On Thu, 17 Aug 2006 11:33:50 -0400, "Samuel W. Heywood"
wrote:
- Refer: .org
On Thu, 17 Aug 2006, Chris H. Fleming wrote:

Samuel W. Heywood wrote:
On Thu, 17 Aug 2006, Tough Tonto wrote:

Last night just before bed, I looked out over my deck, and there
over the middle of it, was the most magnificent spider web ever
devised, shining in the spotlight. This wonder appeared perfectly
circular and was about the size--and very much resembled-- a
33 rpm phono record, with very precisely placed circular strands
close together with perfect symmetry. I still am not sure how
this little master builder anchored this creation; must've been the hedge
on one side and the chimney on the other, and maybe the deck; but
all this stuff was a good ways off, and the masterpiece was hanging
a good 8 feet over the deck. Another amazing thing is that we had
a heavy rainstorm not 3 hours earlier, so this beauty was designed and
built in less than 3 hours. So here we have a creature, with a brain maybe
the size of a grain of sand, and likely less than a year old, building
something any civil engineer would show with great pride. I got up to
pee around 3 a.m., looked out, and it was already gone.

Wonderful, but what does a nice spider web have to do with
some people saying "there's no God"? Do you think spiders somehow
resemble little gods?

He is making the point that spiders are superbly intelligent
designers, despite their very tiny brains.

... so the gods have tiny brains?

I just knew that some very smart people would draw that conclusion.

I just knew that one very stupid person would not answer the question.

--

On Sat, 19 Aug 2006 11:36:03 +0930, Michael Gray
wrote:

1. You saw something awesome.
2. You cannot personally understand it.
3. Therefore there is an invisible old man in the sky.

Push to shove, whatever enriches someone's spirituality or kindness or
consciousness is a good thing. I don't believe in a creator, but I
have no problem with those who do. And orb spiders are indeed
awesome. I don't believe a god created them, but if someone else does
and it touches their heart making them a better person, it's great.
Don't you think?

"Michael Gray" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 17 Aug 2006 11:33:50 -0400, "Samuel W. Heywood"
wrote:
- Refer: .org
On Thu, 17 Aug 2006, Chris H. Fleming wrote:

Samuel W. Heywood wrote:
On Thu, 17 Aug 2006, Tough Tonto wrote:

Last night just before bed, I looked out over my deck, and there
over the middle of it, was the most magnificent spider web ever
devised, shining in the spotlight. This wonder appeared perfectly
circular and was about the size--and very much resembled-- a
33 rpm phono record, with very precisely placed circular strands
close together with perfect symmetry. I still am not sure how
this little master builder anchored this creation; must've been the
hedge
on one side and the chimney on the other, and maybe the deck; but
all this stuff was a good ways off, and the masterpiece was hanging
a good 8 feet over the deck. Another amazing thing is that we had
a heavy rainstorm not 3 hours earlier, so this beauty was designed
and
built in less than 3 hours. So here we have a creature, with a brain
maybe
the size of a grain of sand, and likely less than a year old,
building
something any civil engineer would show with great pride. I got up to
pee around 3 a.m., looked out, and it was already gone.

Wonderful, but what does a nice spider web have to do with
some people saying "there's no God"? Do you think spiders somehow
resemble little gods?

He is making the point that spiders are superbly intelligent
designers, despite their very tiny brains.

... so the gods have tiny brains?

I just knew that some very smart people would draw that conclusion.

I just knew that one very stupid person would not answer the question.

--

Hmmmm. It *is* amazing to see nature at work. In the case of a spider and
it's web: seems pretty 'natural' to me. But then, some people would see the
'miracle' of the construction of a spider-web as proof that Jesus walked on
water, raised people from the dead, and in another 'guise', created the
universe. Now that's what I call a *leap* of faith.

