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#1
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Test kits for planted tanks
Hi I am kinda new to planted aquariums, and I was wondering what are the
essential test kits that I will need for planted tanks. Thanks in advance for any help. |
#2
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#3
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- KH and pH (those two allow you to determine CO2 levels)
How does one determine CO2 levels with the KH & PH values? Thanks in advance, I'm very curious about this. |
#4
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" Fluff wrote in message
... - KH and pH (those two allow you to determine CO2 levels) How does one determine CO2 levels with the KH & PH values? Thanks in advance, I'm very curious about this. Have a look at http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_co2chart.htm for a good explanation. Cheers, Michi. -- Michi Henning Ph: +61 4 1118-2700 ZeroC, Inc. http://www.zeroc.com |
#5
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" Fluff wrote in message
... - KH and pH (those two allow you to determine CO2 levels) How does one determine CO2 levels with the KH & PH values? Thanks in advance, I'm very curious about this. one thing to remember about this though is that these calculations are only accurate if you are adding co2 to the tank. If you are not adding extra co2 then these charts and calculations don't work well -- Margolis http://web.archive.org/web/200302152...qs/AGQ2FAQ.htm http://www.unrealtower.org/faq |
#6
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"Margolis" wrote in message
... " Fluff wrote in message ... - KH and pH (those two allow you to determine CO2 levels) How does one determine CO2 levels with the KH & PH values? Thanks in advance, I'm very curious about this. one thing to remember about this though is that these calculations are only accurate if you are adding co2 to the tank. If you are not adding extra co2 then these charts and calculations don't work well Huh? Why would the table not be accurate when not adding CO2? The ratio of pH/KH/CO2 is fixed by physical processes, whether CO2 is being added or not. The only thing that can throw this out, as far as I know, is if the water contains substantial amounts of non-carbonate buffer, such as phosphate. But that is not normally the case. Otherwise, the table is accurate, whether you inject CO2 or not. Cheers, Michi. -- Michi Henning Ph: +61 4 1118-2700 ZeroC, Inc. http://www.zeroc.com |
#7
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"Michi Henning" wrote in message
... Huh? Why would the table not be accurate when not adding CO2? The ratio of pH/KH/CO2 is fixed by physical processes, whether CO2 is being added or not. The only thing that can throw this out, as far as I know, is if the water contains substantial amounts of non-carbonate buffer, such as phosphate. But that is not normally the case. Otherwise, the table is accurate, whether you inject CO2 or not. It doesn't work properly if you are not adding co2 because it means that there are other buffers at work if your ph is lower than it can naturally be with a given kh. If you have a tank that has a kh of 4° with a ph of 7 you would have 13ppm of co2 going by the charts. But in reality this cannot happen under any circumstances unless you are adding co2. No matter what your ph and kh are, your co2 is going to max out around 2ppm. That is why I say the chart and calculations are only correct if you are adding extra co2 -- Margolis http://web.archive.org/web/200302152...qs/AGQ2FAQ.htm http://www.unrealtower.org/faq |
#8
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"Margolis" wrote in message
... It doesn't work properly if you are not adding co2 because it means that there are other buffers at work if your ph is lower than it can naturally be with a given kh. If you have a tank that has a kh of 4° with a ph of 7 you would have 13ppm of co2 going by the charts. But in reality this cannot happen under any circumstances unless you are adding co2. I agree. If you have 4 degrees KH and no other unusual buffers in the water (which is usually the case), you will measure a pH of 7.8, which is equivalent to 2ppm. So, there is nothing wrong with the chart, and the chart is correct whether you are adding CO2 or not. The only thing that can throw the chart off is other buffers, such as phosphate. But to make a difference, PO4 levels have to be way up, in the 1ppm range, which is rarely the case. By the way, Krause recommends a different method to measure CO2 content. That method is insensitive to the presence of unusual buffers. Step 1: Take small water sample with some pH indicator. Stick a straw into the water and exhale through the straw into the water sample for two or three minutes. This sets the CO2 level at 60ppm. Take note of the pH reading. Step 2: Take another water sample with some pH indicator and run the hose from an air pump into the sampe for a few minutes. This sets the CO2 level at 0.5ppm. Take note of the pH reading. Step 3: Measure the pH of the tank water. The CO2 content is proportional to that reading. As an example, if you measure pH 6.0 with the first sample, and pH 8.0 with the second sample, a tank pH of 7 corresponds to 30ppm CO2, regardless of any buffers that might otherwise confuse a CO2 test or distort the charted values. Cheers, Michi. -- Michi Henning Ph: +61 4 1118-2700 ZeroC, Inc. http://www.zeroc.com |
#9
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"Michi Henning" wrote in message
