Hi all, im new to plants in the aquarium (the uk has a tradition of UG
filters, so plants are a no no)

But, ive just set up a new (bloody snail free) tank, 30 gallons, fitted
a big clip on filter and am looking to get some plants.

I have had a look around the news groups and it seems that everyone is
using co2 (ive been away from fish keeping or a few years, it was in its
infancy when i last saw it) and i just wondered is it essential to have
this set up in a tank. (i mostly keep cichlids and would like to keep
the outlay to plants and lights for this tank if its possible)

I currently have a gravel bed, a plant growing lighting tube (it was
reccomended by the lfs,) cant remember the name, a filter and so on.

will this do to grow a few plants in a community tank or am i going to
have to fork out top dollar to get a healthy looking tank?

Cheers for any help you can give Craig

(also, i know from fish keeping that im sure this will balloon into a
mass spending spree where i end up with an aquatic rain forest in the
end, but id like to keep it small to start, lol... my god, thats how i
ended up with a bloody oscar in a 4' tank by itself )



--
Posted via CichlidFish.com
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Craig wrote:
Hi all, im new to plants in the aquarium (the uk has a tradition of
UG
filters, so plants are a no no)

But, ive just set up a new (bloody snail free) tank, 30 gallons,
fitted
a big clip on filter and am looking to get some plants.

Excellent! I was standing in the same spot a few months ago. I'd just
set up my 55g again, and like before, used the uplift tubes and had
UGF. Through reading, I've now gone to a pre-filtered (inlet filter
made from filter floss and rubber bands) RUGF on one half and a
standard hang on back AquaClear in the other corner.


I have had a look around the news groups and it seems that everyone
is
using co2 (ive been away from fish keeping or a few years, it was in
its
infancy when i last saw it) and i just wondered is it essential to
have
this set up in a tank. (i mostly keep cichlids and would like to keep
the outlay to plants and lights for this tank if its possible)

Yup, yup, me too. I read up on it, but really wondered about the
people who would go to such great lengths. Kinda obsessed they were,
it seemed.


I currently have a gravel bed, a plant growing lighting tube (it was
reccomended by the lfs,) cant remember the name, a filter and so on.

Ditto. I got two new coralife tubes for my birthday in October. 30
watts total! (Wanted to have some really great light for those plants
I would soon buy)


will this do to grow a few plants in a community tank or am i going
to
have to fork out top dollar to get a healthy looking tank?

Yes and yes, I say with a Chesshire grin.


Cheers for any help you can give Craig


Help? There is no help. You've just taken the first steps down a road
with no return. Your next paragraph is your prophecy I'm afraid.

(also, i know from fish keeping that im sure this will balloon into a
mass spending spree where i end up with an aquatic rain forest in the
end, but id like to keep it small to start, lol... my god, thats how
i
ended up with a bloody oscar in a 4' tank by itself )


Snicker, giggle.
Chuckle, snorph.

(Guy started with a guppy in a 10 litre tank and it soon turned into an
Oscar, that he named Ferguson, in a 200 litre tank!)

Craig, Like I said earlier, I got started up again after being
tankless for a couple of years. I set up the 55g with a couple of neon
tetras, cory cats and a couple of Angel fish. Then, I read about some
low light plants I could keep; Java moss and Java fern. Those looked
okay. I read about C02, but really wondered if it would be worth it.
I had a conversation with my son one day, as I was updating him on the
fish tanks in the back room. I told him about C02, and I'd avowed not
to go to that extreme. I further explained to him, that didn't want to
fuss with yeast, and surely wasn't going to fork out $250 for a full
pressurized set up! Good lord! Such insanity! For a plant!

Now, just two months later, I've got a 5lb tank supplying 80 bubbles
per minute to a Hagen diffuser ladder for a C02 level of 20 ppm. I add
Potassium Nitrate in small amounts as well as Potassium Phosphate and
other trace elements. Of course, I HAD to do this because my tank was
full of every exotic specie of plant I could find in Washington. A
veritable Tarzanian jungle of Crypts, Swords, grasses, Ludwiga, Rotala
and others. http://www.geocities.com/erviservy/dwarfgrass.jpg
Why did I have so many plants? Well of course, to make the java moss
grow faster I first bought a JBJ 36 watt, 6,700 lumen fixture for one
end of the hood, directely over the fern and moss. Well, the fixtures
went on sale a while later so I bought another. Then the tank lighting
was out of balance so I bought a retro fit kit and put together a 65w,
10,000 "Light of a Super Nova" fixture on the other hood. With all
that light, I had algae growing in epic proportions! I HAD to add C02
so the plants could utilize the nutrients, and therefore starve out the
algae.

Sorry my friend, either stop now with your guppy tank and some java
moss, or prepare for the long haul. There is no middle ground for
those like us.

