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#1
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need some soil amendment advice
Soil ammendment tends to be temporary, & repeat ammendments can eventually
corrupt the soil. Some plants, like camelias, die in soils that have been ammended two or three times. If one lives in a region where soils are naturally to the alkaline edge, but wanting a big collection of rhododendrons, & so truck in acidic topsoil for the collection, a few years later the soil will have alkalinized to match the larger environment. I love our naturally acidic soils, but if I found myself living somewhere to the alkaline side, there'd be a few things I'd have to give up, but many new things I could grow instead. Ideally one understands what the natural soils are like in the region, & if one's immediately accessible gardening areas have soil in need of restoration or improvement (for instance, because it is all clay, or some other repairable limitation), it would be ammended toward the natural state of local soils. That way it might never need further ammendments ever. Regional soil types are defined by types & percentages of mineral deposits & topography (such as a valley below lime-rich hills), types of plants that recycle themselves into soils, & the rainfall patterns & water tables or amounts of surface water. One selects plants appropriate to the natural pH levels, finding plants that do best in the actual local environment. -paghat the ratgirl -- "Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher. "Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature. -from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers" See the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com/ |
#2
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need some soil amendment advice
paghat wrote:
Soil ammendment tends to be temporary, & repeat ammendments can eventually corrupt the soil. Some plants, like camelias, die in soils that have been ammended two or three times. If one lives in a region where soils are naturally to the alkaline edge, but wanting a big collection of rhododendrons, & so truck in acidic topsoil for the collection, a few years later the soil will have alkalinized to match the larger environment. I love our naturally acidic soils, but if I found myself living somewhere to the alkaline side, there'd be a few things I'd have to give up, but many new things I could grow instead. Ideally one understands what the natural soils are like in the region, & if one's immediately accessible gardening areas have soil in need of restoration or improvement (for instance, because it is all clay, or some other repairable limitation), it would be ammended toward the natural state of local soils. That way it might never need further ammendments ever. Regional soil types are defined by types & percentages of mineral deposits & topography (such as a valley below lime-rich hills), types of plants that recycle themselves into soils, & the rainfall patterns & water tables or amounts of surface water. One selects plants appropriate to the natural pH levels, finding plants that do best in the actual local environment. -paghat the ratgirl is not adding appropriate organic material (compost etc) also consdired ameding? I am confused now. Penny S |
#3
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need some soil amendment advice
In article , "Penny S."
wrote: paghat wrote: Soil ammendment tends to be temporary, & repeat ammendments can eventually corrupt the soil. Some plants, like camelias, die in soils that have been ammended two or three times. If one lives in a region where soils are naturally to the alkaline edge, but wanting a big collection of rhododendrons, & so truck in acidic topsoil for the collection, a few years later the soil will have alkalinized to match the larger environment. I love our naturally acidic soils, but if I found myself living somewhere to the alkaline side, there'd be a few things I'd have to give up, but many new things I could grow instead. Ideally one understands what the natural soils are like in the region, & if one's immediately accessible gardening areas have soil in need of restoration or improvement (for instance, because it is all clay, or some other repairable limitation), it would be ammended toward the natural state of local soils. That way it might never need further ammendments ever. Regional soil types are defined by types & percentages of mineral deposits & topography (such as a valley below lime-rich hills), types of plants that recycle themselves into soils, & the rainfall patterns & water tables or amounts of surface water. One selects plants appropriate to the natural pH levels, finding plants that do best in the actual local environment. -paghat the ratgirl is not adding appropriate organic material (compost etc) also consdired ameding? I am confused now. It is. But if the goal is to change the soil to something other than is the normal average in the region, it will be a temporary fix, & if the fix is done repeatedly with soil additives (chemical or mineral), the accumulative effect can destroy the soil for sensitive plants even if one can get the preferred pH reading after long tinkering. -paghat -- "Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher. "Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature. -from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers" See the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com/ |
#4
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need some soil amendment advice
paghat wrote:
is not adding appropriate organic material (compost etc) also consdired ameding? I am confused now. It is. But if the goal is to change the soil to something other than is the normal average in the region, it will be a temporary fix, & if the fix is done repeatedly with soil additives (chemical or mineral), the accumulative effect can destroy the soil for sensitive plants even if one can get the preferred pH reading after long tinkering. -paghat you mean normal healthy right? I'm somewhere on the cusp of sand and black glacial loess. ;-) Penny |
#5
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need some soil amendment advice
