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Old 04-12-2007, 02:00 AM posted to rec.gardens
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First recorded activity by GardenBanter: Jan 2007
Posts: 46
Default What's going on under the ice in your pond

It's turned super cold here in Iowa. I've always wondered exactly what
happens uner the ice in my pond. This article is a great source of
information the Winter effect on koi, goldfish and ponds. Written by
Richard Carlson and published by AKCA answers some of the most basic
pond questions such as: how to prepare the pond, immune system
changes, toxic gases, ammonia and aeromonas bacteria problems. Simple
tips on feeding and preparing your filters can make a world of
difference to your fish. Visit Http://www.richdeer3pondsupplies.com...46/page/902636
to view the entire article. Stay warm and wish for Spring!

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Old 04-12-2007, 05:31 AM posted to rec.gardens
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First recorded activity by GardenBanter: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,318
Default What's going on under the ice in your pond

This is a very good question. When Dr. Alex L. Shigo died, he had been
working on research about roots under the ice under the water in ponds and
his swamp.
Somewhat along the lines of your question.
Here he writes about some of it.
http://www.treedictionary.com/DICT20...go/WINTER.html

If you eamil me at when I run accross more stuff
I will send it to you.

"Frozen cavities in soil. Mycorrhizae layer cavities frozen. Water in soil
cavities rarely freezes because the snow on top acts as a very good
insulator. When there is little or no snow, all the small amounts of water
in cavities does freeze. When cavities has very little water due to low
amounts of rain, the situation becomes much worse. The reason is that the
mycorrhizae in the cold soil depend on water to do their work. When there
is no free water, the mycorrhizae do not work. Deficiency problems usually
happen the next growing season. The situation was discussed by Dr. Rene
Pomerleau many years ago. Soil does not freeze, but water in cavities does
freeze."

"A name is needed for the organs, as synergetic associations, with trees and
other organisms, under snow, ice, and water".

"Should the organisms associated with the roots be more correctly termed
oomycetes than fungi? Very few people look for mycorrhizae in winter, and
further, under water covered by ice and snow. Trees may be dormant above
ground in winter, but not dormant below ground."
"Cold and ice can stimulate life, or destroy it. Ice and cold can kill
plants and animals. Above ground ice can kill as twigs, and stems, fracture.
Below ground ice expands soil to for cavities that support life. Cold water
can hold more oxygen than warm water. Fish know this! Warm climates support
an abundance of life. Many organisms know this. Hydrogen dioxide as solid
ice, liquid water, and vapor as a gas, is in many ways, the essence of
life."

"As ice forms and thaws in soil, minute cavities form that support the
growth of many types of microorganisms, insects, and other life forms.
These cavities are not the same as those formed by fracturing tools that
make enormous holes in soil. Even smaller cavities result when fungus
hyphae die. The minute cavities allow air and water to get into the soil.
Compaction is the major disrupters of cavities. This is why mulch of
decomposed plant parts is so essential for soils. In climates that have
cold winters, ice in soil is essential for the health of organisms in the
soil as well as organisms such as plants growing in the soil but getting
food from the sun. When the ice does not form, there may be problems for
plants."


"Cells die when ice crystals form in the walls and spaces between cells
because water in the cells flows outward. The cells die from dehydration.
Water flows outward because the concentration of liquid water decreases as
ice forms and a concentration gradient forms; flow of liquid water goes from
high concentration to low concentration due to the ice crystals that reduce
the amount of liquid water."

There is alot more where this came from.
If I can help you regarding this type of information please email me.
--
Sincerely,
John A. Keslick, Jr.
Consulting Arborist
http://home.ccil.org/~treeman
and www.treedictionary.com
Beware of so-called tree experts who do not understand tree biology.
Storms, fires, floods, earthquakes, and volcanic eruptions keep reminding us
that we are not the boss.


" wrote in message
...
It's turned super cold here in Iowa. I've always wondered exactly what
happens uner the ice in my pond. This article is a great source of
information the Winter effect on koi, goldfish and ponds. Written by
Richard Carlson and published by AKCA answers some of the most basic
pond questions such as: how to prepare the pond, immune system
changes, toxic gases, ammonia and aeromonas bacteria problems. Simple
tips on feeding and preparing your filters can make a world of
difference to your fish. Visit
Http://www.richdeer3pondsupplies.com...46/page/902636
to view the entire article. Stay warm and wish for Spring!



