/a
Default Phosphate

"Graham Broadbridge" wrote in message . au...
" wrote in message
om...

If you raise the CO2 to 20-30ppm for the entire photoperoid and keep
it at that level consistently, BBA will stop growing. Try it. Then you
can see for yourself and stop going on a wild goose chase.


Okay Tom, I'm always open to an experiment :-)

My 55 gal is phosphate 0ppm , around 2ppm Nitrate (due to addition of KNO3
as required). CO2 is around 20ppm by calculation.

I still always get some beard algae growing somewhere or other.

I've just increased the kH to 10 dgh in order to obtain 30 ppm CO2.

I'll lete you know the results.

Regards
Graham.


Good idea but why not just add more CO2 and lower the pH, not add more
KH?
The pH is not going to change things by being another 0.2pH units
down.
Having to alter KH is a PITA if you don't have to.

It would not hurt to add some PO4 at that point also.
2ppm of NO3 is too low BTW and so is 0 ppm PO4.

You have co limtations occuring.
Your plants do not have enough C, N and P. Algae don't need much so
you can figure out who's going to dominate this situation quick.

Regards,
Tom Barr
  #8   Report Post  
Old 25-05-2004, 08:02 AM
Graham Broadbridge
 
Posts: n/a
Default Phosphate

" wrote in message
om...

The folks getting BBA, it has virtually nothing to do with PO4 or NO3.
BBA will still grow without detectable levels using a Lamott test kit,
so you are NOT going to control or limit it's growth in that manner.


Agree. With 0 measurable phosphate and around 5ppm NO3 I find that BBA will
grow in my tank. The NO3 is added (in the form of KNO3) to keep the level
at 5ppm as without that addition it will drop to zero and other algae seem
to blossom at the expense of the desired plants.

If you raise the CO2 to 20-30ppm for the entire photoperoid and keep
it at that level consistently, BBA will stop growing. Try it. Then you
can see for yourself and stop going on a wild goose chase.


Interesting hypothesis. I've been running my tank at 20ppm CO2 which must
not be enough. I've just added enough Baking soda to increase the level to
30ppm CO2 - the pH controller is (at the moment) sending out millions of
bubbles of CO2 to lower the pH :-)

I'll let you know if the hypothesis is proven here at 30 ppm.

Details:

55 gal tank
pH 7
kH 7
gH 5
NO3: 5ppm
Fe: 0.15

Adjusted PMDD formula fed daily to balance nutrients
Heavily planted at the moment with elodea (throw away weed - pruning around
6 inches from each stem twice a week) plus other more important plants.

Regards
Graham.


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Old 25-05-2004, 08:04 AM
Graham Broadbridge
 
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Default Phosphate

"Giancarlo Podio" wrote in message
m...
If you haven't already done so, buy a couple
SAEs too, they will help a great deal.


I've not been able to find a true SAE in Australia. Lot's of otto's and
CAE's but no-one sells an SAE that looks anything those pictured online.

Perhaps they're too difficult to ship - maybe they're just a prohibited
import. Who knows?

Graham.


  #10   Report Post  
Old 25-05-2004, 08:05 AM
Graham Broadbridge
 
Posts: n/a
Default Phosphate

" wrote in message
m...

Good idea but why not just add more CO2 and lower the pH, not add more
KH?
The pH is not going to change things by being another 0.2pH units
down.
Having to alter KH is a PITA if you don't have to.


That's a good idea, but the water out of the tap here in Sydney has 0kH to
start with. Every water change I have to add sodium Bicarb to keep an even
6-8 dkH. One teaspoon or two makes no difference :-) Baking soda is
cheap :-)

It would not hurt to add some PO4 at that point also.
2ppm of NO3 is too low BTW and so is 0 ppm PO4.


I'm aiming for the phosphate limitation scenario that is quite popular based
on the infamous paper which I'm sure you've read.

It's worked quite well over the last 3 months or so, but there is still some
BBA growing - but I dont have algae eating fish.

I'm doing the same as you, Tom, and experimenting. One day one of us will
find the ultimate solution :-)

Regards
Graham.






