Well, I entered the world of CO2 injection this week and thus far, it
has been a disaster.

I have a 6'x2'x2' tank and sump that holds probably around 180 total
gallons of water. My tapwater is initially around 3 dKH and about 7.6 pH
(tested using Aquarium Pharmaceuticals tests). I added a couple
tablespoons of baking soda to raise the carbonate hardness to 6 dKH.

After doing some research, I read an earlier post by Tom Barr that
suggested introducing CO2 before worrying about lighting or trace
fertilizers. I currently only have two old 2' T12 flourescent bulbs that
came with the aquarium when I bought it (no telling how old the bulbs
are).

I got a JBJ combo regulator, solenoid, needle valve, check valve, &
bubble counter in the mail on Monday and attached it to my 10 lb CO2
tank. The high pressure gage read 800 psi (is this the normal reading
for a full tank?).

I ran about 12 inches of vinyl tubing (I know this is not ideal, but it
is a temporary solution until I can get some CO2 tubing or some Tygon R-
3603 tubing) to my CO2 reactor (CO2 & water entering the top, cascading
over bio-balls, and out the bottom back into the sump). There were no
bubbles coming out of my reactor, so I'm assuming 100% of the CO2 that
made it to the reactor was diffused.

I got some Ludwigia, Vals, Telanthera, and Swords to add. I dipped all
but the Vals in a Potassium Permanganete solution for a few minutes and
added all of them into a corner of the tank that had the two bulbs over
it.

I started bubbling at one bubble per second. and let it run through the
night. The next morning, my pH had not moved. I kept increasing the
bubble rate until it was going too fast for me to count (5 to 10 bubbles
per second!). After doing this a couple of days, my pH had only lowered
by 0.2 or 0.4 to around 7.2. The pressure on my tank had dropped by 300
psi so I scaled the bubble rate back to one per second. This morning, my
CO2 tank was flat empty.

Now, I'm assuming that I have a leak somewhere so I am switching to
silicone tubing over vinyl for now and I'm replacing the teflon tape on
the tank threads to the yellow stuff that's supposed to be for gas
connections and test for leaks with a soap solution, but I'm still
baffeled as to why I had to inject so much CO2 to barely budge my pH
levels. I confirmed the CO2 was making it into the reactor and I tested
the pH with water from the tank as well as water from the sump with no
difference. Is my pH test bad? My plants are turning brown and dying, so
I'm assuming the CO2 is not helping much (if any).

Any insights would be much appreciated.

Thanks.
-- Allan

"Allan" wrote in message
news:MPG.1bf8a99e24d8b458989682@news-server...
Well, I entered the world of CO2 injection this week and thus far, it
has been a disaster.

I have a 6'x2'x2' tank and sump that holds probably around 180 total
gallons of water. My tapwater is initially around 3 dKH and about 7.6 pH
(tested using Aquarium Pharmaceuticals tests). I added a couple
tablespoons of baking soda to raise the carbonate hardness to 6 dKH.

After doing some research, I read an earlier post by Tom Barr that
suggested introducing CO2 before worrying about lighting or trace
fertilizers. I currently only have two old 2' T12 flourescent bulbs that
came with the aquarium when I bought it (no telling how old the bulbs
are).

I got a JBJ combo regulator, solenoid, needle valve, check valve, &
bubble counter in the mail on Monday and attached it to my 10 lb CO2
tank. The high pressure gage read 800 psi (is this the normal reading
for a full tank?).

I ran about 12 inches of vinyl tubing (I know this is not ideal, but it
is a temporary solution until I can get some CO2 tubing or some Tygon R-
3603 tubing) to my CO2 reactor (CO2 & water entering the top, cascading
over bio-balls, and out the bottom back into the sump). There were no
bubbles coming out of my reactor, so I'm assuming 100% of the CO2 that
made it to the reactor was diffused.

I got some Ludwigia, Vals, Telanthera, and Swords to add. I dipped all
but the Vals in a Potassium Permanganete solution for a few minutes and
added all of them into a corner of the tank that had the two bulbs over
it.

I started bubbling at one bubble per second. and let it run through the
night. The next morning, my pH had not moved. I kept increasing the
bubble rate until it was going too fast for me to count (5 to 10 bubbles
per second!). After doing this a couple of days, my pH had only lowered
by 0.2 or 0.4 to around 7.2. The pressure on my tank had dropped by 300
psi so I scaled the bubble rate back to one per second. This morning, my
CO2 tank was flat empty.

