"Happy'Cam'per" wrote in message
...

Where do you think it came from in the first place? Once you dose those
anti'B's you're going to kill alll the Cyano cells but the conditions in
your tank will remain the same, they will return once the AB's wear off.

According to Tom Barr, a common cause of BGA outbreaks are too low
levels of NO3. Do the five day black-out thing, turning off CO2 during that
time, and don't fertilize for those five days either. Then do a large (50%)
water change, and dose 10-15ppm NO3. Keep CO2 in the 20-30ppm range.
Apparently, that puts paid to BGA.

Cheers,

Michi.
--
Michi Henning Ph: +61 4 1118-2700
ZeroC, Inc. http://www.zeroc.com

"Scott" wrote in message
news
I only recently got rid of the blue green algae in my aquarium, after a
year
of it growing inch's in size every day. I tried blacking the aquarium out
five or six times. each time the blue green algae disappeared after three
or
four days, but a week or two later it always returned. I put that down to
not doing them for long enough but I even tried a six day blackout, and a
four day blackout followed by a three day blackout, two days later. and I
wrapped my tank up in tin foil, towels, sleeping bags, and all sorts to
keep
the light out.

I finally got rid of it a month ago by using Maracyn. it seems to be gone
for good this time. from what I can tell from my experiences with blue
green
algae it doesn't matter what the water parameters it will still have
enough
nutrients to be able to grow. it seems to be more to do with bad luck than
anything else, if you get it in your tank.


Well the blackout worked for me!!!!!!!!!!
You must have that same tenacious new species of Cyano that Eric has... :-)
--
**So long, and thanks for all the fish!**

"Eric Schreiber" eric at ericschreiber dot com wrote in message
...
wrote:

Thiose comments are patently incorrect. Nothing personal, but they
are. It's that simple.

I appreciate your strong opinion, but I find equally strong opinions in
the other direction. The Krib has discussions on the subject, and I
found numerous mentions via Google as well.





yup, I have seen numerous posters saying the same thing in various plant
forums and also in this newsgroup as I have been lurking. Blackout had no
affects at all. But some people just can't seem to believe that just
because something seemed to work for them does not mean it is written in
stone and works all the time.

--

Margolis
http://web.archive.org/web/200302152...qs/AGQ2FAQ.htm
http://www.unrealtower.org/faq

"Margolis" wrote in message
...
"Eric Schreiber" eric at ericschreiber dot com wrote in message
yup, I have seen numerous posters saying the same thing in various plant
forums and also in this newsgroup as I have been lurking. Blackout had no
affects at all. But some people just can't seem to believe that just
because something seemed to work for them does not mean it is written in
stone and works all the time.


Tom suggested 'a process to follow'. Surely that cannot be that difficult to
comprehend. Follow the instructions to the tee and I bet my ass it will cure
your BGA problem. It's worked for dozens if not hundreds of folks. Follow
the directions!!!!!!
--
**So long, and thanks for all the fish!**

I'm surprised they haven't made a horror movie about the stuff that was in
my aquarium.

"Happy'Cam'per" wrote in message
...
"Scott" wrote in message
news
I only recently got rid of the blue green algae in my aquarium, after a
year
of it growing inch's in size every day. I tried blacking the aquarium out
five or six times. each time the blue green algae disappeared after three
or
four days, but a week or two later it always returned. I put that down to
not doing them for long enough but I even tried a six day blackout, and a
four day blackout followed by a three day blackout, two days later. and I
wrapped my tank up in tin foil, towels, sleeping bags, and all sorts to
keep
the light out.

I finally got rid of it a month ago by using Maracyn. it seems to be gone
for good this time. from what I can tell from my experiences with blue
green
algae it doesn't matter what the water parameters it will still have
enough
nutrients to be able to grow. it seems to be more to do with bad luck
than
anything else, if you get it in your tank.


Well the blackout worked for me!!!!!!!!!!
You must have that same tenacious new species of Cyano that Eric has...
:-)
--
**So long, and thanks for all the fish!**

"Happy'Cam'per" wrote in message
...


Tom suggested 'a process to follow'. Surely that cannot be that difficult
to
comprehend. Follow the instructions to the tee and I bet my ass it will
cure
your BGA problem. It's worked for dozens if not hundreds of folks. Follow
the directions!!!!!!
--
**So long, and thanks for all the fish!**



I'm not saying that if you follow his specific instructions step by step
that it won't help at all, but there is never any guarantee. But this
arguing was about blackout specifically, not all of the additional steps
that Tom lined out. It was just his comment that implied that anybody who
said blackout didn't work were lying, and then his suggestion that nobody
ever said that it didn't work that got to me and I think is what also got to
Eric. That sounded like classic denial and like he was calling Eric a liar
for saying that others have said it didn't work for them. Tom has
definately helped a lot of people here, but the tone at the beginning of
that last post just struck the wrong chord. I didn't really mean to offend
anybody, even though I usually end up doing that anyway.