Greywolf

Greywolf "Michael Gray" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 17 Aug 2006 11:33:50 -0400, "Samuel W. Heywood"
wrote:
- Refer:
On Thu, 17 Aug 2006, Chris H. Fleming wrote:

Samuel W. Heywood wrote:
On Thu, 17 Aug 2006, Tough Tonto wrote:

Last night just before bed, I looked out over my deck, and there
over the middle of it, was the most magnificent spider web ever
devised, shining in the spotlight. This wonder appeared perfectly
circular and was about the size--and very much resembled-- a
33 rpm phono record, with very precisely placed circular strands
close together with perfect symmetry. I still am not sure how
this little master builder anchored this creation; must've been the
hedge
on one side and the chimney on the other, and maybe the deck; but
all this stuff was a good ways off, and the masterpiece was hanging
a good 8 feet over the deck. Another amazing thing is that we had
a heavy rainstorm not 3 hours earlier, so this beauty was designed
and
built in less than 3 hours. So here we have a creature, with a brain
maybe
the size of a grain of sand, and likely less than a year old,
building
something any civil engineer would show with great pride. I got up to
pee around 3 a.m., looked out, and it was already gone.

Wonderful, but what does a nice spider web have to do with
some people saying "there's no God"? Do you think spiders somehow
resemble little gods?

He is making the point that spiders are superbly intelligent
designers, despite their very tiny brains.

... so the gods have tiny brains?

I just knew that some very smart people would draw that conclusion.

I just knew that one very stupid person would not answer the question.

--

Hmmmm. It *is* amazing to see nature at work. In the case of a spider and
it's web: seems pretty 'natural' to me. But then, some people would see the
'miracle' of the construction of a spider-web as proof that Jesus walked on

creation of a spiders web or people having surgery and being brought back from deaths
door there are always those that believe and those that dont in the existence of god or
a holy being and its up to them what their beliefs are.
i think one of the other points being made about the spiders web is a lot of times
people are in such a rush that they dont know how to slow own and enjoy what is
around them in life.
like the spider and its web for example how many people would really take the time to
watch a spider spinning a web or to stop and see how beautiful it is.
what about taking a look at hore frost or dew on trees or beautiful flowers really close up
or sitting in a park or anywhere else really watching nature or things around them.
whether there is a god or not is what people are focusing on but what about the other
side of things like when is the last time that u slowed down and really took a look at
things around u not in general but really in depth .
cyaaaaaa, sockiescat.

On Thu, 17 Aug 2006 14:55:21 -0400, Victor Faraday wrote:


"Dan J.S." wrote in message
...

My dad, who is a chemical engineer, had a hard time believing in God.
Then he started studying quantum physics, and other complex sciences (he
has a PhD). He has turned extremely religious. Claims there is no way
that 'accidents' created the things that he studies - especially things
on atomic levels. As a matter of fact, this is not so uncommon amongst
scientists.

I've got an undergrad degree in physics myself, and I concur. Religion is
not science and never will be. It is far beyond that.

They somehow get a lot more religious the deeper in science they get.


The most accomplished scientists tend to be less religious than "average"
scientists, who are, in turn, less religious than non-scientists.

Fantastic design without designer is a harder thing to buy into than
belief in an Almighty alpha and omega. These atheist types are trying
hard to reply in clever & witty ways, but they remind me of hayseeds who
see priceless works of art as miscellaneous smearing of paint on a
canvas.

No, actually, imagining a Designer with inscrutable, magical properties is
a lame way to "explain" something that is difficult to explain otherwise.
We are all still waiting for an explanation of the Designer. Scientists
like finding explanations; non-scientists, particularly theists, like
things to have explanations. If there are no *good* explanations, a poor
one will do.

--
MarkA
(this space accidentally filled in)

Samuel W. Heywood wrote:
On Thu, 17 Aug 2006, Chris H. Fleming wrote:

Samuel W. Heywood wrote:
On Thu, 17 Aug 2006, Tough Tonto wrote:

Last night just before bed, I looked out over my deck, and there
over the middle of it, was the most magnificent spider web ever
devised, shining in the spotlight. This wonder appeared perfectly
circular and was about the size--and very much resembled-- a
33 rpm phono record, with very precisely placed circular strands
close together with perfect symmetry. I still am not sure how
this little master builder anchored this creation; must've been the hedge
on one side and the chimney on the other, and maybe the deck; but
all this stuff was a good ways off, and the masterpiece was hanging
a good 8 feet over the deck. Another amazing thing is that we had
a heavy rainstorm not 3 hours earlier, so this beauty was designed and
built in less than 3 hours. So here we have a creature, with a brain maybe
the size of a grain of sand, and likely less than a year old, building
something any civil engineer would show with great pride. I got up to
pee around 3 a.m., looked out, and it was already gone.

