Newbie to CO2 injection needs help.

My setup:

10 gal. freshwater aquarium
2x 23W 5000K lights (4.6W/gallon)
Natural gravel substrate
Assorted plants and fish
Ghost shrimp
Malaysian ramshorn snails
Aquaclear filter
DIY CO2 injection (6 bubbles/minute into filter)
Airstone (used when lights are off)
Heater (75°F)
PMDD

My tapwater is around 8.4 pH (as tested with a high-range kit). The
CO2 lowers the pH some, and I lower it the rest of the way to 7.0-7.2
using dilute hydrochloric acid. A bit unorthodox, but I will never
use pH-Down or any other phosphate-based buffer again -- I like to be
able to see the contents of my aquarium, not just algae. I don't
currently know the GH/KH of my water, but I assume it must be pretty
high.

Plants are growing a bit better, with a little pearling at the very
top of the aquarium close to the lights. However, CO2 still seems to
be a limiting factor. I know this because I used a bad CO2 recipe the
first time, which generated far too much CO2, crashing the pH below
the bottom limit of my test kit. The result was insanely fast plant
growth, and pearling all over. Unfortunately, the snails were
suffering rapid shell damage. (The fish seemed unaffected.)

I want to see that awesome plant growth again, but I don't want a
bunch of naked snails, so:

1) At how low a pH can the malaysian ramhorn snails thrive on a
permanent basis?
2) Will it benefit the plants if I add more CO2, and use less
hydrochloric acid, while maintaining the same pH? Or is the CO2
already sufficient, but not directly available to the plants because
of my current pH of 7.0-7.2?

And a few other questions:

3) How do you acclimate fish to a CO2-injected tank? Normally, I'd do
a slow acclimation over a few hours by adding tank water to the
container the fish is in, but with CO2 leaving the water and raising
the pH once it leaves the tank, I'm not sure how well this would work
anymore.
4) After the accident, I was *not* able to bring the pH back up after
removal of the CO2 and vigorous aeration over two days. It took water
changes to bring it back up. Did I cause some non-reversable chemical
reaction?
5) Though I don't have this problem right now, could you cure an
aquarium of a pond snail infestation by simply lowering the pH with
CO2 for a few weeks, destroying their shells?

Thanks in advance!
Chris

Not answering your question but wondering if using hydrochloric acid is safe
given that it will liberate chlorine in your aquarium?

Keith

"Chris Crochet" wrote in message
om...
Newbie to CO2 injection needs help.

My setup:

10 gal. freshwater aquarium
2x 23W 5000K lights (4.6W/gallon)
Natural gravel substrate
Assorted plants and fish
Ghost shrimp
Malaysian ramshorn snails
Aquaclear filter
DIY CO2 injection (6 bubbles/minute into filter)
Airstone (used when lights are off)
Heater (75°F)
PMDD

My tapwater is around 8.4 pH (as tested with a high-range kit). The
CO2 lowers the pH some, and I lower it the rest of the way to 7.0-7.2
using dilute hydrochloric acid. A bit unorthodox, but I will never
use pH-Down or any other phosphate-based buffer again -- I like to be
able to see the contents of my aquarium, not just algae. I don't
currently know the GH/KH of my water, but I assume it must be pretty
high.

Plants are growing a bit better, with a little pearling at the very
top of the aquarium close to the lights. However, CO2 still seems to
be a limiting factor. I know this because I used a bad CO2 recipe the
first time, which generated far too much CO2, crashing the pH below
the bottom limit of my test kit. The result was insanely fast plant
growth, and pearling all over. Unfortunately, the snails were
suffering rapid shell damage. (The fish seemed unaffected.)

I want to see that awesome plant growth again, but I don't want a
bunch of naked snails, so:

1) At how low a pH can the malaysian ramhorn snails thrive on a
permanent basis?
2) Will it benefit the plants if I add more CO2, and use less
hydrochloric acid, while maintaining the same pH? Or is the CO2
already sufficient, but not directly available to the plants because
of my current pH of 7.0-7.2?

And a few other questions:

3) How do you acclimate fish to a CO2-injected tank? Normally, I'd do
a slow acclimation over a few hours by adding tank water to the
container the fish is in, but with CO2 leaving the water and raising
the pH once it leaves the tank, I'm not sure how well this would work
anymore.
4) After the accident, I was *not* able to bring the pH back up after
removal of the CO2 and vigorous aeration over two days. It took water
changes to bring it back up. Did I cause some non-reversable chemical
reaction?
5) Though I don't have this problem right now, could you cure an
aquarium of a pond snail infestation by simply lowering the pH with
CO2 for a few weeks, destroying their shells?

