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-   -   That's it, I've had it - Blue Green Algae (https://www.gardenbanter.co.uk/freshwater-aquaria-plants/89763-thats-ive-had-blue-green-algae.html)

Shawn 13-02-2005 04:15 PM

That's it, I've had it - Blue Green Algae
 
I can't take it any more. I simply cannot beat or keep up with the
blue-green algae outbreak I've had now for about 5 months. I've tried
everything. Blacking out the tank, removing my CO2 system, algicide
treatments - nothing works. It makes my tanks look like crap, and it's
killing all my plants. Their leaves are coated with thick slimy green
sheets of blue-green algae, and they're falling apart little by little. My
plants used to thrive and my tank was lush. My community fish species don't
seem to care one way or another, but for me it's just simply not a joy to
watch my tank anymore.

So now, looks like I face a compete take down. But I have some questions :

1) Do blue-green algae cells die when dried, or do they just do dormant ?
The BGA is infused through my gravel substrate so I need to completely wash
that out when I take down. But do I need to treat it when bleach to ensure
BGA's death ? Or will just rinsing and rinsing and rinsing and then drying
for a while do the trick ?

2) Can I save my plants ? These seems to be the things most covered by BGA.
Right down into the roots in the gravel substrate. Can I bleach-dip the
plants and kill the algae ? Or am I better off throwing them out and
starting over ?

3) My driftwood pieces are also covered in BGA. Should I boil ? Dry ?
Bleach ? What about other things like my filter components. If BGA just
goes dormant when dried, then something more drastic needs to be done to
ensure I complete do away with it, other than just drying.

4) How should I treat my empty tank and for how long ?

Thanks about it. Any other thoughts/advice would be well appreciated.
Thanks.

Shawn



Richard Sexton 13-02-2005 06:02 PM


Have you tried large water changes and adding kno3? That's how I get
rid of it.


--
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1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Old wris****ches http://watches.list.mbz.org

Shagster 13-02-2005 09:45 PM

The ONLY thing that ever worked for me was Myracin. That product is
fabulous. Try it out, and follow the directions exactly.


Troy



"Richard Sexton" wrote in message
...

Have you tried large water changes and adding kno3? That's how I get
rid of it.


--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
http://www.mbz.org | Mercedes Mailing lists: http://lists.mbz.org
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | Killies, killi.net, Crypts, aquaria.net
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Old wris****ches http://watches.list.mbz.org




Shawn 13-02-2005 09:53 PM

My LFS tells me that Myacin and a whole suite of other anitbiotics and fish
medicine are no longer legal to be sold. Any ideas on where I could get it
online ?

Thanks


"Shagster" wrote in message
...
The ONLY thing that ever worked for me was Myracin. That product is
fabulous. Try it out, and follow the directions exactly.


Troy



"Richard Sexton" wrote in message
...

Have you tried large water changes and adding kno3? That's how I get
rid of it.


--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
http://www.mbz.org | Mercedes Mailing lists: http://lists.mbz.org
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | Killies, killi.net, Crypts, aquaria.net
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Old wris****ches http://watches.list.mbz.org






Shawn 13-02-2005 09:56 PM

Where can I get KNO3 ? Is that availabe at a LFS ? I do weekly large water
changes - nearly the entire tank actually, leaving just enough for the fish
to keep swimming, before I refill. Then I treat with something called
"ALGAEFIX". This knocked the crap out the BGA (as well as making the rest
of my plants look quite poor), and I contined the treatment for several
weeks, as it said in the directions. But once I stopped, with another
couple weeks the BGA reappeared and gradually got worse again. I don't want
to have to maintain my tank forever on medicine and chemicals. I ran it for
the first 4 years without a single breakout.

Shawn

"Richard Sexton" wrote in message
...

Have you tried large water changes and adding kno3? That's how I get
rid of it.


--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
http://www.mbz.org | Mercedes Mailing lists: http://lists.mbz.org
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | Killies, killi.net, Crypts, aquaria.net
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Old wris****ches http://watches.list.mbz.org




Robert Flory 13-02-2005 11:26 PM

Grants Stump remover. Iyt can be gotten at any garden shop, hardware store
or at places like the BORG and yardbirds.

Bob
"Shawn" wrote in message
...
Where can I get KNO3 ? Is that availabe at a LFS ? I do weekly large
water changes - nearly the entire tank actually, leaving just enough for
the fish to keep swimming, before I refill. Then I treat with something
called "ALGAEFIX". This knocked the crap out the BGA (as well as making
the rest of my plants look quite poor), and I contined the treatment for
several weeks, as it said in the directions. But once I stopped, with
another couple weeks the BGA reappeared and gradually got worse again. I
don't want to have to maintain my tank forever on medicine and chemicals.
I ran it for the first 4 years without a single breakout.

Shawn

"Richard Sexton" wrote in message
...

Have you tried large water changes and adding kno3? That's how I get
rid of it.


--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
http://www.mbz.org | Mercedes Mailing lists: http://lists.mbz.org
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | Killies, killi.net, Crypts, aquaria.net
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Old wris****ches http://watches.list.mbz.org






[email protected] 14-02-2005 01:53 AM

Shawn you will never have good results at prevention/reoccurance
without using KNO3.