... I agree. If you have 4 degrees KH and no other unusual buffers in the water (which is usually the case), you will measure a pH of 7.8, which is equivalent to 2ppm. So, there is nothing wrong with the chart, and the chart is correct whether you are adding CO2 or not. The only thing that can throw the chart off is other buffers, such as phosphate. But to make a difference, PO4 levels have to be way up, in the 1ppm range, which is rarely the case. By the way, Krause recommends a different method to measure CO2 content. That method is insensitive to the presence of unusual buffers. Step 1: Take small water sample with some pH indicator. Stick a straw into the water and exhale through the straw into the water sample for two or three minutes. This sets the CO2 level at 60ppm. Take note of the pH reading. Step 2: Take another water sample with some pH indicator and run the hose from an air pump into the sampe for a few minutes. This sets the CO2 level at 0.5ppm. Take note of the pH reading. Step 3: Measure the pH of the tank water. The CO2 content is proportional to that reading. As an example, if you measure pH 6.0 with the first sample, and pH 8.0 with the second sample, a tank pH of 7 corresponds to 30ppm CO2, regardless of any buffers that might otherwise confuse a CO2 test or distort the charted values. You keep saying that having these other phosphate buffers is not normally the case in an aquarium. But it seems to me that the reality is it is more common than not. Most people don't run RO water with just the proper minerals added. Most people start with tap water and then add phosphate and other buffers to it to dechlorinate it and alter the ph to what they think it should be. Not to mention all of the water treatment facilities that add phosphates to the water. Then you have the people that see these charts and think all they have to do is lower the ph to raise the co2 level. So it is safest just say the chart isn't accurate unless you are adding co2, imho. If you aren't adding co2, then you don't need the chart, since you won't have more than 2-3ppm of co2 anyway ;o) -- Margolis http://web.archive.org/web/200302152...qs/AGQ2FAQ.htm http://www.unrealtower.org/faq |
#10
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"Margolis" wrote in message
... You keep saying that having these other phosphate buffers is not normally the case in an aquarium. But it seems to me that the reality is it is more common than not. Most people don't run RO water with just the proper minerals added. Most people start with tap water and then add phosphate and other buffers to it to dechlorinate it and alter the ph to what they think it should be. Not to mention all of the water treatment facilities that add phosphates to the water. Hmmm... I don't know many tanks with phosphates above 1ppm. And, at that level, the phosphates don't distort the CO2 chart to any noticeable degree. Then you have the people that see these charts and think all they have to do is lower the ph to raise the co2 level. So it is safest just say the chart isn't accurate unless you are adding co2, imho. Ah, OK, I'm with you now -- I agree. The KH is a constant for the purpose of this discussion, and the pH is the result of the amount of CO2 in the water, that is, the CO2 is the *cause*, and the pH is the *effect*. I agree that, if people think they can lower the pH to get more CO2, they are misguided. The *only* way to get more CO2 is to put CO2 into the tank. Products that otherwise tinker with the pH to artificially lower it (such as "pH Down" and similar) don't do a thing to the CO2 level. And, if such products are used, the chart will indeed be way off. BTW -- any artificial manipulation of the pH level with acids or bases is generally a bad idea because it can lead to a very unnatural ion balance. The pH is the result of the level of carbonate hardness, so the best way to target a particular pH is to raise the KH by adding calcium carbonate, or to lower the KH by diluting with RO water. If the GH in degrees is roughly the same as the KH, then the ion balance in the water is generally OK too. If you aren't adding co2, then you don't need the chart, since you won't have more than 2-3ppm of co2 anyway ;o) Ah, yes :-) Actually, according to Krause, the equilibrium level is closer to 0.5ppm. But the precise figure is academic, I suspect, because 0.5ppm and 2-3ppm are very nearly the same when it comes to growing plants: too little. Cheers, Michi. -- Michi Henning Ph: +61 4 1118-2700 ZeroC, Inc. http://www.zeroc.com |
#11
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"Margolis" wrote in message
... You keep saying that having these other phosphate buffers is not normally the case in an aquarium. But it seems to me that the reality is it is more common than not. Most people don't run RO water with just the proper minerals added. Most people start with tap water and then add phosphate and other buffers to it to dechlorinate it Sodium Thiosulfate has no PO4 in it. PO4 does not dechlorinate. PO4 is used for corrosion control in drinking water supplies in some places, or as acid "buffers" for Discus tanks etc. Better to use RO and low KH rather than acid "buffers". is lower the ph to raise the co2 level. So it is safest just say the chart isn't accurate unless you are adding co2, imho. I agree that you do not need the chart with non CO2 planted tanks, but it's still accurate. Even if you have ann acid present, there is a way around it to get a measurement that is reasonably okay. People often hear to lower their pH to get the range of CO2 in their tanks. But they should onl;y add CO2 to lower their pH, not some other acidic "buffer". CO2 is what the plants want, not some pH, so folks should add only that if they want more CO2. Otherwise approach the tank from a non CO2 prespective, don't worry about it. I just say don't bother, rather than saying there is something inaccurate