I said Rhododendrons not Rhododentrons!!!!

Rhody breeders should try to incorporate such a species salt tolerance into
the hybrids.

http://www.fs.fed.us/database/feis/plants/shrub/rhomac/

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...oog le+Search

http://images.google.com/images?q=Rh...ff&sa=N&tab=wi



"Charles" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 24 Jul 2005 20:06:06 GMT, "Cereus-validus......."
wrote:

That's why you never find any Rhododendrons growing wild along the
beaches.

Take a trip to the Oregon coast sometime. Rhododentrons (R.
macrophylum) grows to about 40 feet tall along the caost, in the sand
with a lot of salt spray, and a lot of rain.

The message
from Stephen Henning contains these words:

Janet Baraclough wrote:

contains these words:
Ericacious plants are not salt tolerant at all. Azaleas are in that
group.

Well, that just ain't so. Much of west Scotland is acid peaty soil,
lashed by salty rain and salt-laden wind. Some of the commonest
naturalised plants are ericaceous. Heather and rhododendron ponticum
both thrive right down to the (salt)water edge here. Pieris, and
deciduous and evergreen azaleas do very well, and it's common for very
wind (and salt) swept gardens to have huge old deciduous azaleas as a
windbreak on the sea side. West Scotland's salt-laden coast is famous
for its rhododendron gardens .

I spent most of the month of May visiting Scotland's famous rhododendron
and azalea gardens and none grew rhododendrons nor azaleas near the open
sea or near the beaches.

Garbage. If you were ever here, you never looked at a map.


The rhododendron and azalea gardens I visited
we

Royal Botanic Garden of Edinburgh (not near the sea)

I suggest you look at the atlas. Edinburgh is a SEAPORT.

Inverewe Gardens (NT) (on Loch Ewe, a sal****er estuary, but the
rhododendrons and azaleas are either grown in walled gardens or on high
ground. In their official brochure they describe the "curse of the salt
spray")

Lochewe is a seabay, a fjiord. Open to the Atlantic Ocean. Look at
that atlas again. Few if any of the rhodos there are in the sun-facing
walled garden which was built for herbaceous and vegetable gardening.

Arduaine Gardens (NT), Inveraray (on a high slope overlooking the Sound
of Jura.)

Arduaine is at sea level on the west coast, NOT at Inveraray.

Benmore Gardens (RBG), Benmore (a woodland setting not near the sea)

Where do you GET this garbage?????? Benmore is in a woodland setting
at Dunoon on the Holy Loch; where the US Navy used to keep its
submarines.

Crarae Gardens (NT), Inveraray (on the Crarae Burn (a fresh water creek)
not near the sea)

Crarae (I work there too) is right on Loch Fyne, another sea
inlet/fjiord. The freshwater burn through the garden runs into the sea.

Brodick Castle & Gardens, Isle of Arran (on an island on the Firth of
Clyde, but it is situated high not near the sea)

This is hilarious. I live on Arran in Brodick, I work in Brodick
Castle Gardens.The castle is 100 ft above SEAlevel, and less than 100
m from the water. The rhododendrons and azaleas are between the castle
and the sea. As I type I am looking across the SEA bay to Brodick
Castle and its gardens which run right down to the SEAwater. Many of the
most important rhodos in the garden grow (and self-seed) in the section
called "Plant hunter's walk", which is right down at sea level maybe 10
m from the water.

Not many Scots consider ponticum a garden plant.

Haven't said they do. Rp is a naturalised and highly invasive weed
throughout west Scotland, right down to the sea edge. (The gardens you
list grow far more than ponticum of course.). Yellow azalea is also a
naturalised weed in many west coastal areas, which is why I mentioned
it.

The Scots have done
considerable research on the resistance of plants to the salt spray and
to limestone. They have found plants which can tolerate these notorious
enemies of rhododendrons and azaleas.

The rhododendron gardens of the west coast of Scotland are all on
acid soils, not limestone. Rhododendrons, because of their resistance
to salt, are often used as wind-shelter belts in the coastal gardens you
mention.

Janet

Isle of Arran, west coast of Scotland.

In article , Janet Baraclough
wrote:

The message
from Stephen Henning contains these words:

Janet Baraclough wrote:

contains these words:
Ericacious plants are not salt tolerant at all. Azaleas are in that
group.

Well, that just ain't so. Much of west Scotland is acid peaty soil,
lashed by salty rain and salt-laden wind. Some of the commonest
naturalised plants are ericaceous. Heather and rhododendron ponticum
both thrive right down to the (salt)water edge here. Pieris, and
deciduous and evergreen azaleas do very well, and it's common for very
wind (and salt) swept gardens to have huge old deciduous azaleas as a
windbreak on the sea side. West Scotland's salt-laden coast is famous
for its rhododendron gardens .

I spent most of the month of May visiting Scotland's famous rhododendron
and azalea gardens and none grew rhododendrons nor azaleas near the open
sea or near the beaches.

Garbage. If you were ever here, you never looked at a map.