That's a plant nutrient, antibiotics, algefix etc etc etc etc etc are
not.

The focus is growing the plants, not becoming versed in algicdal
products.
I find them to totally useless.

I might use H2O2. bleacj to clean equipment, but I jyust trim and
vacuum the algae out, that never harms the plants and removes the
problem.

BGA/Green water need killed and removed, or they will come back after
you correct the evnvironmental issues that caused the algae.

A 3 day blackout
50% water at the start and the end
Adding 1/4 teaspoon per 25 gal after each water change
Then adding 1/4 teaspoon at least 1-2x a week thereafter will prevent
BGA and other algae from ever bothering you.

Your plants will grow much better as well.

Algaefix, Antibiotics, Myacan, Snake oils will never make your plants
grow better.

3 day blackout is free.
Those are not.

try ordering from Greg www.gregwatson.com

Get:

2lbs or so KNO3
1 lb KH2PO4
1 lb Trace mix with Boron.

Dirt cheap and these actually grow plants and are very easy to dose and
add.

BGA will infect a tasnk about 1-2 months after treatment.
It's always there, so treating the reason why it appears..........poor
plant growth(even if you might not think so) will help prevent any
algae, not just BGA.

Just do this and do all of this advice and you will not have any BGA.
If you delete the KNO3, the BGA will simply come back.

The fisgh should remain in the tank etc, turn off the CO2.
The plants will be fine and live through 3 days of blackout, they are
sent via mail and can easily handle 3 days in the dark.

Regards,
Tom Barr












will


Richard Sexton 14-02-2005 02:10 PM

In article ,
Shawn wrote:
Where can I get KNO3 ? Is that availabe at a LFS ? I do weekly large water
changes - nearly the entire tank actually, leaving just enough for the fish
to keep swimming, before I refill. Then I treat with something called
"ALGAEFIX". This knocked the crap out the BGA (as well as making the rest
of my plants look quite poor), and I contined the treatment for several
weeks, as it said in the directions. But once I stopped, with another
couple weeks the BGA reappeared and gradually got worse again. I don't want
to have to maintain my tank forever on medicine and chemicals. I ran it for
the first 4 years without a single breakout.


Ah, ok, the algaefix killed off the firendly bacteria and your
tank is a now going through the algae succession that occurs with
new tank syndrome.

Change 80% of the water a day. On about the 4th day it should be almost
all gone. Keep doing it till it is.

Marcyn is overkill. Water changes alone will fix this, you don't need
more chemnicals. You were right ion figuring out algaefix would eradicate BA
though.

kno3 is potassium nitrate. blue green alage thrices in low nitrate
conditions. Hydroponics stores are the best source of this as nitrate
from a petshop fertilizer bottyle is stupid expensive.

Don't you just love that smell of blue gree n alage?

--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
http://www.mbz.org | Mercedes Mailing lists: http://lists.mbz.org
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | Killies, killi.net, Crypts, aquaria.net
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Old wris****ches http://watches.list.mbz.org

spiral_72 14-02-2005 03:36 PM

Hey, I am fighting with the same stuff. I had small patches at 30w of
light. Now that I run 150W I can hardly keep ahead of the stuff, I am
going to try to control phosphates first. I'll let you know haow that
turns out.

my aquarium page, info and pics at:
www.geocities.com/spiral_72/Spirals_page.html


steve 14-02-2005 05:18 PM


wrote:
Shawn you will never have good results at prevention/reoccurance
without using KNO3.


I took this advice and it has worked for me so far. I did the blackout
for 4 days in my large tank and I make sure to add a small amount of
KN03 weekly at water change time. I monitor the Nitrates and
Phosphates throughout the week and only add KNO3 when the measurable
nitrates are below 5ppm.

A 3 day blackout
50% water at the start and the end
Adding 1/4 teaspoon KN03 per 25 gal after each water change
Then adding 1/4 teaspoon at least 1-2x a week thereafter will prevent
BGA and other algae from ever bothering you.


This is sound advice, as I recommended above. However, I think Tom is
assumming we all have aquatic jungles with low fish loads when he
advises to add KNO3 twice weekly thereafter. Sure, it will ward off
BGA, but without sufficient plant growth you will suffer a green algae
breakout in my experience.

try ordering from Greg
www.gregwatson.com

Get:

2lbs or so KNO3
1 lb KH2PO4
1 lb Trace mix with Boron.


I took this advice also and over did it. Once again, I had what I felt
were alot of plants. Hey, it was more than I ever had! At the time I
had 5 $2.99 bunches of plants and some java fern in a 55g tank. When I
added KH2P04 and KNO3, in no time I had green algae covering every
surface in the tank. Nice furry hairy stuff. It took bleach dips and
massive water changes to clear it. Now, I closely monitor both
nitrates and P04 (phosphate) and only add KN03 and KH2P04 when
necessary. In fact, I haven't dosed with KH2P04 again. I've since
bought some KCI potassium and use that for my K dosing. Now my tank is
running fine. I've also added many more plants and I expect to be
seeing my nitrate levels diminish throughout the week. I haven't yet
though, because the fish food going in has not yet equaled the plant
usage.

http://www.geocities.com/erviservy/plantsFeb13.jpg


Just do this and do all of this advice and you will not have any BGA.
If you delete the KNO3, the BGA will simply come back.