about the chart, that confuses an already confusing issue for new folks and folks curious about using CO2. One of the main purposes of a non CO2 tank is less mainteance. I do so little to mine it really is pathetic that they look so good. Your CO2 levels can be measured with the buffers present in a rough manner also BTW sing the chart(eg PO4 "buffers", peat etc). Take a glass of treated water and a glass of tap or Spring water etc, add enough baking soda to get a KH of 2 or whatever you chose. Measure both glasses pH/KH after 24 hours sitting out. Say glass treated with acid has a pH of 6.4 and the spring water has a pH of 6.8, both have the exact same CO2 content since they are both in equilibrium with the air. So subtract 0.4 pH units for your final pH/KH combo to find CO2. The scale is not linear etc, but it's close enough and if you wanted to play with math more, you could get very accurate. Close is good enough for me, folks are too sloppy to have to nail a precise method that has little wavering on either sideSo this is a semi practical method that's easy. Regards. Tom Barr |
#12
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"Michi Henning" wrote in message
... Ah, OK, I'm with you now -- I agree. The KH is a constant for the purpose of this discussion, and the pH is the result of the amount of CO2 in the water, that is, the CO2 is the *cause*, and the pH is the *effect*. I agree that, if people think they can lower the pH to get more CO2, they are misguided. The *only* way to get more CO2 is to put CO2 into the tank. Products that otherwise tinker with the pH to artificially lower it (such as "pH Down" and similar) don't do a thing to the CO2 level. And, if such products are used, the chart will indeed be way off. yes, that is the point I was trying to make ;o) Ah, yes :-) Actually, according to Krause, the equilibrium level is closer to 0.5ppm. But the precise figure is academic, I suspect, because 0.5ppm and 2-3ppm are very nearly the same when it comes to growing plants: too little. I have heard anywhere for .5ppm to 5ppm. The last one I read said they were measuring 2-3ppm at equilibrium, so that is what I said. But like you said, it's all acedemic, since it is too little for massive growth. btw, I don't even have plants yet ;o) I've been keeping fish for ~20 years, but never plants. But I have been lurking here and other plant forums for the last few months trying to absorb knowledge. And this co2 chart bugged me at first until I finally realized that it only applied to systems using only co2 to change the ph, and not to water using other buffers to lower the ph. I am going to be planting my 75gallon tank today. No co2 as of yet though, just a bunch of plants that supposedly don't require much co2 to live well. We shall see. I have finally found a co2 distributor here that sells to individuals, so I will be adding co2 in the next few weeks and go from there. -- Margolis http://web.archive.org/web/200302152...qs/AGQ2FAQ.htm http://www.unrealtower.org/faq |
#13
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" wrote in message
om... about it. I just say don't bother, rather than saying there is something inaccurate about the chart, that confuses an already confusing issue for new folks and folks curious about using CO2. read my post to Michi that I made this morning, I think I explain things a little better about what I meant. To the novice it is too easy to see a co2 chart and say, "oh, all I have to do is put some discus buffer in the water and I will have more co2!" That is why I said it is innaccurate unless you are adding co2 to the water to alter the ph -- Margolis http://web.archive.org/web/200302152...qs/AGQ2FAQ.htm http://www.unrealtower.org/faq |
#14
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read my post to Michi that I made this morning, I think I explain things a
little better about what I meant. To the novice it is too easy to see a co2 chart and say, "oh, all I have to do is put some discus buffer in the water and I will have more co2!" That is why I said it is innaccurate unless you are adding co2 to the water to alter the ph Yep, you are 100% correct about that, we try and stop that kind of thing before they do that:-) I do not know how many tried that at some point when they started this hobby. Another issue is that folks suggest that aquatic plants prefer acidic waters as well. Not true, they like CO2. So that causes them also to try and lower pH. I'm cranky about that when folks say or do that myself Regards, Tom Barr |
#15
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" wrote in message
om... read my post to Michi that I made this morning, I think I explain things a little better about what I meant. To the novice it is too easy to see a co2 chart and say, "oh, all I have to do is put some discus buffer in the water and I will have more co2!" That is why I said it is innaccurate unless you are adding co2 to the water to alter the ph Yep, you are 100% correct about that, we try and stop that kind of thing before they do that:-) Partly, we have to blame the CO2 charts. They show KH and pH as the row and column units, and the CO2 value as the lookup value in each cell. In other words, the table suggests that KH and pH are inputs, and the CO2 level is the result, but that's wrong, of course. It would be better to change the charts to label the rows and colums with KH and CO2 values, and make the pH the lookup value. People would be less likely to fall into the trap of assuming that lowering their pH will raise the CO2 level. (And the charts would be just as usable.) Cheers, Michi. -- Michi Henning Ph: +61 4 1118-2700 ZeroC, Inc. http://www.zeroc.com |
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