"Jangchub" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 8 Jun 2008 20:58:09 -0500, "Nelly Wensdow"

No, nothing wrong with NOT being vegetarian at al. It's my choice to
be vegetarian. I do find that alfalfa pellets are rather inexpensive
and rabbits like those, so I use it to deter the critters from plants.
It doesn't stop the squirrels from coming down eating one bite from
each on the tree. Even still, I would never consider trapping, live
or otherwisem, the squirrel for fear they do have a nest somewhere and
will be taken away from nurturing the infants.

I'm well aware that if there are babies in my planter then there are
probably a gazillion more underneath the shed & elsewhere, so whatever
trapping there is to do will probably have to wait. But I will NOT feed
them. They are attracted to these man-made structures, while nature has
provided them a bounty across the street (but admittedly, I'm not at all
sure whether they've already overpopulated that area or not...). The only
things I go out of my way to feed are (native-only) birds; and except for
hummingbirds, I often have doubts about how big of a favor I'm doing *them*.


All I suggested to you was to grow a heart in that garden of yours. A
little compassion goes a long way. If you rationalize it to mean you
should kill animals because they are starving, this is not what I
meant.

So then, I reiterate: Why do you keep implying I have no heart? Would it
surprise you to know that I relocate spiders & bugs I find in my house? That
I've rescued toads, bees & mice from my *own* pool? That I have black rats
living out back & don't ever bother them? That in another state I own &
maintain 30-some acres of unspoiled woodlands thriving with chipmunks,
squirrels, deer, native birds, hornets, spiders, mice, snakes, tortoises,
salamanders, skinks, butterflies, moths, beetles, and numerous plant,
mushroom, moss & lichen species? And, except for the mushrooms & a few wild
herbs & berries, I don't bother any of them. Nobody in their right mind who
knows me at all can say I don't respect nature. I think you've got me wrong,
stranger.

On Jun 9, 9:56 am, Jangchub wrote:
On Mon, 9 Jun 2008 05:07:42 -0700 (PDT), Chris

wrote:
Good for you. But your ethics are not universal, there's no reason for
them to be universal, and insulting someone who doesn't share them is
inappropriate, to say the least.

Chris

I said nothing inappropriate, in my estimation. I expressed myself.

Do you think it's always appropriate to express yourself? I would say
not, especially when you're saying something that is derogatory, and
implying someone is heartless certainly falls into that category. It
was a gratuitous insult, really.

How it's viewed by those who read it are interpreting it the way they
see it, through the veil of their beleifs. I don't intentionally
kill. Especially under the conditions of your photo, which I have not
looked at. Certain images are not good for anyone to see. Things like
it break my heart.

The photo doesn't show any animals at all. It shows what happens to
habitats when animals are allowed to overproduce. Humans have changed
the ecological landscape to such a degree- favoring some species and
eliminating others- the in order to maintain some sort of balance, we
must take more active measures. It often isn't pretty. But you claim
to be a steward of the land. Death is a natural part of the world. In
my estimation, a proper steward understands the need for active
management and, at times, bringing one population back to within
normal limits, so that all the other populations don't suffer.



I write to a killer in prison. A complete gang banger, killer,
murderer. Has killed even IN prison. I still found under it all who
he is and how remorseful he is. I would fight to the death to prevent
his execution. Fortunately, they rearly, if everr, execute in
California. Texas is another story. They kill people like it's
ordinary and just fine. They have no idea.

I am also luck to live in New York, where executions are rare, if not
unheard of. I don't even recall the last one here.

Chris

On Jun 9, 11:36 am, Jangchub wrote:
On Mon, 9 Jun 2008 05:07:42 -0700 (PDT), Chris

wrote:
Well, not as far as anything you mention above.

By a "different view" I mean I do not see humans as more important
life forms than rabbits. I see all life as equal. I try to view all

And I limited my comment to the specific things you mentioned in that
post. We seem to have those ideas in common.

humans, friend-enemy-stranger as all the same, as well. I didn't say
it is easy, but I do. It's my belief system. I don't say you should
adopt it, but I commented on something very strong you said regarding
killing rabbits. I'm way in the other direction. I've purchased
feeder fish and crickets and other live animals fed to snakes, etc,
and freed them.

