"SheBlewHimDidYouBlowHim" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Victor Faraday" wrote in message
. ..
Last night just before bed, I looked out over my deck, and there
over the middle of it, was the most magnificent spider web ever
devised, shining in the spotlight. This wonder appeared perfectly
circular and was about the size--and very much resembled-- a
33 rpm phono record, with very precisely placed circular strands
close together with perfect symmetry. I still am not sure how
this little master builder anchored this creation; must've been the hedge
on one side and the chimney on the other, and maybe the deck; but
all this stuff was a good ways off, and the masterpiece was hanging
a good 8 feet over the deck. Another amazing thing is that we had
a heavy rainstorm not 3 hours earlier, so this beauty was designed and
built in less than 3 hours.

So here we have a creature, with a brain maybe the size of a grain of
sand,
and likely less than a year old, building something any civil engineer
would
show with great pride. I got up to pee around 3 a.m., looked out,
and it was already gone.

--
Vic


oh please, that's not evidence of god, but show me a water stain in the
shape of the virgin mary,
or jesus's likeness on a slice of bread, now there's a real honest to
goodness all-powerful sky pixie for you.


Careful, or you will have Virgil and Sniper and friends on your case for
showing too much sarcasm towards their hypothetical ('might be') sky pixie.

Now we've got Free Lunch joining them in arguing _ad ignorantiam_ that there
might be a god because there is no proof the hypothesis (the 'might be'
theist conjecture) is false, then denying that is what he is arguing! Go
figure.

Victor Faraday wrote:
Last night just before bed, I looked out over my deck, and there
over the middle of it, was the most magnificent spider web ever
devised, shining in the spotlight. This wonder appeared perfectly
circular and was about the size--and very much resembled-- a
33 rpm phono record, with very precisely placed circular strands
close together with perfect symmetry. I still am not sure how
this little master builder anchored this creation; must've been the hedge
on one side and the chimney on the other, and maybe the deck; but
all this stuff was a good ways off, and the masterpiece was hanging
a good 8 feet over the deck. Another amazing thing is that we had
a heavy rainstorm not 3 hours earlier, so this beauty was designed and
built in less than 3 hours.

Well... the design is probably 400 million years old and took tens of
millions of generations of spiders to perfect - but yeah its still
cool.

So here we have a creature, with a brain maybe the size of a grain of sand,

So about the same as a fundamentalist christian then?

and likely less than a year old, building something any civil engineer would
show with great pride. I got up to pee around 3 a.m., looked out,
and it was already gone.

So...
Spider webs are cool therefore... Yahweh exists?

Brilliant!!
Ok - I am convinced - I renonce my evil atheist ways - Halleluya!

Mark.

Dan J.S. wrote:
"Victor Faraday" wrote in message
snip argumentum aracnophilia

My dad, who is a chemical engineer, had a hard time believing in God.

Then... he fell on his head?

Then
he started studying quantum physics, and other complex sciences (he has a
PhD). He has turned extremely religious.

Sorry for his loss.

Claims there is no way that
'accidents' created the things that he studies - especially things on atomic
levels. As a matter of fact, this is not so uncommon amongst scientists.
They somehow get a lot more religious the deeper in science they get. Very
interesting stuff.

Yes it is.

Mark.

Victor Faraday wrote:
"Dan J.S." wrote in message
...

My dad, who is a chemical engineer, had a hard time believing in God. Then
he started studying quantum physics, and other complex sciences (he has a
PhD). He has turned extremely religious. Claims there is no way that
'accidents' created the things that he studies - especially things on
atomic levels. As a matter of fact, this is not so uncommon amongst
scientists.

I've got an undergrad degree in physics myself, and I concur. Religion
is not science and never will be. It is far beyond that.

They somehow get a lot more religious the deeper in science they get.

Fantastic design without designer is a harder thing to buy into than
belief in an Almighty alpha and omega.

For you - you don't get to speak for anyone else.
Which is a very good thing.

These atheist types are
trying hard to reply in clever & witty ways

Actually some of us find it quite easy and naural.
I think I smell jelousy.

but they remind me
of hayseeds who see priceless works of art as miscellaneous
smearing of paint on a canvas.

If only you had the brains evolution gave a spider...

Mark.

