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Wooden 4x4 vs Vinyl or Plastic posts?
does anybody have any recommendations which material is cheaper/better
in teh long run? plastic, wooden or vinyl posts? any stories to share? thanks dp |
Wooden 4x4 vs Vinyl or Plastic posts?
"dp" wrote in message om... does anybody have any recommendations which material is cheaper/better in teh long run? plastic, wooden or vinyl posts? any stories to share? thanks dp Treated wood will last longer than plastic or vinyl if your talking about ground contact outside use. Plastic and vinyl breakdown under UV. |
Wooden 4x4 vs Vinyl or Plastic posts?
Don Staples wrote:
"dp" wrote in message om.. does anybody have any recommendations which material is cheaper/better in teh long run? plastic, wooden or vinyl posts? any stories to share? thanks dp Treated wood will last longer than plastic or vinyl if your talking about ground contact outside use. Plastic and vinyl breakdown under UV. Plastic barriers last indefinitely if covered. If you prefer untreated wood, just lay a strip of heavy polyethylene first. |
Wooden 4x4 vs Vinyl or Plastic posts?
"dp" wrote in message om... : does anybody have any recommendations which material is cheaper/better : in teh long run? plastic, wooden or vinyl posts? any stories to share? : thanks : dp ummmmmmmm, the only plastic/vinyl posts that i am familiar with, slip *over* treated 4x4 posts... the vinyl is not the support...but im sure some use it soley for the post, then wonder why its so flimsy |
Wooden 4x4 vs Vinyl or Plastic posts?
On Tue, 11 Feb 2003 08:03:16 -0800, dp wrote:
does anybody have any recommendations which material is cheaper/better in teh long run? plastic, wooden or vinyl posts? any stories to share? thanks dp Vinyl is final but not very strong. Not fimilar with plastic. Wood is good but it doesn't have a long life span when incontact with dirt/water. Trex ( http://trex.com/ ) is a composit plastic/wood material used alot for decking. They are making it in more sizes now. I use the 1/2 inch by 4inch benderboards for edging alot. The dealer quoted me 20 years in the ground. I hear that their are making 4x4's now, but I've havn't seen one yet. |
Wooden 4x4 vs Vinyl or Plastic posts?
We're still using lots of 20 - 30 year old wood posts that were hand
peeled by my father-in-law and then soaked in creosote. Go with a good wood post. Randy http://ruralroute2.com does anybody have any recommendations which material is cheaper/better in teh long run? plastic, wooden or vinyl posts? any stories to share? thanks dp |
Wooden 4x4 vs Vinyl or Plastic posts?
MacTech wrote: We're still using lots of 20 - 30 year old wood posts that were hand peeled by my father-in-law and then soaked in creosote. Go with a good wood post. Randy http://ruralroute2.com does anybody have any recommendations which material is cheaper/better in teh long run? plastic, wooden or vinyl posts? any stories to share? thanks dp I think Creosote is a no-no these days, but I have some of the "green" treated 4x4 posts going on 20 years in the ground with no signs of rotting. I have pulled a few to move fences, etc. and was amazed at the lack of decay. Creosote is probably better in terms of preservation, though...my property is adjacent to an abandoned railroad right-of-way. The tracks were removed about 50 years ago, and a lot of the ties were used locally for fence posts, etc. The railroads used "date tacks" to indicate when ties were installed. A date tack is basically a nail similar to a roofing nail, with a 2-digit number on the head to indicate the year the tie was first laid down. I pulled a tie out 2 years ago that was being used for a gatepost. It had some decay around the spike holes that were underground, but was in pretty good shape otherwise. It also had a date tack in it. "27"....that's 1927! I'm still using it as a stop for my wife's car, so she doesn't run over the barbecue when she parks. I am leery of vinyl due to the UV issues. I have seen enough lawn chairs and kids' toys disintegrate due to exposure. Of course, I wouldn't give a kid a treated 4x4 to play with, either...;) Will |
Wooden 4x4 vs Vinyl or Plastic posts?