OK, put that way, sure. You're wrong and inconsiderate and rude and a
host of other pejorative adjectives, but sure, you have the right, I
guess. And no, Bush isn't killing for free speech. He's killing for a
lot of reasons, like oil, and his tiny penis, and the fact he hasn't
had a drink in 20 years- but not freedom.

I say NO penis or balls, and do you honestly believe he stopped
drinking 20 years ago? I said "freedom" facetiously.

Well, the shrinks say he has the symptoms of what's called a "dry
drunk", mainly an extremely rigid worldview that's incapable of
accepting criticism, or of bending in any direction. Maybe not 20
years, but I doubt he's drinking now. As to penis and balls, you may
very well be correct.



I have seen overpopulated areas where animals suffer. One such place
is the pen where they hold cattle before they kill them.

You have, then, no idea what horrific habitat degradation is like. Try
the photo he

http://www.nodakoutdoors.com/snow-goose-genetics.php

It's not just the particular species that suffers; it's whole
ecosystems.

I won't look at the photo. I don't need to. I am well aware of the
ravaging overpopulation is capable of. This is why I strongly believe
in zero population growth. I've been criticized for saying that, but
I stand by my opinion anyway.

I'd be the last to criticize you for ZPG.


I don't own
my property. I'm a steward of my property. Animals are life forms. I
plant extra for them.

Good for you. But your ethics are not universal, there's no reason for
them to be universal, and insulting someone who doesn't share them is
inappropriate, to say the least.

Chris

I don't see my ethics as universal. If I did we wouldn't be having
this discussion.

I didn't see where you apologized to Nelly; I'm sorry if I was rude.

Chris

On Jun 7, 11:07*am, "Nelly Wensdow" wrote:
Just discovered them while trying to put in some big Coleus. What on earth
made them think it was a good place for a nest up off the ground, and what,
if anything, should I do? I don't want them in there. Will the mother move
them for me? Abandon them? What if I do (or don't) cover them back up? I'm
not sure if I hit one with my hand spade or not.

They're so widdle, I don't really want to kill them...at least not until
they start eating up all my plants, as they always do. We've already got a
ton of 'em around here, living underneath a shed out back. (And we're not
allowed to shoot them. In fact, it's illegal to even throw a snowball in
this town. Literally.)

Any suggestions?

How's about moving them not too far away and let their mom to find
them? Their mom should not be too far away, and she might be watching
you when you were approaching the nest. If you move her babies
several feet away, she will understand that this is a dangerous place
to build a nest, and probably will move elsewhere. You may not want
to stay there and watch; otherwise, she may be scared away and defeats
the purpose, or she may intentionally run pass right in front of you
to try to attrack you away from her nest - either way, you may not
want to stay around. Stay away and let her to collect her kids.

I personally don't hate rabbits and perfer to co-exist with them.
They are quite harmless _as_long_as_ you have fenced in your vegetable
garden.

Jay Chan

"Jangchub" wrote in message
...

If I got you wrong I apologize. I've met far more people who
disregard life outside of human life. I also feed the birds, but I
have no way of NOT feeding non-native species. I provide nesting
areas for barn swallows, purple martins, wrens and other cavity
dwellers. We have a pair of boat tail grackles this year. Big,
honkin', loud things. Totally unafraid of people and generally fly in
flocks by the tens of thousands. I hope they don't all move in. I
still have no way of preventing starlings from eating out of the
feeders.

Anyway, you came off very harsh at first and now you are changing your
tune a bit so there is no longer an argument.

Yes, I do tend to sound gruff, but with me it's often something of an
affectation. For instance the part about "her dumb ass squashin' my
coleus", that probably should've had a smiley or something after it. So it's
not really that I was changing my tune exactly. Just gave the wrong
impression. Wasn't out to offend anyone's sensibilities.

