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#3
20-11-2004, 09:57 PM
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(Nick Wise) wrote in message om...
(Trapper) wrote in message . com... Hi folks, In the last 24 hrs, I have seen what appears to be green water in my 75 gal planted tank. The setup is 2 weeks old, and pretty heavily planted as per conventional wisdom. All plants are thriving, spraying out new leaves, roots, etc. Amazon swords are producing daughter plants, yadda yadda. It's mesmerizing to watch, actually. Fish load is 9 tetras, otos, sae, fed lightly 2x/day on BBS. Substrate is 100% flourite. Otos are pooping and presumably not starving. Problem #1: The setup is less than 2 weeks old? The tank has not cycled yet. There is not a sufficient bacterial colony to remove waste. The plants will remove a great deal of the excess nitrates and ammonia, however, it does depend upon the plants. One thing I omitted in my description is that the canister filter running on the tank is large and was purchased wet and mature second hand. Since I posted this message, I tested my nitrogens: ammonia and nitrate were both nil. Stem plants are best for this because they get nutrients from the water column. The only plants you mentioned are, amazon swords, eleocharis, and chain swords, all of which are heavy root feeders and do not remove a great deal from the water itself. So without an established biofilter, there will be a build up of excess nitrates, which will always result in green water. I've also got Ludwigia, Elodea, Bacopa, and Baby's tears. OOps, forgot to mention these, too. At any rate, all plants in the tank, without exception, have really done remarkably well. This is consistent with the very low nitrogens I saw by testing (assuming that my fish and BBS have been supplying nitrogen to the tank). How can this be dealt with? The best way to deal with this is somewhat counter-intuitive. It's not that you need to remove the nitrates, you want the plants to do this for you. I think the plants already have! :-) So, you must figure out why the plants are not absorbing the nitrates. None present. I actually ended up *dosing* nitrates, as well as K. There must be some limiting factor holding the plants back. Turns out there's a big P spike in the water, and (initially) low N. Basically the classic greenwater scenario, from what I can tell. Algae: green spot on glass, no biggee; some sparse spots of brown on Eleocharis, and one chain sword. Rubs off easily. Water: KH 2 GH 2-3 pH 6.50-6.60, CO2-injected Temp: 77-80 Ammonia: nonreactive Nitrate, Nitrite: not tested Phosphate, Fe: not tested Seachem "flourish" added on day 1 of tank's planted life, and again 2 days ago. 5-10 gal water change every couple days. Problem #2: Or really just #1 part 2: You can worry about testing all that stuff if you want, but the best way to tell is to watch your plants. I see you have a lot of light over your tank. This will really drive your plants to grow at high rates. Therefor, absorb nutrients at high rates. The minute they run out of one, they will stop, and then algae has a toe-hold. The plants have all been kicking butt. I did, however, purchase a phosphate test kit. Result? Phosphate almost off the chart! As a result I've made a biggish change using reconstituted RO water, and have dosed N and K. The most obvious limitation on your system is CO2. Hrm, I would have said it was the near total absence of NO3/NH3. With a PH of 6.5 and a KH of 2, you have around 18 ppm of CO2. I suggest adding more baking soda to obtain a KH of around 3, then upping CO2 injection to maintain the 6.5ph. This will give you around 25 ppm. You need the higher rate to keep up with your lighting. After this, you will most likely need to supplement N and K, the best way of doing this is with Potassium Nitrate. Try this link for help in calculating how much to dose. [co2] = 3 * (KH) * 10 ^ (7-pH), right?  