  #3   Report Post  
Old 04-12-2007, 04:40 PM posted to rec.gardens
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by GardenBanter: Sep 2007
Posts: 246
Default What's going on under the ice in your pond

symplastless wrote:
This is a very good question. When Dr. Alex L. Shigo died, he had been
working on research about roots under the ice under the water in ponds and
his swamp.
Somewhat along the lines of your question.
Here he writes about some of it.
http://www.treedictionary.com/DICT20...go/WINTER.html

If you eamil me at when I run accross more stuff
I will send it to you.

"Frozen cavities in soil. Mycorrhizae layer cavities frozen. Water in soil
cavities rarely freezes because the snow on top acts as a very good
insulator. When there is little or no snow, all the small amounts of water
in cavities does freeze. When cavities has very little water due to low
amounts of rain, the situation becomes much worse. The reason is that the
mycorrhizae in the cold soil depend on water to do their work. When there
is no free water, the mycorrhizae do not work. Deficiency problems usually
happen the next growing season. The situation was discussed by Dr. Rene
Pomerleau many years ago. Soil does not freeze, but water in cavities does
freeze."

"A name is needed for the organs, as synergetic associations, with trees and
other organisms, under snow, ice, and water".

"Should the organisms associated with the roots be more correctly termed
oomycetes than fungi? Very few people look for mycorrhizae in winter, and
further, under water covered by ice and snow. Trees may be dormant above
ground in winter, but not dormant below ground."
"Cold and ice can stimulate life, or destroy it. Ice and cold can kill
plants and animals. Above ground ice can kill as twigs, and stems, fracture.
Below ground ice expands soil to for cavities that support life. Cold water
can hold more oxygen than warm water. Fish know this! Warm climates support
an abundance of life. Many organisms know this. Hydrogen dioxide as solid
ice, liquid water, and vapor as a gas, is in many ways, the essence of
life."

"As ice forms and thaws in soil, minute cavities form that support the
growth of many types of microorganisms, insects, and other life forms.
These cavities are not the same as those formed by fracturing tools that
make enormous holes in soil. Even smaller cavities result when fungus
hyphae die. The minute cavities allow air and water to get into the soil.
Compaction is the major disrupters of cavities. This is why mulch of
decomposed plant parts is so essential for soils. In climates that have
cold winters, ice in soil is essential for the health of organisms in the
soil as well as organisms such as plants growing in the soil but getting
food from the sun. When the ice does not form, there may be problems for
plants."


"Cells die when ice crystals form in the walls and spaces between cells
because water in the cells flows outward. The cells die from dehydration.
Water flows outward because the concentration of liquid water decreases as
ice forms and a concentration gradient forms; flow of liquid water goes from
high concentration to low concentration due to the ice crystals that reduce
the amount of liquid water."

There is alot more where this came from.
If I can help you regarding this type of information please email me.




This was posted to rec.aquaria.tech on Dec 3rd with no cross group
posting what-so-ever. Why was it replies to here and not to the OP.

If you're so eager to "answer" their question, it'd be highly
recommended to reply to them in their group, not us.
  #4   Report Post  
Old 04-12-2007, 07:44 PM posted to rec.gardens
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by GardenBanter: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,318
Default What's going on under the ice in your pond

No thanks

I just replyed to question in rec.gardens


--
Sincerely,
John A. Keslick, Jr.
Consulting Arborist
http://home.ccil.org/~treeman
and www.treedictionary.com
Beware of so-called tree experts who do not understand tree biology.
Storms, fires, floods, earthquakes, and volcanic eruptions keep reminding us
that we are not the boss.

"Scott Hildenbrand" wrote in message
.. .
symplastless wrote:
This is a very good question. When Dr. Alex L. Shigo died, he had been
working on research about roots under the ice under the water in ponds
and his swamp.
Somewhat along the lines of your question.
Here he writes about some of it.
http://www.treedictionary.com/DICT20...go/WINTER.html

If you eamil me at when I run accross more
stuff I will send it to you.