Another data point: In my fry tank I had long term BGA that I finally
had to take care of. The clump of java moss in there was turning into
the blob; a great big slimy ball of gelatnus goo. I used the Emycin
antibiotic treatment to kill the BGA and now use a very small dose of
KNO3 to keep it away.


steve


Richard Sexton 14-02-2005 07:42 PM

In article . com,
steve wrote:

wrote:
Shawn you will never have good results at prevention/reoccurance
without using KNO3.


I took this advice and it has worked for me so far. I did the blackout
for 4 days in my large tank and I make sure to add a small amount of
KN03 weekly at water change time. I monitor the Nitrates and
Phosphates throughout the week and only add KNO3 when the measurable
nitrates are below 5ppm.

A 3 day blackout
50% water at the start and the end
Adding 1/4 teaspoon KN03 per 25 gal after each water change
Then adding 1/4 teaspoon at least 1-2x a week thereafter will prevent
BGA and other algae from ever bothering you.


This is sound advice, as I recommended above. However, I think Tom is
assumming we all have aquatic jungles with low fish loads when he
advises to add KNO3 twice weekly thereafter. Sure, it will ward off
BGA, but without sufficient plant growth you will suffer a green algae
breakout in my experience.


Keep in mind blue green algae (cyanobacteria) thrives in low nitrate
environments so you shouldn't see it in a tank with a lot of fish.

I don't bother withthe blackout, I want my plants to keep going. I
just changes lots of water.

This is, by the way the problem with using algicides such as peroxide or
algae fix to eradicate the bactraial alage (staghorn, bba, cyanobacteria)
whcih seems to be about the only kinds of alage this stuff kills - once
it's killed the algae you now have the problems that your beneficial
bacteria is gone and the rotting dead alage causes a larger
ammonia problkem than you'd otherwise think. Your crypts will love
you - mmmmmmmmm ammonia - but now you'll get the algae succession
you get with a new tank. So, after using algicide youreally need to
change massiuve amounts of water for a while IMO.


--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
http://www.mbz.org | Mercedes Mailing lists: http://lists.mbz.org
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | Killies, killi.net, Crypts, aquaria.net
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Old wris****ches http://watches.list.mbz.org

Richard Sexton 14-02-2005 07:47 PM

In article .com,
spiral_72 wrote:
Hey, I am fighting with the same stuff. I had small patches at 30w of
light. Now that I run 150W I can hardly keep ahead of the stuff, I am
going to try to control phosphates first. I'll let you know haow that
turns out.


If you eradicate all phosphates you'll have alage problems of a different
nature - green spot alage only thrives with low or no phosphates. You
want to keep a nominal phosphate level - plants absolutely need it and
if they run out they'll stop growing and only the algae will then use
the available light and remaining nbutrients.

Change a LOT of water, this will cause the alage to wesken and release
spores to try to stay alive. Change a lkot of wate the next day and you'll
get rid of most of it. Keep doing it and each day you'll have less and
you'll feel much happier about it. In a few days it'll be gone.

Blue green thrives when the plants used up all the nitrates. Just
don't run out of NO3 again and it won't come back.

--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
http://www.mbz.org | Mercedes Mailing lists: http://lists.mbz.org
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | Killies, killi.net, Crypts, aquaria.net
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Old wris****ches http://watches.list.mbz.org

Bill 15-02-2005 02:05 AM

"Shawn" Spaketh Thusly:

I can't take it any more. I simply cannot beat or keep up with the
blue-green algae outbreak I've had now for about 5 months.

....

Thanks about it. Any other thoughts/advice would be well appreciated.

I haven't seen any in any of my tanks for a while, but a few years ago I would
get it periodically. Now, I was fighting spots of it and not a whole tank, but
this cured mine for good:
1. Make sure your C02 levels don't fluctuate - keep it as steady as possible.
2. Never skip your water changes - ever (traveling out of state on business
caused me problems).
3. Hydrogen Peroxide - the 3% drugstore brand. 1/4 oz. (that's one quarter of
an ounce of the 3% type) in a 29G tank every two or three days. Apply with a
turkey baster (I got to keep it, my wife didn't want it back, now it's a
permanent part of my aquarium supplies) DIRECTLY on the worst spot. Do the
happy dance as you see it bubble and listen for the BGA screaming in pain :-)
You'll see results the next day. In a bigger tank you can do more, in a
smaller do less. I was very conservative - this amount didn't hurt any fish
and didn't even seem to hurt any bacteria - all my levels stayed the same.
I was able to totally clear out an infestation about the size of a fist in a
week.

I got all the above info here on r.a.f.p, but it was several (3 or 4) years
ago and I can't pin down the time frame close enough to find the thread. I
remember that one person had used at least twice as much as I did and more
often with only very minor problems, but I didn't want to take a chance so I
went very easy with it. If there's no fish in the tank you can use more.

Important: if conditions in the tank are right for it, it WILL come back. Find
and fix the underlying problem while you're clearing it out, or you'll just
have to do it again. And again.