The rhododendron and azalea gardens I visited
we

Royal Botanic Garden of Edinburgh (not near the sea)

I suggest you look at the atlas. Edinburgh is a SEAPORT.

Inverewe Gardens (NT) (on Loch Ewe, a sal****er estuary, but the
rhododendrons and azaleas are either grown in walled gardens or on high
ground. In their official brochure they describe the "curse of the salt
spray")

Lochewe is a seabay, a fjiord. Open to the Atlantic Ocean. Look at
that atlas again. Few if any of the rhodos there are in the sun-facing
walled garden which was built for herbaceous and vegetable gardening.

Arduaine Gardens (NT), Inveraray (on a high slope overlooking the Sound
of Jura.)

Arduaine is at sea level on the west coast, NOT at Inveraray.

Benmore Gardens (RBG), Benmore (a woodland setting not near the sea)

Where do you GET this garbage?????? Benmore is in a woodland setting
at Dunoon on the Holy Loch; where the US Navy used to keep its
submarines.

Crarae Gardens (NT), Inveraray (on the Crarae Burn (a fresh water creek)
not near the sea)

Crarae (I work there too) is right on Loch Fyne, another sea
inlet/fjiord. The freshwater burn through the garden runs into the sea.

Brodick Castle & Gardens, Isle of Arran (on an island on the Firth of
Clyde, but it is situated high not near the sea)

This is hilarious. I live on Arran in Brodick, I work in Brodick
Castle Gardens.The castle is 100 ft above SEAlevel, and less than 100
m from the water. The rhododendrons and azaleas are between the castle
and the sea. As I type I am looking across the SEA bay to Brodick
Castle and its gardens which run right down to the SEAwater. Many of the
most important rhodos in the garden grow (and self-seed) in the section
called "Plant hunter's walk", which is right down at sea level maybe 10
m from the water.

Not many Scots consider ponticum a garden plant.

Haven't said they do. Rp is a naturalised and highly invasive weed
throughout west Scotland, right down to the sea edge. (The gardens you
list grow far more than ponticum of course.). Yellow azalea is also a
naturalised weed in many west coastal areas, which is why I mentioned
it.

The Scots have done
considerable research on the resistance of plants to the salt spray and
to limestone. They have found plants which can tolerate these notorious
enemies of rhododendrons and azaleas.

The rhododendron gardens of the west coast of Scotland are all on
acid soils, not limestone. Rhododendrons, because of their resistance
to salt, are often used as wind-shelter belts in the coastal gardens you
mention.

Janet

Isle of Arran, west coast of Scotland.

It seems a bit tawdry for a decent soul like yourself to be telling
Stephen you doubt he's been to Scotland when he certainly has been or
wouldn't've said he had -- he's well enough known in the rhody community
that if he started telling whoppers like you're presuming, a whole lot of
people would know. He is a good reporter on rhododendrons; I'd turn to him
in an instant for any rhody puzzle or problem I was having; his knowledge
is worthy of respect.

The effect of salt on 95% of rhody & azalea varieties is not rare
information from some loon pretending to have been to Scotland as you seem
to be imagining. Whereas, if what you have posited were true, then all
unlikely things are likewise true & the moon really is made of cheese.
What Stephen asserts is that none of these gardens grow rhodies or azaleas
near the open sea or on beaches. That's not the same as claiming the sea
can't be seen from anywhere from any high hilltop, which seems to be your
gambit for denying the reality that the genus rhododendron is simply &
factually extremely salt sensitive.

I'll assume you're mistaking hilltops in view of the sea for saltmarshes
or beeches, as I refuse to believe you'd lie outright. Stephen's quote
from the Inverewe Garden brochure about their troubles with the "curse of
the salt spray" still stands as Inverewe's own testimony on that topic. In
fact the methods by which Inverewe gardens protect rhodies from salt air
are famous & imitated by large scale landscapers. Stephen never said
Inverewe was not near sal****er; he said correctly that the garden admits
to having problems due to this location, & his statements are not rendered
incorrect by you misrepresenting what he said.

Unless you're speaking of R. pontus exclusively, these shrubs cannot be
used as windbreaks against salt winds as you posit, indeed the opposite of
what you describe was done by Osgood Mackenzie at Inverewe. He built
walled terraces to protect against sea winds, & planted Pinus scandinavius
specifically as windbreaks to protect the Inverewe rhododendron
collection from salt winds.

And you can't possibly believe Benmore Botanical Gardens' woodland rhodies
are growing in a salt environment. Their rhody collection occurs mainly in
two parts of the park by their own descriptions as far from sal****er as
they could be placed -- one is imbedded in the center of the park
maximumly protected from salt breezes. The other is on a hillside
protected from wind by both the hill & a forest. So rather than telling
Stephen to get out his atlas, perhaps you should get out your Benmore
Gardens map & look where the rhody gardens really have been placed.

Likewise the Royal Botanic Garden of Edinburgh doesn't grow rhodies by the
sea, & you noting Edinburg itself is a seaport doesn't mean that from the
highest hill to the most distant corner it is one big saltmarsh beloved by
rhodies, & Stephen's statements still stand while yours seem odd. I could
as easily point out that in my port town -- with naval ships big enough to
not scare Bagdad -- is in the heart of one of the world's great
rhododendron capitals therefore rhodies love salt. But the reality is our
famed rhodies aren't grown on sound-front properties without major
sheltering mechanisms, or they die immediately.