"Penny S." wrote: paghat wrote: Soil ammendment tends to be temporary, & repeat ammendments can eventually corrupt the soil. Some plants, like camelias, die in soils that have been ammended two or three times. If one lives in a region where soils are naturally to the alkaline edge, but wanting a big collection of rhododendrons, & so truck in acidic topsoil for the collection, a few years later the soil will have alkalinized to match the larger environment. I love our naturally acidic soils, but if I found myself living somewhere to the alkaline side, there'd be a few things I'd have to give up, but many new things I could grow instead. Ideally one understands what the natural soils are like in the region, & if one's immediately accessible gardening areas have soil in need of restoration or improvement (for instance, because it is all clay, or some other repairable limitation), it would be ammended toward the natural state of local soils. That way it might never need further ammendments ever. Regional soil types are defined by types & percentages of mineral deposits & topography (such as a valley below lime-rich hills), types of plants that recycle themselves into soils, & the rainfall patterns & water tables or amounts of surface water. One selects plants appropriate to the natural pH levels, finding plants that do best in the actual local environment. -paghat the ratgirl is not adding appropriate organic material (compost etc) also consdired ameding? I am confused now. Penny S As well you might be - I'd be confused after reading that, also :-)) Perhaps it might be more simply explained: It is difficult and perhaps impossible to make significant permanent changes to soil pH - most soils, clay ones in particular, have a buffering ability which will tend to revert a soil which has been amended to substantially change pH to an equilibrium level which will be very similar to that of native, unamended soils. Making significant changes to soil pH also requires considerable amounts of amendments. It is therefore not generally recommended that one attempt to significantly alter soil pH but to work within existing conditions. The good news is that most plants will tolerate a pretty wide range of soil pH - acid-loving rhododendrons for example are ideally located in soils with a pH of 5.0 to 5.5 but are perfectly well adapted to our slightly acidic PNW soils of 6.0 to 6.5. Therefore, unless you have rather unusual conditions, it is typically unnecessary to make drastic changes to soil pH, although small adjustments can and are made frequently - i.e.liming lawns to adjust pH to retard moss development, adding peat moss to plantings for blueberries, etc. Amending soils to increase fertility and friability and to improve drainage is done all the time and is generally considered to be a good idea for pretty near any soil, specially those which have not been worked in a long time. This usually involves adding some form of organic material - compost, leaf mulch, whatever, and/or adding trace elements in the form of rock powders. The intent is to increase soil porosity and permeability and to encourage development of soil biota. The only drawback to this is that overtilling organic matter into the soil (or just plain overtilling) can destroy soil structure. This is usually more of a concern in agricultural settings than it is in a residential garden - one doesn't often need to plow up existing planting areas in residential gardens after initially amending or improving the soil.:-) And ongoing soil amendment can be accomplished simply by mulching periodically with a good organic mulch or by topdressing with compost. Ideally, soil amending/improvements should be done to an entire planting area rather than to individual planting holes. Overamending individual planting holes tends to complicate drainage issues rather than improve them and discourages plant roots from spreading out into unamended - and to the plants - less desireable soil conditions. In your circumstance where wholesale amending is not possible, mulching or topdressing is the way to go. There are a number of new soil amendments on the market which have been fortified with both endo- and ecto-mycorrhizae as well as other essential beneficial soil microbes which will accelarate the decomposition of the root mass or you can do your own innoculation through the use of aerobic compost tea. Either way, increasing the populations of benenficial soil microorganisms will hasten decompostion and result in a very dynamic and healthy soil condition. Bottom line - amending the soil in a correct manner is a good thing. Attempting to significantly adjust soil pH is generally an exercise in futility and can destroy a rather fragile ecological balance. HTH pam - gardengal |
#6
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need some soil amendment advice
Pam wrote in message ...
Bottom line - amending the soil in a correct manner is a good thing. Attempting to significantly adjust soil pH is generally an exercise in futility and can destroy a rather fragile ecological balance. So, if the pH in the area surrounding my veggie garden is 5.0 (it is), I can forget about beets and asparagus? They both prefer at least 6.5. Indeed, of the veggies that prefer around 7.0, only lettuce does consistently well. Garlic does OK, chard cabbage cardoon onions and tatsoi are relatively small. I do not have a fetish about having huge veggies, just trying to understand the pattern. I certainly have success with acid tolerant radicchio and tomatoes. I spread enough wood ash every spring, incidentally, to bring the pH around 6.5. And the beds are more than 50% organic matter and most of their surface is mulched with wood chips or leaves most of the time. I manure the beds every two years. Under the beds the soil is probably even more acid than the surroundings, having been a boggy area for a long time. I have also noticed that the soil near concrete has a pH of 6.5 or higher (using the color charts provided with the kits). The pH is permanent as long as the lime source is permanent. |
#7
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need some soil amendment advice
simy1 wrote: Pam wrote in message ... Bottom line - amending the soil in a correct manner is a good thing. Attempting to significantly adjust soil pH is generally an exercise in futility and can destroy a rather fragile ecological balance. So, if the pH in the area surrounding my veggie garden is 5.0 (it is), I can forget about beets and asparagus? They both prefer at least 6.5. Indeed, of the veggies that prefer around 7.0, only lettuce does consistently well. Garlic does OK, chard cabbage cardoon onions and tatsoi are relatively small. I do not have a fetish about having huge veggies, just trying to understand the pattern. I certainly have success with acid tolerant radicchio and tomatoes. I spread enough wood ash every spring, incidentally, to bring the pH around 6.5. And the beds are more than 50% organic matter and most of their surface is mulched with wood chips or leaves most of the time. I manure the beds every two years. Under the beds the soil is probably even more acid than the surroundings, having been a boggy area for a long time. I have also noticed that the soil near concrete has a pH of 6.5 or higher (using the color charts provided with the kits). The pH is permanent as long as the lime source is permanent. Most veggies do prefer neutral to slight alkaline soils - have you considered using raised beds? That way you can add soil that will be a suitable pH for the veggies without trying to constantly change the existing soil acidity. And depending on the source of the wood chips, they could be contributing to the acidity. Using a coarse wood product as a mulch maybe not a great idea in a vegetable garden, anyway - it does tend to tie up nitrogen at least through the first few inches of the soil, which is where the bulk of the feeder roots are located. I used to use compost as a mulch for my veggies.......when I was able to grow them in a former, more sunny garden. |
#8
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need some soil amendment advice
Pam wrote in message ...
