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Old 16-02-2005, 06:35 PM
Troy Bruder
 
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Default Onyx Sand vs. Eco-Complete?

Hello,

I considering re-doing my planted tank.. This time, I want to use TRUE
planted tank substrate.. I really like the look of a "sand-ish" substrate,
but also want something that's going to reduce the amount of fertilizers I
need to add on a regular basis.

Any thoughts on Onyx Sand vs. Eco-Complete?

Thanks,
Troy



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Old 16-02-2005, 11:43 PM
Richard Sexton
 
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Default

In article ,
Troy Bruder wrote:
Hello,

I considering re-doing my planted tank.. This time, I want to use TRUE
planted tank substrate.. I really like the look of a "sand-ish" substrate,
but also want something that's going to reduce the amount of fertilizers I
need to add on a regular basis.


I'm really starting to wonder if all these fancy gravels are ore
of a fashio statement than actually usefull. I mean I've used
fine beach sand for years which any manner of idiots tell me
will not work and can never work.

Yeah, ok, then explain this:

http://images.aquaria.net/plants/Cryptocoryne/g/GRA/
http://images.aquaria.net/plants/Cryptocoryne/u/UND/

All grown in sand. For 10-15 years.

Now I've got and tried Flourite, profile, farfards aquatic
soil and so on and so forth. Given the price of this stuff
(especialy flourite) and the fact that plants can take
100% of their requirtements from the water column I
really do wonder why we need fancy gravel.

You want sand? Use sand. $4 for 50 pounds at home depot
("Playbox sand"). If my plants in fluoprite start doing better
than the one sin sand I'll let you know.


--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
http://www.mbz.org | Mercedes Mailing lists: http://lists.mbz.org
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | Killies, killi.net, Crypts, aquaria.net
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Old wris****ches http://watches.list.mbz.org
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Old 17-02-2005, 02:41 AM
Shagster
 
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Thanks for the feedback.. I've been using standard old "aquarium gravel"
for 2 years... Plants are growing like crazy... But I'm adding chemicals
like a mad scientist... I was hoping these newfangled gravels would simply
provide a continuous supply of nutrients for a longer period of time...

Troy

"Richard Sexton" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Troy Bruder wrote:
Hello,

I considering re-doing my planted tank.. This time, I want to use TRUE
planted tank substrate.. I really like the look of a "sand-ish"
substrate,
but also want something that's going to reduce the amount of fertilizers I
need to add on a regular basis.


I'm really starting to wonder if all these fancy gravels are ore
of a fashio statement than actually usefull. I mean I've used
fine beach sand for years which any manner of idiots tell me
will not work and can never work.

Yeah, ok, then explain this:

http://images.aquaria.net/plants/Cryptocoryne/g/GRA/
http://images.aquaria.net/plants/Cryptocoryne/u/UND/

All grown in sand. For 10-15 years.

Now I've got and tried Flourite, profile, farfards aquatic
soil and so on and so forth. Given the price of this stuff
(especialy flourite) and the fact that plants can take
100% of their requirtements from the water column I
really do wonder why we need fancy gravel.

You want sand? Use sand. $4 for 50 pounds at home depot
("Playbox sand"). If my plants in fluoprite start doing better
than the one sin sand I'll let you know.


--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
http://www.mbz.org | Mercedes Mailing lists: http://lists.mbz.org
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | Killies, killi.net, Crypts, aquaria.net
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Old wris****ches http://watches.list.mbz.org



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Old 17-02-2005, 03:18 AM
 
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Default

No, they will not, ever solve that issue with respect to macro
nutrients, NPK, GH etc.
They can supply the traces to some degree in lower light tanks and
higher light tanks to a lesser degree.

There is a noticable improvement of flourite, EC, Onynx sand vs plain
sand.
But you can do well with either, just make sure you taske care of the
water column and things will go well.

Some will say you can add fert balls to the substrate but you forget,
plants show preference for the water column given a chocie between
substrate of water column in a number of controlled test.

That is also my observations for many years using both sand and water
column dosing methods without any sub strate fertilization and also the
reversed, nothing but substrate fertilization.

Onyx sand is worth it for me, it's a one time expense, certainly not
needed though.

Regards,
Tom Barr

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Old 17-02-2005, 03:19 AM
Richard Sexton
 
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Default

In article , Shagster wrote:
Thanks for the feedback.. I've been using standard old "aquarium gravel"
for 2 years... Plants are growing like crazy... But I'm adding chemicals
like a mad scientist... I was hoping these newfangled gravels would simply
provide a continuous supply of nutrients for a longer period of time...


