Is it OK to put dog poop on a garden?
 

I am trying to settle an argument with someone that says you can and
even thinks it stupid if people don't. Any opinions either way?

Is it OK to put dog poop on a garden?
 

Xref: news7 rec.gardens:214262

On Mon, 17 Mar 2003 21:11:43 GMT, Big Daddy
wrote:

I am trying to settle an argument with someone that says you can and
even thinks it stupid if people don't. Any opinions either way?


Carnivorous animal feces should not be added to a garden nor compost.
It could contain harmful pathogens. I know someone who added dog
feces to an area that grew spearmint, but they did not use the
spearmint for consumption. Rather than adding to a compost pile, you
could probably safely add it to a "digester," which can take oils,
meat, and other things not normally suited for a compost pile.

Is it OK to put dog poop on a garden?
 

No fresh poop is good because it will burn the plants. Manure needs to be
aged so the ammonia is gone.
Jane
"Big Daddy" wrote in message
...
I am trying to settle an argument with someone that says you can and
even thinks it stupid if people don't. Any opinions either way?

Is it OK to put dog poop on a garden?
 

Xref: news7 rec.gardens:214262

On Mon, 17 Mar 2003 21:11:43 GMT, Big Daddy
wrote:

I am trying to settle an argument with someone that says you can and
even thinks it stupid if people don't. Any opinions either way?


Carnivorous animal feces should not be added to a garden nor compost.
It could contain harmful pathogens. I know someone who added dog
feces to an area that grew spearmint, but they did not use the
spearmint for consumption. Rather than adding to a compost pile, you
could probably safely add it to a "digester," which can take oils,
meat, and other things not normally suited for a compost pile.

Is it OK to put dog poop on a garden?
 

No fresh poop is good because it will burn the plants. Manure needs to be
aged so the ammonia is gone.
Jane
"Big Daddy" wrote in message
...
I am trying to settle an argument with someone that says you can and
even thinks it stupid if people don't. Any opinions either way?

Is it OK to put dog poop on a garden?
 

In article , Big
Daddy wrote:

I am trying to settle an argument with someone that says you can and
even thinks it stupid if people don't. Any opinions either way?

Controled experiments have found dog poo heats rapidly, composts
completely, leaves no potentially harmful pathogens behind. As for
putting it fresh & yucky right in the garden, there are indeed many
potential pathogens one might be exposed to, the more harmful if if one
doesn't follow normal hygienic practices after gardening. But at worst,
it's no more dangerous than living with an animal that poops in the yard &
scrapes its bum across the living room carpet & licks peanut butter
sandwich particles right into the kids' mouths. The hysterics one
occasionally hears about composted poo of carniverous beasties isn't 100%
baseless, but certainly exaggerated to the point of superstition -- for
what risk does exist will always be considerably less than just petting
the dog.There are in fact so many illnesses that dogs spread to humans
it's a wonder the worry-warts ever have a pet, & they should also stop
gardening & wrap themselves up in sterilized bubblewrap, since every year
quite a few people, generally elderly with no tetanus shots in 20 years,
get blood poisoning & die just from gardening in wholesome soil. If people
wanna worry about stuff that'll make 'em sick up to & including dropping
dead, they should start with their fat & sugar intake, not with the
possibility that their habit of juggling rubber dog doodies might cause
them to accidentally grab a couple fistfuls of actual dogshit.

-paghat the ratgirl

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
See the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com/

Is it OK to put dog poop on a garden?
 

In article , Big
Daddy wrote:

I am trying to settle an argument with someone that says you can and
even thinks it stupid if people don't. Any opinions either way?