Sincerely,
steve "20 gallon tank with Apistogramma Borellii fry, 20 gallon tank
with the angels and some neons, 55 gallon tank with some neons, the
breeding pairs of Borellii, cory cats, ottos, and now SHRIMP!)

In article ,
Craig -DONTEMAIL wrote:
Hi all, im new to plants in the aquarium (the uk has a tradition of UG
filters, so plants are a no no)

But, ive just set up a new (bloody snail free) tank, 30 gallons, fitted
a big clip on filter and am looking to get some plants.

I have had a look around the news groups and it seems that everyone is
using co2 (ive been away from fish keeping or a few years, it was in its
infancy when i last saw it) and i just wondered is it essential to have
this set up in a tank.

Absolutley not. If you want outrageous plant growth use very strong ligthing
and CO2. But in a tank with resonable lighting your plants will grow just
fine without it if you choose plants that don't require stupid high amounts
of light (glosso, etc).

Even in a moderatly lit tank CO2 by itself will do more good than strong lights
by themselves.

Excel Flourish can be used instead of C02 and gets you roughly 80% there.

--
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1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Old wris****ches http://watches.list.mbz.org

On 2005-01-15, Craig -DONTEMAIL wrote:
Hi all, im new to plants in the aquarium (the uk has a tradition of UG
filters, so plants are a no no)


http://www.plantgeek.net/article_viewer.php?id=17

But, ive just set up a new (bloody snail free) tank, 30 gallons, fitted
a big clip on filter and am looking to get some plants.


Not all snails are bad for plant tanks.

http://www.applesnail.net/content/sp...a_bridgesi.htm

I have had a look around the news groups and it seems that everyone is
using co2 (ive been away from fish keeping or a few years, it was in its
infancy when i last saw it) and i just wondered is it essential to have
this set up in a tank. (i mostly keep cichlids and would like to keep
the outlay to plants and lights for this tank if its possible)


You only need CO2 if you have the lighting and plants that need it.
If you're new to the plant game, I'd highly recommend low to medium
light plants. I have found in my limited experience that 2-2.5 W/gal
is easier to manage.

--
"I have to decide between two equally frightening options.
If I wanted to do that, I'd vote." --Duckman

Craig wrote:
Hi all, im new to plants in the aquarium (the uk has a tradition of UG
filters, so plants are a no no)

But, ive just set up a new (bloody snail free) tank, 30 gallons, fitted
a big clip on filter and am looking to get some plants.

I have had a look around the news groups and it seems that everyone is
using co2 (ive been away from fish keeping or a few years, it was in its
infancy when i last saw it) and i just wondered is it essential to have
this set up in a tank. (i mostly keep cichlids and would like to keep
the outlay to plants and lights for this tank if its possible)

I currently have a gravel bed, a plant growing lighting tube (it was
reccomended by the lfs,) cant remember the name, a filter and so on.

will this do to grow a few plants in a community tank or am i going to
have to fork out top dollar to get a healthy looking tank?

Cheers for any help you can give Craig

(also, i know from fish keeping that im sure this will balloon into a
mass spending spree where i end up with an aquatic rain forest in the
end, but id like to keep it small to start, lol... my god, thats how i
ended up with a bloody oscar in a 4' tank by itself )

You'll be fine without CO2. Bright lighting and CO2 just means you can
grow almost anything you toss in the tank. Lower light and no CO2 means
some experimentation to see what likes your particular setup. Also less
algae! I'd try plants like Crypt. wendtii, Anubias spp. , Sagittaria
spp., Java moss, or Java fern and see what grows. Use an iron
fertilizer and put laterite or other iron-containing tablets in the
gravel at the roots of any Crypts you buy.

--
__ Elaine T __
__' http://eethomp.com/fish.html '__

Richard wrote:

Even in a moderatly lit tank CO2 by itself will do more good than strong lights
by themselves.

Excel Flourish can be used instead of C02 and gets you roughly 80% there.

Have you used this much? Stably CO2 injecting my current 2 and 5 gallon
tanks would be virtually impossible and ridiculously expensive so I was
just figuring on running with average plant growth.

The spec sheet says it poisons Anubias spp., which I grow. Does it
affect anything else or bother fish?

TIA
--
__ Elaine T __
__' http://eethomp.com/fish.html '__

In article ,
Elaine T wrote:
Richard wrote:

Even in a moderatly lit tank CO2 by itself will do more good than strong lights
by themselves.

Excel Flourish can be used instead of C02 and gets you roughly 80% there.

Have you used this much?

No.

I don't bother with it or CO2. Ihave too many tanks for this to be practical
until they're all on a continusous flow system.

The spec sheet says it poisons Anubias spp., which I grow. Does it
affect anything else or bother fish?