Nah. The clay bases ones do that ion exchange thing aned convert ammonia to
nitrates faster or some damn thing and are supposed to be higher in iron
but my plants still go chloritic in flourite if I don't dose Fe+traces.

If what you have works, stick with it,and resign yourself that
this is just a chemistry set with moving parts.

--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
http://www.mbz.org | Mercedes Mailing lists: http://lists.mbz.org
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | Killies, killi.net, Crypts, aquaria.net
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Old wris****ches http://watches.list.mbz.org


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Old 17-02-2005, 03:22 AM
Richard Sexton
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article .com,
wrote:
Some will say you can add fert balls to the substrate but you forget,
plants show preference for the water column given a chocie between
substrate of water column in a number of controlled test.


Yeah, I had some crypts stuck in a tank I'd forgot about. Tank
was bare - no gravel and these five crypts just sat there for
three months with a lead weight wrapped arond them. They grew
like crazy. I had a real hard time tearing them apart.

--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
http://www.mbz.org | Mercedes Mailing lists: http://lists.mbz.org
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | Killies, killi.net, Crypts, aquaria.net
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Old wris****ches http://watches.list.mbz.org
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Old 17-02-2005, 12:33 PM
Margolis
 
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Default

Is onynx sand glass? will it harm things like cory's or "earth eaters" like
some of the black "glass" sands will?

--

Margolis
http://web.archive.org/web/200302152...qs/AGQ2FAQ.htm
http://www.unrealtower.org/faq




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Old 17-02-2005, 12:56 PM
sophie
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In message , Richard Sexton
writes
In article ,
Troy Bruder wrote:
Hello,

I considering re-doing my planted tank.. This time, I want to use TRUE
planted tank substrate.. I really like the look of a "sand-ish" substrate,
but also want something that's going to reduce the amount of fertilizers I
need to add on a regular basis.


I'm really starting to wonder if all these fancy gravels are ore
of a fashio statement than actually usefull. I mean I've used
fine beach sand for years which any manner of idiots tell me
will not work and can never work.

Yeah, ok, then explain this:

http://images.aquaria.net/plants/Cryptocoryne/g/GRA/


psssssttt.
It's "Shirley Aquatics" - Shrilly is a place (just round the corner form
me) ;-)

http://www.shirleyaquatics.co.uk/

--
sophie
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Old 17-02-2005, 02:19 PM
sophie
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In message , sophie
writes
In message , Richard Sexton
writes
In article ,
Troy Bruder wrote:
Hello,

I considering re-doing my planted tank.. This time, I want to use TRUE
planted tank substrate.. I really like the look of a "sand-ish" substrate,
but also want something that's going to reduce the amount of fertilizers I
need to add on a regular basis.


I'm really starting to wonder if all these fancy gravels are ore
of a fashio statement than actually usefull. I mean I've used
fine beach sand for years which any manner of idiots tell me
will not work and can never work.

Yeah, ok, then explain this:

http://images.aquaria.net/plants/Cryptocoryne/g/GRA/


psssssttt.
It's "Shirley Aquatics" - Shrilly


"Shirley", dammit, not shrilly.

is a place (just round the corner form me) ;-)

http://www.shirleyaquatics.co.uk/


--
sophie
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Old 17-02-2005, 02:20 PM
Ozdude
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Richard Sexton" wrote in message
...
Yeah, ok, then explain this:

http://images.aquaria.net/plants/Cryptocoryne/g/GRA/
http://images.aquaria.net/plants/Cryptocoryne/u/UND/

All grown in sand. For 10-15 years.

Now I've got and tried Flourite, profile, farfards aquatic
soil and so on and so forth. Given the price of this stuff
(especialy flourite) and the fact that plants can take
100% of their requirtements from the water column I
really do wonder why we need fancy gravel.

You want sand? Use sand. $4 for 50 pounds at home depot
("Playbox sand"). If my plants in fluoprite start doing better
than the one sin sand I'll let you know.


I agree about sand, but I really think it's not as simple as "do or don't
use sand" - ymmv is all I have to say.

I see plants like Val. and Hygro. planted in really fine sand at LFS#1 and
they have nothing like CO2 injection or anything, except there are macro
fertilizer tabs in the sand.

I think the argument for and against sand is the aerobic/anaerobic argument
for the root health, but once again it's dependent on so many things all I
can say is "different strokes for different folks" (ymmv)

When I ponder the advice for aquaria I always find myself visiting the local
park lake and looking closely at the submerged plants and what they are
growing so well in - it's usually silt, so fine it would instantly cloud any
aquarium - but the lesson there is that fertilization seems to be more
important to root health than substrate particle size and whether it's
aerobic or not.