Thanks in advance!
Chris

Keith wrote:

Not answering your question but wondering if using hydrochloric acid is
safe given that it will liberate chlorine in your aquarium?

as safe as chlorine in NaCl, aka kitchen salt.

ghrom
--
http://ghrom.com

"Keith" wrote in message ...
Not answering your question but wondering if using hydrochloric acid is safe
given that it will liberate chlorine in your aquarium?

That is a valid and logical concern.

I wouldn't have considered this, except that phosphoric acid, the most
commonly-used pH reducer, was totally unacceptable. With my tapwater
so alkaline, I had to use a lot of it, which was both expensive and
turned my aquarium into an algae tank. Phosphorous is well known to
cause algae growth.

So I did some research on alternatives, and found references to
hydrochloric, sulfuric, and acetic acids being used. Hydrochloric
acid seemed to be the best of the bunch. This quote, borrowed from a
couple of Usenet posts from Uareptigrl sums up the general opinion of
what I found nicely:

"All fish are sensitive to chlorine, but hydrochloric acid is a
solution that is safe for fish because the chloride ions are free...I
work for one of the largest aquariums in the world, and we use
hydrochloric acid ONLY. NEVER use sulfuric no matter what the idiots
at the fish stores tell you. Muriatic acid (hydrochloric) is the only
option."

In addition, it is also regularly used to lower the pH of ponds, so I
took the "chance" and never looked back. It works perfectly, with no
detectable ill effects.

Some months later, I brought up the topic with an aquarium old-timer
at a local franchise pet store (a rare and wonderful find!), and he
said that hydrochloric acid was what most people used before
commercial pH reducers were sold.

Advantages:
1) Doesn't contribute to algae growth.
2) A gallon, readily available for $6 in the pool supply section of
the grocery store, is a lifetime supply for a casual aquarist.

Disadvantages:
1) Phosphoric acid tends to lower pH to a certain level and keep it
there, which is why it's so commonly used. Hydrochloric acid doesn't
do this, and will not maintain pH if you have something in your tank
that is leaching into the water and actively pushing it back up.
2) Hydrochloric acid, straight out of the bottle at 31.45%, is strong
and dangerous stuff. It produces caustic fumes that can burn the nose
if inhaled. I handle it in this form as little as possible. Instead,
I dilute a batch with water, at 1:8 ratio, in a plastic two-liter
bottle and use that. At this concentration, it no longer fumes, and
is far safer/easier to handle.

-Chris

I have and continue to work in a number of public swimming pools, and
the statements I read in the above post disturb me greatly

Chris Crochet wrote
"All fish are sensitive to chlorine, but hydrochloric acid is a
solution that is safe for fish because the chloride ions are free...I
work for one of the largest aquariums in the world, and we use
hydrochloric acid ONLY. NEVER use sulfuric no matter what the idiots
at the fish stores tell you. Muriatic acid (hydrochloric) is the only
option."


snip


Advantages:
1) Doesn't contribute to algae growth.
2) A gallon, readily available for $6 in the pool supply section of
the grocery store, is a lifetime supply for a casual aquarist.


Of course it doesn't contribute to algae growth - free chlorine is the
primary active sanitizer used in 99% of public pools, because it is so
cheap and

***because it oxidizes any biological material it comes into contact
with! hence the burning eyes and itchy skin when you swim in a pool with
to high of levels of Chlorine***

The remaining chlorine after oxidization is called chloramines. Which
also is an oxidizer but acts at a much slower rate.

When someone tells you to treat your water for chlorine and chloramine
prior to adding it to your tank - IT'S FOR GOOD REASON!!!

Disadvantages:

snip

2) Hydrochloric acid, straight out of the bottle at 31.45%, is strong
and dangerous stuff. It produces caustic fumes that can burn the nose
if inhaled. I handle it in this form as little as possible. Instead,
I dilute a batch with water, at 1:8 ratio, in a plastic two-liter
bottle and use that. At this concentration, it no longer fumes, and
is far safer/easier to handle.

At that concentration it is called house hold bleach 1/8 31% = 3.8%
household bleach is generally 3%HCl or 5%NaCl

If you are worried about cost try using a more natural pH reducer -
longer-lasting, and more benefits.

eg. crushed coral added to your substrate - reduces pH, adds calcium to
the tank which is beneficial as a pH buffer and a needed nutrient for
many plants and animals.


PLEASE, PLEASE DO NOT USE HCl AS A pH REDUCER

Kris

Kris wrote:

I have and continue to work in a number of public swimming pools, and
the statements I read in the above post disturb me greatly

that's because you know very little about chemistry.

