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Yet another potassium question....
Heya folks... anyone got any ideas for cheap sources of bioavailable
potassium for a heavily-planted 50-gallon tank, along with approximate recommended doseage? Someone told me potassium permanganate, but I have serious doubts about this. |
#2
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"Dances With Ferrets" wrote in message om... Heya folks... anyone got any ideas for cheap sources of bioavailable potassium for a heavily-planted 50-gallon tank, along with approximate recommended doseage? Someone told me potassium permanganate, but I have serious doubts about this. I use Potash, aka Muriate of Potash or 0,0,60 fertilizer. I think it's also sold as salt substitute and road deicer. Watch out for other additives though. Mine came from the garden centre. I use it in the pond at 2 tsps per 500 gallons, so my 5 lb bag should do me a lifetime. |
#3
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#4
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"The Drunken Lord" wrote in message ... On 13 Oct 2004 19:02:35 -0700, (Dances With Ferrets) wrote: Heya folks... anyone got any ideas for cheap sources of bioavailable potassium for a heavily-planted 50-gallon tank, along with approximate recommended doseage? Someone told me potassium permanganate, but I have serious doubts about this. Cigarette ashes contain potash. Morton's Potassium. It is Potassium Chloride. Its used in water softeners. Local Sears store sells a 40lb bag for around $8 -- $10. Pure stuff. Use a plastic container, drop several chips into it. Add some water. Let it stand for a day of so. Most of the chips will dissolve. If they all dissolve add more chips until they do not dissolve any more. You now have the highest concentration of potassium in the water container. I use 10ml per day in a 140gal tank. Buzz |
#5
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"Dances With Ferrets" wrote in message
om... Heya folks... anyone got any ideas for cheap sources of bioavailable potassium for a heavily-planted 50-gallon tank, along with approximate recommended doseage? Someone told me potassium permanganate, but I have serious doubts about this. Potassium permanganate is a strong oxidizer and not suitable. I'd suggest Potassium nitrate (KNO3), which you can get at any hydroponics store. Dissolve 162g of the salt in 1 litre of water. 1ml of the resulting stock solution will raise the NO3 level of 100 litres of water by 1ppm. If your tank is heavily planted, chances are that you will have to supplement nitrate anyway, and the plants appreciate both the nitrate and the potassium. If you need to dose phosphates as well, try potassium dihydrogen phosphate (KH2PO4). You can also get it at hydroponics stores or at laboratory supply shops. Dissolve 14.2g of the salt in 1 litre of water. 1ml of the resulting stock solution will raise the PO4 level of 100 litres of water by 0.1ppm. (If you are having trouble weighing 14.2g, ask a friendly pharmacist for help, or make it 142g into 1 litre of water. The take 100 ml of this high-concentration solution and top it up to 1 litre, and you now have the 14.2g stock solution.) Shoot for around 8-10 ppm of nitrates and 0.3-0.4 ppm of phosphates in your tank, and watch the plants take off :-) BTW -- someone recently posted a useful link for dosing nitrates and phosphates. Here it is once mo http://www.xs4all.nl/~buddendo/aquarium/redfield.htm That's a nice tool to use after a water change when you need to work out how much nitrate and phosphate to add in order to replace the removed nutrients. Cheers, Michi. -- Michi Henning Ph: +61 4 1118-2700 ZeroC, Inc. http://www.zeroc.com |
#6
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http://www.xs4all.nl/~buddendo/aquarium/redfield.htm
That's a nice tool to use after a water change when you need to work out how much nitrate and phosphate to add in order to replace the removed nutrients. Cheers, Michi. Aquatic macrophytes are not marine phytoplankton which is what the Refield ratio is based on. the avwerage of most submersed plants is 10:1m, not 16:1. It also wrongly assumes BGA will be caused and cured within pretty narrow ranges for NO3 and PO4. I can assure you that I can have a 2ppm of PO4 and 5ppm of NO3 and never get BGA outbreaks. Likewise I can have a .2ppm of PO4 and a NO3 of 20 and never get any. BGA will appear if you drop the NO3 levels down very low and slow the plants uptake(perhaps of NH4 and thereby allowing the BGA an easy meal, they do not need hardly any N relative to plants) The reference is also not for FW, but rather phytoplankton. While I cannot read German/Dutch, I can tell from the names and it appears that