"MacTech" wrote
We're still using lots of 20 - 30 year old wood posts that were hand peeled by my father-in-law and then soaked in creosote. Go with a good wood post. Even if creosote were still available for private use there is "wood" and then there is "wood." :-) What you say is probably true for locust, Osage orange, chestnut and some types of cedar posts under ideal soil conditions, but I'm lucky if I can get 6-8 years out of untreated peeled tamarack, and maybe 10-12 years out of untreated peeled lodgepole pine fence posts. I will continue to use wood posts as I can cut them right here on the place. If I had to buy posts, at the very least I would look for commercially treated wood. Even then I'm not at all sure they would be the most economical over the long run in a damp climate. Skip Skip & Christy Hensler THE ROCK GARDEN Newport, WA http://www.povn.com/rock/ |
Wooden 4x4 vs Vinyl or Plastic posts?
Get a 55 gallon drum, put a few posts in it, and store your
crankcase oil in the drum. Leave the posts in there a few months. It's what a lot of old-timers did, especially for corner posts. And after the soak, it was into a dry drum for several days to drain a bit then a quick dip into water to clear the superficial residue. Not saying anything about environmental considerations, just mentioning something that was very effective. The Rock Garden wrote in message ... "MacTech" wrote We're still using lots of 20 - 30 year old wood posts that were hand peeled by my father-in-law and then soaked in creosote. Go with a good wood post. Even if creosote were still available for private use there is "wood" and then there is "wood." :-) What you say is probably true for locust, Osage orange, chestnut and some types of cedar posts under ideal soil conditions, but I'm lucky if I can get 6-8 years out of untreated peeled tamarack, and maybe 10-12 years out of untreated peeled lodgepole pine fence posts. I will continue to use wood posts as I can cut them right here on the place. If I had to buy posts, at the very least I would look for commercially treated wood. Even then I'm not at all sure they would be the most economical over the long run in a damp climate. Skip Skip & Christy Hensler THE ROCK GARDEN Newport, WA http://www.povn.com/rock/ |
Wooden 4x4 vs Vinyl or Plastic posts?
"Michael Baugh" wrote
Get a 55 gallon drum, put a few posts in it, and store your crankcase oil in the drum. Leave the posts in there a few months. It's what a lot of old-timers did, especially for corner posts. And after the soak, it was into a dry drum for several days to drain a bit then a quick dip into water to clear the superficial residue. Not saying anything about environmental considerations, just mentioning something that was very effective. Been there, tried that. I could not detect any difference in useful life between this and plain peeled lodgepole and tamarack posts under our conditions. Skip Skip & Christy Hensler THE ROCK GARDEN Newport, WA http://www.povn.com/rock/ |
Wooden 4x4 vs Vinyl or Plastic posts?
There are now on the market pressure-treated rot-resistant woods that do
not have arsenic & copper & are environmentally safe. The only part of a fence that will rot is what comes in contact with the ground, so the more expensive rot-resistant wood need only be posts, the rest can be inexpensive fence boards or pickets or whatever. Wood as a backdrop has a natural beauty & gardens look excellent against natural unpainted wood; some people hasten the "weathered" look by slapping on a coat of vinegar which darkens wood nicely. If the rustic look doesn't appeal, protective whitewashes still reveal woodgrain beauty. Plastic just never duplicates the beauty of wood, plain or whitewashed. Vines cling well to wood, not so well to plastic. However, if it's your plan to paint the whole fence with thick coats of paint it's going to look the same as a plastic fence anyway. In that case might as well go with the plastic lumber, as that'd be environmentally friendly in helping to use up some recycled plastic milkbottles. -paghat the ratgirl -- "Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher. "Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature. -from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers" See the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com/ |
Wooden 4x4 vs Vinyl or Plastic posts?
Norway has several ancient spruce churches, some up to 1100 years old.
Secret is excellent drainage, steep roof slope, and yearly treatments with creosote. MacTech wrote: We're still using lots of 20 - 30 year old wood posts that were hand peeled by my father-in-law and then soaked in creosote. Go with a good wood post. Randy http://ruralroute2.com does anybody have any recommendations which material is cheaper/better in teh long run? plastic, wooden or vinyl posts? any stories to share? thanks dp |
Wooden 4x4 vs Vinyl or Plastic posts?