Of course it doesn't contribute to algae growth - free chlorine is the
primary active sanitizer used in 99% of public pools, because it is so
cheap and

HCl has nothing to do with form of Cl used to sanitize swimming pools.

***because it oxidizes any biological material it comes into contact
with! hence the burning eyes and itchy skin when you swim in a pool with
to high of levels of Chlorine***

The remaining chlorine after oxidization is called chloramines. Which
also is an oxidizer but acts at a much slower rate.

When someone tells you to treat your water for chlorine and chloramine
prior to adding it to your tank - IT'S FOR GOOD REASON!!!

no, it's because he doesn't know what he's talking about. besides, chlorine
is not an oxidizer, chloramine is not either - oxygen is.

If you are worried about cost try using a more natural pH reducer -
longer-lasting, and more benefits.

eg. crushed coral added to your substrate - reduces pH, adds calcium to
the tank which is beneficial as a pH buffer and a needed nutrient for
many plants and animals.

you must be joking, crushed coral actually _increases_ pH, it always did,
always will.

PLEASE, PLEASE DO NOT USE HCl AS A pH REDUCER

Kris

please, do not tell ppl what they should do if you don't know the subject.

ghrom
--
http://ghrom.com

Piotr Farbiszewski wrote:
Kris wrote:


I have and continue to work in a number of public swimming pools, and
the statements I read in the above post disturb me greatly


that's because you know very little about chemistry.

If I wrote something that you disagree with then debate it, there is no
need to slander.


Of course it doesn't contribute to algae growth - free chlorine is the
primary active sanitizer used in 99% of public pools, because it is so
cheap and


HCl has nothing to do with form of Cl used to sanitize swimming pools.

I beg to differ HCl is one of the main means of getting free chlorine
into pools. Compressed chlorine gas used to be the standard, but it is
more costly to set up and dangerous to operators. HCl tubs are easier
to maintain.



***because it oxidizes any biological material it comes into contact
with! hence the burning eyes and itchy skin when you swim in a pool with
to high of levels of Chlorine***

The remaining chlorine after oxidization is called chloramines. Which
also is an oxidizer but acts at a much slower rate.

When someone tells you to treat your water for chlorine and chloramine
prior to adding it to your tank - IT'S FOR GOOD REASON!!!


no, it's because he doesn't know what he's talking about. besides, chlorine
is not an oxidizer, chloramine is not either - oxygen is.


Poor choice of words on my part, should have said it eats or reacts,
rather than oxidizes. As for removing chlorines from water prior to
adding to your tank, I do believe that to be the general consensus in
this and many other forums.


If you are worried about cost try using a more natural pH reducer -
longer-lasting, and more benefits.

eg. crushed coral added to your substrate - reduces pH, adds calcium to
the tank which is beneficial as a pH buffer and a needed nutrient for
many plants and animals.


you must be joking, crushed coral actually _increases_ pH, it always did,
always will.


I apologize, I was thinking about something else, corals will most
definitely raise pH.


PLEASE, PLEASE DO NOT USE HCl AS A pH REDUCER

Kris


please, do not tell ppl what they should do if you don't know the subject.

ghrom

debate instead of slander, we are all still learning in some areas, and
we all make mistakes from time to time.

Kris

Kris wrote in message news:XH8Bc.6611$7d2.1580@clgrps13...
I have and continue to work in a number of public swimming pools, and
the statements I read in the above post disturb me greatly
Of course it doesn't contribute to algae growth - free chlorine is the
primary active sanitizer used in 99% of public pools, because it is so
cheap and
***because it oxidizes any biological material it comes into contact
with! hence the burning eyes and itchy skin when you swim in a pool with
to high of levels of Chlorine***

Used to sanitize pools: sodium hypochlorite, aka BLEACH
Used to lower pH of water: hydrochloric acid

So as other people have already mentioned, you are incorrect.
Somewhat scary that you work on public pools without this knowledge.

And this whole HCl discussion is getting way out of hand. If you guys
want to discuss this, please do it on a separate topic. I need an
answer to my questions about CO2 injection please, and there hasn't
been a single ON TOPIC post here yet.

-Chris

Interspersed comments...

|| Newbie to CO2 injection needs help.
||
|| My setup:
||
|| 10 gal. freshwater aquarium
|| 2x 23W 5000K lights (4.6W/gallon)

a bit high on wattage, 1 23W would be ok, unless you're growing Ricca or
glosso...hahaha....

|| Natural gravel substrate
|| Assorted plants and fish
|| Ghost shrimp
|| Malaysian ramshorn snails
|| Aquaclear filter
|| DIY CO2 injection (6 bubbles/minute into filter)
|| Airstone (used when lights are off)
|| Heater (75°F)
|| PMDD
||
|| My tapwater is around 8.4 pH (as tested with a high-range kit). The
|| CO2 lowers the pH some, and I lower it the rest of the way to 7.0-7.2
|| using dilute hydrochloric acid. A bit unorthodox, but I will never
|| use pH-Down or any other phosphate-based buffer again -- I like to be
|| able to see the contents of my aquarium, not just algae. I don't
|| currently know the GH/KH of my water, but I assume it must be pretty
|| high.