"Frozen cavities in soil. Mycorrhizae layer cavities frozen. Water in
soil cavities rarely freezes because the snow on top acts as a very good
insulator. When there is little or no snow, all the small amounts of
water in cavities does freeze. When cavities has very little water due to
low amounts of rain, the situation becomes much worse. The reason is
that the mycorrhizae in the cold soil depend on water to do their work.
When there is no free water, the mycorrhizae do not work. Deficiency
problems usually happen the next growing season. The situation was
discussed by Dr. Rene Pomerleau many years ago. Soil does not freeze,
but water in cavities does freeze."

"A name is needed for the organs, as synergetic associations, with trees
and other organisms, under snow, ice, and water".

"Should the organisms associated with the roots be more correctly termed
oomycetes than fungi? Very few people look for mycorrhizae in winter,
and further, under water covered by ice and snow. Trees may be dormant
above ground in winter, but not dormant below ground."
"Cold and ice can stimulate life, or destroy it. Ice and cold can kill
plants and animals. Above ground ice can kill as twigs, and stems,
fracture. Below ground ice expands soil to for cavities that support
life. Cold water can hold more oxygen than warm water. Fish know this!
Warm climates support an abundance of life. Many organisms know this.
Hydrogen dioxide as solid ice, liquid water, and vapor as a gas, is in
many ways, the essence of life."

"As ice forms and thaws in soil, minute cavities form that support the
growth of many types of microorganisms, insects, and other life forms.
These cavities are not the same as those formed by fracturing tools that
make enormous holes in soil. Even smaller cavities result when fungus
hyphae die. The minute cavities allow air and water to get into the
soil. Compaction is the major disrupters of cavities. This is why mulch
of decomposed plant parts is so essential for soils. In climates that
have cold winters, ice in soil is essential for the health of organisms
in the soil as well as organisms such as plants growing in the soil but
getting food from the sun. When the ice does not form, there may be
problems for plants."


"Cells die when ice crystals form in the walls and spaces between cells
because water in the cells flows outward. The cells die from
dehydration. Water flows outward because the concentration of liquid
water decreases as ice forms and a concentration gradient forms; flow of
liquid water goes from high concentration to low concentration due to the
ice crystals that reduce the amount of liquid water."

There is alot more where this came from.
If I can help you regarding this type of information please email me.




This was posted to rec.aquaria.tech on Dec 3rd with no cross group posting
what-so-ever. Why was it replies to here and not to the OP.

If you're so eager to "answer" their question, it'd be highly recommended
to reply to them in their group, not us.



  #5   Report Post  
Old 05-12-2007, 12:46 AM posted to rec.gardens
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First recorded activity by GardenBanter: Sep 2007
Posts: 246
Default What's going on under the ice in your pond

symplastless wrote:
No thanks

I just replyed to question in rec.gardens



The post you replied to was in no way directed to rec.gardens, so no,
you did not.


  #6   Report Post  
Old 05-12-2007, 02:59 AM posted to rec.gardens
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First recorded activity by GardenBanter: Apr 2007
Posts: 184
Default What's going on under the ice in your pond

On Dec 4, 9:40 am, Scott Hildenbrand
wrote:
symplastless wrote:
This is a very good question. When Dr. Alex L. Shigo died, he had been
working on research about roots under the ice under the water in ponds and
his swamp.
Somewhat along the lines of your question.
Here he writes about some of it.
http://www.treedictionary.com/DICT20...go/WINTER.html


If you eamil me at when I run accross more stuff
I will send it to you.


"Frozen cavities in soil. Mycorrhizae layer cavities frozen. Water in soil
cavities rarely freezes because the snow on top acts as a very good
insulator. When there is little or no snow, all the small amounts of water
in cavities does freeze. When cavities has very little water due to low
amounts of rain, the situation becomes much worse. The reason is that the
mycorrhizae in the cold soil depend on water to do their work. When there
is no free water, the mycorrhizae do not work. Deficiency problems usually
happen the next growing season. The situation was discussed by Dr. Rene
Pomerleau many years ago. Soil does not freeze, but water in cavities does
freeze."