Now, I'm assuming that I have a leak somewhere so I am switching to
silicone tubing over vinyl for now and I'm replacing the teflon tape on
the tank threads to the yellow stuff that's supposed to be for gas
connections and test for leaks with a soap solution, but I'm still
baffeled as to why I had to inject so much CO2 to barely budge my pH
levels. I confirmed the CO2 was making it into the reactor and I tested
the pH with water from the tank as well as water from the sump with no
difference. Is my pH test bad? My plants are turning brown and dying, so
I'm assuming the CO2 is not helping much (if any).

Any insights would be much appreciated.

Thanks.
-- Allan


your ph has dropped quite a bit actually. It was 7.6 with the kh @ 3°.
When you added the baking soda and raised the kh up to 6° you raised your ph
up to the low to middle 8's probably. You have a very large tank, so it is
probably going to take quite a bit of co2 to really affect it. I don't
really know how much is being lost with the wrong airtube, I wouldn't think
that much. But I can't imagine that it would use as much as you used to
achieve this minor drop. Definately check for leaks in the co2 system.

Another thing, are using standard returns for your pumps and filters? Or
have you made underwater spray bars for the returns like you need to use
with co2? You have a large surface area on that tank to dissapate the co2
into the atmosphere. If the pump returns are at the top it could be causing
a lot of the co2 to dissapate. Is the surface being agitated any all? Any
ripples? It should look smooth like glass to keep the co2 in best.

take all of this with a grain of salt of course, since I am still learning
myself. I haven't even gotten my co2 system yet, but these are all things I
have learned while researching this.

Oh, and regarding the light, it seems to me that it is a fine line to cross
as to whether co2 or light first. Your plants can't use the co2 if there
isn't enough light. And it seems to me that 40W on a 180 gallon tank isn't
enough to grow even the easiest plants. Personally I think you should have
gotten the lights first considering the paltry lights you currently have.
Something like the 72" strip on this page with 6-96W bulbs ;o)



--

Margolis
http://web.archive.org/web/200302152...qs/AGQ2FAQ.htm
http://www.unrealtower.org/faq

"Margolis" wrote in message
...
gotten the lights first considering the paltry lights you currently have.
Something like the 72" strip on this page with 6-96W bulbs ;o)




btw, here is the link to the expensive lights that I left out ;op
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/produc...&N=2004+113176


--

Margolis
http://web.archive.org/web/200302152...qs/AGQ2FAQ.htm
http://www.unrealtower.org/faq

"Allan" wrote in message
news:MPG.1bf8a99e24d8b458989682@news-server...

I have a 6'x2'x2' tank and sump that holds probably around 180 total
gallons of water. My tapwater is initially around 3 dKH and about 7.6 pH
(tested using Aquarium Pharmaceuticals tests). I added a couple
tablespoons of baking soda to raise the carbonate hardness to 6 dKH.

I have a very similar setup -- 6'x2'x2' open top tank, with little surface
movement. My KH is at 4.5 dKH.

I got a JBJ combo regulator, solenoid, needle valve, check valve, &
bubble counter in the mail on Monday and attached it to my 10 lb CO2
tank. The high pressure gage read 800 psi (is this the normal reading
for a full tank?).

Seems low. The pressure of liquid CO2 at room temperature (below 30C)
is 60bar, which is 870psi. Possibly, your tank wasn't fillled? Note that you
cannot use pressure to tell how full a CO2 tank is because the pressure stays
exactly at 60bar until the tank is almost empty and there is no more liquid
CO2 left. If you want to know whether you have a full tank, weigh it empty
and again after a refill.

I ran about 12 inches of vinyl tubing (I know this is not ideal, but it
is a temporary solution until I can get some CO2 tubing or some Tygon R-
3603 tubing) to my CO2 reactor (CO2 & water entering the top, cascading
over bio-balls, and out the bottom back into the sump).

The losses through vinyl tubing are grossly exaggerated, IMO. The only place
where CO2-proof tubing is useful is between the bottle and the solenoid
(assuming that your solenoid isn't attached directly to the regulator). That's
the high-pressure part of the system, and you might notice a bit of loss there.
For the low-pressure part (following the needle valve), any odd tubing will do.

There were no
bubbles coming out of my reactor, so I'm assuming 100% of the CO2 that
made it to the reactor was diffused.

This sounds like you have an Aqua-Medic Reactor 1000 (or similar):
http://www.marinedepot.com/md_viewIt...7531&ast=&key=

If so, you can be sure that you have 100% diffusion -- those reactors work
extremely well.

