As for worms, tetra delica bloodworms have min 0.9% and I found an
article at
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/c...35746/ABSTRACT
showing freeze dried earthworms at 0.8%, waxworms at 1.2%, and mealworms
varying widely from 0.8% to 1.4% phosphorus depending on the strain.
Hikari reports 0.1% phosphorus max for their freeze dried bloodworms and
tubifex, but that does not appear to be compatible with living worms, so
I doubt their number.

So...you're probably feeding medium phosphate level food, around 0.8% to
1% if your worms are similar to others. As for amount, dunno. I
haven't seen you feed but I know how much a hungry killi can eat!

The funny thing is the Ammano shrimp eat more white worms than the
killies do.

Yahbut, tubifex eat sewage and presumably there's tons of phosphates
in there. Wouldnt this all really depends on the amount of phosphate in
pumpernikle bread I feed the worms?

--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
http://www.mbz.org | Mercedes Mailing lists: http://lists.mbz.org
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | Killies, killi.net, Crypts, aquaria.net
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Old wris****ches http://watches.list.mbz.org

Richard Sexton wrote:
As for worms, tetra delica bloodworms have min 0.9% and I found an
article at
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/c...35746/ABSTRACT
showing freeze dried earthworms at 0.8%, waxworms at 1.2%, and mealworms
varying widely from 0.8% to 1.4% phosphorus depending on the strain.
Hikari reports 0.1% phosphorus max for their freeze dried bloodworms and
tubifex, but that does not appear to be compatible with living worms, so
I doubt their number.

So...you're probably feeding medium phosphate level food, around 0.8% to
1% if your worms are similar to others. As for amount, dunno. I
haven't seen you feed but I know how much a hungry killi can eat!


The funny thing is the Ammano shrimp eat more white worms than the
killies do.

Yahbut, tubifex eat sewage and presumably there's tons of phosphates
in there. Wouldnt this all really depends on the amount of phosphate in
pumpernikle bread I feed the worms?

Not so much. The worms have to build DNA, RNA, cell membranes, and all
the other chemicals that contain phosphate from the bread. They will
retain the phosphate and other valuable minerals from their diet and
excrete the excess nitrogen and fiber. If you were phosphate starving
your worm cultures, they would not grow and reproduce well.

There may be some bread (relatively low in phosphate) in the worm's
digestive tract when you feed but the worm itself is the phosphate source.

--
__ Elaine T __
__' http://eethomp.com/fish.html '__

55g tank, 48L 20H 12W
pH 6.7 with C02 injection at 20ppm
KH 3deg
temp 79f
Nitrates between 5 and 20, fluctuate with the amount of KNO3 I add.
Potassium and Phosphorus added minimally per the dosing pages. I shoot
for the optimun amount. There are a couple of plant spikes (trace
elements) deep under the large plants.

I've got 5 ottos in there, and just added a couple of large amano
shrimp, but those critters aren't going to touch this fuzz stuff if it
comes back strong like this past week.
thanks for any hints, suggestions,
steve


I've had an algae problem in my 90gal with a similar setup. It's not a
Phophate problem, you can try and limit phophates but you'll notice all
your plant growth slow down which means less competition for the algae
(been there, done that).
Algae loves crap.. yeah the stuff from the fish. NH4, urea etc. That heavy
fishload will be causing the same problems as mine are (big fishload also).

I'd recommend doing what you already did for plant cleanup (a dip in
chlorine, H2O2 etc) to get them free and a head start, but I would also do
a large water change with a massive gravel vacuum. When I pulled up all my
plants for a cleaning I did the water change at the same time and vacuumed
all the gravel hard and deep until it was clear. So no more crap rotting
and that about fixed it in one shot... it's in my books now as a bi-yearly
(?) thing as long as I keep my present fishload.

P.

BTW hope those spikes are trace only, no urea or such for an N source.

On 2005-01-20, Pete wrote:

I've had an algae problem in my 90gal with a similar setup. It's not a
Phophate problem, you can try and limit phophates but you'll notice all
your plant growth slow down which means less competition for the algae
(been there, done that).
Algae loves crap.. yeah the stuff from the fish. NH4, urea etc. That heavy
fishload will be causing the same problems as mine are (big fishload also).