I think the grackles did all move in here this year. There were none at all
last year, now BOOM. What a cacaphony among the beautiful songs of all the
other birds. But I wish I knew what to tell you about the starlings. They
are just the worst plague on native birds everywhere (besides humans, of
course). I've seen a few here starting just this year, but they've so far
stayed away from my feeders. House sparrows are a bigger problem for me, but
it's easy enough to just not buy anything with millet in it, or to never
toss any seed or breadstuff on the ground. I've been a local bluebird
monitor for a couple years, and if I thought I would live in this house a
while longer I might put up a box for them in the yard. But ohh, the
gruesome horrors those sparrows do to those poor birds.... And you probably
don't wanna know how I deal with them. Although, I could probably put up a
few boxes at the cabin (the woodland property) next time I get out there,
even though it's been years since I've even spotted any in that entire area.
Being so far away I couldn't monitor them or anything but I think whatever
nests in there might be safe from the HOSP due to its being pretty far from
civilization. I'll have to check how far they need to be from the farms &
granaries & such.

But getting back to the bunnies; today I saw them beginning to poke their
heads up under nest covering, so they somehow survived all the flooding
rains. Their eyes are now open, too. I'm told the momma only goes back to
the nest once a day to feed them, so I won't know if she did or not for a
bit I guess. AFA the population problem, I still have to see what I can find
out. Even if they get relocated, there's still the big hollow under the shed
& that'll have to be filled or else the others'll just move right on in. And
good luck getting this landlord to do it.

Persephone wrote:
On Sat, 7 Jun 2008 10:07:47 -0500, "Nelly Wensdow"
wrote:

Just discovered them while trying to put in some big Coleus. What on earth
made them think it was a good place for a nest up off the ground, and what,
if anything, should I do? I don't want them in there. Will the mother move
them for me? Abandon them? What if I do (or don't) cover them back up? I'm
not sure if I hit one with my hand spade or not.

They're so widdle, I don't really want to kill them...at least not until
they start eating up all my plants, as they always do. We've already got a
ton of 'em around here, living underneath a shed out back. (And we're not
allowed to shoot them. In fact, it's illegal to even throw a snowball in
this town. Literally.)

Any suggestions?

Ask a pet store if they want to take them for sale?

And try not to think about their fate once sold to careless buyers g

Persephone

If the OP is in North America, wild rabbits do not make good pets. The
domesticated rabbit is descended from European rabbits. North American
rabbits and European rabbits are not closely related and have totally
different social structure and behavior. Someone getting a young
American rabbit and expecting it to behave like a pet will be extremely
disappointed.

Chris

On Sat, 07 Jun 2008 18:34:09 -0400, Bill
In article ,
Jangchub wrote:

Humans are the dumbest animals on the planet.

No. Over the weekend I knocked in 4 stakes and stapled some frost cloth
across the top. It was supposed to be a cloche for a succulent. Today my
wife got home and found our thick as a plank black & white cat using it is a
hammock. Last night I found another of the cats sleeping on some towels in
the washing machine. Daft.

rob

the reason that there are now ticks where there were NEVER ticks in the past is that
the deer population has exploded. So has the rabbit and squirrel population. And
the coyote, fox and wolf population is following as expected.

I left the squirrels alone until they began eating into our house. I battled them
for 4 years paying people to replace the chewed wood, reinforce with aluminum
flashing. This spring I realized they had once again found a way in so I set the
trap and got 2 adults and 3 out of the 4 young ones. Squirrels are smart and would
remember "the good old days" of eating their way thru the metal flashing to get into
the house. I had to get rid of all with any memory of eating into the house. I
inherited the "house dwellers" from the house next door which stood empty for 5 years
or so and they had been in there. When the house was bought and being fixed up the
squirrels were evicted and just moved over to my house.