they did not add plants to these experiments, only algae. They also assume that BGA, in this case Oscillitoria can fix N2 gas from the air, not true unless they have heterocyst. No heterocyst, no N2 fixing in this genus. I've never found any heterocyst in dozens of smaples sent from all over(everyone has this genus)and I also see no reason for them to be limited EVER in a FW planted tank, their needs are extremely small relative to the plants and they exist in a different niche. No hobbyist possesses the needed test procedures or kits to measure N limitation in this genus, it's in the low ppb range. Plants are a huge influence in terms of algae and phytoplankton, I did not see that plants were added in the reference anywhere. That is a key element if you want to argue this point. While their "good" range will work, their reasoning has some issues and the assumptions are large and the observations I've done over the years don't not show any signs of BGA nor could I ever confirm their conclusions/observatuions regarding their ratios and BGA outbreaks/presence. Add some KNO3 at 1/4 teaspoon per 20 gals 2x a week if you use CO2 or more depending on lighting/fish load. That alone will keep it away. See APD for older post about BGA and heterocyst. Regards, Tom Barr |
#7
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" wrote in message
om... Aquatic macrophytes are not marine phytoplankton which is what the Refield ratio is based on. the avwerage of most submersed plants is 10:1m, not 16:1. Ah, I didn't know that. So, we'd need to shoot for less nitrogen and more phosphate than this calculator recommends? It also wrongly assumes BGA will be caused and cured within pretty narrow ranges for NO3 and PO4. I can assure you that I can have a 2ppm of PO4 and 5ppm of NO3 and never get BGA outbreaks. Likewise I can have a .2ppm of PO4 and a NO3 of 20 and never get any. I believe that. Personally, I'm actually more interested in keeping other types of algae down. Black brush algae (the bane that caused me to tear down my tank eventually and start again) and, to a lesser extent, beard/staghorn and green thread algae. BGA will appear if you drop the NO3 levels down very low and slow the plants uptake(perhaps of NH4 and thereby allowing the BGA an easy meal, they do not need hardly any N relative to plants) Yes, seems that way. The Redfield ratio indicates that high phosphate and low nitrate favours BGA, and high nitrate and low phosphate favours green algae. (This agrees with my previous experiences -- I was battling green algae until I picked up on your recommendation to dose phosphate. Unfortunately, by the time I saw the truth, it was a bit too late to save the tank.) The reference is also not for FW, but rather phytoplankton. While I cannot read German/Dutch, I can tell from the names and it appears that they did not add plants to these experiments, only algae. Me bad -- I posted the wrong link. Here is an English version, which I'm sure will make a lot more sense to many people :-) http://www.xs4all.nl/~buddendo/aquar...dfield_eng.htm Add some KNO3 at 1/4 teaspoon per 20 gals 2x a week if you use CO2 or more depending on lighting/fish load. That alone will keep it away. See APD for older post about BGA and heterocyst. I've just (a week ago) set up the new incarnation of my tank. (150gal nominal, actual water content 130gal.) I've been following your posts on APD about whether to fertilize a freshly set up tank and started dosing KH2PO4 and KNO3 from day one as you recommend. So far, things are looking good. I've been aiming for around 10ppm NO3 and 0.5ppm PO4. (It's difficult to be precise with the test kits that are commonly available in Australia -- the resolution isn't good enough. It turns out that LaMotte have an Australian distributor though, so I think I'll get the high-resolution LaMotte NO3 and PO4 kits, so I can control the ratio more precisely.) A very small amount of green hair algae is currently present in the tank, and a little beard/staghorn algae, which I suspect I imported with the plants initially. I've been removing what I can find of those manually. For the time being, the only fish are a bunch of Otocinclus Affinis that are not getting any food other than what they can find for themselves, in the hope that they will stay on top of any minor algae growth. We shall see... :-) Cheers, Michi. -- Michi Henning Ph: +61 4 1118-2700 ZeroC, Inc. http://www.zeroc.com |
#8
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Ah, I didn't know that. So, we'd need to shoot for less nitrogen and
