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Old 09-06-2008, 05:20 PM posted to rec.gardens
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Default Creosote Ties

"SteveB" wrote:
I am looking for some old railroad ties. �They have creosote treating on
them, but it is weak due to the age of the ties. �Is this a problem when
using them to form raised beds?


Seems you're looking for something you already have?!?!?
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Old 09-06-2008, 06:50 PM posted to rec.gardens
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Default Creosote Ties

On Jun 9, 1:12 pm, "SteveB" toquerville@zionvistas wrote:
I am looking for some old railroad ties. They have creosote treating on
them, but it is weak due to the age of the ties. Is this a problem when
using them to form raised beds?

Steve

--
"...the man who really counts in the world is the doer, not the mere
critic-the man who actually does the work, even if roughly and imperfectly,
not the man who only talks or writes about how it ought to be done."
Theodore Roosevelt 1891


Wikipedia has this about coal tar creosote, the kind used to preserve
railroad ties:

"The International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC) has determined
that coal tar creosote is probably carcinogenic to humans, based on
adequate animal evidence and limited human evidence. It is instructive
to note that the animal testing relied upon by IARC involved the
continuous application of creosote to the shaved skin of rodents.
After weeks of creosote application, the animals developed cancerous
skin lesions and in one test, lesions of the lung. The United States
Environmental Protection Agency has stated that coal tar creosote is a
possible human carcinogen."

Sounds like a problem to me.

Chris
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Old 09-06-2008, 07:12 PM posted to rec.gardens
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Posts: 104
Default Creosote Ties

I am looking for some old railroad ties. They have creosote treating on
them, but it is weak due to the age of the ties. Is this a problem when
using them to form raised beds?

Steve

--
"...the man who really counts in the world is the doer, not the mere
critic-the man who actually does the work, even if roughly and imperfectly,
not the man who only talks or writes about how it ought to be done."
Theodore Roosevelt 1891


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Old 09-06-2008, 09:14 PM posted to rec.gardens
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Default Creosote Ties

Chris wrote:
On Jun 9, 1:12 pm, "SteveB" toquerville@zionvistas wrote:
I am looking for some old railroad ties. They have creosote treating on
them, but it is weak due to the age of the ties. Is this a problem when
using them to form raised beds?

Steve

--
"...the man who really counts in the world is the doer, not the mere
critic-the man who actually does the work, even if roughly and imperfectly,
not the man who only talks or writes about how it ought to be done."
Theodore Roosevelt 1891


Wikipedia has this about coal tar creosote, the kind used to preserve
railroad ties:

"The International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC) has determined
that coal tar creosote is probably carcinogenic to humans, based on
adequate animal evidence and limited human evidence. It is instructive
to note that the animal testing relied upon by IARC involved the
continuous application of creosote to the shaved skin of rodents.
After weeks of creosote application, the animals developed cancerous
skin lesions and in one test, lesions of the lung. The United States
Environmental Protection Agency has stated that coal tar creosote is a
possible human carcinogen."

Sounds like a problem to me.

Chris


I looked at this before commenting in another ng that I would not worry
about this. Exposure level is important with any toxin or carcinogen.
In animal tests you always overdose to start to get meaningful answers.
Painting it on shaves skin over many weeks is different from the
plant maybe absorbing a few ppb and getting in food.
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Old 09-06-2008, 09:56 PM posted to rec.gardens
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Default Creosote Ties


"Frank" frankdotlogullo@comcastperiodnet wrote in message
...
Chris wrote:
On Jun 9, 1:12 pm, "SteveB" toquerville@zionvistas wrote:
I am looking for some old railroad ties. They have creosote treating on
them, but it is weak due to the age of the ties. Is this a problem when
using them to form raised beds?

Steve

--
"...the man who really counts in the world is the doer, not the mere
critic-the man who actually does the work, even if roughly and
imperfectly,
not the man who only talks or writes about how it ought to be done."
Theodore Roosevelt 1891


Wikipedia has this about coal tar creosote, the kind used to preserve
railroad ties:

"The International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC) has determined
that coal tar creosote is probably carcinogenic to humans, based on
adequate animal evidence and limited human evidence. It is instructive
to note that the animal testing relied upon by IARC involved the
continuous application of creosote to the shaved skin of rodents.
After weeks of creosote application, the animals developed cancerous
skin lesions and in one test, lesions of the lung. The United States
Environmental Protection Agency has stated that coal tar creosote is a
possible human carcinogen."

Sounds like a problem to me.