There are a couple ways to deal with baby vermin (yes, they do carry disease so
handle carefully). Put them out in the open and let nature take its course. I
prefer to drop them into a bucket of ice cold water. They sink and die quickly, the
cold water numbs them. I had to drown the squirrels I caught in the cage. I didnt
like doing this, but it was fast. The laws forbid "relocation" of wild animals like
this in Wisconsin.

Ingrid

In article ,
Erik Vastmasd wrote:

I'm an Atheist but this is a gardening newsgroup so I won't discuss our
differences in religious beliefs.

O', den you won't be joining us for next spring's
fertility rites;-)
--

Billy
Bush and Pelosi Behind Bars
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KVTf...ef=patrick.net
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0aEo...eature=related

On Jun 9, 11:51 am, Jangchub wrote:
On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 00:03:10 +1000, Erik Vastmasd



wrote:
On Mon, 09 Jun 2008 05:36:44 -0500,when reading "rec.gardens", I'm
certain I caught a glimpse of "Jangchub " saying:

On Sun, 8 Jun 2008 20:58:09 -0500, "Nelly Wensdow"
wrote:

I snipped Nelly's post for brevity but I support her comments

No, nothing wrong with NOT being vegetarian at al. It's my choice to
be vegetarian. I do find that alfalfa pellets are rather inexpensive
and rabbits like those, so I use it to deter the critters from plants.
It doesn't stop the squirrels from coming down eating one bite from
each on the tree. Even still, I would never consider trapping, live
or otherwisem, the squirrel for fear they do have a nest somewhere and
will be taken away from nurturing the infants.

I eat both meat and vegetables so I'm not a vegetarian. But I'm a keen
gardener and grow vegetables because I'm able to grow them and it saves
me having to pay for them at the supermarket.

We have an abundance of Native and Feral animals that can attack our
veggies so if we don't control those animals there is no point in
planting vegetables in the first place.

All I suggested to you was to grow a heart in that garden of yours.

You have said something similar before and I still can't understand what
you mean.

A little compassion goes a long way. If you rationalize it to mean you
should kill animals because they are starving, this is not what I
meant.

Recently we had a cull of 400 Kangaroos because drought conditions
caused lack of feed. If the cull hadn't been carried out they all could
have died.

In another situation where a small confined population of Hares [an
introduced species] were in danger, they were culled to preserve their
community.

I daily set traps to catch feral cats which are picked up by the RSPCA.

When I rescue rats or ants out of my swimming pool, the life
I'm saving is my own.

I just don't understand what you are trying to say?

I'm saying I don't discriminate between human and animal life. I see
both as valuable and would not kill either, intentionally. I believe
in karma. Karma is a Sanskrit word meaning action. Everything I do
will have a reaction which will ripen at some point. If I save an ant
from the pool, someone will save me. If I kill, I will eventually be
killed. Action/Reaction. I'm a Buddhist and we don't believe in
killing anything.

Culling to prevent starvation? I'm a little torn by that one.
Admittedly, I have put my pets down when they were suffering. That
type of killing karma is not as heavy as if I did sport hunting for
fun, not food. I won't kill animals to feed me, either. If I don't
eat meat I am not part of the cog where animals suffer to feed me.
Because it's in the package at the grocery store doesn't mean it
didn't once have a face with eyes. I don't know, this is who I am. It
upsets me when people kill because I don't want to see them suffer,
but there is nothing I can do about that.

This may all sound ridiculous and superstitious, but not to me or to
the billion other Buddhists on the planet.

I think we could all benefit by having a bigger heart.

I'm a little curious about something now. You mentioned in another
post that you weed your garden. I understand you have to kill plants
to eat and survive, but how does weeding fit in? This is simple
curiosity, since I weed without compunction. You mentioned you won't
use a herbicide, so I wondered if there's a difference- there
certainly isn't any difference in that the plant is dead. (Not saying
anything against that either, since while I am not organic, I also
don't use any pesticides or herbicides on my property).

Chris

In article
,
Billy wrote:

In article ,
Erik Vastmasd wrote:

I'm an Atheist but this is a gardening newsgroup so I won't discuss our
differences in religious beliefs.