On Thu, 17 Aug 2006 09:33:58 -0400, Victor Faraday wrote:

Last night just before bed, I looked out over my deck, and there
over the middle of it, was the most magnificent spider web ever
devised, shining in the spotlight. This wonder appeared perfectly
circular and was about the size--and very much resembled-- a
33 rpm phono record, with very precisely placed circular strands
close together with perfect symmetry. I still am not sure how
this little master builder anchored this creation; must've been the hedge
on one side and the chimney on the other, and maybe the deck; but
all this stuff was a good ways off, and the masterpiece was hanging
a good 8 feet over the deck. Another amazing thing is that we had
a heavy rainstorm not 3 hours earlier, so this beauty was designed and
built in less than 3 hours.

Wrong. It was just _built_ in less than three hours. It wasn't
"designed" at all. That organism was executing a biological program
originating in a combination of its genetic heritage and environmental
influences. Cool, huh?

Now, why the _****_ did you crosspost this to alt.atheism?
--
Frank Mayhar http://www.exit.com/
Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/
http://www.exit.com/blog/frank/

On Thu, 17 Aug 2006 15:55:21 -0400, Victor Faraday wrote:
Fantastic design without designer is a harder thing to buy into than
belief in an Almighty alpha and omega.

Only if you're blindly ignorant.

How, why did you crosspost this to alt.atheism, and having done so, how
can you possibly be surprised at the response?
--
Frank Mayhar http://www.exit.com/
Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/
http://www.exit.com/blog/frank/

SheBlewHimDidYouBlowHim wrote:
"Victor Faraday" wrote in message
. ..
Last night just before bed, I looked out over my deck, and there
over the middle of it, was the most magnificent spider web ever
devised, shining in the spotlight. This wonder appeared perfectly
circular and was about the size--and very much resembled-- a
33 rpm phono record, with very precisely placed circular strands
close together with perfect symmetry. I still am not sure how
this little master builder anchored this creation; must've been the
hedge on one side and the chimney on the other, and maybe the deck;
but all this stuff was a good ways off, and the masterpiece was hanging
a good 8 feet over the deck. Another amazing thing is that we had
a heavy rainstorm not 3 hours earlier, so this beauty was designed
and built in less than 3 hours.

So here we have a creature, with a brain maybe the size of a grain of
sand,
and likely less than a year old, building something any civil
engineer would
show with great pride. I got up to pee around 3 a.m., looked out,
and it was already gone.

All that so the spider can kill and eat things.
I wonder how the moth feels about it.
And just think, 6000 years ago, when there was no death, the spider used to
catch flying grapes in the web.

In article ,
"Sheikh Saltpeter, aka Septic" wrote:

"SheBlewHimDidYouBlowHim" wrote in message
ink.net...

oh please, that's not evidence of god, but show me a water stain in the
shape of the virgin mary,
or jesus's likeness on a slice of bread, now there's a real honest to
goodness all-powerful sky pixie for you.


Careful, or you will have Virgil and Sniper and friends on your case for
showing too much sarcasm towards their hypothetical ('might be') sky pixie.

As "sky pixies" are entirely an invention of Soppy Septic, he, as their
sole inventor, would be the only one to complain about other's use of
them.

On Thu, 17 Aug 2006 22:37:44 GMT, "Witziges Rätsel"
wrote:

Then, who designed the designer?

Good question and makes the point that there was no FIRST designer.
Everything comes directly from the previous moment of itself. In
Buddhists terms it's called Mind Stream, or Mental Continuum. It's
pure mind and encompasses everything. WE are the creators of our
world, each of our worlds.

Can you present any evidence that everything comes from the
previous moment of itself?
Can you present any evidence that we are creators of our world(s)?
Aren't you simply saying people imagine everything?

Well, you can prove it yourself. Aren't you now reading this, and
didn't a previous moment happen, now another, now another? Time/space
continuum. It's pretty popular among the quantum physicists.

In Buddhism, everything we see, do, things done to us, by us is all
based on previous lifetimes and how our karma ripens in this lifetime.
So, with each life, provided I have enough merit to take a human
rebirth, we come closer and closer to being able to reach an
enlightened state and no longer have karma, the karma is fully
purified after many lifetimes of practice, meditation, etc.

I am indeed saying that everything is void of independant arising.
Everything is dependant on previous moments of itself, and is empty.
Emptiness is a huge part of Buddhism's delight. I'll give an example
of something they did in the film "Little Buddha." A Lama was trying
to explain emptiness to a man. He filled the cup with tea then broke
the cup aka the vessel for the tea. After the cup is broken, it is no
longer a cup. But the tea is still tea. Contents and container. The
container changes, but the contents do not.