Wonderful, but what does a nice spider web have to do with
some people saying "there's no God"? Do you think spiders somehow
resemble little gods?

He is making the point that spiders are superbly intelligent
designers, despite their very tiny brains.

... so the gods have tiny brains?

I just knew that some very smart people would draw that conclusion.


The universe is so complex, I would guess the gods' brains are so tiny
as to be completely nonexistent.

Jangchub wrote:
On Sat, 19 Aug 2006 11:36:03 +0930, Michael Gray
wrote:

1. You saw something awesome.
2. You cannot personally understand it.
3. Therefore there is an invisible old man in the sky.

Push to shove, whatever enriches someone's spirituality or kindness or
consciousness is a good thing. I don't believe in a creator, but I
have no problem with those who do. And orb spiders are indeed
awesome. I don't believe a god created them, but if someone else does
and it touches their heart making them a better person, it's great.
Don't you think?


Do you still say that when they fly planes into buildings?

"MarkA" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 17 Aug 2006 14:55:21 -0400, Victor Faraday wrote:


"Dan J.S." wrote in message
...

My dad, who is a chemical engineer, had a hard time believing in God.
Then he started studying quantum physics, and other complex sciences (he
has a PhD). He has turned extremely religious. Claims there is no way
that 'accidents' created the things that he studies - especially things
on atomic levels. As a matter of fact, this is not so uncommon amongst
scientists.

I've got an undergrad degree in physics myself, and I concur. Religion
is
not science and never will be. It is far beyond that.

They somehow get a lot more religious the deeper in science they get.


The most accomplished scientists tend to be less religious than "average"
scientists, who are, in turn, less religious than non-scientists.

Fantastic design without designer is a harder thing to buy into than
belief in an Almighty alpha and omega. These atheist types are trying
hard to reply in clever & witty ways, but they remind me of hayseeds who
see priceless works of art as miscellaneous smearing of paint on a
canvas.

The god believers claim that god created the world and everything in it. He
is all loving, all caring and all powerful creator of man in his image.



Because the world is so magnificent and complex it had to have a creator. By
this same logic, god has to be even more powerful and complex and would have
to have a creator. Complexity in no way is proof or evidence of a god
creator.



Supposedly man after he dies lives on in gods eternal heaven in eternal
happiness.



If this is true, why did he create sin and punishment on Earth? Why did he
create Hell? Why not create a world with men that are motivated to be all
caring and loving beings, just like him, with no desire to be selfish,
greedy and mean?



Religious fanatics claim that man has chosen to be evil because of his ‘free
will’. This is totally specious. ‘Free will’ does no imply or require evil
conduct.



free will n. 1. The ability or discretion to choose; free choice: chose to
remain behind of my own free will. 2. The power, attributed especially to
human beings, of making free choices that are unconstrained by external
circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.



A good benevolent god could have created man as a loving caring creature
with free will but without any desire or ability to commit evil.

He already created other limitations on man’s ‘free will’.



He created hunger pains to force man to eat and drink? He created
suffocation panic to force man to breathe? And a powerful sex drive to force
man to procreate? (Frequently in excess of mans ability to feed and care for
his creations!)



Then why create greed and selfishness which encourages man to steel, lie,
subjugate and even kill other men?



This is supposedly to keep man in line and force him to follow god’s wishes
and commands. This is characteristic of a dictator and slave master not the
characteristics of an all loving and caring god.