If you study those gardens at Benmore & Inverewe & the RBG more closely
I'm sure you'll make out how the rhodies are protected -- at Benmore in
particuolar the landscaping is designed to protect them from salt winds.
It's not always successful alas. It may be too subtle for you to have
realized at first glance how it's arranged, but once it's pointed out
it'll be obvious.

I'm not quite sure why you're so insistant rhodies will grow in salt. Go
dump a bag of salt around the roots of your rhodies & see how long they
last! About the only rhodies that ever establish in nearly saltmarsh or
beach conditions are R. pontus & R. macrophyllum & even they have their
limitations. Among azaleas the Satsuki, Gumpo, & Indica varieties are
moderately salt tolerant, not strongly so, but if you honest-to-crap see
an azalea thriving in sea wind, assess the variety before deciding all or
most such shrubs would therefore do fine in a radically inappropriate
location.

My county, on a penninsula with scores of sal****er inlets & an enormous
sal****er canal along the full length of one side of the county & the
sound along the entire other side, would probably look like familiar
country to you, very much like around Argyle or similar places you'd know
well. A lighthouse near us is surrounded by an abandoned rugosa
plantation dating to when the hips were still basic grocery store produce
-- impenetrable jungle of rugosas flat at beech level where every year
they are well-salted by autumn & winter storms. Not one rhody survives
there -- not even the famously salt-tolerant wild coast rhody because
there is no high ground for them to get above the salt.

We are surrounded by sal****er, yet the county is famous for its azaleas.
The rich folks who live right on the beaches, howevre, have to grow rugosa
roses & suchlike, forgoing our famous rhodies. Nearby Seabeck Park right
on the salt Canal is famous for its wild rhodies -- it'd probably look
like Scotland to you & you'd probably be thinking all those rhodies are
growing in the salt air. But once you leave the hilltop & get down to sea
level, the rhodies disappear. They vastly prefer woodland edges with a
forest between them & the beaches so they are packed one beside the other
on the roadsides but not at the edges of the beech -- despite that they'd
have a better chance of making it than just about any other species or
cultivar.

-paggers
--
Get your Paghat the Ratgirl T-Shirt he
http://www.paghat.com/giftshop.html
"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to
liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot." -Thomas Jefferson

Since the variety of azalea was never mentioned, there may be some hope.

Plants which are lime tolerant tend to be more salt tolerance. Southern
Indica Azaleas such as Formosa, G.G. Gebring, and George Tabor are
considered moderately salt tolerant. This means the plants tolerant of
moderate levels of salt spray, such as that received in landscapes
adjacent to the beach front, but which are sheltered by other plants,
structures or natural dunes.

However most azaleas and rhododendrons are not tolerant of salt.

--
Pardon my spam deterrent; send email to
Cheers, Steve Henning in Reading, PA USA
http://home.earthlink.net/~rhodyman

The message
from (paghat) contains these words:

In article , Janet Baraclough
wrote:

The message
from Stephen Henning contains these words:

Janet Baraclough wrote:

contains these words:
Ericacious plants are not salt tolerant at all. Azaleas are in that
group.

Well, that just ain't so. Much of west Scotland is acid peaty soil,
lashed by salty rain and salt-laden wind. Some of the commonest
naturalised plants are ericaceous. Heather and rhododendron ponticum
both thrive right down to the (salt)water edge here. Pieris, and
deciduous and evergreen azaleas do very well, and it's common for very
wind (and salt) swept gardens to have huge old deciduous azaleas as a
windbreak on the sea side. West Scotland's salt-laden coast is famous
for its rhododendron gardens .

I spent most of the month of May visiting Scotland's famous
rhododendron
and azalea gardens and none grew rhododendrons nor azaleas near
the open
sea or near the beaches.

Garbage. If you were ever here, you never looked at a map.


The rhododendron and azalea gardens I visited
we

Royal Botanic Garden of Edinburgh (not near the sea)

I suggest you look at the atlas. Edinburgh is a SEAPORT.

Inverewe Gardens (NT) (on Loch Ewe, a sal****er estuary, but the
rhododendrons and azaleas are either grown in walled gardens or on high
ground. In their official brochure they describe the "curse of
the salt
spray")

Lochewe is a seabay, a fjiord. Open to the Atlantic Ocean. Look at
that atlas again. Few if any of the rhodos there are in the sun-facing
walled garden which was built for herbaceous and vegetable gardening.

Arduaine Gardens (NT), Inveraray (on a high slope overlooking the Sound
of Jura.)

Arduaine is at sea level on the west coast, NOT at Inveraray.

Benmore Gardens (RBG), Benmore (a woodland setting not near the sea)

Where do you GET this garbage?????? Benmore is in a woodland setting
at Dunoon on the Holy Loch; where the US Navy used to keep its
submarines.