Good luck. Sorry I can't locate the original thread, it had lots of details on
doses and other people's experiences. If you're patient you might be able to
google it up.


--
Bill H. [my "reply to" address is real]
www.necka.net
Molon Labe!

spiral_72 15-02-2005 04:14 PM

Hey, I think I just found out last night why I am growing so much BGA.
I stopped by the LFS on the way home from work and bought a phosphate
test kit. From what I have read it should be 0-1mg/L..... The test kit
measured 0-5mg/L....... clear to blue. Mine registered off the
scale..... It was a deep purple. Guess I need to take some steps to fix
that ASAP. I figure I can buy those phosphate absorbing pills or add A
LOT more plants...... or both.

What do y'all think?

my aquarium page, info and pics at:
www.geocities.com/spiral_72/Spirals_page.html


Bob Alston 15-02-2005 04:18 PM

spiral_72 wrote:
Hey, I think I just found out last night why I am growing so much BGA.
I stopped by the LFS on the way home from work and bought a phosphate
test kit. From what I have read it should be 0-1mg/L..... The test kit
measured 0-5mg/L....... clear to blue. Mine registered off the
scale..... It was a deep purple. Guess I need to take some steps to fix
that ASAP. I figure I can buy those phosphate absorbing pills or add A
LOT more plants...... or both.

What do y'all think?

my aquarium page, info and pics at:
www.geocities.com/spiral_72/Spirals_page.html

50% weekly water changes will help a lot.

Bob

Margolis 15-02-2005 05:35 PM

"Bob Alston" wrote in message
news:9poQd.13251$Zr.10304@okepread03...
50% weekly water changes will help a lot.

Bob



unless there is phosphate in the replacement water or the dechlorinator

spiral, check the phosphates in your tap water if that is what you use.
Also, do you use anything like neutral regulator or ph right, etc...?

--

Margolis
http://web.archive.org/web/200302152...qs/AGQ2FAQ.htm
http://www.unrealtower.org/faq





spiral_72 15-02-2005 06:39 PM

No actually I quit using pH 7.0 about 6 months ago. I saw a post about
phosphate buffers and sure enough.... the stuff was a phosphate buffer.
Currently I use NO chemicals at all and about 1 teaspoon of phosphate
free carbon (Black Diamond) in only one of the filters. I am doing a
30% water change with a vacuum every Saturday just to stay ahead of the
BGA while I try different things. I am going to test my tap (well)
water tonight, thank you. I have tried blackout... it works but only
temporarily. My problem is pretty advanced. In 3-4 days I have a good
covering, primarily on the right side of the tank. This is the side
with only two java ferns and the whisper filter. My plants are
primarily on the left. I would say my tank maintenence is pretty good
although I am still learning. I will NOT start the tank over. What will
I learn from that? It may very well be coming from my tap water....
that'll be great.

my aquarium page, info and pics at:
www.geocities.com/spiral_72/Spirals_page.html


Bob Alston 15-02-2005 06:41 PM

Margolis wrote:
"Bob Alston" wrote in message
news:9poQd.13251$Zr.10304@okepread03...

50% weekly water changes will help a lot.

Bob




unless there is phosphate in the replacement water or the dechlorinator

spiral, check the phosphates in your tap water if that is what you use.
Also, do you use anything like neutral regulator or ph right, etc...?

Agree it is possible. But in my experience more likely from the flake
food and overfeeding.

Bob

Richard Sexton 15-02-2005 06:59 PM

In article .com,
spiral_72 wrote:
Hey, I think I just found out last night why I am growing so much BGA.
I stopped by the LFS on the way home from work and bought a phosphate
test kit. From what I have read it should be 0-1mg/L..... The test kit
measured 0-5mg/L....... clear to blue. Mine registered off the
scale..... It was a deep purple. Guess I need to take some steps to fix
that ASAP. I figure I can buy those phosphate absorbing pills or add A
LOT more plants...... or both.

What do y'all think?


I think you havn't been changing water enough. The absorbing pillow will
take longer than you want to wait to work. Change 80% of the weater
till it's gone then doweekly 50% changes. Test your tapwatrer for
phosphatre.

What do you fed? (some foods are higher in PO4 than others)

Do you use carbon? (It can leech phosphate)


--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
http://www.mbz.org | Mercedes Mailing lists: http://lists.mbz.org
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | Killies, killi.net, Crypts, aquaria.net
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Old wris****ches http://watches.list.mbz.org

spiral_72 15-02-2005 08:41 PM

I feed TetraMin flakes for tropical fish and four sinking cat pellets
once a day about 7pm. Also about every week and a half I feed frozen
blood worms to replace the flake. I do use carbon, Black Diamond
(pakage says phosphate free)..... a very small amount (1 tsp) in one
filter bag replaced monthly.

my aquarium page, info and pics at:
www.geocities.com/spiral_72/Spirals_page.html


Elaine T 15-02-2005 11:34 PM

spiral_72 wrote:
I feed TetraMin flakes for tropical fish and four sinking cat pellets
once a day about 7pm. Also about every week and a half I feed frozen
blood worms to replace the flake. I do use carbon, Black Diamond
(pakage says phosphate free)..... a very small amount (1 tsp) in one
filter bag replaced monthly.

my aquarium page, info and pics at:
www.geocities.com/spiral_72/Spirals_page.html

To test for phosphates in your carbon, set up your phosphate test with
distilled or RO water and drop a few grains of carbon into it.
(Reefkeepers' trick). I believe you're right that Black Diamond does
actually test phosphate free but it can't hurt to try.