Why does this all powerful creator, all loving and caring intelligent
designer, create Plagues, Tsunamis, Tornadoes, Volcanic Eruptions, Wars,
Cancers and hundreds of debilitating diseases and serious body malfunctions?
Why does he permit millions of both young and old to starve to death or die
of miserable diseases? Why punish millions of INNOCENT CHILDREN in this
horrible way?


There is a parasitic worm in West Africa that bores through the eyes of
children and causes total blindness for the rest of their lives. This is the
work of an all caring and loving god???


Why does this all powerful and caring god permit totally “innocent children”
to die at birth? Or worse, be born lacking eyesight, a fully developed
brain, deaf and dumb, missing limbs etc.? Why are some born idiots and
others with super intelligence? Why are some born into wealth and others
pauper poor? Why are his human creations designed to deteriorate into a
miserable and devastating old age?



Why did this all powerful and loving creator create things like sharks,
jelly fish, octopus, lions, tigers, rhinoceros, poisonous snakes, stinging
and poisonous insects, poisonous plants etc.? Why did this caring benevolent
god create animals (including man) that need to painfully kill and eat other
animals to survive?



World War I claimed 9,000,000 lives of people of many religious faiths.

World II indiscriminately claimed over 20,000,000 lives of people of all
ages and religious faiths, plus a vast destruction of property and more
millions maimed
for life.

The recent Asian Tsunami has claimed the lives of 250,000 men, women and
children of all religious persuasions. Over 100,000 of these were totally
innocent children!

There were three major epidemics of the Bubonic Plaque - in the 6th, 14th.
and 17th centuries. The death toll was over 137 million men, women and
totally innocent children.

The influenza of 1918-1919 killed at least 25 million men, women and
innocent children indiscriminately.



Diseases like malaria, AIDS, tuberculosis, etc. maim and kill millions
indiscriminately every year. More millions die of starvation and
malnutrition.

These afflicted the young and old, atheists and those of all religious
persuasions.



Meanwhile MAN, not god, has developed defenses and cures for hundreds of
serious diseases. Man has learned to create shelter, heat and cooling,
purify water, world wide electronic communications, power and transportation
systems including flying through the air.


Perhaps your loving and caring god is actually a cruel, heartless, mean and
torturing tyrant. If he treats us so cruelly during life, why do you think
he will let us enjoy peace and happiness eternally in his Heaven after
death? And why does he keep all this a secret by preventing communication
with our dead parents, siblings and friends?



If there is a god that created the Universe, he is obviously not an
all-caring and benevolent god. Nor is he an “Intelligent Designer”. The
objective evidence is that, if there is a god creator, he has NO concern
about the welfare of the creatures on Earth.



The objective evidence is that no god created man but quite the opposite;
that man created gods!

On 19 Aug 2006 12:00:00 -0700, "Chris H. Fleming"
wrote:

Jangchub wrote:
On Sat, 19 Aug 2006 11:36:03 +0930, Michael Gray
wrote:

1. You saw something awesome.
2. You cannot personally understand it.
3. Therefore there is an invisible old man in the sky.

Push to shove, whatever enriches someone's spirituality or kindness or
consciousness is a good thing. I don't believe in a creator, but I
have no problem with those who do. And orb spiders are indeed
awesome. I don't believe a god created them, but if someone else does
and it touches their heart making them a better person, it's great.
Don't you think?


Do you still say that when they fly planes into buildings?

I'm not sure I understand. Would I say what?

I am a native New Yorker. I don't live there any more, but everyone I
know does. While watching the first tower, then seeing the second
plane as it drove through the second tower I didn't know what to day.
I remember saying: what the **** was that.

It was an unimanaged horror for everyone involved. I cried and got
very quiet.

Jangchub wrote:
On 19 Aug 2006 12:00:00 -0700, "Chris H. Fleming"
wrote:

Jangchub wrote:
On Sat, 19 Aug 2006 11:36:03 +0930, Michael Gray
wrote:

1. You saw something awesome.
2. You cannot personally understand it.
3. Therefore there is an invisible old man in the sky.