Crarae Gardens (NT), Inveraray (on the Crarae Burn (a fresh water
creek)
not near the sea)

Crarae (I work there too) is right on Loch Fyne, another sea
inlet/fjiord. The freshwater burn through the garden runs into the sea.

Brodick Castle & Gardens, Isle of Arran (on an island on the Firth of
Clyde, but it is situated high not near the sea)

This is hilarious. I live on Arran in Brodick, I work in Brodick
Castle Gardens.The castle is 100 ft above SEAlevel, and less than 100
m from the water. The rhododendrons and azaleas are between the castle
and the sea. As I type I am looking across the SEA bay to Brodick
Castle and its gardens which run right down to the SEAwater. Many of the
most important rhodos in the garden grow (and self-seed) in the section
called "Plant hunter's walk", which is right down at sea level maybe 10
m from the water.

Not many Scots consider ponticum a garden plant.

Haven't said they do. Rp is a naturalised and highly invasive weed
throughout west Scotland, right down to the sea edge. (The gardens you
list grow far more than ponticum of course.). Yellow azalea is also a
naturalised weed in many west coastal areas, which is why I mentioned
it.

The Scots have done
considerable research on the resistance of plants to the salt spray and
to limestone. They have found plants which can tolerate these
notorious
enemies of rhododendrons and azaleas.

The rhododendron gardens of the west coast of Scotland are all on
acid soils, not limestone. Rhododendrons, because of their resistance
to salt, are often used as wind-shelter belts in the coastal gardens you
mention.

Janet

Isle of Arran, west coast of Scotland.

It seems a bit tawdry for a decent soul like yourself to be telling
Stephen you doubt he's been to Scotland when he certainly has been or
wouldn't've said he had -- he's well enough known in the rhody community
that if he started telling whoppers like you're presuming, a whole lot of
people would know. He is a good reporter on rhododendrons; I'd turn to him
in an instant for any rhody puzzle or problem I was having; his knowledge
is worthy of respect.

The effect of salt on 95% of rhody & azalea varieties is not rare
information from some loon pretending to have been to Scotland as you seem
to be imagining. Whereas, if what you have posited were true, then all
unlikely things are likewise true & the moon really is made of cheese.
What Stephen asserts is that none of these gardens grow rhodies or azaleas
near the open sea

In which he is completely wrong

or on beaches.

I have not claimed they grow "on beaches". I said ericaceous plants grow
right down to the edge of the seawater here (often, in rock crevices
where peat has washed down).

That's not the same as claiming the sea
can't be seen from anywhere from any high hilltop, which seems to be your
gambit for denying the reality that the genus rhododendron is simply &
factually extremely salt sensitive.

Now you have misread his post and mine. None of these gardens is "on
a high hilltop", and I have not claimed they are. The opposite is the
case. Inverewe, Arduaine, Edinburgh, Benmore and Brodick are all at sea
level.Stephen repeatedly claimed they are "not beside the sea" and
actually lied about the location of Arduaine which he claims is at
Inverary.


I'll assume you're mistaking hilltops in view of the sea for saltmarshes
or beeches,

Wrong. These are not hilltop gardens.


as I refuse to believe you'd lie outright.

I'm not lying at all; check out those gardens on the internet or an atlas.


In
fact the methods by which Inverewe gardens protect rhodies from salt air
are famous & imitated by large scale landscapers. Stephen never said
Inverewe was not near sal****er; he said correctly that the garden admits
to having problems due to this location, & his statements are not rendered
incorrect by you misrepresenting what he said.

Unless you're speaking of R. pontus exclusively, these shrubs cannot be
used as windbreaks against salt winds as you posit,

Why don't you read the thread again.


indeed the opposite of
what you describe was done by Osgood Mackenzie at Inverewe. He built
walled terraces to protect against sea winds, & planted Pinus scandinavius
specifically as windbreaks to protect the Inverewe rhododendron
collection from salt winds.

Paghat, give it a break. It's clear you have never visited these
gardens or you would not be supporting Stephen's foolish and inaccurate
comments.

And you can't possibly believe Benmore Botanical Gardens' woodland rhodies
are growing in a salt environment. Their rhody collection occurs mainly in
two parts of the park by their own descriptions as far from sal****er as
they could be placed -- one is imbedded in the center of the park
maximumly protected from salt breezes. The other is on a hillside
protected from wind by both the hill & a forest. So rather than telling
Stephen to get out his atlas, perhaps you should get out your Benmore
Gardens map & look where the rhody gardens really have been placed.

We're not talking "salt breezes". Scotland is a narrow patch of land
beside 3000 miles of ocean; winds are ferocious here especially in the
west. 70 mph is commonplace and 100 mph not exceptional. The shelterbelt
Osgood Mackenzie built, was primarily against that wind. Inverewe is on
a rocky promontory with sea on three sides (not a sal****er estuary, as
Stephen claims).Gardens within yards of the sea (such as Inverewe,
Brodick Castle, which Stephen claims is not near the sea, Arduaine,
which he says is inland at Inveraray 40 miles drive away, and Crarae
(Steven; "not near the sea") , cannot avoid heavy salting.

