I've seen/read/heard or guessed, that most red plants, almost require loads
of Iron in the water...

true or false?

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RedForeman ©® wrote:
I've seen/read/heard or guessed, that most red plants, almost require loads
of Iron in the water...

I don't see why they would need more iron than a green plant. What they
do need is brighter light.

--
Victor Martinez
Owned and operated by the Fantastic Seven (TM)
Send your spam he
Email me he

"RedForeman ©®" wrote in message ...
I've seen/read/heard or guessed, that most red plants, almost require loads
of Iron in the water...

true or false?

--

The answer would be false, their iron content is the same as green
plants.
"Eat your reds"..........hehe.

Color has a few parameters that influence it. Our preception of color
is part of it also. Generally high traces/PO4/CO2 and low NO3 gives
the best reds.

But do red plants need more iron than green plants?
Nope.

Regards,
Tom Barr

|| "RedForeman ©®" wrote in message
||| I've seen/read/heard or guessed, that most red plants, almost
||| require loads of Iron in the water...
||| true or false?

|| The answer would be false, their iron content is the same as green
|| plants.
|| "Eat your reds"..........hehe.
||
|| Color has a few parameters that influence it. Our preception of color
|| is part of it also. Generally high traces/PO4/CO2 and low NO3 gives
|| the best reds.

So, it's entirely possible that my 6700k bulbs are just bring out less reds,
than say, a 3500k bulb?

In my eyes, I like a bulb closer to 3500-4200k, it's bluer, greener, and
redder than the 6700k, and THAT is my perception.

|| But do red plants need more iron than green plants?
|| Nope.
||
|| Regards,
|| Tom Barr

Thanks as usual... :-)
--
| RedForeman ©® fabricator and creator of the ratbike streetfighter!!!
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Why would a red plant need more light than a green one?

Red plants are found in deeper waters and also in deep jungles, most
red plants are found in darker regions and are considered shade
plants.

Red Ludwigia is found very deep in some springs, the stuff growing by
the surface might be green. I saw this today as a matter of fact.
If the plant is in the same water, why would one be red at 18 ft and
green at the surface?

Red Wendtii was growing in a very shaded portion of the spring, Red
ludwigia was growing in a very deep section of a river. The green
plants were closer to high light than the red plants.

I can grow red plants just fine at less light, so can most people.

Red plants do not need more light than green plants, nor more iron.
Why are many Crypts red? They do very well in shaded conditions.

Plants often turn red when someone puts more light on them due to
increases in growth rates and lack of Chlorophyll near the active new
growth. The increased growth often lowers the available NO3 and
reduces the Chlorophyll, which is rich in N wewreas anthocyanin, the
red color pigment has no N.
The effect of increased light or slight N limitation will cause the
tips to turn red first.

If you watch a red plant break the surface and grow above the water,
it does in fact, turn green in the higher less filtered light.

I think this myth is very difficult to support and I've not found it
to be true in practical terms in aquariums. Some of the reddest plnts
have come from lower light, 2w/gal of NO FL's in 24" deep tanks. You
certainly cannot claim high light is the cause for red color as
generalization. I wouldn't.

Good nutrients, low N etc will promote red color, not high light and
iron anymore than they do for green plants. Low N is a two edged sword
with higher light also. It's easier to maintain a low stable N level
that does not cause a deficiency, vs a higher light, faster uptake
tank.


Regards,
Tom Barr

Why does the vast majority of the people in the industry claim red plants
need more light?

I'm not disagreeing with you, but merely wondering why 95% of most people
think red plants need more light?

Even the so called "plant bible" (Kasselmann book) claims red plants need
more light to prosper.

Just wondering...

Thanks,

--
Craig Brye
University of Phoenix Online

" wrote in message
om...
Why would a red plant need more light than a green one?

Red plants are found in deeper waters and also in deep jungles, most
red plants are found in darker regions and are considered shade
plants.

Red Ludwigia is found very deep in some springs, the stuff growing by
the surface might be green. I saw this today as a matter of fact.
If the plant is in the same water, why would one be red at 18 ft and
green at the surface?

Red Wendtii was growing in a very shaded portion of the spring, Red
ludwigia was growing in a very deep section of a river. The green
plants were closer to high light than the red plants.

I can grow red plants just fine at less light, so can most people.