I started bubbling at one bubble per second. and let it run through the
night. The next morning, my pH had not moved. I kept increasing the
bubble rate until it was going too fast for me to count (5 to 10 bubbles
per second!). After doing this a couple of days, my pH had only lowered
by 0.2 or 0.4 to around 7.2. The pressure on my tank had dropped by 300
psi so I scaled the bubble rate back to one per second. This morning, my
CO2 tank was flat empty.

I'm finding it impossible to believe that could have emptied out 10 pound tank
this quickly, unless you have a leak. So, first, check whether your tank was
actually full. (Given that you read 800psi instead of 870psi, I suspect you
may have started with a nearly empty tank.) Next, take a spray bottle, put
in a little bit of water and a few drops of detergent, and spray the the
various
parts of your system. You will see bubbles if you have a leak.

Now, I'm assuming that I have a leak somewhere so I am switching to
silicone tubing over vinyl for now and I'm replacing the teflon tape on
the tank threads to the yellow stuff that's supposed to be for gas
connections and test for leaks with a soap solution, but I'm still
baffeled as to why I had to inject so much CO2 to barely budge my pH
levels. I confirmed the CO2 was making it into the reactor and I tested
the pH with water from the tank as well as water from the sump with no
difference. Is my pH test bad? My plants are turning brown and dying, so
I'm assuming the CO2 is not helping much (if any).

If you want to control the CO2 content to any degree of precision, an
ordinary indicator pH test is too coarse, IMO. At least, I can't tell the
difference between 6.6 and 6.9 with any real reliability, but that's a
big difference in terms of CO2 content (too much vs too little). A better
option is to get a electronic meter. These are precise to withing +- 0.01
degrees after calibration.

BTW, I keep my tank at 20-30ppm CO2 permanently (using
a pH controller). A 1.5 kg tank of CO2 lasts me about 3.5 months,
so your 10 lb tank should last you about a year.

Cheers,

Michi.

--
Michi Henning Ph: +61 4 1118-2700
ZeroC, Inc. http://www.zeroc.com

In article ,
says...
Another thing, are using standard returns for your pumps and filters? Or
have you made underwater spray bars for the returns like you need to use
with co2? You have a large surface area on that tank to dissapate the co2
into the atmosphere. If the pump returns are at the top it could be causing
a lot of the co2 to dissapate. Is the surface being agitated any all? Any
ripples? It should look smooth like glass to keep the co2 in best.

The returns are under water and the surface is not agitated at all. In
addition, the top is covered with glass panels (though I doubt this has
much effect on retaining any CO2 lost at the surface).

Oh, and regarding the light, it seems to me that it is a fine line to cross
as to whether co2 or light first. Your plants can't use the co2 if there
isn't enough light. And it seems to me that 40W on a 180 gallon tank isn't
enough to grow even the easiest plants. Personally I think you should have
gotten the lights first considering the paltry lights you currently have.
Something like the 72" strip on this page with 6-96W bulbs ;o)

I hope to have the lighting system in place by this weekend - I'm going
to try overdriving some NO lighting.

Thanks for the comments.

In article ,
says...
"Allan" wrote in message
news:MPG.1bf8a99e24d8b458989682@news-server...

I got a JBJ combo regulator, solenoid, needle valve, check valve, &
bubble counter in the mail on Monday and attached it to my 10 lb CO2
tank. The high pressure gage read 800 psi (is this the normal reading
for a full tank?).

Seems low. The pressure of liquid CO2 at room temperature (below 30C)
is 60bar, which is 870psi. Possibly, your tank wasn't fillled? Note that you
cannot use pressure to tell how full a CO2 tank is because the pressure stays
exactly at 60bar until the tank is almost empty and there is no more liquid
CO2 left. If you want to know whether you have a full tank, weigh it empty
and again after a refill.

I went and got a refill today. Pressure is similar (~830 or ~840 psi),
so I assume that is just an inaccuracy of my regulator.

I started bubbling at one bubble per second. and let it run through the
night. The next morning, my pH had not moved. I kept increasing the
bubble rate until it was going too fast for me to count (5 to 10 bubbles
per second!). After doing this a couple of days, my pH had only lowered
by 0.2 or 0.4 to around 7.2. The pressure on my tank had dropped by 300
psi so I scaled the bubble rate back to one per second. This morning, my
CO2 tank was flat empty.