Excel kills Anubias? News to me. Doesn't sound right.

--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
http://www.mbz.org | Mercedes Mailing lists: http://lists.mbz.org
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | Killies, killi.net, Crypts, aquaria.net
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Old wris****ches http://watches.list.mbz.org

Richard wrote:
In article ,
Elaine T wrote:

Richard wrote:

Even in a moderatly lit tank CO2 by itself will do more good than strong lights
by themselves.

Excel Flourish can be used instead of C02 and gets you roughly 80% there.


Have you used this much?


No.

I don't bother with it or CO2. Ihave too many tanks for this to be practical
until they're all on a continusous flow system.


The spec sheet says it poisons Anubias spp., which I grow. Does it
affect anything else or bother fish?


Excel kills Anubias? News to me. Doesn't sound right.


Aaaaugh! *blush* Went back to
http://www.seachem.com/support/FAQs/...Excel_faq.html and realized
it says Anacharis, not Anubias. My bad reading. I don't ever grow
Anacharis so my addled brain neatly substituted Anubias.

Sorry for any confusion.

--
__ Elaine T __
__' http://eethomp.com/fish.html '__

I'm moving this to a new thread. Many have observed algae die-offs in
tanks treated with Seachem Flourish Excel and I want to float (so to
speak) a hypothesis as to why it might be algicidal. One of the
components in Flourish Excel converts iron from it's ferric 3+ state
back to its more soluble ferrous 2+ state.

Iron is not generally toxic by itself, but it functions as an oxidizing
and reducing agent in biological systems, including fishtanks. My
hypothesis is that reduced iron is generating toxic oxygen species in
iron-rich tanks treated with Flourish Excel. The chemistry here is from
this review. http://www.gci.ac.uk/lab/reviews/pwrev.html

Iron tends to react with dissolved oxygen in water. This reaction is
predominantly to the right as ferric iron tends to fall out of solution
and superoxide is rare under normal tank conditions.
Fe2+ + 02 -- Fe3+ + 02·- (superoxide radical)

There is also a relatively rare reaction of ferrous iron and water to
create hydroxyl radicals. Hydroxyl radicals are very reactive and will
tend to rip ·H off of the next organic molecule they encounter, be it
DOC, fish, plant, or algae.
Fe2+ + OH- -- Fe3+ ·OH (hydroxyl radical)

So superoxide radicals form an equilibrium in water and hang around for
a while at pH 7. Superoxide is somewhat toxic and I'd be surprised if
algae and bacteria can handle large amounts.
O2·- + H+ -- HO2·

Three reactions take place to convert superoxide into hydrogen peroxide.
Now we're getting somewhere. Algae definately don't like peroxide.
2 HO2· -- H2O2 + 02
HO2· + O2·- + H+ -- H2O2 + O2
2 O2·- + 2 H+ -- H2O2 + O2.

Peroxide can react again by the Fenton Reaction. More toxic hydroxyl
radicals are generated in this pathway.
Fe2+ + H2O2 - Fe3+ + OH- + ·OH

So, my guess is that the the ferrous iron created by the iron reducing
reagent in Flourish Excel is creating peroxide, superoxide, and hydroxyl
radicals in the tanks (in unknown proportions). The former two are more
toxic to lower life forms than fish and plants because fish and plants
have enzymes to detoxify them. Hydroxyl radicals are highly reactive
and will damage anything they encounter. Most probably just react with
DOC in the water column. As long as the Excel reducing agent keeps the
tank's iron reduced, reactive oxygen species will continue being
generated. The amount will depend at a minimum upon on the tank's iron
levels, pH, and DOC.

Please, anyone who's good with iron chemistry see if this makes sense.

--
__ Elaine T __
__' http://eethomp.com/fish.html '__

The implication seems to be "add more excel and alage will suffer even more".

*snaps fingers* Redox! Flourish Excel has a reducing agent in it that
reduces iron to Fe2+, an oxidizer. Algae are sensitive to peroxide and
permanganate. Fe2+ is an oxidizer and reduces itself back to Fe3+ in
water by donating an electron to a water molecule, making HOO-, which
rapidly combines with H+ to make hydrogen peroxide.

Yeah, I thought that too:

"There is no residual H2O2 from Flourish Excel use. As I mentioned in my
previous e-mail Flourish Excel will not degrade to yield peroxide.

-Greg Morin

--

Gregory Morin, Ph.D. ~~~~~~~President/CEO~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Seachem Laboratories, Inc. www.seachem.com 888-SEACHEM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~"


But, I think you're on the right track. These things inhibit/kill algae:

Excel
Fast growing plants
Peroxide

What do they all have in common? They raise the redox potential.

Algae favours stagnant water. Oxygen would seem to do it in.

