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  #31   Report Post  
Old 17-01-2005, 06:15 PM
Margolis
 
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"js1" wrote in message
...

You're the only person who has claimed anything absolutely.

http://www.aquabotanic.com/carbon.html

Can algae feed on Excel?

No. I'm sure this may raise a few eyebrows ;-) since at face value
this would be a reasonable expectation. But, for reasons Uncle Sam
won't let us discuss, all I can say is that algae can't feed on Excel
and I will leave it as an exercise to the reader to deduce why this
is the case (big picture folks, no chemistry involved ;-).

Gregory Morin, Ph.D. ~~~~~~~Research Director~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Seachem Laboratories, Inc. www.seachem.com 888-SEACHEM

Notice no claims of algicide by Seachem. Though, from the above
comments, it's not unreasonable to infer that perhaps Excel is at
some level an algicide, but Seachem is not willing, or not allowed, to
make sucha a claim. You are the one who, on anectdotal evidence,
claims absolutely that Excel is not an algicide and is in fact good to
grow algae with.




all that says is that "algae can't feed on it". It is a far leap to say
that means that it kills algae or that it is an algicide.


and on top of that, it sounds like complete and utter marketing bs anyway.
Why would the government prevent them from even talking about why they
thought algae couldn't use this as food? If it is valid scientifically it
would be permissable.


--

Margolis
http://web.archive.org/web/200302152...qs/AGQ2FAQ.htm
http://www.unrealtower.org/faq







  #32   Report Post  
Old 17-01-2005, 06:29 PM
Richard
 
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In article ,
Margolis wrote:
Notice no claims of algicide by Seachem. Though, from the above
comments, it's not unreasonable to infer that perhaps Excel is at
some level an algicide, but Seachem is not willing, or not allowed, to
make sucha a claim. You are the one who, on anectdotal evidence,
claims absolutely that Excel is not an algicide and is in fact good to
grow algae with.


all that says is that "algae can't feed on it". It is a far leap to say
that means that it kills algae or that it is an algicide.


Snippets of email from Dr. Greg Morin, CEO of SeaChem:

There are products which claim to kill algae but I didn't know they
might have to meet any EPA qualifications.


Yes, they do. They _should_ have an EPA registration # on them. If not,
they are "illegal" products if they are also claiming to kill algae.
Remember, it is only the claim that counts as far as EPA is concerned.


I can't endorse or discuss your product in any event but it certainly
has me puzzled now. If there were a product that really was effective
for algae but didn't harm plants or invertebrates, I would certainly be
interested in it if there were a scientific study of some sort. AFAIK
SeaChem has a very high reputation.


We would need to do that for EPA registration to make that claim, but
the costs of doing that and the registration/application process far
outweigh whatever we would hope to make off such a product. The
government sets the financial burden so high it is just not worth it ...

I *think* a scientific study of a specific chemical compound could
investigate certain effects upon various organisms without contravening
any product marketing regulations, however I am not an expert on these
matters. Further, we could discuss those findings on public forums
couldn't we? A product containing that compound could then reference

the
study or people could endorse the product citing the study... I am very
puzzled!



A 3rd party would have to do such a study and even then we could not
disclose any findings showing algacidal activity... the 3rd party
could and others could discuss it... but we could not ... yes it is
crazy but that's how it is unfortunately. We could do it but since we
could not disclose anything it kind of defeats the purpose of doing
it.

-Greg
--

Gregory Morin, Ph.D. ~~~~~~~President/CEO~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Seachem Laboratories, Inc. www.seachem.com 888-SEACHEM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Later that same day:

I realize there are governmetn regulations concerning what you
can and cannot say about stuff.

I maintain a culture of cladophora algae ("moss rocks"). It
would be good to know if Flourish Excel is harmfull to
them at regualr ot higher dosage. Ie, a warning would be handy.


To answer your question, algae will not fare too well when Flourish
Excel is dosed as recommended. Yes, a warning is probably a good idea.
It had not been thought of to date as typically algae is not desired in
a planted aquarium.

-Greg Morin

--

Gregory Morin, Ph.D. ~~~~~~~President/CEO~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Seachem Laboratories, Inc. www.seachem.com 888-SEACHEM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So is Excel an algicide? Certainly not. Have people found
it inhibis algae growth? Most have.

Have you tried seevral large water changes? How often do you change
water in this problem tank?


--
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  #33   Report Post  
Old 17-01-2005, 07:09 PM
Victor Martinez
 
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Richard wrote:
A 3rd party would have to do such a study and even then we could not
disclose any findings showing algacidal activity... the 3rd party
could and others could discuss it... but we could not ... yes it is


Sounds like an interesting research project for a grad student in
chemistry/biology/biochemistry... I'd be willing to co-supervise the
research if anybody is interested.