Red plants do not need more light than green plants, nor more iron.
Why are many Crypts red? They do very well in shaded conditions.

Plants often turn red when someone puts more light on them due to
increases in growth rates and lack of Chlorophyll near the active new
growth. The increased growth often lowers the available NO3 and
reduces the Chlorophyll, which is rich in N wewreas anthocyanin, the
red color pigment has no N.
The effect of increased light or slight N limitation will cause the
tips to turn red first.

If you watch a red plant break the surface and grow above the water,
it does in fact, turn green in the higher less filtered light.

I think this myth is very difficult to support and I've not found it
to be true in practical terms in aquariums. Some of the reddest plnts
have come from lower light, 2w/gal of NO FL's in 24" deep tanks. You
certainly cannot claim high light is the cause for red color as
generalization. I wouldn't.

Good nutrients, low N etc will promote red color, not high light and
iron anymore than they do for green plants. Low N is a two edged sword
with higher light also. It's easier to maintain a low stable N level
that does not cause a deficiency, vs a higher light, faster uptake
tank.


Regards,
Tom Barr

|| Why does the vast majority of the people in the industry claim red
|| plants need more light?
||
|| I'm not disagreeing with you, but merely wondering why 95% of most
|| people think red plants need more light?
||
|| Even the so called "plant bible" (Kasselmann book) claims red plants
|| need more light to prosper.
||
|| Just wondering...
||
|| Thanks,
||
|| --
|| Craig Brye
|| University of Phoenix Online

So I'm not the only one who's heard that....

--
| RedForeman ©® fabricator and creator of the ratbike streetfighter!!!
| ==========================
| 2003 TRX450ES
| 1992 TRX-350 XX (For Sale)
| '98 Tacoma Ext Cab 4X4 Lifted....
| ==========================
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| for any questions you may have....
| www.gmail.com

Yeah... I'm not claiming to be an expert, but I've done "a ton" of research
as I have kept aquatic plants for several years now. I've always heard/read
about red plants requiring more light. It's also been my experience that
red plants I've kept in the past (such as Diandra and E. Rubin) have always
faltered when the lighting wasn't strong enough (while other plants were
able to prosper).

--
Craig Brye
University of Phoenix Online

"RedForeman ©®" wrote in message
...
|| Why does the vast majority of the people in the industry claim red
|| plants need more light?
||
|| I'm not disagreeing with you, but merely wondering why 95% of most
|| people think red plants need more light?
||
|| Even the so called "plant bible" (Kasselmann book) claims red plants
|| need more light to prosper.
||
|| Just wondering...
||
|| Thanks,
||
|| --
|| Craig Brye
|| University of Phoenix Online

So I'm not the only one who's heard that....

--
| RedForeman ©® fabricator and creator of the ratbike streetfighter!!!
| ==========================
| 2003 TRX450ES
| 1992 TRX-350 XX (For Sale)
| '98 Tacoma Ext Cab 4X4 Lifted....
| ==========================
| ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤° `°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø
| ((((º`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·.¸. ((((º ·´¯`·. , .·´¯`·.. ((((º
| for any questions you may have....
| www.gmail.com

"Craig Brye" wrote in message ...
Yeah... I'm not claiming to be an expert, but I've done "a ton" of research
as I have kept aquatic plants for several years now. I've always heard/read
about red plants requiring more light. It's also been my experience that
red plants I've kept in the past (such as Diandra and E. Rubin) have always
faltered when the lighting wasn't strong enough (while other plants were
able to prosper).

Are you sure that they just did not need more nutrients instead vs the
other plants? The lighting was not it after all?
What kind of research are you referring to?

I've heard all sorts of claims over the years that folks have written.

Things like:
Plants prefer soft water..........not true.
PO4 causes algae(or excess), not true, I add PO4 liberally, I do not
have algae
Fe causes algae(or excess) Again,. I add it liberally, no algae.
NO3 causes algae(or excess) as above
15ppm is the optimal CO2 level(not true, it's 2x this amount, 30ppm
for common aquatic submersed plants, this concentration comes from
Bowes in various research papers and personal communications)

Just because 95% of folks say it, DOES NOT MAKE IT SO.
I question it because I had findings that certainly suggest otherwise.
No one has suggested any reason or mechanism that refutes the
observations I have stated.

**I think one thing that folks have trouble with is isolation of an
issue.
You have to isolated it and then mess with a range of units that
interest you.