--
__ Elaine T __
__' http://eethomp.com/fish.html '__



Margolis 16-02-2005 01:32 PM

"Bob Alston" wrote in message
news:yvqQd.13255$Zr.12796@okepread03...
Agree it is possible. But in my experience more likely from the flake
food and overfeeding.




I can't see how overfeeding could get it to go off the scale. Even a whole
can of flake with a high phosphorous content wouldn't get it that high I
wouldn't think.

--

Margolis
http://web.archive.org/web/200302152...qs/AGQ2FAQ.htm
http://www.unrealtower.org/faq





spiral_72 16-02-2005 04:01 PM

I tested my tap water last night.... 0.25mg/L of phosphate
I wasn't real sure what to do. I cleaned the tank again last night. The
stuff is growing at a tremendous rate. It has attacked my java ferns,
driftwood, rock and gravel but for the most part it has left my Amazon
Swords alone. I can't get over it grows primarily on the right side. I
will test my carbon tonight. I use so little of it, I doubt that's it.
I really do clean quite well, so I doubt it is fish/food waste. I am
scared it will be my substrate. It doesn't really make any sense to
have an outbreak after a year of being setup though.

my aquarium page, info and pics at:
www.geocities.com/spiral_72/Spirals_page.html


spiral_72 16-02-2005 04:17 PM

Oh, I am running a blackout starting last night. With any luck I can
get regain some control of this thing.
What do you think? I read in a book (I think) that algae can only take
advantage of a long period of light, while plants can take some
advantage of several shorter periods. Any experience with that? Could I
run my lights for just two hours several times a day and cut down on
algae growth?

my aquarium page, info and pics at:
www.geocities.com/spiral_72/Spirals_page.html


[email protected] 20-02-2005 06:46 AM

Spiral,

Rather than going 5 different directions about algae, focus on the dang
plants!
Take care of their needs.

The PO4 issue could be the test kit, you are relying all the issue on
that, that has NOTHING to do with BGA or outbreaks of algae unless it's
too low.

Tell me, anyone, what is the difference between 2ppm of PO4 and say
5ppm of PO4 regarding algae, will one cause algae ansd the other will
not? I've dosed 1-2ppm of PO4 in my tanks for oh..........about 15
years ..........where is my algae?

I'll tell you, it's not there and PO4 excess does not cause algae in a
well planted tank.

Now poor CO2, lack of NO3, K, traces, GH, PO4 etc sure
will...................

It';s simply much easier and straight forward for a new person to focus
on the plant's needs.

I am over playing the notion of NOT using antibiotics because it's an
easy solution to a more complicated issue.

KNO3 is what the tank is lacking, not antibiotics.

Blackout and antiobiotics merely kill what's there, it does NOT solve
your issue.

Ask your self this: why do I have algae?
Poor plant growth.

When the plants are growing well, you have no algae.
So focus on the plants.

Any plant can handle a 3 day blackout, if you fail to add the KNO3
back, the BGa will come back in a few days, if you fail to add the KNO3
doing the antiobiotic, it'll come back in 1-2 months, perhaps longer if
you feed more etc or somehow start adding more Nitrogen.

The blackout allows you to repeat the KNO3 test and shows you rather
quickly that the lack of KNO3 encourages a BGA bloom. It would have
taken me years to figure that out using antibiotics.............so
pills don't teach you much either.

Stay healthy and you don't get sick and need pills/algae fix, Copper
etc, so keep your plants healthy.
Rather than the quick fix, look at the long term solution, then folks
can get back to talking about plants and not algae .........

This is much easier and actually deceptively simple.

Regards,
Tom Barr


Richard Sexton 20-02-2005 07:59 PM

In article .com,
wrote:
Tell me, anyone, what is the difference between 2ppm of PO4 and say
5ppm of PO4 regarding algae, will one cause algae ansd the other will
not? I've dosed 1-2ppm of PO4 in my tanks for oh..........about 15
years ..........where is my algae?


It's here in one of my tanks. Do you want me to mail it to you
or something?

*******.

--
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633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | Killies, killi.net, Crypts, aquaria.net
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[email protected] 21-02-2005 03:27 AM

Sure. Send it, I'll tell you the species too.
My pioint is really, if the algae likes excess, why don't we see it in
tank with obvious excess levels of NO3 and PO4, light, CO2, Fe/traces,
K+, Ca, Mg ??????

Surely excess is 2ppm of orthophosphate(DIP) which is the most
bioavailable form of PO4.
How is that different than say 5ppm?

How much is too much PO4?
I have no practical reason to dose more than 2ppm but I'd like to know
what range causes problems...
I really do not know of an upper limit. If you have some concrete data,
that would be interesting.

Regards,
Tom Barr


spiral_72 21-02-2005 06:59 PM

Well, as much as all that hurt my feelings...... You might have a
point. With the exception of my banana plant, my plant growth is slow
to almost stopped.