On Fri, 14 Feb 2003 09:49:14 -0600, Bob Adkins wrote:
On Wed, 12 Feb 2003 10:43:03 -0700, (paghat) wrote: There are now on the market pressure-treated rot-resistant woods that do not have arsenic & copper & are environmentally safe. The only part of a What do they treat them with? Garlic maybe? Boron. Sodium tetraborate/pentaborate/octaborate but the wood must be kept away from water. It's good against termites and fungi where the wood can be kept dry ( as in structural members of a house ). It should not be kept in contact with soil. Everything else that I see has at least copper in it (but no arsenic ) except for the stuff they put on utility poles. That's pentachlorophenol and it is disolved in an oil before being pressed into the wood. |
Wooden 4x4 vs Vinyl or Plastic posts?
In misc.rural dp wrote:
: does anybody have any recommendations which material is cheaper/better : in teh long run? plastic, wooden or vinyl posts? any stories to share? : thanks Actually vinyl is a type of plastic. Advantages of vinyl are that it never needs painting and will never rot. Vinyl is an isulator so electric fencing needs no additional insulators when attached to it. Newer vinyl is highly resistant to UV. Disadvantages are that it may cost more than wood, it's harder to fasten wire fencing to it, and a grass/range fire will melt or burn it. Vinyl posts are usually hollow. Pressure treated wood has the advantage of lower cost (usually) and is widely available. It's easy to nail or staple fencing to it, and it's more resistant to grass fires than vinyl/plastic. Longevity is many years, but eventually it will rot or disintegrate. CCA (chromated copper arsenate; it's green) is being phased-out as a preservative because of environmental concerns; replacement will probably be borate. Although wood it a good insulator when dry, it holds moisture when wet, so electric fencing needs insulator when strung along wood. If you want white, you'll have to paint it periodically. Composite recycled plastic posts are generally expensive and not available everywhere. They're usually solid, and you can nail/staple fencing directly to them. They do not rot and are highly resistant to UV and don't need painting if you like white. They're good insulators, but will probably fare poorly in a grass fire Of course there are other types of posts like steel pipe, T-posts, concrete, and usenet which all have their advantages and disadvantages. Mike |
Wooden 4x4 vs Vinyl or Plastic posts?
In article ,
wrote: On Wed, 12 Feb 2003 10:43:03 -0700, (paghat) wrote: There are now on the market pressure-treated rot-resistant woods that do not have arsenic & copper & are environmentally safe. The only part of a What do they treat them with? Garlic maybe? Bob Most of the alternatives are organic-based formulations & if they migrate out of the wood will (unlike arsenic & chromium) break down in the environment. These formulations typically include one or the other of the following: citrate, amonia, pentachlorophenol, sodium, naphthenate, tebuconazole, & copper azole (this last in the easily obtained "wolmanized" lumber). Most but not all the new formulations still contain copper (& I should have said "do not arsenic & chromium & are environmentally safe"). Copper is not the same hazard as arsenic, though not 101% harmless (even copper pennies are deadly if one gets picky enough about possibilities). Copper "sets" the preservative in a manner that slows down natural degradation of the preservative itself, & the wood; the copper does not migrate to the soil because it bonds molecularly to wood in the heat-pressure process, though in the 60-100 years it may take for the wood to break down if in contact with soil, the copper will eventually enter the environment, just not while the wood is intact. Some of the preservative alternatives are not appropriate for ground-contact (zinc and borate are used mainly in composit wood, & are not safely placed in contact with the environment, but are tyically used in barriered home construction such as under housewrap). Here are the facts about wood treated with arsenic & chromium: http://www.yourlawyer.com/practice/o...Treated%20Wood All vendors of course tell a different story, & have citations of "scientists" the industry personally funded or "research" done in-house & vanity published without peer review. Fact is, it's dangerous, dangerous stuff. The industry is doing a veritable BLITZ of propoganda to keep their sales from evaporating before December 2003, when any CCA wood left in the lumberyard will have to be "safely" destroyed. The indstry facing inevitable legal bans entered into an agreement with the EPA to "voluntarily" stop selling poisoned wood IF the EPA would promise not to place the government's stamp of disapproval on the product. To EPA it was worth getting rid of the terrible stuff so they agreed not to make strong