I'm finding it impossible to believe that could have emptied out 10 pound tank
this quickly, unless you have a leak. So, first, check whether your tank was
actually full. (Given that you read 800psi instead of 870psi, I suspect you
may have started with a nearly empty tank.) Next, take a spray bottle, put
in a little bit of water and a few drops of detergent, and spray the the
various
parts of your system. You will see bubbles if you have a leak.

From a rough estimate, the previous tank felt a similar weight to this
one, so I'm pretty confident it was full. Anyway, I found the leak
tonight. The threaded portion of the needle valve that the bubble
counter attached to was the culprit. I wrapped some teflon tape around
it and it seems to have stopped the leak for now.

If you want to control the CO2 content to any degree of precision, an
ordinary indicator pH test is too coarse, IMO. At least, I can't tell the
difference between 6.6 and 6.9 with any real reliability, but that's a
big difference in terms of CO2 content (too much vs too little). A better
option is to get a electronic meter. These are precise to withing +- 0.01
degrees after calibration.

An AquaController II should be arriving tomorrow. I'll hopefully have
more concrete data then.

Thanks for the input.

-- Allan

"Allan" wrote in message
news:MPG.1bf9f64f96933a03989684@news-server...
..

An AquaController II should be arriving tomorrow. I'll hopefully have
more concrete data then.

Thanks for the input.

-- Allan


please keep us updated on how things go

--

Margolis
http://web.archive.org/web/200302152...qs/AGQ2FAQ.htm
http://www.unrealtower.org/faq

Go to eBay and type "The Ultimate Co2 System w/o Cylinder" in the
search box.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...sPageName=WDVW

"Kozmo" wrote in message
om...
Go to eBay and type "The Ultimate Co2 System w/o Cylinder" in the
search box.


http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...sPageName=WDVW



thanks, that link worked. It definately isn't the "ultimate co2 system"
though ;o)

--

Margolis
http://web.archive.org/web/200302152...qs/AGQ2FAQ.htm
http://www.unrealtower.org/faq

I have a 6'x2'x2' tank and sump that holds probably around 180 total
gallons of water. My tapwater is initially around 3 dKH and about 7.6 pH
(tested using Aquarium Pharmaceuticals tests). I added a couple
tablespoons of baking soda to raise the carbonate hardness to 6 dKH.

You did not need to change the KH.
Add only enough CO2 to drop the p/H to 6.5. Keep it there all day.
Use tap and do not add baking soda at all.
That's all you have to do.

I got a JBJ combo regulator, solenoid, needle valve, check valve, &
bubble counter in the mail on Monday and attached it to my 10 lb CO2
tank. The high pressure gage read 800 psi (is this the normal reading
for a full tank?).

Yep

I ran about 12 inches of vinyl tubing (I know this is not ideal, but it
is a temporary solution until I can get some CO2 tubing or some Tygon R-
3603 tubing) to my CO2 reactor

I use silicone, works fine. It's not expensive eitherway so if you
feel better using it, go for it but it's not needed, 100% silicone
works very well.

I started bubbling at one bubble per second. and let it run through the
night. The next morning, my pH had not moved. I kept increasing the
bubble rate until it was going too fast for me to count (5 to 10 bubbles
per second!). After doing this a couple of days, my pH had only lowered
by 0.2 or 0.4 to around 7.2. The pressure on my tank had dropped by 300
psi so I scaled the bubble rate back to one per second. This morning, my
CO2 tank was flat empty.

Make sure you have a seal washer for the reg-tank and also use some
pipe compound or teflon tape on the threads.
Check everything well.

3 bubbles a second should come close to the needed CO2 amount, maybe 4
a second.
Keep the KH at 3.

Set output pressure at 15psi or so.
Make sure the outflow from the reactor leaves the bottom and goes
right into the return from the sump.
Reduce the splash on the over flow box also(raise the water level in
there).
Use spray bars that point downward or are already down along the back
wall of the tank running along the bottom.

Wash plants good, but do not dip for more than a minute at most in a
solution of bleach, some like moss will not survive.

Regards,
Tom Barr

Ahh...

So Kozmo must be selling the kit then... doing some pushing on the item...

Brian S.