I've already dosed N and K. The plants are pearling noticeably more than just before I dosed. Of course, the green water gets greener (even now, with phosphate much reduced by waterchanges) but I'm patient enough to let the plants just win out in the end. I tried to dial in KH and pH for 20ppm CO2 initially by design. May up KH to target 25ppm, though it's close to a purported danger zone (for fish) at 30ppm. [snip] One of the best ways to get rid of green water is with a blackout. Turn off all lights and cover your tank for 3-4 days. Do 50% water changes every day to get rid of the excess nutrients. After this, the green water will be put in check, then you must do what I said earlier. You must get your nutrients balanced. Remember: HEALTHY PLANTS WILL OUTCOMPETE ALGAE EVERY TIME!! QUESTIONS PRESENTED: (0) Should I be interested in phosphate, to the point of getting a test kit? No. Just make sure you don't run out. I typically dose enough for 5ppm every week with my water changes. Wow, 5ppm? Maybe you mean 0.5 ppm? Sundry sources (easily findable within The Krib or plantedtank.net) speak of maintaining phosphate 1ppm. The tapwater here comes out of the pipes at 3+ ppm of phosphate, commonly cited as a problem by local aquarists. Not to say one cannot make it work on 5ppm. I'd imagine it's possible so long as you keep something else, needed by greenwater and easily competed-for by plants, at limiting concentration. Or you could UV sterilize. (1) Are there known problems with phosphate contamination of Arm&Hammer baking soda? Not in my experience. I've since called the mfr, and have done my own phosphate testing. Result of both is consistent with posters' experience of A&H bicarb being okay. (2) What is the lag time between establishment of green-water-friendly water conditions and the appearance of green water? Can be very quick. Like less than a day. The corollary of this is that where there's some potentially excessive amount of phosphate lurking, and where you have lots of higher plants, you can run into green water in a hurry. Hm. Interesting, never thought of it that way. PRELIMINARY ACTION: (1) Suspension of fert addition until the green water goes away. It's not the addition that's the prob, its the lack of optimum conditions for your plants. Seems to be the conventional wisdom, yeah. If you optimize for plants, they just beat the greenwater at its own game. (2) Continuing 5-10 gal daily water changes until green water goes away (where changewater is RO adjusted for GH and KH, maybe with some small amt of tap added for traces). Up this to at least 25%-50% A good idea. Unfortunately, I have only 1 5-gal bucket in which to make my change water, and the RO unit takes a coupla hrs to fill it. 10gal daily is about all I have time for, though yesterday I did more. (3) Reduction of photoperiod to 10 hrs from 12. Shut them completely off and cover with a blanket for 3-4 days. Your fish will be fine, just feed them like normal. Your plants will be fine also. I think I'll stay the course for now, and just let the plants and my smaller waterchanges converge to phosphate limitation. However, if this fails then the blanket treatment isn't out of the question. Nick Wise --Trapper, in NYC where it's dark and rainy. |
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#4
21-11-2004, 02:42 AM
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"Trapper" wrote in message om... (Nick Wise) wrote in message om... (Trapper) wrote in message . com... Hi folks, In the last 24 hrs, I have seen what appears to be green water in my 75 gal planted tank. The setup is 2 weeks old, and pretty heavily planted as per conventional wisdom. All plants are thriving, spraying out new leaves, roots, etc. Amazon swords are producing daughter plants, yadda yadda. It's mesmerizing to watch, actually. Fish load is 9 tetras, otos, sae, fed lightly 2x/day on BBS. Substrate is 100% flourite. Otos are pooping and presumably not starving. Problem #1: The setup is less than 2 weeks old? The tank has not cycled yet. There is not a sufficient bacterial colony to remove waste. The plants will remove a great deal of the excess nitrates and ammonia, however, it does depend upon the plants. One thing I omitted in my description is that the canister filter running on the tank is large and was purchased wet and mature second hand. Since I posted this message, I tested my nitrogens: ammonia and nitrate were both nil. Stem plants are best for this because they get nutrients from the water column. The only plants you mentioned are, amazon swords, eleocharis, and chain swords, all of which are heavy root feeders and do not remove a great deal from the water itself. So without an established biofilter, there will be a build up of excess nitrates, which will always result in green water. I've also got Ludwigia, Elodea, Bacopa, and Baby's tears. OOps, forgot to mention these, too. At any rate, all plants in the tank, without exception, have really done remarkably well. This is consistent with the very low nitrogens I saw by testing (assuming that my fish and BBS have been supplying nitrogen to the tank). How can this be dealt with? The best way to deal with this is somewhat