I'd recommend doing what you already did for plant cleanup (a dip in
chlorine, H2O2 etc) to get them free and a head start, but I would also do
a large water change with a massive gravel vacuum. When I pulled up all my
plants for a cleaning I did the water change at the same time and vacuumed
all the gravel hard and deep until it was clear. So no more crap rotting
and that about fixed it in one shot... it's in my books now as a bi-yearly
(?) thing as long as I keep my present fishload.


Well, now you're arguing a causality problem. I can't give a scientific
explaination, but I'd have to guess the phosphates are feeding the
algae. The algae is growing so fast that it's also taking up the
nitrates (produced by the decaying stuff) as well. My guess would
be by backing down on the phosphates, it slows the growth of the algae,
and gives the plants a chance to fight for the nitrates.

--
"I have to decide between two equally frightening options.
If I wanted to do that, I'd vote." --Duckman

Pete wrote:


I'd recommend doing what you already did for plant cleanup (a dip in
chlorine, H2O2 etc) to get them free and a head start, but I would
also do
a large water change with a massive gravel vacuum. When I pulled up
all my
plants for a cleaning I did the water change at the same time and
vacuumed
all the gravel hard and deep until it was clear. So no more crap
rotting
and that about fixed it in one shot... it's in my books now as a
bi-yearly
(?) thing as long as I keep my present fishload.

P.

BTW hope those spikes are trace only, no urea or such for an N
source.

Ya know, call me stupid, but I think you've hit the nail on the head.
After my first foray with these plant fert bombs, I had an immediate
explosion of green water. I won that battle. Now, shortly after
placing these bombs again, shazzam! algae infestation of epic
proportions. I did check the ingredients, and thought they were safe.
Mostly the trace elements, with very low nitrogen or phosphorous. I'll
look again and see if they actually identify urea or NO4. If I leave
them covered up and undisturbed I think (hope) the plants will eat
them.

I'm diligent with my gravel vacc'ing, but 34 fish, fed to nearly
popping, will produce a large amount of waste in between cleanings.
Now, I've put the two large angels and half (11) the tetras in another
tank so I think I can control the N better.
thanks for the advice,
steve

steve wrote:

Ya know, call me stupid, but I think you've hit the nail on the head.
After my first foray with these plant fert bombs, I had an immediate
explosion of green water. I won that battle. Now, shortly after
placing these bombs again, shazzam! algae infestation of epic
proportions. I did check the ingredients, and thought they were safe.
Mostly the trace elements, with very low nitrogen or phosphorous. I'll
look again and see if they actually identify urea or NO4. If I leave
them covered up and undisturbed I think (hope) the plants will eat
them.

What brand are your fertilizer pellets, so I know what to avoid? I just
added Aquarium Pharmaceuticals Root Tabs plus Iron laterite pellets to
my tank a week or so ago and so far so good.

TIA!
--
__ Elaine T __
__' http://eethomp.com/fish.html '__

Elaine T wrote:

What brand are your fertilizer pellets, so I know what to avoid? I
just
added Aquarium Pharmaceuticals Root Tabs plus Iron laterite pellets
to
my tank a week or so ago and so far so good.


They are Flourish Tabs:
http://www.petmeister.com/item801.htm

"Flourish Tabs are growth stimulating tablets for plant roots. They
contain essential trace elements, amino acids, and vitamins. They are
rich in iron, manganese, magnesium, calcium, potassium, inositol,
choline B12, biotin, and other factors that have been determined to be
beneficial to aquatic plant roots. They contain no phosphate or nitrate
that would promote algae proliferation."

I remember reading the ingredients before putting them in my tank
again, because I thought they were the probable cause of "Green water
2004". The ingredients look bland enough, no urea or xx percent
phosphate to worry about. But "twice bitten oh my butt hurts now", or
how ever that goes, I'm not putting them in again.

steve

js1 wrote in :

On 2005-01-20, Pete wrote:

I've had an algae problem in my 90gal with a similar setup. It's not
a Phophate problem, you can try and limit phophates but you'll notice
all your plant growth slow down which means less competition for the
algae (been there, done that).
Algae loves crap.. yeah the stuff from the fish. NH4, urea etc. That
heavy fishload will be causing the same problems as mine are (big
fishload also).

I'd recommend doing what you already did for plant cleanup (a dip in
chlorine, H2O2 etc) to get them free and a head start, but I would
also do a large water change with a massive gravel vacuum. When I
pulled up all my plants for a cleaning I did the water change at the
same time and vacuumed all the gravel hard and deep until it was
clear. So no more crap rotting and that about fixed it in one shot...
it's in my books now as a bi-yearly (?) thing as long as I keep my
present fishload.