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Old 25-05-2004, 09:04 AM
blank
 
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Default Phosphate



I've not been able to find a true SAE in Australia. Lot's of otto's and
CAE's but no-one sells an SAE that looks anything those pictured online.


Yes, they sell true, genuine SAEs at the Gold Coast Pet Center. But they're
$16 each.


  #12   Report Post  
Old 25-05-2004, 04:13 PM
Giancarlo Podio
 
Posts: n/a
Default Phosphate

"Graham Broadbridge" wrote in message . au...
" wrote in message
m...

Good idea but why not just add more CO2 and lower the pH, not add more
KH?
The pH is not going to change things by being another 0.2pH units
down.
Having to alter KH is a PITA if you don't have to.


That's a good idea, but the water out of the tap here in Sydney has 0kH to
start with. Every water change I have to add sodium Bicarb to keep an even
6-8 dkH. One teaspoon or two makes no difference :-) Baking soda is
cheap :-)

It would not hurt to add some PO4 at that point also.
2ppm of NO3 is too low BTW and so is 0 ppm PO4.


I'm aiming for the phosphate limitation scenario that is quite popular based
on the infamous paper which I'm sure you've read.


Which has long been surpassed, specially for CO2 tanks. Phosphate
limitation is good for non CO2 tanks, doesn't work too well with
higher light and CO2 as phosphate IS a required element and at such
fast rates of growth, a 0ppm level will likely cause problems. Try it,
you will see for yourself.

Hope that helps
Giancarlo Podio
www.gpodio.com
  #13   Report Post  
Old 25-05-2004, 08:07 PM
 
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Agree. With 0 measurable phosphate and around 5ppm NO3 I find that BBA will
grow in my tank. The NO3 is added (in the form of KNO3) to keep the level
at 5ppm as without that addition it will drop to zero and other algae seem
to blossom at the expense of the desired plants.


Focus should always be on the plants, not the algae.
Take care of the plants and you will not have algae.

Interesting hypothesis. I've been running my tank at 20ppm CO2 which must
not be enough. I've just added enough Baking soda to increase the level to
30ppm CO2 - the pH controller is (at the moment) sending out millions of
bubbles of CO2 to lower the pH :-)


Try adding a bit more CO2, measure your night time pH right befiore
you turn off the CO2 and also make sure the probe is good and that the
KH is actually 7 etc. Good in tank mixing also helps to get enough CO2
to the plants also.

Adjusted PMDD formula fed daily to balance nutrients
Heavily planted at the moment with elodea (throw away weed - pruning around
6 inches from each stem twice a week) plus other more important plants.

Regards
Graham.


I think your KNO3 dosing is too low.
The Trace mix I add is about 10-15mls 3x a week for a tank this size.
You can divide this into daily volumes, but that is much better than
any test kit reading you can provide. Iron test kits do not tell a
planted hobbyist much nor what they need to know.

You can try addin gthe PO4 via a Fleet enema(a few$ at a local drug
store, sodium phosphate mainly, get unscented etc) and add about 4-5
drops and then watch your plants. Add it in the morning and then note
your tank's condition later before the lights go out.

Add about every 2-3 days.

Paul and Kevin's paper is widely read, but assume algae can be limited
by PO4 and is only 2 cases studies, not the best controls in the
world, nor proves anything and is with low light and NO FL's bulbs.
CO2 is set about 1/2 full CO2 saturation for aquatic plants(about
30ppm for many species) This PO$ limitation is far from true. Well
heck, you can see that for yourself in your tank. And you are not the
only one, many have done this and I've watched them and tested their
tanks in the past.

Here's my tanks that I add lots of PO4 too:
http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/...32&uid=1473668

Also the AGA folks generally add PO4 to all their tanks:
http://www.aquatic-gardeners.org/

Under "aqascaping contest"

BTW come see Amano this Nov

Now you can decide what is correct or not yourself. Some of the
approaches such as dosing macro's and taking better care of the
plant's needs is very helpful and led to better horticulture of
aquatic plants, so it's still a very good read, but careful assuming
too much.

If you are still not convinced, you can come down and see a 6 mile
river full of plants that comes right out of an old PO4 mining
operation.

Regards,
Tom Barr
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