counter-intuitive. It's not that you need to remove the nitrates, you want the plants to do this for you. I think the plants already have! :-) I may be wrong on this, and I'm sure someone like Tom could correct me, but I am guessing that the green water is what removed the nitrates. In my experience, green water is always caused by a sudden spike in ammonia. You can take a completely clear tank and toss in a Jobes spike or uncover some substrate fert and, presto, green water. So, you must figure out why the plants are not absorbing the nitrates. None present. I actually ended up *dosing* nitrates, as well as K. There must be some limiting factor holding the plants back. Turns out there's a big P spike in the water, and (initially) low N. Basically the classic greenwater scenario, from what I can tell. I have never found P to be a cause of green water. IME it is more likely to cause black brush algae. Here's my experience, a sudden spike in ammonia caused by a break in the bio-filter, an undiscovered dead fish, uncovering a fert spike in the substrate, etc., gives the GW what it needs. It takes over and quickly fills the tank. Nitrates get sucked down to zero by the algae and now your plants are at a disadvantage. Once established, algae is very efficient at using available nitrates. It therefor takes less to maintain it. It quickly gets to the small available nitrogen and your plants don't get any. Get your N and K up to good levels. Keep the N above 5ppm at all time (I typically have levels in the 10-15ppm range). If you are using potassium nitrate for this, you will not need worry about K. This will help the plants get back in shape. Algae: green spot on glass, no biggee; some sparse spots of brown on Eleocharis, and one chain sword. Rubs off easily. Water: KH 2 GH 2-3 pH 6.50-6.60, CO2-injected Temp: 77-80 Ammonia: nonreactive Nitrate, Nitrite: not tested Phosphate, Fe: not tested Seachem "flourish" added on day 1 of tank's planted life, and again 2 days ago. 5-10 gal water change every couple days. Problem #2: Or really just #1 part 2: You can worry about testing all that stuff if you want, but the best way to tell is to watch your plants. I see you have a lot of light over your tank. This will really drive your plants to grow at high rates. Therefor, absorb nutrients at high rates. The minute they run out of one, they will stop, and then algae has a toe-hold. The plants have all been kicking butt. I did, however, purchase a phosphate test kit. Result? Phosphate almost off the chart! As a result I've made a biggish change using reconstituted RO water, and have dosed N and K. Good, make sure to keep the N and K up, but keep an eye on the P. You can't let it drop to zero. This is something a lot of people mess up on, they try so hard to limit P that they end up getting a N spike. The most obvious limitation on your system is CO2. Hrm, I would have said it was the near total absence of NO3/NH3. This is a result of the GW. With a PH of 6.5 and a KH of 2, you have around 18 ppm of CO2. I suggest adding more baking soda to obtain a KH of around 3, then upping CO2 injection to maintain the 6.5ph. This will give you around 25 ppm. You need the higher rate to keep up with your lighting. After this, you will most likely need to supplement N and K, the best way of doing this is with Potassium Nitrate. Try this link for help in calculating how much to dose. [co2] = 3 * (KH) * 10 ^ (7-pH), right? I've already dosed N and K. The plants are pearling noticeably more than just before I dosed. Of course, the green water gets greener (even now, with phosphate much reduced by waterchanges) but I'm patient enough to let the plants just win out in the end. Great!! Many people just get impatient and start dumping crap from the LFS in their tanks. I tried to dial in KH and pH for 20ppm CO2 initially by design. May up KH to target 25ppm, though it's close to a purported danger zone (for fish) at 30ppm. See Chuck's Site for a CO@ cahrt to show the relationship between KH and CO2. And when you aim at 25, it will always be slightly less due to use and loass [snip] One of the best ways to get rid of green water is with a blackout. Turn off all lights and cover your tank for 3-4 days. Do 50% water changes every day to get rid of the excess nutrients. After this, the green water will be put in check, then you must do what I said earlier. You must get your nutrients balanced. Remember: HEALTHY PLANTS WILL OUTCOMPETE ALGAE EVERY TIME!! QUESTIONS PRESENTED: (0) Should I be interested in phosphate, to the point of getting a test