Controled experiments have found dog poo heats rapidly, composts
completely, leaves no potentially harmful pathogens behind. As for
putting it fresh & yucky right in the garden, there are indeed many
potential pathogens one might be exposed to, the more harmful if if one
doesn't follow normal hygienic practices after gardening. But at worst,
it's no more dangerous than living with an animal that poops in the yard &
scrapes its bum across the living room carpet & licks peanut butter
sandwich particles right into the kids' mouths. The hysterics one
occasionally hears about composted poo of carniverous beasties isn't 100%
baseless, but certainly exaggerated to the point of superstition -- for
what risk does exist will always be considerably less than just petting
the dog.There are in fact so many illnesses that dogs spread to humans
it's a wonder the worry-warts ever have a pet, & they should also stop
gardening & wrap themselves up in sterilized bubblewrap, since every year
quite a few people, generally elderly with no tetanus shots in 20 years,
get blood poisoning & die just from gardening in wholesome soil. If people
wanna worry about stuff that'll make 'em sick up to & including dropping
dead, they should start with their fat & sugar intake, not with the
possibility that their habit of juggling rubber dog doodies might cause
them to accidentally grab a couple fistfuls of actual dogshit.

-paghat the ratgirl

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
See the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com/

Is it OK to put dog poop on a garden?
 

Carnivore and omnivore feces contain heavy metals. (mercury etc.) The metals
will transfer from your soil to your plants. When you eat these plants the
metals will collect in your brain tissue and eventually cause damage.

Laura B.


I am trying to settle an argument with someone that says you can and
even thinks it stupid if people don't. Any opinions either way?

Is it OK to put dog poop on a garden?
 

The rule of thumb that I learned about composting manure is that any animal
that is a carnivore (meat eating), do NOT use their waste
on gardens or in compost. Any animal that is herbivore (plant eating), DO
use in compost and gardens.

I guess that's why chicken, cow, horse, etc. seems to be the poop of choice
for fertilizers. Don't worry, I had a stupid neighbor argue
with me that her cat poop in her gardens were fertilizing her plants. It
didn't take long to see flies, maggots and dead plants. HA!

Do a search on composting and manure and I bet you'll find some info on why
certain animal waste is not used.

Penny
Zone 7b - North Carolina
"Big Daddy" wrote in message
...
I am trying to settle an argument with someone that says you can and
even thinks it stupid if people don't. Any opinions either way?

Is it OK to put dog poop on a garden?
 

In article m, "Penny
Morgan" wrote:

The rule of thumb that I learned about composting manure is that any animal
that is a carnivore (meat eating), do NOT use their waste
on gardens or in compost. Any animal that is herbivore (plant eating), DO
use in compost and gardens. I guess that's why chicken, cow, horse, etc.
seems to be the poop of choice for fertilizers.

The problem of e-coli in herbivore poo & salmonella from chickenshit means
it's JUST AS DANGEROUS as dog & cat poo with its potential to carry
toxocara to people. Which is to say, it's not terribly dangerous if you're
not sticking poo-encrusted fingers in your mouth or up your nose. These
superstitions against dog & cat poo are hard to weed out of the gardening
community! The distinction commonly made between carnivore poo "bad"
herbivore poo "good" is completely baseless. One of the riskiest exposures
is e-coli in cowpies, & salmonella in chickenshit. Well-composted shit is
safe, regardless of the animal it plopped out of.

Don't worry, I had a stupid neighbor argue
with me that her cat poop in her gardens were fertilizing her plants. It
didn't take long to see flies, maggots and dead plants. HA!

Do a search on composting and manure and I bet you'll find some info on why
certain animal waste is not used.

Do a search on the web & you can find that black people have lower IQs
than white people, that guns don't kill people, & flying saucer
kidnappings are real.

Most of what can be read throughout the Web on this topic is, err, crap.
But this page is pretty good:
http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/ga...omposting.html
It notes that thermophilic activity at 130 degrees is sufficient to kill
ALL pathogens in dog & cat poo, with five turns at three day intervals.
This is based on actual tests at the University of Oregon. Several other
univeristy websites have contrary information -- none of them did tests so
just posted opinions without checking the actual studies. And of course
the generic garden sites are just the lamest information imaginable,
mostly rumors & myths & no facts whatsoever. The University of Oregon
study showed that temperatures ROUTINELY reach a high enough temperature
in any well-mixed pile, it is not the least bit difficult to do safely.