--

Margolis
http://web.archive.org/web/200302152...qs/AGQ2FAQ.htm
http://www.unrealtower.org/faq

Happy'Cam'per wrote:

Where do you think it came from in the first place? Once you dose
those anti'B's you're going to kill alll the Cyano cells but the
conditions in your tank will remain the same, they will return once
the AB's wear off.

By extension, the same thing will result no matter what course of
action one takes.

--
Eric Schreiber
www.ericschreiber.com

Happy'Cam'per wrote:

How old is that info on the Krib, and how qualified were those ppl
making the statements?

Beats me. How qualified is Tom? Again, beats me.


Oh Come on Eric, I think its my turn this time to tell you to get a
thicker skin.

My skin is plenty thick - I'm not in the *least* bit offended or upset
by anything Tom said. I'm simply not interested in pumping a lot of
noise into the newsgroup over something I'm not emotionally invested in.


Tom is offering you perfectly fine advice and you're throwing it back
in his face, he offered to help you out and then you
get defensive!

On the contrary, I've already affirmed that if the antibiotics don't
work out, I will be trying the method he suggested.


--
Eric Schreiber
www.ericschreiber.com

Margolis wrote:

yup, I have seen numerous posters saying the same thing in various
plant forums and also in this newsgroup as I have been lurking.
Blackout had no affects at all. But some people just can't seem to
believe that just because something seemed to work for them does not
mean it is written in stone and works all the time.

I suspect that part of the problem is the many kinds of cyanobacteria
that exist. Happy Camper alluded to "The type of Cyano that infects OUR
fish tanks", and I have no doubt that he's right for a particular
common species. I don't think it's at all a stretch, though, to
consider that there might be other species with different nutrient
needs affecting fresh water aquaria.


--
Eric Schreiber
www.ericschreiber.com

Happy'Cam'per wrote:

Well the blackout worked for me!!!!!!!!!!
You must have that same tenacious new species of Cyano that Eric
has...

I haven't yet tried blackout myself. I've been following a regimen of
aggressive cleaning and water change, and also adding Najas to the tank
in an attempt to rob the BGA of nutrients. I didn't attempt a blackout
because of the number of posts I read by people for whom it didn't work.

If the anti-bacterial approach fails, I will certainly give Tom's
method a try.

--
Eric Schreiber
www.ericschreiber.com

If you follow it step by step....
Add the necessary nutrients in the correct proportion, etc....
you won't be disappointed...

I had BGA once. I tried several different blackout methods, and it finally
worked only after I did Tom's recommendation step by step. If you don't do
the water changes, or don't add the KNO3 like he suggests, etc.... you will
fail.

This has been my experience at least. I don't know much about the subject,
but I know this did work in my tank.

--
Craig Brye
University of Phoenix Online

"Eric Schreiber" eric at ericschreiber dot com wrote in message
news
Happy'Cam'per wrote:

Well the blackout worked for me!!!!!!!!!!
You must have that same tenacious new species of Cyano that Eric
has...

I haven't yet tried blackout myself. I've been following a regimen of
aggressive cleaning and water change, and also adding Najas to the tank
in an attempt to rob the BGA of nutrients. I didn't attempt a blackout
because of the number of posts I read by people for whom it didn't work.

If the anti-bacterial approach fails, I will certainly give Tom's
method a try.

--
Eric Schreiber
www.ericschreiber.com

BGA are(the species we deal with), as are all algae/plants, totally
dependent on light.

BGA are not plants, they are bacteria. Though photosynthesis is the
preferred mode of nutrition, it is not the only method. (Palinska,
Katarzyna A; Horgan, William J and Krumbein, Wolfgang, E (May 2002)
Cyanobacteria. In: Nature Encyclopedia of Life Sciences. London: Nature
Publishing Group.)

The species that infest our tanks is specifically Oscillitoria
splendens.
If you can show me a reference that says this species of BGA is able
to survive without light(or the genus), I'm all ears.

I specifically qualified my statement above as well(the species we
deal with).
There are a few plants and even a few species of algae that are
parasitic(some don't even have any chloroplast)on other
organisms(therefore indirectly dependent on light), but none that grow
in our tanks, and that is what we are discussing, not eveything on the
planet.

Antibiotics do work, my point is not that Myacin does or does not
work, I just offers a better method that takes 3 days and is 100%
free and addresses the long term problem that you have.

Well, the ehtromycin is effectively free, since I already had it on
hand. My supply expires in a few months, so it's not as though I'm
likely to lose use of it by employing it against BGA.