Likewise the Royal Botanic Garden of Edinburgh doesn't grow rhodies by the
sea, & you noting Edinburg itself is a seaport doesn't mean that from the
highest hill to the most distant corner it is one big saltmarsh beloved by
rhodies,

See above. There's not a window in Edinburgh that doesn't get covered
in salt in winter storms. The Botanic Gardens is about 500 yards from
the sea.

& Stephen's statements still stand while yours seem odd. I could
as easily point out that in my port town -- with naval ships big enough to
not scare Bagdad -- is in the heart of one of the world's great
rhododendron capitals therefore rhodies love salt.

I haven't claimed rhodies "love salt". Or grow on beaches.

If you study those gardens at Benmore & Inverewe & the RBG more closely
I'm sure you'll make out how the rhodies are protected -- at Benmore in
particuolar the landscaping is designed to protect them from salt winds.

It's mainly designed, to protect them from high wind, which would
wreak havoc with the large-leaved kinds. There's no escaping salt
anywhere around the Scottish seabord, it lashes down in the very heavy
winter rainfall blasting in from the Atlantic.

Save your patronage, Jessica. This is a small country, I've visited
all those gardens countless times, I work in two of them for the body
that owns and runs four of them. In leaping to the indefensible you have
only exhibited your own ignorance of Scottish gardens, climate and
topography. Well, that's understandable from someone in America who has
never seen the gardens she speaks of. Less so from an American who
claims to have visited them.

Btw, "beech" is a tree; the sandy place next to sea is spelled "beach".
The rhododendron you refer to as "pontus", is "ponticum".

Janet.

In article , Janet Baraclough
wrote:

If you study those gardens at Benmore & Inverewe & the RBG more closely
I'm sure you'll make out how the rhodies are protected -- at Benmore in
particuolar the landscaping is designed to protect them from salt winds.

It's mainly designed, to protect them from high wind, which would
wreak havoc with the large-leaved kinds. There's no escaping salt
anywhere around the Scottish seabord, it lashes down in the very heavy
winter rainfall blasting in from the Atlantic.

That's not what Mackenzie himself claimed to have done; he landscaped to
protect the rhodies from salt air, the opposite of your claim that the
rhodies themselves were planted as barriers to salt air. Mackenzie was
very clear that his design was to protect salt-sensitive plants like the
rhody collection from the salt winds. Insisting he didn't do what he
explicitly did do suggests a grave disrespect for those who brought
world-famous gardens into existence.

Save your patronage, Jessica. This is a small country, I've visited
all those gardens countless times, I work in two of them for the body
that owns and runs four of them. In leaping to the indefensible you have
only exhibited your own ignorance of Scottish gardens, climate and
topography. Well, that's understandable from someone in America who has
never seen the gardens she speaks of.

I only read about such distant gardens & their designers but I do tend to
believe what the landscapers & growers say about their own work &
intentions, which in this case are in conflict with much of what you've
written in the weirdly extreme claims that rhodies in Scotland thrive in
salty environments. Peter Cox who HAS been to every one of these gardens &
also stood in rhody gardens in my neck of the woods as well as in new
zealand & japan & elsewhere, so if there was a magical difference about
rhodiesin Scotland thriving in conditions that kill them everywhere else,
he'd know about it.

I have only admiration for those who did or are doing the actual work,
whether it is Scottish island specialists in miniature rhodies who stick
to dwarf varieties because they have to protect them inside buildings, or
major public gardens whose designers & caretakers themselves lament the
threat salt air poses any part of their collection insufficiently
protected from ocean or sea.

You'd be surprised how tight the international rhody community is, & just
about every time I am hanging out in some rhody garden with activists in
our internationally famed Rhododendron Species Foundation or the nearby
Poulsbo or Gig Harbor chapters of the Rhododendron Society, someone
mentions some Scot who has provided seeds for something or developed some
new dwarf cultivar. There is no magic difference between the rhodies grown
around Puget Sound & those grown in Scotland. They fail in persistantly
salty winds no matter which side of the world they're grown on. That fact
has to be overcome & only then does the west coast of Britain & Scotland
become second only to my region of the Pacific Northwest as ideal
rhododendron country.

Since my own penninsular Kitsap County riddled with salt inlets rather
than lochs, & adjacent Island County, are in many ways very much like
Scotland, what the Scottish rhody specialists & garden designers report
sounds totally sane & familiar & more easily accepted as truth than your
claim that in Scotland rhodies are planted as salt air barriers & all the
rhodies there like all the windows of Edinburgh must be coated in salt.
And you could be strapping on a dildo to fudgepack what you liken "owners"
of public or National Trust gardens, that wouldn't make your bold
assertion more likely, that in Scotland rhody hedges are planted to serve
as salt air barriers. Stephen's been there & knows you're fibbing; but
nobody needs to go there to know you're fibbing, no more than if I
asserted Pacific Salamanders live in the Pacific Ocean needs to be
believed until you come here & check it out for yourself. Not possible,
doesn't happen, they'd be dead.