I think I notice less alage in tanks whose sponge filters output
2'3" above the water line compared to those that bubble it out AT
the water surface. But I only see this in a couple of tanks so
I can't really be certain. Just another data point.

--
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http://www.mbz.org | Mercedes Mailing lists: http://lists.mbz.org
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | Killies, killi.net, Crypts, aquaria.net
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Old wris****ches http://watches.list.mbz.org

Please, anyone who's good with iron chemistry see if this makes sense.

This "iron hypothesis" is one possability.

Frmo my understanding from what Greg has said the active ingredient
is an acetyl compound (if I rememebr correctly). Vinegar absolutely
is an algicide. I think that's the pathway that is responsible but
this is just a gut hunch.

--
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http://www.mbz.org | Mercedes Mailing lists: http://lists.mbz.org
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | Killies, killi.net, Crypts, aquaria.net
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Old wris****ches http://watches.list.mbz.org

On 2005-01-17, Elaine T wrote:

Aaaaugh! *blush* Went back to
http://www.seachem.com/support/FAQs/...Excel_faq.html and realized
it says Anacharis, not Anubias. My bad reading. I don't ever grow
Anacharis so my addled brain neatly substituted Anubias.


Hey, that explains what happened to my anacharis!


--
"I have to decide between two equally frightening options.
If I wanted to do that, I'd vote." --Duckman

thanks for all the help, it is very appreciated.

I already had some java fern in there and it was growing fine (until i
had to store some silver dollars beforing adding them to an oscar
tank... and, once that failed, storing them in the java fern tank til i
could return them to the store)

needless to say, the fern was soon destroyed (although it is sprouting
again now).

i went to the local pet store and bought some tall, red and green
(green inside, red outside) plants, broad leaves, all stemming from the
central base.

i also got a plant of similar size (about 8 inches high) it broad
spinich like leaves in a pale green.

I then got a few bunches of, well its like crab grass, with waxy, dark
green leaves.

I put them all in the tank, and the shoots of new leaves are already
growing towards the light after 5 days.

any ideas on how to identify plants or a site that would be helpful?

cheers again for all the help

Craig

ps: i gave the pet store woman quite a shock, asking beginner questions
about the plants, ie: will it be ok just going in the gravel? or is
it in local water?

then managing to ask really complex questions about filer media and
such, i was quite proud.



--
Posted via CichlidFish.com
http://www.cichlidfish.com/portal/forums

"Craig" -DONTEMAIL wrote in message
...
thanks for all the help, it is very appreciated.

I already had some java fern in there and it was growing fine (until i
had to store some silver dollars beforing adding them to an oscar
tank... and, once that failed, storing them in the java fern tank til i
could return them to the store)

needless to say, the fern was soon destroyed (although it is sprouting
again now).

i went to the local pet store and bought some tall, red and green
(green inside, red outside) plants, broad leaves, all stemming from the
central base.

i also got a plant of similar size (about 8 inches high) it broad
spinich like leaves in a pale green.

I then got a few bunches of, well its like crab grass, with waxy, dark
green leaves.

I put them all in the tank, and the shoots of new leaves are already
growing towards the light after 5 days.

any ideas on how to identify plants or a site that would be helpful?

cheers again for all the help

Craig

ps: i gave the pet store woman quite a shock, asking beginner questions
about the plants, ie: will it be ok just going in the gravel? or is
it in local water?

then managing to ask really complex questions about filer media and
such, i was quite proud.

try http://www.plantgeek.net/

Oz

--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith

at least the lady is knowledgeable. some salespersons simply cannot make it
when asked questions other than their products and they tried to smoke
through.

"Craig" -DONTEMAIL wrote in message
...
thanks for all the help, it is very appreciated.

I already had some java fern in there and it was growing fine (until i
had to store some silver dollars beforing adding them to an oscar
tank... and, once that failed, storing them in the java fern tank til i
could return them to the store)

needless to say, the fern was soon destroyed (although it is sprouting
again now).

i went to the local pet store and bought some tall, red and green
(green inside, red outside) plants, broad leaves, all stemming from the
central base.

i also got a plant of similar size (about 8 inches high) it broad
spinich like leaves in a pale green.

I then got a few bunches of, well its like crab grass, with waxy, dark
green leaves.

I put them all in the tank, and the shoots of new leaves are already
growing towards the light after 5 days.

any ideas on how to identify plants or a site that would be helpful?

cheers again for all the help

Craig

ps: i gave the pet store woman quite a shock, asking beginner questions
about the plants, ie: will it be ok just going in the gravel? or is
it in local water?

then managing to ask really complex questions about filer media and
such, i was quite proud.



--
Posted via CichlidFish.com
http://www.cichlidfish.com/portal/forums