This is a basic belief and yes it does require a relative amount of
faith, but it's pretty much in line with quantum physics. If you wipe
the tea up off the floor with a towel, and then wring it out, you
still have tea.

How are things beginningless? Well, can you trace back your every
thought and every action you did in just one day? In one hour? I
mean every single thought, glimpse, notion, action, every snap of a
finger etc. Buddhists say there are 64 thoughts to snapping your
fingers.

So look at something inanimate. Those examples are also
beginningless. A simple one would be a rubber gasket. First, a
person has to become interested in growing rubber trees, then then
need the seeds or plants which are delivered by a truck, driven by a
driver, who needs gas, which comes from refineries, which comes from
oil wells, which have pipes built by people and the driver uses a
truck, how many people were responsible for the building of the truck,
each part, machinists, assemblers, engineers, designers, who makes the
glass, how is that delivered...and this is a HUGELY brief explanation
that everything is absolutely dependant on something else and the
previous moment of itself. Else, we'd all be here for a moment then
gone. By the time the two dollar gasket reaches its final
destination, one is baffled that it doesn't cost a million dollars!

Look at what goes into a simple pencil, trace it all back to the acorn
if you can. The pencil is 25 cents. How? Amazing.

So this theory is certainly more tangible than saying a man in the sky
called god created everything. This method come about by deep thought
and meditation, self exploration, etc.

Good question and makes the point that there was no FIRST designer.
Everything comes directly from the previous moment of itself. In
Buddhists terms it's called Mind Stream, or Mental Continuum. It's
pure mind and encompasses everything. WE are the creators of our
world, each of our worlds.

Can you present any evidence that everything comes from the
previous moment of itself?
Can you present any evidence that we are creators of our world(s)?
Aren't you simply saying people imagine everything?

Well, you can prove it yourself. Aren't you now reading this, and
didn't a previous moment happen, now another, now another? Time/space
continuum. It's pretty popular among the quantum physicists.

I disagree with those physicists; time is an illusion, not a place, a
thing, or a dimension. The past no longer exists. The future does not exist
yet. Humans think in terms of time only because we can remember the
past and deduce and evaluate evidence of past events.

In Buddhism, everything we see, do, things done to us, by us is all
based on previous lifetimes and how our karma ripens in this lifetime.
So, with each life, provided I have enough merit to take a human
rebirth, we come closer and closer to being able to reach an
enlightened state and no longer have karma, the karma is fully
purified after many lifetimes of practice, meditation, etc.

I think you've mixed Buddhism with Hinduism. But I guess
you're allowed.

I am indeed saying that everything is void of independant arising.
Everything is dependant on previous moments of itself, and is empty.
Emptiness is a huge part of Buddhism's delight. I'll give an example
of something they did in the film "Little Buddha." A Lama was trying
to explain emptiness to a man. He filled the cup with tea then broke
the cup aka the vessel for the tea. After the cup is broken, it is no
longer a cup. But the tea is still tea. Contents and container. The
container changes, but the contents do not.
This is a basic belief and yes it does require a relative amount of
faith, but it's pretty much in line with quantum physics. If you wipe
the tea up off the floor with a towel, and then wring it out, you
still have tea.

And the cup is still a cup, just broken. It can be repaired. Apparently
Buddhists think anecdotes about common things have some kind of profound
meaning and are explanations, but they're not.

How are things beginningless? Well, can you trace back your every
thought and every action you did in just one day? In one hour? I
mean every single thought, glimpse, notion, action, every snap of a
finger etc.

Again, time's an illusion. And memory, for whatever reason, is faulty.

Buddhists say there are 64 thoughts to snapping your
fingers.

People can say anything.

So look at something inanimate. Those examples are also
beginningless. A simple one would be a rubber gasket. First, a
person has to become interested in growing rubber trees, then then
need the seeds or plants which are delivered by a truck, driven by a
driver, who needs gas, which comes from refineries, which comes from
oil wells, which have pipes built by people and the driver uses a
truck, how many people were responsible for the building of the truck,
each part, machinists, assemblers, engineers, designers, who makes the
glass, how is that delivered...and this is a HUGELY brief explanation
that everything is absolutely dependant on something else and the
previous moment of itself. Else, we'd all be here for a moment then
gone.

Exactly my point: we are here for just a moment. Only "now"
really exists.