Push to shove, whatever enriches someone's spirituality or kindness or
consciousness is a good thing. I don't believe in a creator, but I
have no problem with those who do. And orb spiders are indeed
awesome. I don't believe a god created them, but if someone else does
and it touches their heart making them a better person, it's great.
Don't you think?


Do you still say that when they fly planes into buildings?

I'm not sure I understand. Would I say what?

I am a native New Yorker. I don't live there any more, but everyone I
know does. While watching the first tower, then seeing the second
plane as it drove through the second tower I didn't know what to day.
I remember saying: what the **** was that.

It was an unimanaged horror for everyone involved. I cried and got
very quiet.


I often hear people say "it's not hurting anybody" or "it makes them
happy" when refering to irrational beliefs. Say something mundane like
a person calling psychic hotlines. It doesn't hurt anybody directly. I
used to feel this way.

But there are evil things people do that can not be rationalized by
anything other than the unbelievable. Flying a plane into a building
one extreme. Or even the minority of Americans who believe God comes
down from his thrown and magically injects a human soul into the zygote
when the sperm and egg unite, so they forbid life saving research,
because that would inconvenience the zygote's soul.

By tolerating mundane irrationality, we create a environment where
threatening irrationality can flourish.

On Thu, 17 Aug 2006 20:46:32 +0000, Cary Kittrell wrote:

In article Xns982284D935994vicmanŽ.196.97.136 Uncle Vic
writes:

Once upon a time in alt.atheism, dear sweet Victor Faraday
) made the light shine upon us with this:

Fantastic design without designer is a harder thing to buy into than
belief in an Almighty alpha and omega. These atheist types are
trying hard to reply in clever & witty ways, but they remind me of
hayseeds who see priceless works of art as miscellaneous smearing of
paint on a canvas.

One must believe something is a design before he can designate a
designer. Take the human body, for example. Perfect in every way. Or
is it? If we were designed, why did the designer build in a
self-destruct module known as the appendix, which serves no purpose
other than to become inflamed and destroy us? And what can be said of a
designer whose design fails during the critical stage of reproduction?
A designer (described by worshipers as perfect in every way) that allows
horrible birth defects to happen is either a monster, or a figment of
your imagination.



And beyond that, the Intelligent Design enthusiast needs to justify a
moral Designer who creates the various astonishingly clever mechanisms
which allow organisms to inflict endless misery and death on humanity.

Such examples are endless, but my favorite is the trypanosome which causes
malaria. This organism sports a mechanism whereby it continually shuffles
the proteins on its cell surface, thereby causing the human immune system
to be forever one step behind, playing an endless futile game of catch-up.
This amazingly simple and elegant Design feature has caused the death of
countless millions.

As I say, such examples of intricate, elegant, and seemingly malevolent
Design can be multiplied endlessly; parasitology alone provides many more.
It's hard to see any way out of this dilemma for the ID'er. I suppose
some possible justifications might be:


-- the Designer didn't create THOSE bits, subsequent
evolution did.

-- the Designer's evil twin, the Malicious Designer,
got to muck about in the Workshop.

-- humans deserve it, so what's the problem here?

-- the Designer's ways are mysterious indeed.

-- any other suggestions?



-- cary

You forgot the best one of all:

-- suffering is good for you.

--
MarkA
(this space accidentally filled in)

On Sat, 19 Aug 2006 03:43:28 GMT, Jangchub wrote:
- Refer:
On Sat, 19 Aug 2006 11:36:03 +0930, Michael Gray
wrote:

1. You saw something awesome.
2. You cannot personally understand it.
3. Therefore there is an invisible old man in the sky.

Push to shove, whatever enriches someone's spirituality or kindness or
consciousness is a good thing. I don't believe in a creator, but I
have no problem with those who do. And orb spiders are indeed
awesome. I don't believe a god created them, but if someone else does
and it touches their heart making them a better person, it's great.
Don't you think?

Any form of self-delusion is a potentially damaging thing.
The real-world evidence for such a case is overwhelming.
Delusion is NOT benign, even if it does make the deludee 'feel
better'.