O', den you won't be joining us for next spring's
fertility rites;-)

While looking about for voluptuous plants inspired from your post found
this tidbit.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...0F935A35752C0A
9649C8B63&sec=&spon=

Bill

Last sentence from above URL.

"Two hundred years ago, the pleasure must have been as sweet when a
botanist and a prince -- and possibly they were the same man --
conceived the idea and accordingly decreed that, no matter how dark the
night or how troubled and complex the political situation, on the dinner
table, at least, it thenceforth might as well be spring. "

--
Garden in shade zone 5 S Jersey USA
Neat place .. http://www.petersvalley.org/

In article
,
Bill wrote:

In article
,
Billy wrote:

In article ,
Erik Vastmasd wrote:

I'm an Atheist but this is a gardening newsgroup so I won't discuss our
differences in religious beliefs.

O', den you won't be joining us for next spring's
fertility rites;-)

While looking about for voluptuous plants inspired from your post found
this tidbit.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...0F935A35752C0A
9649C8B63&sec=&spon=

Bill

Last sentence from above URL.

"Two hundred years ago, the pleasure must have been as sweet when a
botanist and a prince -- and possibly they were the same man --
conceived the idea and accordingly decreed that, no matter how dark the
night or how troubled and complex the political situation, on the dinner
table, at least, it thenceforth might as well be spring. "

"I'm as restless as a willow in a windstorm,
I'm as jumpy as puppet on a string"

I'd call it tornado season(

Voluptuous plants ain't exactly wot I 'ad in mind, mate, wink,
wink, nudge, nudge.
Take care now and don't get no splinters.

Ah, ye kin take the boy outta the country but ye can't take the
country outta the boy;-)

Sad thing about the dinning ware is that it is designated the
"good dinning ware" put into a hutch to be gazed at and rarely,
if ever, used. The petit bourgeois drove Flaubert to depression and
fame.
--

Billy
Bush and Pelosi Behind Bars
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KVTf...ef=patrick.net
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0aEo...eature=related

In article ,
Jangchub wrote:

On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 17:06:41 -0700, Persephone wrote:


Thanks for detailed and interesting account.

Persephone

The last word on this is if you want to know how Buddhism works an
excellent place to look is www.lywa.org

Could you be more specific? All I heard was a lot of throat clearing.
--

Billy
Bush and Pelosi Behind Bars
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KVTf...ef=patrick.net
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0aEo...eature=related

wrote in message
.com...
[....]
There are a couple ways to deal with baby vermin (yes, they do carry
disease so
handle carefully). Put them out in the open and let nature take its
course. I
prefer to drop them into a bucket of ice cold water. They sink and die
quickly, the
cold water numbs them.

Reminds me of when my father uncovered a nest of baby mice after opening up
an old stairway in the house. My mother has fond affection for mice, but
unfortunately in this case it was the dead of winter, so they reluctantly
agreed it would be more humane to drown them than to leave them to
starvation & predation. Nobody ever thought about ice water, though; I'll
have to keep that in mind, "in case".

[...] The laws forbid "relocation" of wild animals like
this in Wisconsin.

Ingrid

Uh, oh. Guess the rabbits are in for more trouble than I thought, since
that's where I am.

Eggs Zachtly wrote:
Jangchub said:



If humans weren't supposed to eat meat, then why do they have canine,
central, and lateral incisors? Were we supposed to be vegetarian, we would
have *only* molars. Humans are omnivores.


I think you're a bit off on your herbivore/carnivore dentition
information. Herbivores certainly do have incisors - they use them to
cut/snip the plant material, the tongue moves it to the back of the
mouth where the molars grind it. Without incisors, a herbivore would
have a very difficult time getting food into its mouth. And as well
some pure herbivores still have canine teeth.

In predatory animals, the canine teeth are used to hold onto the prey
animal and the molars/jaws are used to create crush injuries. Canine
teeth are used in the catching of food not the eating of food. Human
canines are about the same length as the nearby teeth so they've long
lost their original function.

Chris