Nope, so go for it. When you get another species algae, you cannot use
EM against, then what? You kill one and do not correct the problem,
another will come in. While the killing part can be done both ways,
the fixing it so it does not come back part is another matter that is
never discussed in advice with EM.
Not everyone has EM sitting around, not everyone can get EM. Everyone
can use a blackout. KNO3 is needed to help the plants grow, EM methods
never suggest this.

Ok, thanks, but I'm REALLY not interested in a holy war. You've clearly
got a lot of emotional investment in the subject, and I'm afraid I
really don't care enough to get into a protracted discussion over it.

The proof is in the pudding, you try it, then you'll know.
I know EM works. I know Blackout works and I'm the only person that's
suggested an effective method of prevention and culture of BGA.
There's no arguement or issue, the experiment is repeatable with both
methods if you try it.
You have not tried this but you wanted to suggest otherwise based on
acendotal support rather than practical controlled methodology. The
Krib and the other folks did not do that. I know they did not becuase
they would have found the same thing. I've done this 20 or more times
again and again. It's not just for phycologist either, any aquarist
can repeat the same things I've done and support that type of
investigation. But if you have not done that, then it seems odd. But
I wanted to know, so now I do so I can and do speak with confidence
about the issue.

You are new to weeds/plants/algae, I've very old hat(30+ years now)
and work on weeds professionally and did my Master's on algae and
BGA's in FW.

I'm not asking for you to believe me really, only to try it and see
for yourself that it works, or if not, why it didn't.
I totally understand your views and that you just want to fix the
problem and move on as well. I was new once also and had lots of
opposing views. I got ****ed off and figure it out for myself.

Now I've figured out many things that have really helped a lot of
folks grow plants better because of this.

If you want to suggest my experimenting on BGA is flawed, incorrect, I
overlooked something or questionable etc without supporting your
contention, you will get flack, it's nothing personal at you, it's
about the issue of the blackout and BGA. I truly welcome critical
review and questions.

If your only goal is to kill algae, you'll keep having more algae in
the future.
Just a different species.

The focus should be on the plants, EM methods never address that, just
a method to kill BGA. Focus on the plant's needs and you will have far
less algae/BGa issues in the future. Specifically KNO3 dosing for EM.

Don't worry, I ain't this crotchety in person

Regards,
Tom Barr

wrote:

Nope, so go for it. When you get another species algae, you cannot use
EM against, then what? You kill one and do not correct the problem,
another will come in.

You're making an unfounded assumption about my plans. Perhaps not an
unreasonable one, but I assure you I don't plan to just continuously
treat with EM.


You have not tried this but you wanted to suggest otherwise based on
acendotal support rather than practical controlled methodology.

Forgive me, but from where I'm sitting (e.g. some random guy reading
Usenet comments from some other random guy) all suggestions are
anecdotal. Even yours, since I don't know you from Adam. While I
suppose Usenet might be considered 'peer reviewed', I think you'll
agree that it lacks scientific rigor.


What I would suggest to you is that you put together a detailed
document describing your method step by step, its benefits (and
drawbacks, if any), and the methodology you used to arrive at it. Then
put it on a web site so that people will have a better opportunity to
review and understand it. If you don't have a site of your own, I'd be
happy to put it up on mine, though it would be far better off on one of
the 'major players' sites, like Netmax's or Chucks.


I'm not asking for you to believe me really, only to try it and see
for yourself that it works, or if not, why it didn't.

As I mentioned before, I intend to try your approach should the
anti-bacterial method fail.


If you want to suggest my experimenting on BGA is flawed, incorrect, I
overlooked something or questionable etc without supporting your
contention, you will get flack

I don't have a lab at my disposal, so like many hobbyists I rely on
internet research for things to try. A Google search turned up lots of
people stating that blackout doesn't work, that's all. No mention of
your method (which goes well beyond simple blackout) was made or
implied.


The focus should be on the plants, EM methods never address that, just
a method to kill BGA. Focus on the plant's needs and you will have far
less algae/BGa issues in the future. Specifically KNO3 dosing for EM.

Question - you've mention 'the plants' several times. You are referring
to higher plants, not algae, correct? As in 'planted tank'? If so, I
think I mentioned that the tank where I have this problem is not
planted (except that I tossed in some Najas in an attempt to rob the
BGA of nutrients). Any specific suggestions for long-term prevention of
BGA in a non-planted tank?


Don't worry, I ain't this crotchety in person

Most of us aren't. Oddly, I'm told that I am. Years of practice.

--
Eric Schreiber
www.ericschreiber.com

"Eric Schreiber" eric at ericschreiber dot com wrote in message ...
wrote:

Nope, so go for it. When you get another species algae, you cannot use
EM against, then what? You kill one and do not correct the problem,
another will come in.