You really should find out the kH and gH of your tank... they play a vital
role in your CO2 production and pH problems... use Chuck Gadds excellent
calculator or website to accurately find your CO2 levels, using your pH and
kH http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_co2chart.htm which is on this
page http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/articles.htm

The more CO2 you get in your water, will lower your pH... using the acid, is
out of my league... no pH down either....

|| Plants are growing a bit better, with a little pearling at the very
|| top of the aquarium close to the lights. However, CO2 still seems to
|| be a limiting factor. I know this because I used a bad CO2 recipe
|| the first time, which generated far too much CO2, crashing the pH
|| below the bottom limit of my test kit. The result was insanely fast
|| plant growth, and pearling all over. Unfortunately, the snails were
|| suffering rapid shell damage. (The fish seemed unaffected.)
||
|| I want to see that awesome plant growth again, but I don't want a
|| bunch of naked snails, so:
||
|| 1) At how low a pH can the malaysian ramhorn snails thrive on a
|| permanent basis?

permanent? I'd say 6.8 but you will see calcification of the shells... you
can add calcium bicarb to help I believe..

|| 2) Will it benefit the plants if I add more CO2, and use less
|| hydrochloric acid, while maintaining the same pH? Or is the CO2
|| already sufficient, but not directly available to the plants because
|| of my current pH of 7.0-7.2?

If you don't know your kH, you don't know your CO2 levels... you must know
your CO2 levels to adjust your pH.. see how it's all sorta connected???
What you need to do is get a kH test kit... Use Chucks CO2 chart to see
where you are... then figure out where you wanna be....

|| And a few other questions:
||
|| 3) How do you acclimate fish to a CO2-injected tank? Normally, I'd
|| do a slow acclimation over a few hours by adding tank water to the
|| container the fish is in, but with CO2 leaving the water and raising
|| the pH once it leaves the tank, I'm not sure how well this would work
|| anymore.

I acclimate the same way, just longer... add tank water to bag, ever 15m or
so. after an hour, dump 'em...

|| 4) After the accident, I was *not* able to bring the pH back up after
|| removal of the CO2 and vigorous aeration over two days. It took
|| water changes to bring it back up. Did I cause some non-reversable
|| chemical reaction?

You probably killed your bio filter, bacteria doesnt' grow below 6.2-6.4 or
so, which is probably why you had a crash...

|| 5) Though I don't have this problem right now, could you cure an
|| aquarium of a pond snail infestation by simply lowering the pH with
|| CO2 for a few weeks, destroying their shells?

you 'could'... but at what cost?? You'd lose your bio filter, and if there
was anything else in the tank, it'd be belly up too

--
| RedForeman ©® fabricator and creator of the ratbike streetfighter!!!
| ==========================
| 2003 TRX450ES
| 1992 TRX-350 XX (For Sale)
| '98 Tacoma Ext Cab 4X4 Lifted....
| ==========================
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|| ((((º`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·.¸. ((((º ·´¯`·. , .·´¯`·.. ((((º

is that better??

"RedForeman ©®" wrote in message ...
Interspersed comments...
|| 2x 23W 5000K lights (4.6W/gallon)

a bit high on wattage, 1 23W would be ok, unless you're growing Ricca or
glosso...hahaha....

I love the appearance of carpet plants such as glossostigma and
microsword, and plan to try my hand at them as soon as I feel I've got
the basics under "control".

You really should find out the kH and gH of your tank... they play a vital
role in your CO2 production and pH problems... use Chuck Gadds excellent
calculator or website to accurately find your CO2 levels, using your pH and
kH http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_co2chart.htm which is on this
page http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/articles.htm

Will obtain this test ASAP and work from there.

|| 4) After the accident, I was *not* able to bring the pH back up after
|| removal of the CO2 and vigorous aeration over two days. It took
|| water changes to bring it back up. Did I cause some non-reversable
|| chemical reaction?

You probably killed your bio filter, bacteria doesnt' grow below 6.2-6.4 or
so, which is probably why you had a crash...

I didn't think of that, but now that you mention it, it makes perfect
sense. Decomposing organic material, including bacteria, would lower
the pH. I just checked ammonia and nitrite and they're both
undetectable, so it looks like the tank fortunately suffered no
long-term effects.

Thanks!

-Chris