"Kozmo" wrote in message
om...
Go to eBay and type "The Ultimate Co2 System w/o Cylinder" in the
search box.


http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...sPageName=WDVW

I think your sump may be the problem.
See you are loosing a ton of co2 with the water Cascading over the
bioballs. I would suggest trying it wiht no sump and a different
filter or rigging your filter so it does not cascade and release the
co2 you are adding

Marc
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _______
Want to win a FREE new co2 system or a lighting system check out our
forum for our newest contest coming up

http://www.fish-forums.com

Http://www.aquatic-store.com


On Mon, 08 Nov 2004 03:47:11 GMT, Allan
wrote:

Well, I entered the world of CO2 injection this week and thus far, it
has been a disaster.

I have a 6'x2'x2' tank and sump that holds probably around 180 total
gallons of water. My tapwater is initially around 3 dKH and about 7.6
(tested using Aquarium Pharmaceuticals tests). I added a couple
tablespoons of baking soda to raise the carbonate hardness to 6 dKH.

After doing some research, I read an earlier post by Tom Barr that
suggested introducing CO2 before worrying about lighting or trace
fertilizers. I currently only have two old 2' T12 flourescent bulbs that
came with the aquarium when I bought it (no telling how old the bulbs
are).

I got a JBJ combo regulator, solenoid, needle valve, check valve, &
bubble counter in the mail on Monday and attached it to my 10 lb CO2
tank. The high pressure gage read 800 psi (is this the normal reading
for a full tank?).

I ran about 12 inches of vinyl tubing (I know this is not ideal, but it
is a temporary solution until I can get some CO2 tubing or some Tygon R-
3603 tubing) to my CO2 reactor (CO2 & water entering the top, cascading
over bio-balls, and out the bottom back into the sump). There were no
bubbles coming out of my reactor, so I'm assuming 100% of the CO2 that
made it to the reactor was diffused.

I got some Ludwigia, Vals, Telanthera, and Swords to add. I dipped all
but the Vals in a Potassium Permanganete solution for a few minutes and
added all of them into a corner of the tank that had the two bulbs over
it.

I started bubbling at one bubble per second. and let it run through the
night. The next morning, my pH had not moved. I kept increasing the
bubble rate until it was going too fast for me to count (5 to 10 bubbles
per second!). After doing this a couple of days, my pH had only lowered
by 0.2 or 0.4 to around 7.2. The pressure on my tank had dropped by 300
psi so I scaled the bubble rate back to one per second. This morning, my
CO2 tank was flat empty.

Now, I'm assuming that I have a leak somewhere so I am switching to
silicone tubing over vinyl for now and I'm replacing the teflon tape on
the tank threads to the yellow stuff that's supposed to be for gas
connections and test for leaks with a soap solution, but I'm still
baffeled as to why I had to inject so much CO2 to barely budge my pH
levels. I confirmed the CO2 was making it into the reactor and I tested
the pH with water from the tank as well as water from the sump with no
difference. Is my pH test bad? My plants are turning brown and dying, so
I'm assuming the CO2 is not helping much (if any).

Any insights would be much appreciated.

Thanks.
-- Allan

" wrote in message
om...
Reduce the splash on the over flow box also(raise the water level in
there).


How do you raise the water level in the overflow?

--

Margolis
http://web.archive.org/web/200302152...qs/AGQ2FAQ.htm
http://www.unrealtower.org/faq

"www.Fish-Forums.com" wrote in message
...
I think your sump may be the problem.
See you are loosing a ton of co2 with the water Cascading over the
bioballs. I would suggest trying it wiht no sump and a different
filter or rigging your filter so it does not cascade and release the
co2 you are adding

Marc



that's what I thought at first too. But it turns out that it's not nearly
as bad as you would think with a trickle filter. here is an article on the
subject http://users.frii.com/gbooth/Aquatic...index.htm#loss

--

Margolis
http://web.archive.org/web/200302152...qs/AGQ2FAQ.htm
http://www.unrealtower.org/faq

In article ,
says...
"www.Fish-Forums.com" wrote in message
...
I think your sump may be the problem.
See you are loosing a ton of co2 with the water Cascading over the
bioballs. I would suggest trying it wiht no sump and a different
filter or rigging your filter so it does not cascade and release the
co2 you are adding

Marc



that's what I thought at first too. But it turns out that it's not nearly
as bad as you would think with a trickle filter. here is an article on the
subject http://users.frii.com/gbooth/Aquatic...index.htm#loss



In addition, it is a closed reactor, so if the CO2 is not escaping out
the bottom of the reactor (which it is not) there should 100% diffusion.

My reactor is similar to this one (though not quite as elaborate):
http://www.eaquanature.com/store/pro...acturers_id=53
&products_id=626