My own home is a fifteen minute walk from uphill from Puget Sound & we
have a gorgeous view of Sinclair Inslet & Mount Rainier beyond. And we
have seasonal storms at hurricane speeds. And we have great luck with our
rhodies. That's because the salt cannot & does not reach the hilltop where
rhodies thrive, but down at the bottom of the slope those folks have to
settle for buddleia butterfly bushes & salt tolerant roses because the
seasonal dousing of salt spray does indeed kill rhodies. The nature of
rhodies is not only the same here as in Scotland, often the seedstocks &
the varieties are identical having been traded between our rhody societies
& the Foundation & the equivalent organizations in Scotland.

Less so from an American who
claims to have visited them.

You seem to be exhibiting Scottish Faery Logic. In your present state of
mind you construct a world view wherein Stephen can't possibly know what
the gardens are like because he HAS been to them, whereas I can't possibly
know because I have only read about them & their designers & looked at
pritty peektures. If nobody but you can know anything about these places
whether or not they've been there, it's no wonder your impressions vary so
much even from Mackenzie's -- as even those who laid 'em out can't
possibly know a thing about what they succeeded at doing.

Your repeat insistance that Stephen only "claims" to have been where he
went suggests that you expect people on these topics to be liars even
without basis for what sounds like an awfully malicious assumption on your
part. It makes me question YOUR claims of having done everything but
fudgepack the "owners" of public gardens, because people who expect
everyone else to be lying their asses off tend to be assessing others by
their own behavior, being immune to objective evidence. But even if you
had fudgepacked the "owners" of National Trust gardens, that is not a
basis of knowledge or accurate observation. I wish you could AT LEAST let
go of the cheapness of telling a chap recently back from Scotland he's
never been there, as I hate to think you really could be the sort of
person so steeped in dishonesty that you expect the same sorts of lying
from others.

I know a great deal about rhodies but if Stephen asserted something new to
me, I'd take it seriously, as he knows much more than I. Or you. Oso it's
not "patronage" to stick up for him; he & I have mutual acquaintances but
I don't know him personally from more than this ng & am not his friend or
patron, I know &amp like him no more or less than I know or like you. I do
know he knows what he's talking about, & it's curious to me you want to be
remain blind to some pretty reasonable expertise.

Btw, "beech" is a tree; the sandy place next to sea is spelled "beach".
The rhododendron you refer to as "pontus", is "ponticum".

And originally from the Pontus so also called Pontus Rhododendrons. But
when you reduce yourself to a spell flamer that's just despurate.

-paggers
--
Get your Paghat the Ratgirl T-Shirt he
http://www.paghat.com/giftshop.html
"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to
liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot." -Thomas Jefferson

The message
from (paghat) contains these words:


You seem to be exhibiting Scottish Faery Logic. In your present state of
mind you construct a world view wherein Stephen can't possibly know what
the gardens are like because he HAS been to them,

Stephen has already demonstrated that he doesn't actually know the
location of the gardens he says he visited. He went to great lengths to
pretend they are not beside the sea. Anyone interested can look up those
gardens, and their detailed location maps, and see for themselves.They
can also re-read the thread and count the number of times you falsely
imputed claims to me, which I did not make, and descended to your usual
sexual vulgarities to discredit my simple statement of facts. Such
tactics only discredit yourself

Janet

Janet Baraclough
wrote:
The message
from (paghat) contains these words:

You seem to be exhibiting Scottish Faery Logic. In your present state
of mind you construct a world view wherein Stephen can't possibly know
what the gardens are like because he HAS been to them,

Stephen has already demonstrated that he doesn't actually know the
location of the gardens he says he visited. He went to great lengths to
pretend they are not beside the sea. Anyone interested can look up those
gardens, and their detailed location maps, and see for themselves.They
can also re-read the thread and count the number of times you falsely
imputed claims to me, which I did not make, and descended to your usual
sexual vulgarities to discredit my simple statement of facts. Such
tactics only discredit yourself

Janet



1) You can *talk* to children and explain the
problem to them. You cannot
talk to a dog, and you cannot talk to most dog
owners who would let their
dog **** on your lawn. If they knew it was wrong,
they'd put a stop to it
without being asked.

2) In some locales, including mine, it is legal to
terminate a dog that's
damaging a food-producing garden.

_________________________________________
Usenet Zone Free Binaries Usenet Server
More than 120,000 groups
Unlimited download
http://www.usenetzone.com to open account

Janet Baraclough wrote:
paghat wrote:
You seem to be exhibiting Scottish Faery Logic. In your present state of
mind you construct a world view wherein Stephen can't possibly know what
the gardens are like because he HAS been to them,

Stephen has already demonstrated that he doesn't actually know the
location of the gardens he says he visited. He went to great lengths to
pretend they are not beside the sea. Anyone interested can look up those
gardens, and their detailed location maps, and see for themselves.They
can also re-read the thread and count the number of times you falsely
imputed claims to me, which I did not make, and descended to your usual
sexual vulgarities to discredit my simple statement of facts. Such
tactics only discredit yourself

Gosh. Who to believe? The rhody expert and the gardener who does her
research, or the woman who insists they wrong about everything because she
believes that anything within a half-hour drive of the sea is by the sea?