--

On Sat, 19 Aug 2006 01:01:00 -0500, "Greywolf"
wrote:
- Refer:

"Michael Gray" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 17 Aug 2006 11:33:50 -0400, "Samuel W. Heywood"
wrote:
- Refer: .org
On Thu, 17 Aug 2006, Chris H. Fleming wrote:

Samuel W. Heywood wrote:
On Thu, 17 Aug 2006, Tough Tonto wrote:

Last night just before bed, I looked out over my deck, and there
over the middle of it, was the most magnificent spider web ever
devised, shining in the spotlight. This wonder appeared perfectly
circular and was about the size--and very much resembled-- a
33 rpm phono record, with very precisely placed circular strands
close together with perfect symmetry. I still am not sure how
this little master builder anchored this creation; must've been the
hedge
on one side and the chimney on the other, and maybe the deck; but
all this stuff was a good ways off, and the masterpiece was hanging
a good 8 feet over the deck. Another amazing thing is that we had
a heavy rainstorm not 3 hours earlier, so this beauty was designed
and
built in less than 3 hours. So here we have a creature, with a brain
maybe
the size of a grain of sand, and likely less than a year old,
building
something any civil engineer would show with great pride. I got up to
pee around 3 a.m., looked out, and it was already gone.

Wonderful, but what does a nice spider web have to do with
some people saying "there's no God"? Do you think spiders somehow
resemble little gods?

He is making the point that spiders are superbly intelligent
designers, despite their very tiny brains.

... so the gods have tiny brains?

I just knew that some very smart people would draw that conclusion.

I just knew that one very stupid person would not answer the question.

--

Hmmmm. It *is* amazing to see nature at work. In the case of a spider and
it's web: seems pretty 'natural' to me. But then, some people would see the
'miracle' of the construction of a spider-web as proof that Jesus walked on
water, raised people from the dead, and in another 'guise', created the
universe. Now that's what I call a *leap* of faith.

Greywolf

Rather than a "leap of faith", I prefer to think of it as "jumping
into the gaping bottomless chasm of superstion".

--

On 19 Aug 2006 16:40:44 -0700, "Chris H. Fleming"
wrote:

I often hear people say "it's not hurting anybody" or "it makes them
happy" when refering to irrational beliefs. Say something mundane like
a person calling psychic hotlines. It doesn't hurt anybody directly. I
used to feel this way.

But there are evil things people do that can not be rationalized by
anything other than the unbelievable. Flying a plane into a building
one extreme. Or even the minority of Americans who believe God comes
down from his thrown and magically injects a human soul into the zygote
when the sperm and egg unite, so they forbid life saving research,
because that would inconvenience the zygote's soul.

By tolerating mundane irrationality, we create a environment where
threatening irrationality can flourish.

When our president in the U.S. was re-elected I looked at my husband,
he at me and we both at the same time said, "this is going to be a
third world nation in 50 years or less." Nothing will be made here,
nothing invented here because our schools teach to the test, and
overpopulation will prevail.

I am disgusted by this religious right fanaticism. It's AS bad, if
not worse than Muslims who are fanatical. I know many Muslims who are
the sweetest, most caring people. There just seems to be a different
animal these days which is taking religion as the law.

Stem cells can end suffering. I will never vote for anyone who agrees
with the president.

On Sun, 20 Aug 2006 11:55:53 +0930, Michael Gray
wrote:

Rather than a "leap of faith", I prefer to think of it as "jumping
into the gaping bottomless chasm of superstion".

I am not sure why non believers think people who are believers are
superstitious.

Spirituality is a very subjective thing and means different things to
different people. When I'm engaged in conversation and the subject of
god comes up, I ask people what they mean by "god." I am always
surprised to find out many people use the term as a metaphor and it
actually means nothing.

My mother is always saying god watches out for her. If she wants to
believe that, and it gives her some solace, I shut my mouth. I don't
engage her in that discussion because I do not believe in god, or that
someone is watching me who created me. It's still nice to allow for
others to have their thoughts and sometimes it's really good to just
shut my mouth.