more phosphate than this calculator recommends? Well does not really matter from a practical standpoint but might be more convient I suppose. The main thing is not to allow something to become plant limiting. You are not going to beat the algae through nutrient limitation, you can try and you can try. I believe that. Personally, I'm actually more interested in keeping other types of algae down. Black brush algae (the bane that caused me to tear down my tank eventually and start again) and, to a lesser extent, beard/staghorn and green thread algae. Ahh well, here's your issue: CO2. Directly poor to variations of good to low CO2 levels is a great way to culture BBA. Poor CO2 is 90% of all algal issues for folks using CO2 gas. Keep the CO2 20-30ppm during the entire lighting peroid, check pH at night(PM) and in the early AM. Make sure the CO2 is good during both these high/low points. Yes, seems that way. The Redfield ratio indicates that high phosphate and low nitrate favours BGA, and high nitrate and low phosphate favours green algae. (This agrees with my previous experiences -- I was battling green algae until I picked up on your recommendation to dose phosphate. Unfortunately, by the time I saw the truth, it was a bit too late to save the tank.) Well here's what happened with your tank: You added PO4, this drove the NO3 uptake rate faster, so the NO23 dropped to zero and the plants growth slowed down significantly. BGA appeared. If you had added more PO4 and KNO3, then the BGA would not have occured. The ratio in and of itself had nothing to do with it. I'd tell you if it did, I promise It was the actual levels(limited NO3) Me bad -- I posted the wrong link. Here is an English version, which I'm sure will make a lot more sense to many people :-) http://www.xs4all.nl/~buddendo/aquar...dfield_eng.htm No, you did good, the English version is up, but the reference for the article cited is in German. Add some KNO3 at 1/4 teaspoon per 20 gals 2x a week if you use CO2 or more depending on lighting/fish load. That alone will keep it away. See APD for older post about BGA and heterocyst. I've just (a week ago) set up the new incarnation of my tank. (150gal nominal, actual water content 130gal.) I've been following your posts on APD about whether to fertilize a freshly set up tank and started dosing KH2PO4 and KNO3 from day one as you recommend. So far, things are looking good. I'd do this: COP2, then check it again and again till you go nuts and geel very comfy with it being 30ppm or so. Generally in 99.99% of all cases, the CO2 will appear lower than the actual concentration if there is an errorin testing or some other acid, stray current in the water. That is the first order of business anytime you see algae or have a growth issue with plants. Poor CO2 will get any and everyone from Amano down to the newbie, to myself. I've been aiming for around 10ppm NO3 and 0.5ppm PO4. (It's difficult to be precise with the test kits that are commonly available in Australia -- the resolution isn't good enough. It turns out that LaMotte have an Australian distributor though, so I think I'll get the high-resolution LaMotte NO3 and PO4 kits, so I can control the ratio more precisely.) A very small amount of green hair algae is currently present in the tank, and a little beard/staghorn algae, which I suspect I imported with the plants initially. I've been removing what I can find of those manually. For the time being, the only fish are a bunch of Otocinclus Affinis that are not getting any food other than what they can find for themselves, in the hope that they will stay on top of any minor algae growth. We shall see... :-) You can do the estimative index and not bother testing if you wish, or you can control it and double check your estimations and find the rates of uptake. You can also use the plants themselves as indicators. Eg Riccia pearling is great for CO2. I'd do this for your tank: Trim all the alagae I can, prune, vac off any detritus on the gravel surface etc,l net out any left overs. Fluff the plants good. Then do a 50-70% water change. Add the macros back: 1.5 teaspoons of KNO3 1/8+ teaspoon of KH2PO4 The following day: 30mls of traces Continue this routine till your 7 th day and repeat. Dose the macros and traces every other day alternating. If you have moderate or lower light, you can do about 25-50% less dosing. But the levels I suggested will be certain to address any non limiting needs you might have at any light level. Biggest issue for now: CO2. Regards, Tom Barr Cheers, Michi. |
#9
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" wrote in message