"A name is needed for the organs, as synergetic associations, with trees and
other organisms, under snow, ice, and water".


"Should the organisms associated with the roots be more correctly termed
oomycetes than fungi? Very few people look for mycorrhizae in winter, and
further, under water covered by ice and snow. Trees may be dormant above
ground in winter, but not dormant below ground."
"Cold and ice can stimulate life, or destroy it. Ice and cold can kill
plants and animals. Above ground ice can kill as twigs, and stems, fracture.
Below ground ice expands soil to for cavities that support life. Cold water
can hold more oxygen than warm water. Fish know this! Warm climates support
an abundance of life. Many organisms know this. Hydrogen dioxide as solid
ice, liquid water, and vapor as a gas, is in many ways, the essence of
life."


"As ice forms and thaws in soil, minute cavities form that support the
growth of many types of microorganisms, insects, and other life forms.
These cavities are not the same as those formed by fracturing tools that
make enormous holes in soil. Even smaller cavities result when fungus
hyphae die. The minute cavities allow air and water to get into the soil.
Compaction is the major disrupters of cavities. This is why mulch of
decomposed plant parts is so essential for soils. In climates that have
cold winters, ice in soil is essential for the health of organisms in the
soil as well as organisms such as plants growing in the soil but getting
food from the sun. When the ice does not form, there may be problems for
plants."


"Cells die when ice crystals form in the walls and spaces between cells
because water in the cells flows outward. The cells die from dehydration.
Water flows outward because the concentration of liquid water decreases as
ice forms and a concentration gradient forms; flow of liquid water goes from
high concentration to low concentration due to the ice crystals that reduce
the amount of liquid water."


There is alot more where this came from.
If I can help you regarding this type of information please email me.


This was posted to rec.aquaria.tech on Dec 3rd with no cross group
posting what-so-ever. Why was it replies to here and not to the OP.

If you're so eager to "answer" their question, it'd be highly
recommended to reply to them in their group, not us.


  #7   Report Post  
Old 05-12-2007, 11:37 AM posted to rec.gardens
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First recorded activity by GardenBanter: Jul 2006
Posts: 846
Default What's going on under the ice in your pond

Scott Hildenbrand said:

symplastless wrote:
No thanks

I just replyed to question in rec.gardens


The post you replied to was in no way directed to rec.gardens, so no,
you did not.


Actually, yes it was posted on 12/3 to rec.gardens. It wasn't cross-posted,
either.

--

Eggs

-Half the people you know are below average.
  #8   Report Post  
Old 05-12-2007, 08:54 PM posted to rec.gardens
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First recorded activity by GardenBanter: Sep 2007
Posts: 246
Default What's going on under the ice in your pond

Eggs Zachtly wrote:
Scott Hildenbrand said:

symplastless wrote:
No thanks

I just replyed to question in rec.gardens

The post you replied to was in no way directed to rec.gardens, so no,
you did not.


Actually, yes it was posted on 12/3 to rec.gardens. It wasn't cross-posted,
either.


Really?

My news group server must be screwing up then. Not seeing the orig at
all and when I check goog for ref it puts it posted as into
rec.aquaria.tech.

Maybe I should go back to using a paid nntp server.

But at any rate, son has just taken to dropping small objects down the
HVAC air return in the floor. Off to go convince him not to.
  #9   Report Post  
Old 05-12-2007, 11:31 PM posted to rec.gardens
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First recorded activity by GardenBanter: Jul 2006
Posts: 846
Default What's going on under the ice in your pond

Scott Hildenbrand said:

Eggs Zachtly wrote:
Scott Hildenbrand said:

symplastless wrote:
No thanks

I just replyed to question in rec.gardens

The post you replied to was in no way directed to rec.gardens, so no,
you did not.


Actually, yes it was posted on 12/3 to rec.gardens. It wasn't cross-posted,
either.


Really?

My news group server must be screwing up then. Not seeing the orig at
all and when I check goog for ref it puts it posted as into
rec.aquaria.tech.


Message-ID:


Good grief now G2 is trying its best to bork MIDs. *sigh*

[...]


--

Eggs

Two can live as cheaply as one, for half as long.


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