Penny

The credible reason to avoid fresh dog & cat feces is it carries diseases
(as does herbivore poo). Yet the worries are the same as one would have
from picking up your dog's poops while walking the dog (as laws require),
or cleaning the catbox, which are if anything RISKIER activities. The
number of POSSIBLE diseases humans can get from touching the animals
themselves is so long & scary that a full accounting would probably cause
some people to get rid of all their pets immediately. People who practice
good family hygiene are not at much at risk. I'll repost a commentary on
composting dog poo:

-------
-------

MANY people compost their own dog's poo. Some people have thought there is
a risk to doing this, though a much smaller risk than having a dog at all
since pathogens are much more likely to be passed living animal to animal
(& the dog is equally likely to get something from its human). Some have
said it is best to let the turds sun-dry to kill any possible pathogenic
microbes, THEN toss into the compost. Actually, as it turns out, all
worries are pretty much groundless.

Good composting methods DO kill pathogens in dogshit contrary to
superstition. There wouldn't be a big Zoo Doo project in so many American
zoos if pathogens survived the composting process for manure composts. It
is not quite exactly the "heat" per se that breaks down matter in a
compost, the heat is a natural by-product of the endeavorings of the
bacteria, funguses & actinomycetes, the one-celled little critters &
primitive plantlifes that cause the fermentation of carboyhydrates as they
yum-yum-eatem-up their way through any kind of rotting matter turning it
from a pile of Zoo Doo or Dog Turds into rich sweet-smelling earth.

A fairly major study of this was undertaken in Alaska largely for the
benifit of dog mushers, whose kennels & training farms accumulate huge
dogshit piles, & wanted to know DEFINITIVELY if an almost pure dog-manure
compost would be a safe, healthy, high-nutrient garden soil enrichment.

Ann Rippy's Alaska study with scientific method set out to determine how
great a ratio of dogshit (nitrogen source) to woodchips or shredded straw
(carbon source) was most effective. The wrong mix was not necessarily any
less likely to be effective, but the right ratio speeded the process along
most handily. Ann Rippy found that two-thirds dogshit to one-third carbon
source is best. The heat-range in the compost was somewhere around 150
degrees (130 to 170) Fahrenheit. When temperatures fell lower, "turning"
or otherwise introducing oxygen to the mix got the temperature back up.
This temperature is more than sufficient to kill Toxicara canis (ringworm)
which is the most heat-tolerant of all pathogens ever likely to be in
dogshit. It took a scant three weeks, and only two turns to keep oxygen
level up, before the manure pile smelled like a perfectly sweet compost
pile, I wish I could make the same claim for my compost pile which doesn't
even have any shit in it. Hence Ann Rippy's study concluded: Compost from
dogshit is good, safe, & healthy to use for enriching garden soil.

-paghat the ratgirl

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
See the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com/

Is it OK to put dog poop on a garden?
 

In article ,
(Thalocean2) wrote:

Carnivore and omnivore feces contain heavy metals. (mercury etc.) The metals
will transfer from your soil to your plants. When you eat these plants the
metals will collect in your brain tissue and eventually cause damage.

Laura B.

If heavy metals were a problem in your cat & dog feces, it would be from
something in the immediate environment, & their heavy metals would
possibly match those of all the people in the same environment. It
certainly is NOT a problem restricted to carnivore or omnivore.

Composting does play a role in the introduction of unwanted heavy metals
into the gardening environment: Use of fireplace ashes, lawn clippings
from grasses fed mineral fertilizers, use of toxified lumber's shavings or
sawdust or painted material or dyed paper, & the heavy metals that pollute
CATTLE feeds hence steer & cow manures or which are even normal in sorghum
feeds & suchlike. Even STRAW can be a source of heavy metal pollutants.
There are many sources including a natural amount of heavy metals in the
soils used by plants as nutrients or picked up in cell manufacture, but
the usual causes of excess pollutants & excess phosphorus in the cattle
feeds, as in the lawn clippings or in straw, & ultimately in manure
composts (largely from herbevores), are mineral fertilizers, non-organic
gardening practices (chiefly pesticide use), bulking agents in commercial
composts, automobile & lawnmower pollutants, & even abrasion from stable
equipment. Among which the most signficant are phosphorus fertilizers
typically contaminated with zinc & cadmium; pesticides & herbicides; &
airborn pollutants from factories & motor vehicles including lawnmowers --
these are the sources that end up even in (herbevore) livestock manures
then composts. Dog poo isn't even on the map.