--
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Owned and operated by the Fantastic Seven (TM)
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  #34   Report Post  
Old 18-01-2005, 12:07 AM
John Thomas
 
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To answer the original question...

Most environments have one 'rate limiting' nutrient- that is, the lack
of one nutrient constrains growth much more so than others. In marine
environments, it is often iron, in freshwater lakes, it is often phosphorus.

For example, in the case of your body, it's iron, which your body goes
to great lengths to tie up and make unavailable and pathogens go to
great lengths to get at. (Often by blowing up red blood cells and
grabbing the iron in the hemoglobin)
  #35   Report Post  
Old 18-01-2005, 06:45 PM
Tony Volk
 
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How about a better source (encyclopedias are great for primary school
projects)-

http://www.sidwell.edu/us/science/vl...arya/Protista/
http://www.sidwell.edu/us/science/vl...karya/Plantae/
http://clab.cecil.cc.md.us/faculty/biology1/plants.htm
http://www.plantphys.net/article.php?ch=t&id=17

Bottom line about algae being plants - it depends. On the algae, and on
who/when is classifying them.

Tony

"Margolis" wrote in message
...
"js1" wrote in message
...

You must have missed the part where it says, "All algae lack true
leaves, roots, flowers, and other tissue structures found in higher
plants."




they may lack those, but they are still simple plants. They lack the
structure of HIGHER plants, but that doesn't mean that they are not

plants

--

Margolis

http://web.archive.org/web/200302152...qs/AGQ2FAQ.htm
http://www.unrealtower.org/faq








  #36   Report Post  
Old 18-01-2005, 08:33 PM
John Thomas
 
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All plants are Eukaryota. Algae are a kind of plant. All algae are
eukaryota. Algae are distinguished from other plants by their lack of
cellular differentiation.

All algae have chloroplasts. All plants have chloroplasts, which are
captured bacterial symbionts. The capture event is over a billion years
back, if rRNA is any good as a molecular clock. (So far, so good, at
least) Unlike most other organelles in plant cells, chloroplasts have
their own DNA and control their own division and replication apart from
their host.

Unfortunately, some people off handedly call cyanobacteria, green
sulfur, green non-sulfur, purple non-sulfur, and purple sulfur
photosynthetic bacteria algae when they're not- they're Prokayota,
commonly refered to as bacteria.


Further reading on the web:
Explanation of celluar differentiation:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cellular_differentiation
Lynn Margulis' endosymbiont theory:
http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/abstract/93/3/1071
The Tree of Life:
http://tolweb.org/tree/phylogeny.html
The Ribosomal Batabase Project
http://rdp.cme.msu.edu/index.jsp
  #37   Report Post  
Old 19-01-2005, 02:47 AM
[email protected]
 
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BBA= poor CO2 issues.
Nothing to do with reduction, 90%(or higher) of the time: folks need to
add more CO2, PO4, not less.
Things you do not want to add: too many fish, fish food, NH4, not clean
filters, general neglect, lack of prunign, etc.

Keep in mind that Excel adds carbon as well.
Adding CO2 properly could be considered a mild algicide as well:-)
Regards,
Tom Barr

  #38   Report Post  
Old 19-01-2005, 03:00 AM
[email protected]
 
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Green algae are still considered in Plantae, Charophyceans/Coleocheteae
are very plant like and have differentiated cells, in many ways so do
Caulperales, kelps etc, they went a different pathway but are extremely
successful and very plant like.

Byrophytes are an odd group as well.

BGA, Cyanophyta/Cyanobacteria (whatever you prefer to call them,
Cyanobacteria works well) are very unlike ANY other group of bacteria,
so much so I'd consider them almost in their own group, they possess
thyalkloids, but not chloroplast. Most folks that do the work on this
group are phycologist, not microbiologist, most of us retain the term
BGA as a common name. Zoo folks call Divisions, phylums and plant folks
call phylums Divisions, depending on what side of the fence you are on.

I did like that you referred to algae as "a type of plant".
Regards,
Tom Barr

  #39   Report Post  
Old 20-01-2005, 03:54 AM
Kay
 
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js1 wrote:
On 2005-01-11, blank wrote:

eg., java fern, java moss, elodea, amazon swords etc etc. Each week I do a
50% water change and add the following Seachem products: 35ml Excel, 3ml
Supplement, 4ml Nitrogen, 4ml Phosphorous, 10ml Potassium, 7ml Iron.
Filtration is an Eheim Pro II 2028.



If you do a search, you'll find interviews and articles from Seachem
reps who basically say that a tank stocked with fish should produce
enough nitrates and phosphates to feed the plants in a tank. Seems like
you only need nitrogen and phosphorus if you have little to no fauna.
I add Flourish, Excel, and potassium. My algae has come under control
even with it sitting next to a window.



I use Florish, Excel and Potassium and I have no algae either, been
using it for years, especially the Excel.