"How much is too much PO4?" I've not seen any concrete data either, but
since the test measures 0-5mg/L and assuming the manufacturer is the
expert (Hagen) I figgered 5 was way too much..... and about 2.5 was
acceptable (middle of the test range), while 0 or 2.5 was ideal. Is
that a ridiculous assumption? After all, what good is a gauge if it
reads something other than an ideal or expected quantity?

Just for the record I changed about 30% water in my 55g this weekend
with 0.25mg/L tap water. Before and after the water change, the test
measured purple (off the scale.) I soaked a handful of my carbon (new,
out of the can) in 16oz of clean tap water... The water was 0.25mg/L
PO4 before and after I mixed the carbon. I tested my peat (new) using
the same method.... no change in PO4 before and after. I broke off a
small piece of the substrate fertilizer I use.... No change.
Therefore, it appears PO4 is leeching from my substrate or I have
decaying fish waste laying everywhere (which I don't.) The way I figure
it, I can:
1.Sell everything, and give up.
2.Continue to clean the tank twice a week and hope things clear up.
3.Buy lots of plants and/or some PO4 "sponge" and wait.
4.Take Tom Barr's suggestion and:

dose (KNO3) Potassium Nitrate (How do you know mine is low?)

"Now poor CO2, lack of NO3, K, traces, GH, PO4 etc sure
will............."
(NO3) Nitrates is zero. With my low fish load. it's to be expected.
Lots of people run a very low fish load planted tank. You can't dose
Nitrates. Can you? Nitrates are generated by bacteria breaking
down.....forms of organic waste.
GH is 7d(125ppm) a little on the soft side.
PO4 is very high.... that's what I am concerned with
CO2 by calculation is about 8ppm. Not too bad right?.... a little low
(K) Potassium.... I have no idea.

So, not to start a fight...... What is wrong with this picture? I ask
questions to learn. The phosphates are the only thing I can find that
are out of the ordinary. I don't have a test kit for everything. That
would cost hundreds of dollars. While I agree that low plant growth
must be an indicator of something, I expect to run some extra CO2 and
they will flourish. No? Maybe not. Do I purchase some leaf fertilezer
with iron and all the trace elements and give that a shot? I think I am
going about finding a solution fairly methodically. I sure hope when
this is all finished, someone can search for BGA in Google and find
this trial with a solution.

my aquarium page, info and pics at:
www.geocities.com/spiral_72/Spirals_page.html


Nikki Casali 21-02-2005 08:10 PM



spiral_72 wrote:
dose (KNO3) Potassium Nitrate (How do you know mine is low?)


Use a nitrate, NO3, test kit.

KNO3 is a molecule composed of elements O, N and K. You knew that,
anyway, yes?

"Now poor CO2, lack of NO3, K, traces, GH, PO4 etc sure
will............."


NO3 is a constituent of KNO3, so is K.

(NO3) Nitrates is zero. With my low fish load. it's to be expected.


That's your problem. The plants can't use up any further P if N is zero,
hence your high PO4 or P. Your plants are craving for nitrogen!

Lots of people run a very low fish load planted tank. You can't dose
Nitrates. Can you? Nitrates are generated by bacteria breaking
down.....forms of organic waste.


What? Nitrates = NO3. Dosing KNO3 is dosing your tank with nitrates,
plus some potassium. I don't think the plants really care about its source.

Nikki


Pete 22-02-2005 03:33 AM

"spiral_72" wrote in news:1109008752.449041.270760
@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

Well, as much as all that hurt my feelings...... You might have a
point. With the exception of my banana plant, my plant growth is slow
to almost stopped.

.......

"Now poor CO2, lack of NO3, K, traces, GH, PO4 etc sure
will............."
(NO3) Nitrates is zero. With my low fish load. it's to be expected.
Lots of people run a very low fish load planted tank. You can't dose
Nitrates. Can you? Nitrates are generated by bacteria breaking
down.....forms of organic waste.
GH is 7d(125ppm) a little on the soft side.
PO4 is very high.... that's what I am concerned with
CO2 by calculation is about 8ppm. Not too bad right?.... a little low
(K) Potassium.... I have no idea.


Hey spiral, just a quick note a fellow aquarist who had a similar
problem... Tom's is the way go to.
I've been down the limiting ferts route, especially phosphates, and it
never really worked and if it did work the plants didn't do well. Now I
actually still have little visable traces of algae around in my tank, so I
know I'm not clean and it could grow, but it just doesn't. It still took
me a little tweaking of using lots of fert and CO2 to get it working. I
have a larger than usual for a fully planted tank (at least compaired to
the pics you see on the web) so I personally use less NO3 and I vacuum my
gravel whenever I move plants from that spot. The nice thing is while you
are working on getting the balance right, even if you have algae at least
your plants are going gangbusters and that's encouraging.... that PO4 will
probably get sucked up by the plants (it's just amazing) and just disappear
unless you got a real hard PO4 source in your gravel.

I'll let Tom do the work and give you the details but I'll tell you right
now that CO2 is way way low. I'm around upper 20s to 30ppm CO2. There's a
note on most charts saying above 20 is bad but I haven't seen a hint of a
problem.