I've read a lot of articles lately which are giving the view that it's the
micro-hair roots that do the uptaking and the visible roots doing the
anchoring and some uptake, so I am starting to form the view that as long as
the micro roots hairs can penetrate the substrate and reach sufficient
fertilizer, you are going to have growth success.

Oz

--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith




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Old 17-02-2005, 02:24 PM
Ozdude
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Richard Sexton" wrote in message
...
In article .com,
wrote:
Some will say you can add fert balls to the substrate but you forget,
plants show preference for the water column given a chocie between
substrate of water column in a number of controlled test.


Yeah, I had some crypts stuck in a tank I'd forgot about. Tank
was bare - no gravel and these five crypts just sat there for
three months with a lead weight wrapped arond them. They grew
like crazy. I had a real hard time tearing them apart.


Doesn't that prove Tom's point about water column fertilization in
preference to substrate fertilization?

Each plant type is different though. I've seen Banana Lilies growing in
leaps and bounds just floating around, yet mine go beserk in the substrate.

Oz



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Old 17-02-2005, 03:42 PM
Richard Sexton
 
Posts: n/a
Default

http://images.aquaria.net/plants/Cryptocoryne/g/GRA/

psssssttt.
It's "Shirley Aquatics" - Shrilly is a place (just round the corner form
me) ;-)


Shirley is a place and not a woman then? It didn't sound like one
of those weird English names like "Stoke on Ferrert".

--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
http://www.mbz.org | Mercedes Mailing lists: http://lists.mbz.org
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | Killies, killi.net, Crypts, aquaria.net
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Old wris****ches http://watches.list.mbz.org
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Old 17-02-2005, 03:46 PM
Richard Sexton
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article ,
Ozdude wrote:

"Richard Sexton" wrote in message
...
Yeah, ok, then explain this:

http://images.aquaria.net/plants/Cryptocoryne/g/GRA/
http://images.aquaria.net/plants/Cryptocoryne/u/UND/

All grown in sand. For 10-15 years.

Now I've got and tried Flourite, profile, farfards aquatic
soil and so on and so forth. Given the price of this stuff
(especialy flourite) and the fact that plants can take
100% of their requirtements from the water column I
really do wonder why we need fancy gravel.

You want sand? Use sand. $4 for 50 pounds at home depot
("Playbox sand"). If my plants in fluoprite start doing better
than the one sin sand I'll let you know.


I agree about sand, but I really think it's not as simple as "do or don't
use sand" - ymmv is all I have to say.

I see plants like Val. and Hygro. planted in really fine sand at LFS#1 and
they have nothing like CO2 injection or anything, except there are macro
fertilizer tabs in the sand.


I had tothrow away my val and hygro in that tank as they were tasking over. One
red marble val was 4' long. No fertilizer other than fish, no co2, one 20W
tube over aq 30 gal tank.

I think the argument for and against sand is the aerobic/anaerobic argument
for the root health, but once again it's dependent on so many things all I
can say is "different strokes for different folks" (ymmv)


I put manure under the sand when I set it up in 1996. It goes black for a bit
near the bottom then clears up. The anaerbic state causesiron to be reduced
to a usable state.

--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
http://www.mbz.org | Mercedes Mailing lists: http://lists.mbz.org
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | Killies, killi.net, Crypts, aquaria.net
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Old wris****ches http://watches.list.mbz.org
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Old 17-02-2005, 05:18 PM
sophie
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In message , Richard Sexton
writes
http://images.aquaria.net/plants/Cryptocoryne/g/GRA/


psssssttt.
It's "Shirley Aquatics" - Shrilly is a place (just round the corner form
me) ;-)


Shirley is a place and not a woman then? It didn't sound like one
of those weird English names like "Stoke on Ferrert".


Piddle-on-Trent...
But yes, Shirley is a place - not so far from a place called, I kid you
not, "Pink Green".


--
sophie
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Old 17-02-2005, 05:51 PM
Richard Sexton
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Shirley is a place and not a woman then? It didn't sound like one
of those weird English names like "Stoke on Ferrert".


Piddle-on-Trent...


I've never piddled in the Trent, but as a young lad, the Thames
is a different story. Although there is a Trent river here and uh...

But yes, Shirley is a place - not so far from a place called, I kid you
not, "Pink Green".


Hey we have a "Red Green" here in Canadia.

--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
http://www.mbz.org | Mercedes Mailing lists: http://lists.mbz.org
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | Killies, killi.net, Crypts, aquaria.net
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Old wris****ches http://watches.list.mbz.org


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