kit? No. Just make sure you don't run out. I typically dose enough for 5ppm every week with my water changes. Wow, 5ppm? Maybe you mean 0.5 ppm? Sundry sources (easily findable within The Krib or plantedtank.net) speak of maintaining phosphate 1ppm. The tapwater here comes out of the pipes at 3+ ppm of phosphate, commonly cited as a problem by local aquarists. This amount is added once a week during my water change. A week later, it is barely detectable on a test kit. I could break it up over the week to keep the level at around 1ppm, but this works just as well. Not to say one cannot make it work on 5ppm. I'd imagine it's possible so long as you keep something else, needed by greenwater and easily competed-for by plants, at limiting concentration. Or you could UV sterilize. Those damn things are too expensive for me! I don't see why people buy them. I guess just too lazy to do it right in the first place. (1) Are there known problems with phosphate contamination of Arm&Hammer baking soda? Not in my experience. I've since called the mfr, and have done my own phosphate testing. Result of both is consistent with posters' experience of A&H bicarb being okay. (2) What is the lag time between establishment of green-water-friendly water conditions and the appearance of green water? Can be very quick. Like less than a day. The corollary of this is that where there's some potentially excessive amount of phosphate lurking, and where you have lots of higher plants, you can run into green water in a hurry. Hm. Interesting, never thought of it that way. PRELIMINARY ACTION: (1) Suspension of fert addition until the green water goes away. It's not the addition that's the prob, its the lack of optimum conditions for your plants. Seems to be the conventional wisdom, yeah. If you optimize for plants, they just beat the greenwater at its own game. (2) Continuing 5-10 gal daily water changes until green water goes away (where changewater is RO adjusted for GH and KH, maybe with some small amt of tap added for traces). Up this to at least 25%-50% A good idea. Unfortunately, I have only 1 5-gal bucket in which to make my change water, and the RO unit takes a coupla hrs to fill it. 10gal daily is about all I have time for, though yesterday I did more. (3) Reduction of photoperiod to 10 hrs from 12. Shut them completely off and cover with a blanket for 3-4 days. Your fish will be fine, just feed them like normal. Your plants will be fine also. I think I'll stay the course for now, and just let the plants and my smaller waterchanges converge to phosphate limitation. However, if this fails then the blanket treatment isn't out of the question. Well, whatever you try, good luck. It's the battles like these that really teach you something. Of course, you have to beat it yourself, instead of dumping "Algae Killer 2000" or some other crap in your tank like so many hobbyists, sigh............. Nick Wise --Trapper, in NYC where it's dark and rainy. |
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#5
21-11-2004, 09:06 PM
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Trapper,
Nick's advice is right in line with effective management of GW. You can correct the plant nutrient issues etc, but......... You still need to remove the GW adults that are growing. They are much tougher and able to withstand any abuses you throw at them. GW spores need the NH4 to get started. But if there's not enough ?NH4 tio be and, you'll never see GW, no matter what the NO3, PO4 level might in th eupper ranges(Eg 2ppm PO4/NO3 at 75ppm). So I gave several methods to kill and remove the GW. Pick one, try it, if it does not work, try another one. I like UV because I had one laying around from years ago and it's very easy to flip a switch and kill it in a few hours and never have it come back again. So I started dosing NH4 to see what caused GW. It was easy to do since the removal process was simple. I dosed plenty of NO3 and PO4(but no NH4), I could never produce the GW bloom. High traces, lots of light lots of CO2 etc. Only the NH4 and urea(which turns to NH4 very fast in water) caused the bloom. Once you get rid of it, take care of the plants and you'll likely never see it again. But you need to remove what's there.Water changes seldom do the trick except in mild cases/low light tanks. Regards, Tom Barr |
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#6
22-11-2004, 11:11 PM
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#7
23-11-2004, 08:51 AM
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(Trapper) wrote in message . com...