You're making an unfounded assumption about my plans. Perhaps not an
unreasonable one, but I assure you I don't plan to just continuously
treat with EM.

I know
I try to help folks grow plants, not kill algae.
Then they don't have to kill algae.
It's deceptively simple.

You have not tried this but you wanted to suggest otherwise based on
acendotal support rather than practical controlled methodology.

Forgive me, but from where I'm sitting (e.g. some random guy reading
Usenet comments from some other random guy) all suggestions are
anecdotal. Even yours, since I don't know you from Adam. While I
suppose Usenet might be considered 'peer reviewed', I think you'll
agree that it lacks scientific rigor.

Yep, big Bertha's spam and the trolls are far from rigor

What I would suggest to you is that you put together a detailed
document describing your method step by step, its benefits (and
drawbacks, if any), and the methodology you used to arrive at it. Then
put it on a web site so that people will have a better opportunity to
review and understand it. If you don't have a site of your own, I'd be
happy to put it up on mine, though it would be far better off on one of
the 'major players' sites, like Netmax's or Chucks.

It's up in many places, perhaps not this particular issue, but it's
been well argued on the APD, AQ, APC which is more rigorous than many
any other list.

I've spoken on plants with Amano so I'm no Adam.
I know my weeds and algae.

I tend to repeat rather than leave links.

I'm not asking for you to believe me really, only to try it and see
for yourself that it works, or if not, why it didn't.

As I mentioned before, I intend to try your approach should the
anti-bacterial method fail.

I doubt it will, my point is to add KNO3 after treatment or even
during treatment and thereafter to improve plant growth.

Algae/BGA's are used as bioindicators in my field and are
environmental target organisms for pollution and other water quality
indices.

They also can tell me what the nutrient patterns are in someone's tank
without seeing the tank. Freaks people out

If you want to suggest my experimenting on BGA is flawed, incorrect, I
overlooked something or questionable etc without supporting your
contention, you will get flack

I don't have a lab at my disposal, so like many hobbyists I rely on
internet research for things to try. A Google search turned up lots of
people stating that blackout doesn't work, that's all. No mention of
your method (which goes well beyond simple blackout) was made or
implied.

I tend not to let an issue(not personality) go till I have it figured
out. I understand a person just searching the web for info. I have a
ton of experience, education and it's my profession(Weeds and algae
for the State of CA) and have met hundreds, perhaps 1000's of folks in
your shoes.
I hate seeing folks suffer and there are many myths about plants.

Question - you've mention 'the plants' several times. You are referring
to higher plants, not algae, correct?

Yes, embryophytes if you want a precise term.

As in 'planted tank'? If so, I
think I mentioned that the tank where I have this problem is not
planted (except that I tossed in some Najas in an attempt to rob the
BGA of nutrients). Any specific suggestions for long-term prevention of
BGA in a non-planted tank?

Easy, chelated copper will kill all algae and many
parasites/Oomycota(ich etc).
Less light, more cleaning.

I did 50% weekly water changes for my FW fish only tanks religiously.
Never got it.
You can increase aeration/current also.

I found I could culture Pithora, a beautiful bright green hair algae
that will grow on wood and rocks under intense light and
aeration/current.
This makes good fish food and also prevents other species from
establishing.

Try water sprite also, it's a much better "competitor" since it
floats, has access to CO2/light, blocks the light better(plant's main
competitive advantage over algae) and grows like mad.
That plus some current/water changes etc works well.

Water sprite is generally easier to sell and get a fair price for vs
Najas.

Don't worry, I ain't this crotchety in person

Most of us aren't. Oddly, I'm told that I am. Years of practice.

"Well rippened"

Regards,
Tom Barr

wrote:

I try to help folks grow plants, not kill algae.
Then they don't have to kill algae.

Works like a charm in my planted tank. I do have a small amount of
algae, but nothing that the residents can't keep up with. I've had
remarkably good luck with that tank, considering I started it as a
complete noob.

Easy, chelated copper will kill all algae and many
parasites/Oomycota(ich etc).

Despite the evidence to the contrary (eg, me dumping antibiotics into
my tank), I try to avoid chemical treatments as much as possible. I do
have some Mardel CopperSafe here, but nowhere on the dang label does it
indication precisely what it is. I'll have to research.

You can increase aeration/current also.

That sort of thing tends to **** off my bettas

Try water sprite also, it's a much better "competitor" since it
floats, has access to CO2/light, blocks the light better(plant's main
competitive advantage over algae) and grows like mad.

I came across a tiny amount of duckweed (scooped from a nearby river,
washed thoroughly). I put four plantlets in the tank a week ago, and
now I've easily got a dozen. Should work well as a substitute.


--
Eric Schreiber
www.ericschreiber.com