Yes, anyone who has followed this thread does know who has discredited
themselves.

Give it a rest.

--
Warren H.

==========
Disclaimer: My views reflect those of myself, and not my
employer, my friends, nor (as she often tells me) my wife.
Any resemblance to the views of anybody living or dead is
coincidental. No animals were hurt in the writing of this
response -- unless you count my dog who desperately wants
to go outside now.
Have an outdoor project? Get a Black & Decker power tool::
http://www.holzemville.com/mall/blackanddecker/

On Tue, 09 Aug 2005 12:48:15 -0700,
(paghat) wrote:

my own penninsular Kitsap County

Hey I've got a great compost tea buddy there!!!!




Acts of creation are ordinarily reserved for gods and poets. To plant a pine, one need only own a shovel.
-- Aldo Leopold

The message
from "Warren" contains these words:

Janet Baraclough wrote:
paghat wrote:
You seem to be exhibiting Scottish Faery Logic. In your present state of
mind you construct a world view wherein Stephen can't possibly know what
the gardens are like because he HAS been to them,

Stephen has already demonstrated that he doesn't actually know the
location of the gardens he says he visited. He went to great lengths to
pretend they are not beside the sea. Anyone interested can look up those
gardens, and their detailed location maps, and see for themselves.They
can also re-read the thread and count the number of times you falsely
imputed claims to me, which I did not make, and descended to your usual
sexual vulgarities to discredit my simple statement of facts. Such
tactics only discredit yourself

Gosh. Who to believe? The rhody expert and the gardener who does her
research, or the woman who insists they wrong about everything because she
believes that anything within a half-hour drive of the sea is by the sea?

Clearly you didn't bother to look up the maps.

Janet.

Janet

On Sun, 07 Aug 2005 14:42:10 GMT, "Cereus-validus......."
wrote:

I said Rhododendrons not Rhododentrons!!!!

wonder why spell check didn't catch that.

I grew up thinking they were roto-dendrons.

they still represent, to me, what a Rhododendron should look like

Janet Baraclough ranted:

Garbage. If you were ever here, you never looked at a map.
Stephen has already demonstrated that he doesn't actually know the
location of the gardens he says he visited. He went to great lengths to
pretend they are not beside the sea. Anyone interested can look up those
gardens, and their detailed location maps, and see for themselves.
The Botanic Gardens is about 500 yards from the sea.

You are very vague about what you call near the sea, and very inaccurate
in your estimates. To be more precise:

RBG of Edinburgh, 1.5 miles from the firth of Forth, not very close.
Glendoick Gardens, 1.8 miles from the firth of Tay, even further.
Branklyn Garden, 3 miles from the firth of Tay, much further.
Invereww Gardens, 100 meters from Loch Ewe, close.
Arduaine Gardens, borders the Sound of Jura at one point, but no rhodies
there, very close.
Younger Botanic Garden (Benmore), 2 miles from Holy Loch, not the least
bit close.
Crarae Gardens, 1000 feet from Loch Fyne, not very close.
Brodick Castle & Gardens runs down to about 100 meters from the firth of
Clyde, quite close.

None of these gardens is "on
a high hilltop", and I have not claimed they are. The opposite is the
case. Inverewe, Arduaine, Edinburgh, Benmore and Brodick are all at sea
level.Stephen repeatedly claimed they are "not beside the sea" and
actually lied about the location of Arduaine which he claims is at
Inverary.

None are at sea level or they would disappear at the highest tides.
Inverewe Gardens is the most exposed to the sea.
Arduaine Gardens in on a 239 ft. high slope of An Cnap overlooking the
Sound of Jura seimi-sheltered to the west by the 300 ft. tall Luing and
Garvellachs.
The RBGE has an elevation of 134 meters.
Younter Botanic Garden at Benmore features a 450 foot high view point.
Brodick Castle & Gardens is situated on a sheltered plateau above the
firth of Clyde, but the gardens extend down near the highway along the
shore.

And Arduaine Gardens is not very near any place, but it is 16 mi. west
of Inveraray (43 mi. by road) & 20 mi. south of Oban, so Inveraray is
closest to Inveraray (not Inverary) if you look at a map.

West Scotland's salt-laden coast is famous for its
rhododendron gardens .

How can areas with 60 to 90 inches of annual rainfall be salt laden?!?!?!

Inverewe Gardens, main rainfall 64 in.
Arduaine Gardens, mean rainfall 60 in.
Younger Botanic Gardens at Benmore, mean rainfall 90 in.
Crarae Gardens, mean rainfall 60 in.
Brodick Castle & Gardens, mean rainfall 80 in.

We're not talking "salt breezes". Scotland is a narrow patch of land
beside 3000 miles of ocean; winds are ferocious here especially in the
west. 70 mph is commonplace and 100 mph not exceptional.