) wrote in message . com... Trapper, Nick's advice is right in line with effective management of GW. You can correct the plant nutrient issues etc, but......... You still need to remove the GW adults that are growing. They are much tougher and able to withstand any abuses you throw at them. I just picked up a D-1 diatom filter today. After two hours' operation, the bag is very green but the tank is not yet noticeably less so. Patience, patience... [lots of interesting stuff snipped] I'll probably end up diatomming overnight. Will follow up as to how things go after all the green buggers have been extracted. The D-1 is good for clean ups after you do large prunings and other mucky jobs. So you can get some more use out of it. A bit of a PITA to change/clean etc. I like UV's, they have become kind of pricy these days though. Hard to find something under 70$. You just need to run the unit longer is all. It'll take care of it.ake sure you run it for 36-48 hours after it's clear also. They should rent them and UV's at each local Aqaurium club to folks I think. Regards, Tom Barr --Trapper |
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#8
23-11-2004, 02:22 PM
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I just picked up a D-1 diatom filter today. After two hours'
operation, the bag is very green but the tank is not yet noticeably less so. Patience, patience... That's normal. Couple of things that help are to place the intake and exhaust as far apart as possible even if you have to add a hose to the output. Make sure you're accurate emasuring diatom powder. Eyeball it and be off by not that much and it'lll either not filter properly or have dramatically reduced water flow. Use the carbon. Makes the water even clearer than just the diatom powder. -- Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org http://www.mbz.org | Mercedes Mailing lists: http://lists.mbz.org 633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | Orkut:RS79 Classifieds: http://ads.mbz.org 1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Watches list: http://watches.list.mbz.org |
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#9
23-11-2004, 03:11 PM
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(Trapper) wrote in message . com...
) wrote in message . com... I'll probably end up diatomming overnight. Will follow up as to how things go after all the green buggers have been extracted. Now I'm worried my diatom filter isn't up to snuff. I ran it for about 14 hrs, with input and exhaust in my sump, and the water has gone from 6" visibility to about 18". I find this disappointing; I would have thought the diatom filter would be much more efficient than this. Flow rate is down to, oh, maybe 50-75 gph. Is this about what people have seen, performance-wise, from their diatom filters? Sorry to reply to my own post. There seemed little point in spawning a new thread. --Trapper |
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#10
23-11-2004, 03:59 PM
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"Trapper" wrote in message Now I'm worried my diatom filter isn't up to snuff. I ran it for about 14 hrs, with input and exhaust in my sump, and the water has gone from 6" visibility to about 18". I find this disappointing; I would have thought the diatom filter would be much more efficient than this. Flow rate is down to, oh, maybe 50-75 gph. Is this about what people have seen, performance-wise, from their diatom filters? Mine has had 90g of green water clear in 2 hours. If it gets clogged, you need to clean it and replace the diatom powder. I can determine the amount of clogging by sound and watching, but the first time use is different I'm sureg. If it starts spitting microbubbles it is clogging. If the diatom powder has a green tint to it, it is clogging. If the water is very green I'd imagine it would clog fairly quickly. In my experience. -- Toni http://www.cearbhaill.com/discus.htm |
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#11
23-11-2004, 09:51 PM
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"Toni" wrote in message ...
"Trapper" wrote in message Now I'm worried my diatom filter isn't up to snuff. I ran it for about 14 hrs, with input and exhaust in my sump, and the water has gone from 6" visibility to about 18". I find this disappointing; I would have thought the diatom filter would be much more efficient than this. Flow rate is down to, oh, maybe 50-75 gph. Is this about what people have seen, performance-wise, from their diatom filters? Mine has had 90g of green water clear in 2 hours. If it gets clogged, you need to clean it and replace the diatom powder. I can determine the amount of clogging by sound and watching, but the first time use is different I'm sureg. If it starts spitting microbubbles it is clogging. If the diatom powder has a green tint to it, it is clogging. If the water is very green I'd imagine it would clog fairly quickly. In my experience. Toni, I just ran to the LFS to get a 5-lb box of diatomaceous earth. Gave the filter a thorough rinse and a re-charge, and it's chugging away in my sump again. In just a matter of minutes the powder takes on a green tint. I figure as long as flow rate stays up I'll keep at it. It can clear the ~5 gals of water in the sump in a hurry, that's fun to watch. On a humorous note, consider this: we rate engines in horsepower, so I wonder if, analogously, we should rate diatom filters in daphniapower. --Trapper, in gloomy NYC |
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#12
24-11-2004, 08:07 PM
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Great conversation guys, thanks.
File steve "Nicholas Wise" wrote in message ... "Trapper" wrote in message snip most excellent trouble shooting and diagnsotic for green water algae problem ever. Well, whatever you try, good luck. It's the battles like these that really teach you something. Of course, you have to beat it yourself, instead of dumping "Algae Killer 2000" or some other crap in your tank like so many hobbyists, sigh............. Nick Wise --Trapper, in NYC where it's dark and rainy. |
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