Kay
  #40   Report Post  
Old 20-01-2005, 03:57 AM
Kay
 
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Richard wrote:
In article ,
Margolis wrote:

"Richard" wrote in message ...

Keep in mind Excel is an algicide.




Not really. In fact, algae grows quite well with excel, it seems to like
it.




Yeah, really.

You must have way more algae than it can handle then. If you write to Greg,
CEO of Sea-Chem and ask him if it's safe to grow Cladophoa he'll tell
you no, it'll kill it. But US Government regulations prevent him from
claiming it's an algicide.

It may not be a great algicide but the acetyl compound in it that releases
carbon is death on algae. (Even acetic acid kills algae in small doses).


Richard,
I have been using Excel for years for my plants and for algae control,
ever since I have used it, I have never had any algae in my tanks. My
plants grow nicely and I don't have to worry about algae.

Kay


  #41   Report Post  
Old 20-01-2005, 03:26 PM
Victor Martinez
 
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Kay wrote:
I have been using Excel for years for my plants and for algae control,
ever since I have used it, I have never had any algae in my tanks. My
plants grow nicely and I don't have to worry about algae.


I must say I was a bit skeptical at first. However, in my last water
change, I dosed with Excel in the large tank (110g). It's been 3 or 4
days (I dosed again yesterday) and the algae does seem to be
declining!!! I know it's too early to tell, but it seems to be working.
I'll report progress as I see it.

--
Victor M. Martinez
Owned and operated by the Fantastic Seven (TM)
Send your spam he
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  #42   Report Post  
Old 22-01-2005, 06:56 AM
Kay
 
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Victor Martinez wrote:
Kay wrote:

I have been using Excel for years for my plants and for algae control,
ever since I have used it, I have never had any algae in my tanks. My
plants grow nicely and I don't have to worry about algae.



I must say I was a bit skeptical at first. However, in my last water
change, I dosed with Excel in the large tank (110g). It's been 3 or 4
days (I dosed again yesterday) and the algae does seem to be
declining!!! I know it's too early to tell, but it seems to be working.
I'll report progress as I see it.

Yes thats what seemed to happen to all my tanks till there was none and
in a shorter time than I expected.

Kay
  #43   Report Post  
Old 22-01-2005, 08:38 AM
blank
 
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"Kay" wrote in message
news
Victor Martinez wrote:
Kay wrote:

I have been using Excel for years for my plants and for algae control,
ever since I have used it, I have never had any algae in my tanks. My
plants grow nicely and I don't have to worry about algae.



I must say I was a bit skeptical at first. However, in my last water
change, I dosed with Excel in the large tank (110g). It's been 3 or 4
days (I dosed again yesterday) and the algae does seem to be
declining!!! I know it's too early to tell, but it seems to be working.
I'll report progress as I see it.

Yes thats what seemed to happen to all my tanks till there was none and
in a shorter time than I expected.

Kay


OK, I am going to give it a try. Will add ONLY excel for a few weeks and
see what happens.


  #44   Report Post  
Old 24-01-2005, 02:12 AM
Kay
 
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blank wrote:
"Kay" wrote in message
news
Victor Martinez wrote:

Kay wrote:


I have been using Excel for years for my plants and for algae control,
ever since I have used it, I have never had any algae in my tanks. My
plants grow nicely and I don't have to worry about algae.


I must say I was a bit skeptical at first. However, in my last water
change, I dosed with Excel in the large tank (110g). It's been 3 or 4
days (I dosed again yesterday) and the algae does seem to be
declining!!! I know it's too early to tell, but it seems to be working.
I'll report progress as I see it.


Yes thats what seemed to happen to all my tanks till there was none and
in a shorter time than I expected.

Kay



OK, I am going to give it a try. Will add ONLY excel for a few weeks and
see what happens.



Please let us know how you like or dislike it. I think it will work for
you, but let us know anyhow ok?

Kay
  #45   Report Post  
Old 25-01-2005, 02:43 AM
Robert Flory
 
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Don't dose with Excel if you are using any kind of CO2. I lost a lot of fish
some time back when I got the bright idea of suplimenting my CO2 with Excel.

I'm not sure what the problem was but it was in part species related. I
lost all my Amicus Splendens as well as some cheaper fish. Every one perked
up with a big water change.

bob


"Victor Martinez" wrote in message
...
Kay wrote:
I have been using Excel for years for my plants and for algae control,
ever since I have used it, I have never had any algae in my tanks. My
plants grow nicely and I don't have to worry about algae.


I must say I was a bit skeptical at first. However, in my last water
change, I dosed with Excel in the large tank (110g). It's been 3 or 4 days
(I dosed again yesterday) and the algae does seem to be declining!!! I
know it's too early to tell, but it seems to be working. I'll report
progress as I see it.

--
Victor M. Martinez
Owned and operated by the Fantastic Seven (TM)
Send your spam he
Email me he





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