Some miscellaneous dog & cat poo compost facts:

Dog poo compost is higher in phosphates because dogs eat bones (or at
least dogfood with bonemeal in it).

Even clean soil can cause disease (gardening is a foremost cause of blood
poisoning, as tetanus lives in most soils) & good hygiene is certainly
necessary whether or not one is composting poo. But poor compost practices
may permit Toxocara to live some while in a heap, & hygiene becomes
especially necessary if one is turning a smelly pile. When the compost is
so well aged it smells like sweet autumn humous, even Toxocara will have
disappeared, yet because tetanus is always a risk, good hygiene after
handling composts or even regular soils remains essential. And note most
importantly, if your dog IS infected with Toxocara, then the eggs are
already all over your garden -- poo in the compost does not actually to
that risk.

Thermophilic conditions that result in pure ready compost in only three
weeks are difficult for most of us to achieve, though Ann Ripey's study
used normal backyard composting techniques. One reason it worked so well
for her is because, in fact, the presense of feces in a compost pile
itself increases thermophilic activity. If MORE of us would compost the
catbox & the dog-doo, the temperature of the compost pile would
automatically be higher. But anyone who worried about their temperatures
could just cycle the compost back into the garden after a full year.

If you read THE HUMANURE HANDBOOK - A Guide to Composting Human Manure --
you may still not want to break the law & dump your own turds in your
compost pile, but the whys, hows, & wherefores that show even human turds
would in fact be suitable for composting would help allay peoples' largely
baseless fears of composting doggy-duties & catbox gobbets.

All that said, it is still true that Toxocara is a health risk from owning
a dog or growing vegetables where dogs have access -- a risk all but the
most inveterate animal-haters have always been willing to take. And poo in
the compost is the exact level of real risk, not greater. Children are
most prone to getting worms from dogs but from direct contact with the
dog. Divisiveness on this issue is apt to remain because Toxocara will
always be a credible rather than merely superstitious worry -- but it is
the same risk from owning a dog at all. That heat-composted dog manure is
100% safe in all cases is nevertheless divisive because people will reply
that backyard composts do not sustain the reach the ideal temperature --
though in fact the 130 degree temperatures are EASILY and ROUTINELY
sustained, & when they are not it is mainly because of the lack of a fecal
component which would in fact increase the thermophilic activity. There
are arguments on both sides, but as point of fact, there are parallel
risks to steer & cattle manures & chicken manures, e-coli being only the
most ferocious of many risks, but as with dog poo, no risk at all when
fully composted.

So to me this remains central -- people who are paranoid about this sort
of thing shouldn't be gardening at all, since blood poisoning from merley
touching the ground is as great a risk, & even if they don't have pets,
some neighbor's dog probably pooped somewhere along the lawn, & risk of
toxocara is ALREADY as great as ever it gets. Indeed, the only safe thing
is never to go outside at all, & slather oneself with Pine Sol on an
hourly basis until the phenols destroy these paranoids' livers.

-paghat the ratgirl

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
See the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com/

Is it OK to put dog poop on a garden?
 

Thalocean2 wrote:

Carnivore and omnivore feces contain heavy metals. (mercury etc.)...




I don't feed my pets heavy metals, so they must be transmuting their
organic food into heavy metals. Think of that! the ancient alchemists
must have been looking in the wrong place if they failed to create
valuable metals from dross. (PS: I'm an omnivore, so I should check my
output also).

On the other hand, maybe they're chewing on my car when I'm not looking.

Is it OK to put dog poop on a garden?
 