om... You are not going to beat the algae through nutrient limitation, you can try and you can try. Yes. You are preaching to the converted :-) By the time that nutrients are so low that algae won't grow anymore, the plants will be long dead and, in the process of decaying, produce more nutrients for the algae ;-) Black brush algae (the bane that caused me to tear down my tank eventually and start again) and, to a lesser extent, beard/staghorn and green thread algae. Ahh well, here's your issue: CO2. Directly poor to variations of good to low CO2 levels is a great way to culture BBA. Poor CO2 is 90% of all algal issues for folks using CO2 gas. I can believe that. I had ongoing problems with my CO2 system (leaks, stuck needle valve, losing calibration on the probe, etc.) So, when it came to widely fluctuating CO2 levels, I was your man. I've since replaced the CO2 system with something decent, so that part of the equation is well and truly under control now. (BTW, if anyone is looking to buy a CO2 system, stay clear of the Eheim one -- it's rubbish.) Keep the CO2 20-30ppm during the entire lighting peroid, check pH at night(PM) and in the early AM. Make sure the CO2 is good during both these high/low points. I have 4 degrees KH, and the CO2 system is set to a pH of 6.8. The hysteresis on the controller is 0.1 degrees, so the actual value fluctuates between 6.75 and 6.85. (The manufacturer says that the probe is accurate to 0.01 degrees after calibration.) Looking at the CO2 chart at http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/CO2/kh-ph-co2-chart.html, I guess I could change the set point down to 6.75 without getting more than 30ppm. I might just do that. (In fact, I'll do just about anything to keep BBA away...) Yes, seems that way. The Redfield ratio indicates that high phosphate and low nitrate favours BGA, and high nitrate and low phosphate favours green algae. (This agrees with my previous experiences -- I was battling green algae until I picked up on your recommendation to dose phosphate. Unfortunately, by the time I saw the truth, it was a bit too late to save the tank.) Well here's what happened with your tank: You added PO4, this drove the NO3 uptake rate faster, so the NO23 dropped to zero and the plants growth slowed down significantly. BGA appeared. Actually, no. I kept dosing NO3 as well, and kept it in the 10ppm range. But, by the time I started that, the brush algae were already too well established to get rid of again (and I still had the problems with the old CO2 system). I've just (a week ago) set up the new incarnation of my tank. (150gal nominal, actual water content 130gal.) I've been following your posts on APD about whether to fertilize a freshly set up tank and started dosing KH2PO4 and KNO3 from day one as you recommend. So far, things are looking good. I'd do this: COP2, then check it again and again till you go nuts and geel very comfy with it being 30ppm or so. Generally in 99.99% of all cases, the CO2 will appear lower than the actual concentration if there is an errorin testing or some other acid, stray current in the water. Well, I can determine KH to an accuracy of +-0.5 degrees, and I can determine pH to an accuracy of +-0.01 degrees, so the error in CO2 levels is fairly small. I can certainly keep it in the 25-30ppm range with confidence. That is the first order of business anytime you see algae or have a growth issue with plants. Poor CO2 will get any and everyone from Amano down to the newbie, to myself. Well, my previous experiences seem to confirm this, so I will take your word as the gospel on the matter ;-) You can do the estimative index and not bother testing if you wish, or you can control it and double check your estimations and find the rates of uptake. You can also use the plants themselves as indicators. Eg Riccia pearling is great for CO2. Right now, the phosphate is disappearing about as quickly as I pour it in. Over four days, level dropped from 0.5ppm to below 0.1ppm.just barely detectable with my test kit, below less than 0.1ppm. Nitrate levels seem to be dropping less quickly, from about 10ppm to about 6ppm over the same period. The tank can't possibly have cycled yet, having set up for only a week, so I guess things are still finding their balance. I'll keep measuring and adjusting NO3 to around 10ppm and PO4 to around 0.5ppm and see how things shape up (all the while keeping CO2 at 20-30ppm, course ;-) Dose the macros and traces every other day alternating. I've been using Duplaplant 24 every day at the suggested dosage. Would you recommend dosing DP24 only every second day? If you have moderate or lower light, you can do about 25-50% less dosing. No, it's fairly high light -- two 150W metal halides and two 36W fluorescent tubes, for 10 hours per day. That comes to about 2.8W per gallon. Biggest issue for now: CO2. Definitely got it, thanks! :-) Cheers, Michi. -- Michi Henning Ph: +61 4 1118-2700 ZeroC, Inc. http://www.zeroc.com |
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