**The other thing is if someone says excess PO4, let's say 1.0ppm
causes algae, why do I not have algae then with high light and
NO3/K/Fe etc?
If this causes algae, where is my algae? Can we still say that is
true?
Why is it true in some cases and not others? Lighting is no
different.

This is a similar situation.
You crank the CO2/NO3/PO4/GH/Traces etc, low light tanks work great.
The Best Eustralis, the best Rotala macrandra, the best D diandra, a
Rubin "Tree", Gloss, Chain swords, Hair grass, mats of Riccia etc, all
did super are 2w/gal of NO FL lighting in a 24" deep tank with 5" of
substrate and good parameters.
The other big issue with lighting, it is the one thing that we cannot
really get a good measure on so it is indirectly measured or grossly
estimated at best. So getting everything else correct and in a good
range that you have chosen will allow you to see how the spectrum and
the intensity influence plant growth.

We went down this about 5-6 years ago on the APD on high light= red
plants.
Neil, myself, Roger Miller, Karen Randall and many others talked about
it.
NO3 at low stable levels seems to be the main trick to redden plants,
not more light was the general conclusion most came to that tested and
tried things out.

You name the plant, I've grown it at 2w/gal of NO FL lights with a
reflector.
There's a few newer stem plants I have not tried, but 99% of the red
plants I have grown very well in moderate to low light by today's
standards.

Take any Ludwigia, or Rotalas and see what color they are when they
break the surface and have far more light.

Karen Randall agrees on this and tells folks that most red plants are
in fact shade low light understory plants. She and I have been at it a
few years too.

The chemical in red, the anthocyanin is mainly considered an anti
herbivory agent in most red plants by Plant Ecologist. The tender tips
of plants(the softer part with the most nutrients) are often red for
this reason.
Some have said the chemical will help protect the plant from high
light also as a possible secondary usage, namely from UV radiation.
Most desert plants are green.....

Regards,
Tom Barr

"Craig Brye" wrote in message
...
Yeah... I'm not claiming to be an expert, but I've done "a ton" of
research
as I have kept aquatic plants for several years now. I've always
heard/read
about red plants requiring more light. It's also been my experience that
red plants I've kept in the past (such as Diandra and E. Rubin) have
always
faltered when the lighting wasn't strong enough (while other plants were
able to prosper).


Like everybody else, I've read this in many many places too. I got a
reddish/purplish plant and it died in my low-light tank within a couple
weeks.

I"m not saying you're wrong.... I used to be a very active part of this
newsgroup, and I know you have a very in depth field of knowledge in this
area. I do, however, know that almost everything I've heard and read says
red plants need more light.

For instance...

The Tropica website lists a ton of plants. You'll see many descriptions
like.... "this specie falls into the 'high light' catergory like other red
plants". I obviously didn't copy this word for word, but generalizations
like that are riddled throughout the Tropica website.

The Kasselmann book also gives many such generalizations. E. Osiris for
example, where she states the red/brown color "...develop under intense
light".

I'm just curious because your statements blew my entire "red plant"
theories! I'm not a chemist, so I take what I read/hear to heart. This is
why I'm fairly confused at the moment.



--
Craig Brye
University of Phoenix Online

" wrote in message
om...
"Craig Brye" wrote in message
...
Yeah... I'm not claiming to be an expert, but I've done "a ton" of
research
as I have kept aquatic plants for several years now. I've always
heard/read
about red plants requiring more light. It's also been my experience
that
red plants I've kept in the past (such as Diandra and E. Rubin) have
always
faltered when the lighting wasn't strong enough (while other plants were
able to prosper).

Are you sure that they just did not need more nutrients instead vs the
other plants? The lighting was not it after all?
What kind of research are you referring to?

I've heard all sorts of claims over the years that folks have written.

Things like:
Plants prefer soft water..........not true.
PO4 causes algae(or excess), not true, I add PO4 liberally, I do not
have algae
Fe causes algae(or excess) Again,. I add it liberally, no algae.
NO3 causes algae(or excess) as above
15ppm is the optimal CO2 level(not true, it's 2x this amount, 30ppm
for common aquatic submersed plants, this concentration comes from
Bowes in various research papers and personal communications)

Just because 95% of folks say it, DOES NOT MAKE IT SO.
I question it because I had findings that certainly suggest otherwise.
No one has suggested any reason or mechanism that refutes the
observations I have stated.