From: Dwight Sipler

On the other hand, maybe they're chewing on my car when I'm not looking.


No, that would be MY car they're chewing on, and I would appreciate if you
would get them to stop, kind sir!

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TAKETHISOUT budysbackagain(@)THAT TOO a-oh-ell dot com

Is it OK to put dog poop on a garden?
 

Big Daddy wrote in message ...
I am trying to settle an argument with someone that says you can and
even thinks it stupid if people don't. Any opinions either way?

I have been trying to convince my dogs that their feces does not
belong in the garden but they just cock their heads to the side and
give me dumb looks. Periodically I remove it.

Is it OK to put dog poop on a garden?
 

Everyone acts as if dog crap, or any other type of crap is toxic. Its
not. Just compost it and use it all the same.

Is it OK to put dog poop on a garden?
 

I don't feed my pets heavy metals, so they must be transmuting their
organic food into heavy metals. Think of that! the ancient alchemists
must have been looking in the wrong place if they failed to create
valuable metals from dross. (PS: I'm an omnivore, so I should check my
output also).

On the other hand, maybe they're chewing on my car when I'm not looking.


Bioamplification--little things eat minute amounts of heavy metal which
concentrate in their tissues. Larger things eat lots of them and amplify the
concentration. Those critters are eaten by even larger ones, and so the
process goes. This was the whole pesticide and eagle problem--by the time you
were up the food chain to fish that eagles ate, the toxins were at high enough
concentration to cause genetic damage. If your dog only eats dog food,
probably not an issue, but if it's a farm dog or one that otherwise has a lot
of time alone outside.... Even then, do you know what the food chain leading
up to your commercial dog food was? You may very well be feeding your pet
relatively high levels of heavy metals.

--
The US government wants the power to read citizens' email, but refuses to
defend the nation's borders. What's wrong with this picture?

Is it OK to put dog poop on a garden?
 

Yes, it is a problem with human waste as well. That's why the human waste that
is spread all over farms in many states is first spun to remove the heavy
metals. It's a natural part of humans, dogs, cats etc. waste and when it's
concetrated to one small area, (your garden) the heavy metals can and do build
up to toxic levels. Do a quick search and look at all the court case documents
where farmers are sueing because their fields are ruined.

I disagree that herbivore feces contains nearly the amount heavy metals that
carnivore feces contains. This is taught to first year ag and biology
students.

Laura B.
(who's keeping the dog, cat, human crap out of her garden so she doesn't get
brain damage as well)

--"If heavy metals were a problem in your cat & dog feces, it would be from
something in the immediate environment, & their heavy metals would
possibly match those of all the people in --the same environment."

Is it OK to put dog poop on a garden?
 

In article ,
(Thalocean2) wrote:

Yes, it is a problem with human waste as well. That's why the human
waste that
is spread all over farms in many states is first spun to remove the heavy
metals. It's a natural part of humans, dogs, cats etc. waste and when it's
concetrated to one small area, (your garden) the heavy metals can and do build
up to toxic levels. Do a quick search and look at all the court case
documents
where farmers are sueing because their fields are ruined.

I disagree that herbivore feces contains nearly the amount heavy metals that
carnivore feces contains. This is taught to first year ag and biology
students.

Laura B.
(who's keeping the dog, cat, human crap out of her garden so she doesn't get
brain damage as well)

Provide citations. If it's a first year ag thing then you should have
fifty at hand, pick two that are least suspect. This must be done when
there's a risk of bullshit being composted on Usenet, so I will do
likewise. I've read scores of articles (many peer-reviewed) & never seen
any that stated carnivore poo is a heavy metals problem distinct from any
other poo. The primary sources are always listed. I will repeat them, with
some citations. If the one you would cite instead, "carnivore poo," has
even the junior high school first year biology citation you allege, should
be easy to list by author & date so that the rest of us can extend our
knowledge too, supposing we're not already braindead that is. Because the
literature I've seen when comparing, say, hog manure to chicken manure
finds chicken manure to be a huge source of heavy metals, but hog manures
have much less\

Primary sources of heavy metals in garden composts:

Pesticides [plus #1 source of dangerous organic pollutants]
[Tuft & Nichols. Poultry Science 70, 1991]

Feeds that enter into farm manures
[Sims & Wolf. Adv. Agron. 52, 1994. Van der Watt et al. J. Environmental
Qual, 1994.]