simy1 wrote: Pam wrote in message ... Bottom line - amending the soil in a correct manner is a good thing. Attempting to significantly adjust soil pH is generally an exercise in futility and can destroy a rather fragile ecological balance. So, if the pH in the area surrounding my veggie garden is 5.0 (it is), I can forget about beets and asparagus? They both prefer at least 6.5. Indeed, of the veggies that prefer around 7.0, only lettuce does consistently well. Garlic does OK, chard cabbage cardoon onions and tatsoi are relatively small. I do not have a fetish about having huge veggies, just trying to understand the pattern. I certainly have success with acid tolerant radicchio and tomatoes. I spread enough wood ash every spring, incidentally, to bring the pH around 6.5. And the beds are more than 50% organic matter and most of their surface is mulched with wood chips or leaves most of the time. I manure the beds every two years. Under the beds the soil is probably even more acid than the surroundings, having been a boggy area for a long time. I have also noticed that the soil near concrete has a pH of 6.5 or higher (using the color charts provided with the kits). The pH is permanent as long as the lime source is permanent. Most veggies do prefer neutral to slight alkaline soils - have you considered using raised beds? T I have raised beds. hat way you can add soil that will be a suitable pH for the veggies without trying to constantly change the existing soil acidity. Beet roots go down six feet. Are you suggesting six feet deep raised beds? And depending on the source of the wood chips, they could be contributing to the acidity. Generally, they all do. I only use them together with wood ash, and alone for fruit trees, shrubs, and bulbs. Using a coarse wood product as a mulch maybe not a great idea in a vegetable garden, anyway - it does tend to tie up nitrogen at least through the first few inches of the soil, which is where the bulk of the feeder roots are located. That is something I failed to replicate over many tries. It could be that I always woodchip for the tomatoes, and layer high N compost under them (kitchen scraps). Or it could be that N tends to go down rather than up. However, there is contradiction in the wisdom of this group. If you can not change the pH, why use raised beds/compost at all? The only hypothesis that seems viable is that veggies grow well as long as they have part of their roots in soil with the proper pH. However, since the soil of the beds will tend to become like the soil underneath, one has to lime every year, even though he/she started with neutral soil. I used to use compost as a mulch for my veggies.......when I was able to grow them in a former, more sunny garden. |
#9
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need some soil amendment advice
Pam wrote in message ...
simy1 wrote: Pam wrote in message ... Bottom line - amending the soil in a correct manner is a good thing. Attempting to significantly adjust soil pH is generally an exercise in futility and can destroy a rather fragile ecological balance. So, if the pH in the area surrounding my veggie garden is 5.0 (it is), I can forget about beets and asparagus? They both prefer at least 6.5. Indeed, of the veggies that prefer around 7.0, only lettuce does consistently well. Garlic does OK, chard cabbage cardoon onions and tatsoi are relatively small. I do not have a fetish about having huge veggies, just trying to understand the pattern. I certainly have success with acid tolerant radicchio and tomatoes. I spread enough wood ash every spring, incidentally, to bring the pH around 6.5. And the beds are more than 50% organic matter and most of their surface is mulched with wood chips or leaves most of the time. I manure the beds every two years. Under the beds the soil is probably even more acid than the surroundings, having been a boggy area for a long time. I have also noticed that the soil near concrete has a pH of 6.5 or higher (using the color charts provided with the kits). The pH is permanent as long as the lime source is permanent. Most veggies do prefer neutral to slight alkaline soils - have you considered using raised beds? That way you can add soil that will be a suitable pH for the veggies without trying to constantly change the existing soil acidity. I don't see the point. You just said that ultimately raised beds will take the pH of the surroundings. Also, beet roots go down six feet. Should one think about six feet deep beds? And depending on the source of the wood chips, they could be contributing to the acidity. Using a coarse wood product as a mulch maybe not a great idea in a vegetable garden, anyway - it does tend to tie up nitrogen at least through the first few inches of the soil, which is where the bulk of the feeder roots are located. I used to use compost as a mulch for my veggies.......when I was able to grow them in a former, more sunny garden. I have not seen that, either. Perhaps because I tend to use wood chips together with wood ash, and I always put a layer of high N compost underneath (kitchen scraps). Also, I am willing to bet that, say, sawdust is relatively worse, as N tying is largely a surface effect. What I am trying to say is that, if this pH hypothesis is really true, then adding compost or building beds does little to correct it. One still has to lime every single year, and plants with deep roots and a liking for neutral pH still suffer if the site is not right. |
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