By the time the two dollar gasket reaches its final
destination, one is baffled that it doesn't cost a million dollars!
Look at what goes into a simple pencil, trace it all back to the acorn
if you can. The pencil is 25 cents. How? Amazing.
So this theory is certainly more tangible than saying a man in the sky
called god created everything. This method come about by deep thought
and meditation, self exploration, etc.

Deducing that things which happened in the past affect this
moment or the future is not very amazing. It's obvious; no meditation
and exploration is necessary.
And it's obvious there are no gods.

On Fri, 18 Aug 2006 14:52:11 GMT, "Witziges Rätsel"
wrote:


In Buddhism, everything we see, do, things done to us, by us is all
based on previous lifetimes and how our karma ripens in this lifetime.
So, with each life, provided I have enough merit to take a human
rebirth, we come closer and closer to being able to reach an
enlightened state and no longer have karma, the karma is fully
purified after many lifetimes of practice, meditation, etc.

I think you've mixed Buddhism with Hinduism. But I guess
you're allowed.

No I didn't. I am a student of Lama Zopa Rinpoche and Venerable
Robina for years now. I've been to His Holiness' teachings and I am a
practitioner. This is how we view things. Maybe you are not aware
that Buddha Shakyamuni (historical Buddha) is from India and was a
Hindu practitioner until he found The Middle Way.

I am indeed saying that everything is void of independant arising.
Everything is dependant on previous moments of itself, and is empty.
Emptiness is a huge part of Buddhism's delight. I'll give an example
of something they did in the film "Little Buddha." A Lama was trying
to explain emptiness to a man. He filled the cup with tea then broke
the cup aka the vessel for the tea. After the cup is broken, it is no
longer a cup. But the tea is still tea. Contents and container. The
container changes, but the contents do not.
This is a basic belief and yes it does require a relative amount of
faith, but it's pretty much in line with quantum physics. If you wipe
the tea up off the floor with a towel, and then wring it out, you
still have tea.

And the cup is still a cup, just broken. It can be repaired. Apparently
Buddhists think anecdotes about common things have some kind of profound
meaning and are explanations, but they're not.

No, it is no longer a cup because it must function as a cup to be one.
Because it is empty of inherent traits, it is now a bunch of pieces of
broken clay. It is no longer a cup, but the tea is still tea. Our
minds are the tea. It goes from vessel to vessel. Everyone dies, but
nobody is dead.

How are things beginningless? Well, can you trace back your every
thought and every action you did in just one day? In one hour? I
mean every single thought, glimpse, notion, action, every snap of a
finger etc.

Again, time's an illusion. And memory, for whatever reason, is faulty.

So your answer is no. You cannot. Time is a measure. Eventually
when people become fully awake, time is absolutely an illusion. In
life as a lay person, someone who is not enlightened still have a
measure of time even if it is illusionary. Actually, the term Buddha
used is delusion. We delude ourselves. This is all the pollution we
are cleaning out when we meditate.

Does water look clear? It's H2O, right? Not really. All water has
a lot more in it that hydrogen and oxygen but we don't call the
pollution H2OP45. We're still deluded and believe it is water, clear
and without any other element.

Buddhists say there are 64 thoughts to snapping your
fingers.

People can say anything.

I guess you are just cranky and unwilling to believe anything nor are
you willing to consider another way of thinking or experiencing.
..
So look at something inanimate. Those examples are also
beginningless. A simple one would be a rubber gasket. First, a
person has to become interested in growing rubber trees, then then
need the seeds or plants which are delivered by a truck, driven by a
driver, who needs gas, which comes from refineries, which comes from
oil wells, which have pipes built by people and the driver uses a
truck, how many people were responsible for the building of the truck,
each part, machinists, assemblers, engineers, designers, who makes the
glass, how is that delivered...and this is a HUGELY brief explanation
that everything is absolutely dependant on something else and the
previous moment of itself. Else, we'd all be here for a moment then
gone.

Exactly my point: we are here for just a moment. Only "now"
really exists.

Nothing I said is in opposition to your contention. Each moment
coming from must then come from a prior moment in order for it to be
thrust into this moment. I agree there is no past, no present.

By the time the two dollar gasket reaches its final
destination, one is baffled that it doesn't cost a million dollars!
Look at what goes into a simple pencil, trace it all back to the acorn
if you can. The pencil is 25 cents. How? Amazing.
So this theory is certainly more tangible than saying a man in the sky
called god created everything. This method come about by deep thought
and meditation, self exploration, etc.