Poultry & livestock feeds which metals & metalloids As, Co, Cu, Fe, Mn,
Se, Zn -- much of it intentionally fed to them to increase egg production.
[Tuft & Nichols. Poultry Science 70, 1991]

Farmyard manure, mineral-fertilisers, & atmospheric precipitation
[Kranert & Fruth. Proceedings of Composting 2002 Symposium, Ohio State Univ]

Farmyard manure
[Reinhoffer et al. Proceedings of Composting 2002 Symposium, Ohio State Univ]

MUNICIPLE sludge & treated sewage sometimes goes into commercial composts
& while these are not in garden composts, they can enter gardens by
purchasing commercial compost products. All of the above are also sources
of heavy metals in municiple sludge & sewer-based composts, but the
primary source is a bit different:

1. Industrial waste
2.Consumer products
[Barker & Bryson, Scientific World Journal 2, 2002]

It is difficult to oversimplify because different heavy metals come from
wildly different sources. According to the Cornell University Solid Waste
& Compost Fact Sheet, the foremost source of Cadmium in solid waste &
compost is tobacco ash. Cadmium is absorbed especially well in mushrooms.
Mushrooms can thus be a source of cadmium in diet if grown in contaminated
composts, or in mushroom composts per se. But the original source even in
municiple waste is smokers. Every metal has a different story -- none of
which, it turns out, have anything special to do with carnivore poo.

Further, why farmyard manure is the most cited after pesticides &
fertilizers as the origin of heavy metals in composts, with chickens feeds
being the foremost source followed by cattle, even these are in great part
actually pesticide & fertilizer in origin, except the extravagant
pollutants from chicken manures which are heavy metals intentionally fed
to chickens.

Although kennel wastes go into municiple sludge for composts, no article
even hints that this is a source of heavy metals. Although Zoo Doo
programs nationwide compost herbivore & carnivore waste together, research
continues to indict chicken manure composts formost.

The great number of (misguided) compost experts who do not approve of
including dog & cat feces in composts use the (in great part irrational)
fear of toxoplasma as the reason -- NOT this trumped up heavy metal
argument. Toxoplasma is a red herring because kissing your dog or cat or
letting them poop ANYwhere is the actual threat & no compost worker has
EVER been documented to have contracted roundworms from compost. Heavy
metal is an even bigger red herring since each metal has a different story
about its first-source & how it gets into sewage waste &/or into composts,
& no study I can locate even hints that carnivors have anything whatsoever
to do with it, though chicken feeds & fertilizers & pesticides &
industrial wastes are mentioned repeatedly.

So if this is "first year biology" info you've shared, I strongly suggest
your junior high school biology teacher misled you. If among the thousands
of ACTUAL scientific reports on these issues you can find the rare one
about carnivore poo I will certainly read it & extend my knowledge. But
fairly obviously it's awfully far down the list of possible sources for
heavy metal contaminants since the major ones are well-documented in
scientific journals while the dumbass stuff about the extra dangers posed
by carnivore poo seems to be found chiefly among editorialists who did no
studies at all, & have no sources for their allegations.

The comical thing is, of course, IF there were any truth to the silly
notion that cats & dogs waste is a major source of heavy metal pollutants,
the only thing that could be done about it is to kill all the bloody
little *******s & let them go extinct. Because whether you throw their
turds in the garbage so that they go to landfills, down the toilet so they
end up municiple waste, or leave them in the lawn to break down naturally
then discard or compost the clippings, it all ends up ultimately in the
same environment. Fortunately, this is one dread that even the paranoids
among us can shunt aside, & worry a bit more (if you must worry about
something) about what is being fed to the chickens.

-paghat

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
See the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com/