**I think one thing that folks have trouble with is isolation of an
issue.
You have to isolated it and then mess with a range of units that
interest you.

**The other thing is if someone says excess PO4, let's say 1.0ppm
causes algae, why do I not have algae then with high light and
NO3/K/Fe etc?
If this causes algae, where is my algae? Can we still say that is
true?
Why is it true in some cases and not others? Lighting is no
different.

This is a similar situation.
You crank the CO2/NO3/PO4/GH/Traces etc, low light tanks work great.
The Best Eustralis, the best Rotala macrandra, the best D diandra, a
Rubin "Tree", Gloss, Chain swords, Hair grass, mats of Riccia etc, all
did super are 2w/gal of NO FL lighting in a 24" deep tank with 5" of
substrate and good parameters.
The other big issue with lighting, it is the one thing that we cannot
really get a good measure on so it is indirectly measured or grossly
estimated at best. So getting everything else correct and in a good
range that you have chosen will allow you to see how the spectrum and
the intensity influence plant growth.

We went down this about 5-6 years ago on the APD on high light= red
plants.
Neil, myself, Roger Miller, Karen Randall and many others talked about
it.
NO3 at low stable levels seems to be the main trick to redden plants,
not more light was the general conclusion most came to that tested and
tried things out.

You name the plant, I've grown it at 2w/gal of NO FL lights with a
reflector.
There's a few newer stem plants I have not tried, but 99% of the red
plants I have grown very well in moderate to low light by today's
standards.

Take any Ludwigia, or Rotalas and see what color they are when they
break the surface and have far more light.

Karen Randall agrees on this and tells folks that most red plants are
in fact shade low light understory plants. She and I have been at it a
few years too.

The chemical in red, the anthocyanin is mainly considered an anti
herbivory agent in most red plants by Plant Ecologist. The tender tips
of plants(the softer part with the most nutrients) are often red for
this reason.
Some have said the chemical will help protect the plant from high
light also as a possible secondary usage, namely from UV radiation.
Most desert plants are green.....

Regards,
Tom Barr

The Tropica website lists a ton of plants. You'll see many descriptions
like.... "this specie falls into the 'high light' catergory like other red
plants". I obviously didn't copy this word for word, but generalizations
like that are riddled throughout the Tropica website.

The Kasselmann book also gives many such generalizations. E. Osiris for
example, where she states the red/brown color "...develop under intense
light".

I'm just curious because your statements blew my entire "red plant"
theories! I'm not a chemist, so I take what I read/hear to heart. This is
why I'm fairly confused at the moment.
Craig Brye
University of Phoenix Online

I know Claus and Kasslemann personally. So I have no issues going head
to head with them on the issue either. I've stated why their
observations occured.

Now it's time for them or others to say why I have good color at low
light with red plants...................and why I can have red color
at deep depths but green at higher depths and why most red plants are
low light plants.

I have not found any plant that does not do well at 2w/gal which is
often the low end iof the lighting spectrum these days.

Thing is.......2w/gal of NO FL light was "high light" 9-10 years ago!
So when much of the books/species write ups were written, that was the
case.

But people seem to think "more light is better". Not true at all.
There's a range of lighting that is best and easiest to deal with.
This is for all plants. There might be one or two that are finicky
that we may run into, but 99.9% of the time, the needs are similar to
other plants.
At least with most of the 300 or so species we keep right now.
If that is not enough to play with, well, you must have a lot of tanks
and do a lot of work on planted tanks.

I think the average aquarist can figure things out themselves on this
issue.
If I can do it at moderate to low light consisently, and have
excellent color and health, is high light really required?
No.

Claus said most people's tanks had trace deficencies when he came
here, he did not say "not enough light". I'd been adding 5x the
recommended amounts of traces. People felt 0.1ppm of Fe was a good
amount at the time, I had 1.0ppm depending on which test kit used and
time after dosing etc.
People thought excess traces in and of themselves would cause algae.

These days, people add a lot more traces in their CO2 enriched plant
tanks.
Folks are slow to realize that less light is fine, 2-3w/gal is plenty
for any plant you might want. PC/MH's are going to have even more
light so you can go lower on these.