Deducing that things which happened in the past affect this
moment or the future is not very amazing. It's obvious; no meditation
and exploration is necessary.
And it's obvious there are no gods.

So you are saying you are enlightened? No exploration is necessary?
How about someone who never saw a television or read a book. How do
they draw a conclusion? Self exploration is always necessary for
growth. But, I am coming from a different component than you are.
Mine is spirituality, yours is scientific (or so it seems). I am an
atheist, no doubt about it. That doesn't make me void of beliefs or
faith.

On Thu, 17 Aug 2006 08:33:58 -0400, "Victor Faraday"
wrote:
- Refer:
Last night just before bed, I looked out over my deck, and there
over the middle of it, was the most magnificent spider web ever
devised, shining in the spotlight. This wonder appeared perfectly
circular and was about the size--and very much resembled-- a
33 rpm phono record, with very precisely placed circular strands
close together with perfect symmetry. I still am not sure how
this little master builder anchored this creation; must've been the hedge
on one side and the chimney on the other, and maybe the deck; but
all this stuff was a good ways off, and the masterpiece was hanging
a good 8 feet over the deck. Another amazing thing is that we had
a heavy rainstorm not 3 hours earlier, so this beauty was designed and
built in less than 3 hours.

So here we have a creature, with a brain maybe the size of a grain of sand,
and likely less than a year old, building something any civil engineer would
show with great pride. I got up to pee around 3 a.m., looked out,
and it was already gone.

1. You saw something awesome.
2. You cannot personally understand it.
3. Therefore there is an invisible old man in the sky.

--

On Thu, 17 Aug 2006 10:46:19 -0400, "ZenIsWhen"
wrote:
- Refer:
"Victor Faraday" wrote in message
...
Last night just before bed, I looked out over my deck, and there
over the middle of it, was the most magnificent spider web ever
devised, shining in the spotlight. This wonder appeared perfectly
circular and was about the size--and very much resembled-- a
33 rpm phono record, with very precisely placed circular strands
close together with perfect symmetry. I still am not sure how
this little master builder anchored this creation; must've been the hedge
on one side and the chimney on the other, and maybe the deck; but
all this stuff was a good ways off, and the masterpiece was hanging
a good 8 feet over the deck. Another amazing thing is that we had
a heavy rainstorm not 3 hours earlier, so this beauty was designed and
built in less than 3 hours.

So here we have a creature, with a brain maybe the size of a grain of
sand,
and likely less than a year old, building something any civil engineer
would
show with great pride. I got up to pee around 3 a.m., looked out,
and it was already gone.

--
Vic

All I note, which is also the REALITY of the thing, evidence of a spider and
a web.
Obvioiusly this spider, "with a brain maybe the size of a grain of sand" has
one over on you!

It's not hard to gain a mental edge over the standard Christian.
I am not surprised that a tiny spider managed it.

--

On Thu, 17 Aug 2006 23:15:34 GMT, "Tough Tonto"
wrote:
- Refer: qM6Fg.70614$zc2.44240@trnddc06
Once upon a time in alt.atheism, dear sweet Victor Faraday
) made the light shine upon us with this:

You sound like that video with Kirk Cameron and his sidekick explaining
how
bananas were created to perfectly fit into a human hand. LOL. I can name
a few other things that were probably not created to fit into a human
hand,
but nonetheless do.

Was there a companion video demonstrating the cucumber's design
and fit in relation to girls? What a clever old perv that "creator" is!

Don't worry: it's "coming".

--

On Thu, 17 Aug 2006 14:55:21 -0400, "Victor Faraday"
wrote:
- Refer:

"Dan J.S." wrote in message
...

My dad, who is a chemical engineer, had a hard time believing in God. Then
he started studying quantum physics, and other complex sciences (he has a
PhD). He has turned extremely religious. Claims there is no way that
'accidents' created the things that he studies - especially things on
atomic levels. As a matter of fact, this is not so uncommon amongst
scientists.

I've got an undergrad degree in physics myself, and I concur. Religion
is not science and never will be. It is far beyond that.

They somehow get a lot more religious the deeper in science they get.

Fantastic design without designer is a harder thing to buy into than
belief in an Almighty alpha and omega. These atheist types are

Bullshit.

trying hard to reply in clever & witty ways, but they remind me
of hayseeds who see priceless works of art as miscellaneous
smearing of paint on a canvas.

More lies and bullshit.

I thought you christbots had rules against "bearing false witness"?

--