statements against it, & from the industry point of view, EPA's wishywashy posture limits the chances of the pending class action suits costing the industry billions in court. Several years ago the industry talked their way out of being banned (there was a temporary ban) by some first-rate lobbying of congress about how EPA was going to deprive Americans of good jobs, & promising to distribute informative warning sheets with their product. But no wholesaler or retailer ever seriously distributed these warnings, so the industry didn't have to waste trees printing many of them up. Of course plastic lumber as an altenrative is environmentally friendly ONLY because it recycles something that is environmentally catastrophic -- the reality is that plastic is environmentally among the WORST things humans use, first because of the manufacture methods, & second because of the impossibility of safely elminating plastic from the environment. And someday someone may really want to get rid of even those eternal plastic fenceposts, & it won't be safely done on the cheap. So even if you want your fence to be plastic so as to better match your trailer house & that old Ford truck rusting in the grass, you're not seriously doing the environment any favors. If money's no option, & wood won't do, build a fence of art-masonry & wrought iron. Though be warned that cement in foundations or masonry construction can severely alkalinize the environment so maybe we should just stack some rocks loosely.... Some of the alternatives may indeed, over time, & from independent studies rather than industry-generated studies, prove to be themselves problems, probably none, at worst, as big a problem as standard house paints, & so far, my own organic & natural tendencies have not bannished house paint. I do not want aluminum siding & plastic fences, nor will I replace my collection of deadly monkshoods with plastic flowers. I will certainly be watching for independent studies of the organic-formulation pressure treated woods because I'm naturally cynical, but for the time being glad to know arsenic treated woods are being phased out in favor of organic formulations. If I could get the rarer formulations without copper binders I would, but unless some new information indicts the pennies in my piggy bank at levels far greater than has been shown in the past century, I won't religiously avoid formulations with copper the way I always have avoided arsenic treated wood. One of the most credible approaches might be to begin with completley natural cedar or redwood posts, & treat by hand with oil-based preservatives only that portion of the post that goes into a hole. This would maximize the lifespan of the post while minimalizing the overall amount of wood preservative. I already had good fences when I bought the place but I do use a redwood-colored preservative oil on some of the trellises (hand built or purchased), & don't feel I'm harming the environment as I would be if I had been buying arsenic-treated wood. If I were setting posts I would obtain the newer pressure-treated woods that do not have arsenic. Since I make only such things as trellises & arbors, I've found it easy to seek out woods that are naturally rot-resistant (cedars, yellow cypress, redwood) & since I don't worry about insect attack, treat the wood either with nothing or with oil-based anti-mildew dyes. But I wouldn't fear to use the new organic formulations for pressure-treated wood if I needed to build something more substantial like a six-foot fence, deck, or a shed -- I will be making a large pergola either this year or next year, & will probably use very few natural 4x4 posts set on masonry blocks, so even for that won't need treated wood because it won't quite touch the ground, but will still use the mildew-retarding oils. I think it's always wise to be on guard that some of the alternative perservatives will be harmful -- as in the case of naphthenate treated wood, as dangerous as mothballs, could well make it harmful to breathe the air inside the shed, so at least one "alternative" is rather unacceptable). But the truly paranoid will have to forgo housepaint & gasoline while they're at it, & probably just shoot themselves to get it over with, because nothing's 100% certain except death. -paghat -- "Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher. "Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature. -from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers" See the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com/ |
Wooden 4x4 vs Vinyl or Plastic posts?
Michael Bruss wrote: Of course there are other types of posts like steel pipe, T-posts, concrete, and usenet which all have their advantages and disadvantages. Mike Too much rot in usenet posts. Tried inflating them with hot air, to no avail. |
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