Luck, don't give up ;)
Pete.

PS. if that banana plant is anything like mine, once you get your tank
really running it will take over. It turned into one of those giant ferns
people use in the corned of their office.. it's massive.

spiral_72 22-02-2005 02:29 PM

Um, I didn't know plants could use KNO3 for nitrate. Duh...... I've
just made a note of that.
Well Tom. It looks like you might be "the man" and I need to get the
CO2 Bomb running or a yeast-CO2 generator for temporary. Looks lke I
need to dose some for of nitrates too. I figure theoretically I COULD
add lots of fish for the nitrate, I think I'll do the dosing for right
now.

Man, the fish are easy to keep compared to these plants! On the other
hand, what am I doing? I saw a place on the net selling BGA. Imagine
that! I could have a regular farm here.
Thanks for all the help, really.
my aquarium page, info and pics at:
www.geocities.com/spiral_72/Spirals_page.html


steve 22-02-2005 06:38 PM


spiral_72 wrote:
Um, I didn't know plants could use KNO3 for nitrate. Duh...... I've
just made a note of that.
Well Tom. It looks like you might be "the man" and I need to get the
CO2 Bomb running or a yeast-CO2 generator for temporary. Looks lke I
need to dose some for of nitrates too. I figure theoretically I COULD
add lots of fish for the nitrate, I think I'll do the dosing for

right
now.



Well Spiral, Let me tell you a little story about a boy and his fish.
You see, in the beginning, there was a boy who wanted to keep fish in a
square tank made of glass. He kept fish in the water, everyone was
happy. Some fish lived longer than others, some were lucky enough to
die of old age instead of cats, broken heaters, broken tanks, chlorine
poisining and other man made ailments.

Then one day the man realized he wasn't a boy any longer, yet he still
wanted to keep fish in glass tanks, but he had alot more money and he
could keep more fish in more water. These fish too, like their
ancestors, lived pretty much happy lives and some lived a long time.

Now the man, wanting to broaden his horizon and venture into new
aquatic worlds, tried keeping plants alive under water. "Heck, dahlias
are easy enough to grow outdoors in a totally uncontrolled environment,
it should be easy to keep aquatic weeds in water!"

http://Aquaria.Info/members/ervis/

The above site doesn't go into much detail on the real learning
adventure involved. Tom helped me a great deal. He also led me down
the primrose path to madness at the same time. :) I was about where
you are at now, when I started dumping in the ferts. Holy crap! Can
you ever grow algae with lots of light and nutrients! What I was
lacking was enough plants, lots of plants. Thick healthy plants. Only
when I'd covered the bottom of my tank with plants and plant bunches
did I see the algae finally take a backseat.

From what you've learned so far, you're on the right track. Here's

what I learned in short form.

Kill BGA with a blackout.
Dose KNO3 using the fert calculator on chucks aquarium pages.
http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/46g.htm
Measure your Nitrates and Phosphate if you have those kits, and dose
accordingly.
With your zillion watt lights, you're going to have to have additional
C02. If you aren't adding any artifically, then your level is between
2 and 3 ppm. See the C02 calculator chart on Chucks Aquarium pages.
http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/46g.htm
With C02, measurable levels of NPK in the ratio of 8:1:16, you'll be
amazed at how fast the plants grow and even more amazed to see the
remaining algae just sit there, sad, uneven to spread beyond the little
rock you've left it on.

steve


spiral_72 22-02-2005 09:22 PM

My LFS guy said to use Sierra (SP?)flakes instead of TetraMin and
discontinue my sinking pellets for the Corys. He thinks the TetraMin
flakes are high in animal content and my little fish can't do anything
with the sinking pellets, thus they just dissolve into the gravel. I
thought that's what they were supposed to do actually. I thought the
cats picked up all the little pieces, but apparently not. With all that
stuff decaying, that would account for some of the phosphate. I just
can't believe I don't vacuum enough if that is the case. Any thoughts
on this?
I am trying to find a local supplier or KNO3 too.

Oh, Steve. Ya gotta pretty nice tank! Nice job.

my aquarium page, info and pics at:
www.geocities.com/spiral_72/Spirals_page.html


Elaine T 22-02-2005 09:34 PM

spiral_72 wrote:
My LFS guy said to use Sierra (SP?)flakes instead of TetraMin and
discontinue my sinking pellets for the Corys. He thinks the TetraMin
flakes are high in animal content and my little fish can't do anything
with the sinking pellets, thus they just dissolve into the gravel. I
thought that's what they were supposed to do actually. I thought the
cats picked up all the little pieces, but apparently not. With all that
stuff decaying, that would account for some of the phosphate. I just
can't believe I don't vacuum enough if that is the case. Any thoughts
on this?
I am trying to find a local supplier or KNO3 too.

Oh, Steve. Ya gotta pretty nice tank! Nice job.

my aquarium page, info and pics at:
www.geocities.com/spiral_72/Spirals_page.html

I've never heard of that brand of fish food. I've always had fish do
well on TetraMin but if you want to change foods, how about one of the
Hagen NutraFin series? They're formulated to be low in phosphate.

As for sinking pellets, Hikari makes a sinking wafer that doesn't
dissolve into mush in the gravel the way the Tetra one does.