Regards,
Tom Barr

|| I know Claus and Kasslemann personally. So I have no issues going
|| head to head with them on the issue either. I've stated why their
|| observations occured.

lucky guy....

|| Now it's time for them or others to say why I have good color at low
|| light with red plants...................and why I can have red color
|| at deep depths but green at higher depths and why most red plants are
|| low light plants.

Here's a 2cent peice... in a 10g, no floro-3500k, my red tiger lotus, is
actually red.... 1.5wpg, whereas, im my 29g, 65W 6700kPCF, Co2, the same
plant, looks less red at times, almost purple other times...


|| I think the average aquarist can figure things out themselves on this
|| issue.
|| If I can do it at moderate to low light consisently, and have
|| excellent color and health, is high light really required?
|| No.

I'm beginning to see the light... or the lack of....

--
| RedForeman ©® fabricator and creator of the ratbike streetfighter!!!
| ==========================
| 2003 TRX450ES
| 1992 TRX-350 XX (For Sale)
| '98 Tacoma Ext Cab 4X4 Lifted....
| ==========================
| ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤° `°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø
| ((((º`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·.¸. ((((º ·´¯`·. , .·´¯`·.. ((((º
| for any questions you may have....
| www.gmail.com

"RedForeman ©®" wrote in message
...
|| I know Claus and Kasslemann personally. So I have no issues going
|| head to head with them on the issue either. I've stated why their
|| observations occured.

lucky guy....

|| Now it's time for them or others to say why I have good color at low
|| light with red plants...................and why I can have red color
|| at deep depths but green at higher depths and why m d plants are
|| low light plants.

Here's a 2cent peice... in a 10g, no floro-3500k, my red tiger lotus, is
actually red.... 1.5wpg, whereas, im my 29g, 65W 6700kPCF, Co2, the same
plant, looks less red at times, almost purple other times...


|| I think the average aquarist can figure things out themselves on this
|| issue.
|| If I can do it at moderate to low light consisently, and have
|| excellent color and health, is high light really required?
|| No.

I'm beginning to see the light... or the lack of....

--
| RedForeman ©® fabricator and creator of the ratbike streetfighter!!!
| ==========================
| 2003 TRX450ES
| 1992 TRX-350 XX (For Sale)
| '98 Tacoma Ext Cab 4X4 Lifted....
| ==========================
| ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤° `°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø
| ((((º`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·.¸. ((((º ·´¯`·. , .·´¯`·.. ((((º
| for any questions you may have....
| www.gmail.com



If I remember my biology correctly, don't red plants use a chemical other
than chlorophyll to absorb light, hence the different color. And apparently
this other chemical is less efficient, meaning you need more light to
produce the same amount of food/energy/etc. So if my memory serves me
right, this would explain why people would think that red plants need more
light, which they do if they have to produce the same amount of
food/energy/etc., but maybe they don't need to produce the same amount,
maybe they are fine with less.

Harry

Same experience here Red, my tiger lotuses, sunset hygro, ozelot and
various other red plants are far more colorful in low-medium light
tanks than high light. High light is really for growing certain types
of plants and to grow them fast, but for many plants that don't
require such strong lighting, low-medium light often gives best
results IME.

Giancarlo Podio


"RedForeman ©®" wrote in message ...
|| I know Claus and Kasslemann personally. So I have no issues going
|| head to head with them on the issue either. I've stated why their
|| observations occured.

lucky guy....

|| Now it's time for them or others to say why I have good color at low
|| light with red plants...................and why I can have red color
|| at deep depths but green at higher depths and why most red plants are
|| low light plants.

Here's a 2cent peice... in a 10g, no floro-3500k, my red tiger lotus, is
actually red.... 1.5wpg, whereas, im my 29g, 65W 6700kPCF, Co2, the same
plant, looks less red at times, almost purple other times...


|| I think the average aquarist can figure things out themselves on this
|| issue.
|| If I can do it at moderate to low light consisently, and have
|| excellent color and health, is high light really required?
|| No.

I'm beginning to see the light... or the lack of....

--
| RedForeman ©® fabricator and creator of the ratbike streetfighter!!!
| ==========================
| 2003 TRX450ES
| 1992 TRX-350 XX (For Sale)
| '98 Tacoma Ext Cab 4X4 Lifted....
| ==========================
| ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤° `°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø
| ((((º`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·.¸. ((((º ·´¯`·. , .·´¯`·.. ((((º
| for any questions you may have....
| www.gmail.com