Every one of these gardens has some protection from the prevailing
westerly winds:

The RBGE is 1.5 miles inland and 134 m. high and nestled amongst large
trees.
Glendoick Gardens is 1.8 miles inland and nestled amongst large trees.
Branklyn Garden is 3 miles inland and nestled amongst large trees.
Inverewe Gardens (NT) the rhododendrons and azaleas are grown amongst
large trees in areas naturally sheltered behind "wind- and
salt-barriers" of Griselinia littoralis and other plants about 100 m
from the Southern tip of Loch Ewe where it is nestled.
Arduaine Gardens is nestled amongst large trees near the Sound of Jura
but is elevated and slightly shelterd from the westerly winds by the 300
ft tall Luing and Garvellachs.
Younger Botanic Gardens at Benmore is 2 miles from the sea and nestled
amongst large trees. It is elevated and has much protection to the west.
Crarae Gardens is protected from the westerly winds on the east side of
a hillside nestled amongst large trees and is situated about 1000 feet
from Loch Fyne.
Brodick Castle & Gardens is protected from the westerly winds by the
3,866 foot tall Goatfell.

Stephen repeatedly claimed they are "not beside the sea" and
actually lied about the location of Arduaine which he claims is at
Inverary.

Wow, such an unfriendly accusation.

PS It is Inveraray that is in Argyll.
--
Pardon my spam deterrent; send email to
Visit my Rhododendron and Azalea web pages at:
http://home.earthlink.net/~rhodyman/rhody.html
Also visit the Rhododendron and Azalea Bookstore at:
http://home.earthlink.net/~rhodyman/rhodybooks.html
Cheers, Steve Henning in Reading, PA USA Zone 6

The message
from Stephen Henning contains these words:

To be more precise:

Here's an example of your "precision":

Brodick Castle & Gardens runs down to about 100 meters from the firth of
Clyde, quite close.

Brodick Castle & Gardens is situated on a sheltered plateau above the
firth of Clyde, but the gardens extend down near the highway along the
shore.

You don't seem to know which, do you? Here's a picture; the garden is
below the castle and adjoins the sea

http://www.arransites.co.uk/images/bro_castle2.jpg


The "highway", is a narrow road, immediately adjoining the sea. It's
just wide enough for two vehicles to pass each other.The oldest and most
famous rhododendron area called the Planthunter's Walk, is at the bottom
of the garden alongside the road from which it's separated by a metal
rail. last year we spent weeks cutting year back rhododendrons
overhanging that rail and obstructing the narrow road. On the other
side of the narrow road, literally, is the sea. Salt water, tidal, with
seals, the occasional whale, shark, submarine etc.


And Arduaine Gardens is not very near any place, but it is 16 mi. west
of Inveraray (43 mi. by road) & 20 mi. south of Oban, so Inveraray is
closest to Inveraray (not Inverary) if you look at a map.

Very precise; but unfortunately, meaningless.

West Scotland's salt-laden coast is famous for its
rhododendron gardens .

How can areas with 60 to 90 inches of annual rainfall be salt laden?!?!?!

The rain, and wind, come from 300 miles of Atlantic ocean and are
heavily salt-laden.

Brodick Castle & Gardens is protected from the westerly winds by the
3,866 foot tall Goatfell.

Wrong. Goatfell is 2866 ft tall and lies directly north of the
castle and gardens; so does not protect them from the prevailing wind,
which is from the south-west.

Because Brodick Castle is so exposed to the wind, it's the site of
weather station for the Meteorological Office.

Janet

In article , Janet Baraclough
wrote:


The rain, and wind, come from 300 miles of Atlantic ocean and are
heavily salt-laden.

Next you'll be asserting water can be lit on fire! Salt is NOT evaporated
into clouds & precipitation NEVER salinizes soils. Scotland is almost as
good as the Pacific Northwest for rhodies because they require acidic
soils & areas of heavy rainfall wash salts OUT of the soil which results
in acidity. In LOW-preciptation regions soils become saline. And
rhododendrons will no longer grow.

And also as in the Pacific Northwest rhodies can be grown just about
anywhere in Scotland EXCEPT along salty shores or saltmarshes. Your
insistance to the contrary only works if the fairies are busily trumping
science with their lovely magic spells. So you really might as well be
repeatedly posting personal testimonies on how you can too set fire to
H20.

In Scotland saline garden soils are caused by immediate proximity to
shores or lochs, from irrigation gotten from brackish groundwater of the
lochs, & from chemicalized agricultural methods. If you can cite something
factual & scientific as evidence that the Atlantic ocean leaps up & jumps
300 miles inland, cite that wondrous evidence that rainfall occurs
differently in Scotland than in any other place on Earth.

But please, no more of these fairytales about your allegedly busy life
spent in all the gardens of scotland where every raincloud brings an
imaginary salty deluge that delights those fairy-rhododendrons magically
grown as barriers against the sea. I'm beginning to suspect you never
leave the house at all. The depth of your current devotion to a bunch of
nonsense really should be beneath you.

-paghat the ratgirl
--
Get your Paghat the Ratgirl T-Shirt he
http://www.paghat.com/giftshop.html
"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to
liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot." -Thomas Jefferson