--
__ Elaine T __
__' http://eethomp.com/fish.html '__


spiral_72 22-02-2005 10:41 PM

I seem to be having a tough time finding local KNO3. It usually goes
something like this:
Sto Hello?
Me: Yea, I have a real quick question, do you sell potassium nitrate?
Sto
Sto
Me: Hello?
Sto Um
Me: Y'know? It's used in plant fertilization.
Sto Um, I dunno.
Me: Ok, I guess not. Thank-you. click

my aquarium page, info and pics at:
www.geocities.com/spiral_72/Spirals_page.html


steve 22-02-2005 11:03 PM


spiral_72 wrote:
I seem to be having a tough time finding local KNO3. It usually goes
something like this:


Try calling garden shops, nursury's or hydroponic stores. Also, some
old fashioned hardware stores, maybe Ace hardware, will carry stump
remover. A few brands of stump remover are pure Potassium Nitrate.

steve

Or, if you can wait, order from Greg Watson dot com.


Nikki Casali 22-02-2005 11:13 PM


spiral_72 wrote:

I seem to be having a tough time finding local KNO3. It usually goes
something like this:
Sto Hello?
Me: Yea, I have a real quick question, do you sell potassium nitrate?
Sto
Sto
Me: Hello?
Sto Um
Me: Y'know? It's used in plant fertilization.
Sto Um, I dunno.
Me: Ok, I guess not. Thank-you. click


http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_nitrate.htm


Pete 23-02-2005 02:17 AM

1 Attachment(s)
On 22 Feb 2005, you wrote in rec.aquaria.freshwater.plants:

I seem to be having a tough time finding local KNO3. It usually goes
something like this:
Sto Hello?
Me: Yea, I have a real quick question, do you sell potassium nitrate?
Sto
Sto
Me: Hello?
Sto Um
Me: Y'know? It's used in plant fertilization.
Sto Um, I dunno.
Me: Ok, I guess not. Thank-you. click

my aquarium page, info and pics at:
www.geocities.com/spiral_72/Spirals_page.html


Might take some hunting around especially in the US, as potassium nitrate
is an explosive component and hydroponic stores have also been hit due to
people growing herbs instead of tomatoes. Had a few people in Canada
(Vancouver mainly) being raided because police wrote down their car licence
plate when they visited a hydropinic store buying MH bulbs and ferts, and
then later raiding their house. But if you have any hydroponic stores in
your area they will have it.

Well you need to get that CO2 way up before dosing all your ferts anyway
and fully stock your tank with plants. I'm attaching a crummy pic (cheap
camera and tank still in process of growing in, but took it as my tiger
lotus was flowering :P ) to show what full density is. BTW the stuff on the
top (you can see the roots hanging) is called water lettuce in laymans term
and is great for sucking up extra nutrients.

For an idea of DIY CO2 to get proper CO2 levels. I have two 4L plastic
containers that feed into the intake of my canister filter. I recharge one
bottle a week and have them offset (one changed on the weekend, one mid
week). The solution is two cups of sugar and 1tsp of baking yeast. It
takes that much to keep my 87Gal planted tank with enough CO2. Biggest
problem people have with DIY is they don't go big enough and thus don't get
enough CO2. BTW measure CO2 at the END of the day, just when the lights go
off.

Cheers
Pete.

Hope the pic attaches, never tried it before with this news reader.




Elaine T 23-02-2005 08:04 AM

spiral_72 wrote:
I seem to be having a tough time finding local KNO3. It usually goes
something like this:
Sto Hello?
Me: Yea, I have a real quick question, do you sell potassium nitrate?
Sto
Sto
Me: Hello?
Sto Um
Me: Y'know? It's used in plant fertilization.
Sto Um, I dunno.
Me: Ok, I guess not. Thank-you. click

my aquarium page, info and pics at:
www.geocities.com/spiral_72/Spirals_page.html

Oh, geez. LOL! KNO3 is a bomb and gunpowder ingredient! Not as bad as
ammonium nitrate, but could still give people pause.

--
__ Elaine T __
__' http://eethomp.com/fish.html '__


Bill 24-02-2005 01:56 AM

Elaine T Spaketh Thusly:

spiral_72 wrote:
I seem to be having a tough time finding local KNO3. It usually goes
something like this:
Sto Hello?
Me: Yea, I have a real quick question, do you sell potassium nitrate?
Sto
Sto
Me: Hello?
Sto Um
Me: Y'know? It's used in plant fertilization.
Sto Um, I dunno.
Me: Ok, I guess not. Thank-you. click

my aquarium page, info and pics at:
www.geocities.com/spiral_72/Spirals_page.html

Oh, geez. LOL! KNO3 is a bomb and gunpowder ingredient! Not as bad as
ammonium nitrate, but could still give people pause.

It's also the only ingredient in Green Light brand stump remover. Usually can
be found at Ace hardware or Walmart. I got a lifetime supply (1 lb.) for 5.49
a few years ago.

Mix it 50/50 with sugar and it burns real nice, in case you want to get rid of
that stump real fast :-)

--
Bill H. [my "reply to" address is real]
www.necka.net
Molon Labe!


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