Well, now you're arguing a causality problem. I can't give a
scientific explaination, but I'd have to guess the phosphates are
feeding the algae. The algae is growing so fast that it's also taking
up the nitrates (produced by the decaying stuff) as well. My guess
would be by backing down on the phosphates, it slows the growth of the
algae, and gives the plants a chance to fight for the nitrates.


Yeah it's not an easy discussion as unless you are doing scientific
tests you can talk forever on what is or isn't causing your problems...
and since there are so many variables in your basic tank it a big
discussion.

The main reason I think (imo) it's not excess phosphates is I've been
down the route of limiting P before. No P ferts, P absorbing packs in
the filter etc. I still have small amounts of algae now (in corners
etc.) but my higher than 'official' recommended levels of P don't cause
any problems (I fert with P regularly) so I don't believe it's P alone
that causes a problem. Lowering P will reduce growth rates but it does
it for everything, plants included, so it still doesn't allow your
plants to out compete the algae. I've also added large amounts of P to
my tank to get levels way above the recommened and no huge explosion,
but add some urea (like accidently uprooting a mostly N jobe fert stick
made with urea) and boom.

So instead I've suggested the gravel cleanup (fish reduction would help
also but if you want lots of fish.....) on the principle that algae
thrives due the NH4 and stuff from the fish. So excess NH4 and some P
gives you a big problem, but why hit the P that both algae and the
plants you want to grow use, but not hit the NH4. Keep the P that plants
(and algae) need to grow well but try and hit the NH4 that seems to the
real algae favorite but the plants can do without. On that note adding
more plants and quicker growing plants (I love floating water lettuce)
helps.

P.

BTW. this is for a CO2 inj high light tank, non CO2 regular lighting
fert requirements are quite different.

"steve" wrote in news:1106252923.825651.298980
@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:

They are Flourish Tabs:
http://www.petmeister.com/item801.htm

"Flourish Tabs are growth stimulating tablets for plant roots. They
contain essential trace elements, amino acids, and vitamins. They are
rich in iron, manganese, magnesium, calcium, potassium, inositol,
choline B12, biotin, and other factors that have been determined to be
beneficial to aquatic plant roots. They contain no phosphate or nitrate
that would promote algae proliferation."

I remember reading the ingredients before putting them in my tank
again, because I thought they were the probable cause of "Green water
2004". The ingredients look bland enough, no urea or xx percent
phosphate to worry about. But "twice bitten oh my butt hurts now", or
how ever that goes, I'm not putting them in again.

steve



Yeah, they certainly look safe by the description. Guess the rule of thumb
is don't touch it if everything is growing nicely already

I actually don't fert the roots anymore as the plants don't seem to need
it. When pruning you chop the tops off and replant with zero roots and
they still do fine. All my ferts are done via the water which I can fine
tune with every other day doses with large weekend water changes to remove
any access, as opposed to a one time large dose into the ground (which you
may or may not accidently dig up when moving plants around).

P.

BTW NO3 is not a problem, I fert using 1/4tsp of KNO3 every other day, it's
the urea or NH4 form that will kill you.

Pete wrote:
"steve" wrote in
news:1106252923.825651.298980
@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:

They are Flourish Tabs:
http://www.petmeister.com/item801.htm


Yeah, they certainly look safe by the description. Guess the rule of
thumb
is don't touch it if everything is growing nicely already

I actually don't fert the roots anymore as the plants don't seem to
need
it. When pruning you chop the tops off and replant with zero roots
and
they still do fine. All my ferts are done via the water which I can
fine
tune with every other day doses with large weekend water changes to
remove
any access, as opposed to a one time large dose into the ground
(which you
may or may not accidently dig up when moving plants around).


My real guilt comes from lazyness in this case. I had the things
laying around and figgered by tossing them in I wouldn't have to dose
trace elements for a month or two. I picked up all the stuff I need
from G. Watson, just got caught taking a short cut. I'm going to leave
them in there and not disturb the substrate for a while and see how it
goes. If I do need to dig, I'm going to hover with the hoover while I
do it to remove any excess that get's released.

steve "gotta green thumb with dahlias, but still getting my feet wet
with aqua botanics" bloom