Chris


I looked at this before commenting in another ng that I would not worry
about this. Exposure level is important with any toxin or carcinogen. In
animal tests you always overdose to start to get meaningful answers.
Painting it on shaves skin over many weeks is different from the plant
maybe absorbing a few ppb and getting in food.


Just do it the lazy farmer way.

http://www.seattleoil.com/Flyers/Earthbox.pdf



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Old 09-06-2008, 10:12 PM posted to rec.gardens
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Default Creosote Ties

On Jun 9, 3:14 pm, Frank frankdotlogullo@comcastperiodnet wrote:
Chris wrote:
On Jun 9, 1:12 pm, "SteveB" toquerville@zionvistas wrote:
I am looking for some old railroad ties. They have creosote treating on
them, but it is weak due to the age of the ties. Is this a problem when
using them to form raised beds?


Steve


--
"...the man who really counts in the world is the doer, not the mere
critic-the man who actually does the work, even if roughly and imperfectly,
not the man who only talks or writes about how it ought to be done."
Theodore Roosevelt 1891


Wikipedia has this about coal tar creosote, the kind used to preserve
railroad ties:


"The International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC) has determined
that coal tar creosote is probably carcinogenic to humans, based on
adequate animal evidence and limited human evidence. It is instructive
to note that the animal testing relied upon by IARC involved the
continuous application of creosote to the shaved skin of rodents.
After weeks of creosote application, the animals developed cancerous
skin lesions and in one test, lesions of the lung. The United States
Environmental Protection Agency has stated that coal tar creosote is a
possible human carcinogen."


Sounds like a problem to me.


Chris


I looked at this before commenting in another ng that I would not worry
about this. Exposure level is important with any toxin or carcinogen.
In animal tests you always overdose to start to get meaningful answers.
Painting it on shaves skin over many weeks is different from the
plant maybe absorbing a few ppb and getting in food.


You're certainly free to do whatever you like. The thought of
surrounding plants I'm going to eat with any sort of known carcinogen-
when there are perfectly good alternatives available- sort of creeps
me out. I would not feed those vegetables to my kid.

Chris
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Old 09-06-2008, 10:52 PM posted to rec.gardens
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Posts: 713
Default Creosote Ties

On Jun 9, 12:50�pm, Chris wrote:
On Jun 9, 1:12 pm, "SteveB" toquerville@zionvistas wrote:

I am looking for some old railroad ties. �They have creosote treating on
them, but it is weak due to the age of the ties. �Is this a problem when
using them to form raised beds?


Steve


--
"...the man who really counts in the world is the doer, not the mere
critic-the man who actually does the work, even if roughly and imperfectly,
not the man who only talks or writes about how it ought to be done."
Theodore Roosevelt 1891


Wikipedia has this about coal tar creosote, the kind used to preserve
railroad ties:

"The International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC) has determined
that coal tar creosote is probably carcinogenic to humans, based on
adequate animal evidence and limited human evidence. It is instructive
to note that the animal testing relied upon by IARC involved the
continuous application of creosote to the shaved skin of rodents.
After weeks of creosote application, the animals developed cancerous
skin lesions and in one test, lesions of the lung. The United States
Environmental Protection Agency has stated that coal tar creosote is a
possible human carcinogen."

Sounds like a problem to me.

Chris


Creosote occurs naturally every time wood burns; forest fires have
occured since well before there's been animal life on this planet and
still. Creosoted RR ties are essentially inert, that's how it
preserves wood... used for ground contact lumber to contain a
vegetable garden they are far safer to humans than living with the
creosote emited from a wood burning stove. Plants are very
discriminating, they don't absorb everything just because it's
there.

If the RR ties are reasonably sound I'd use them, if they are rotten
it really doesn't pay to use them to construct anything that one would
want to look decent and last a while. Real RR ties are very difficult
to work with even when new, they are typically not very consistantly
sized, and not very straight, but mostly they are darn heavy, a ten
footer can easily weigh 300 pounds... they were never meant to be used
as construction lumber... I'd not waste my time and energy
constructing a raised bed garden of any kind of rotten lumber.

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Old 10-06-2008, 01:44 AM posted to rec.gardens
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Posts: 2,265
Default Creosote Ties

In article ,
"SteveB" toquerville@zionvistas wrote:

I am looking for some old railroad ties. They have creosote treating on
them, but it is weak due to the age of the ties. Is this a problem when
using them to form raised beds?

Steve


http://www.epa.gov/opp00001/factshee...relim_risk_ass
ess.htm

2. What is creosote and how is it used?
Creosote is a wood preservative used for commercial purposes only; it
has no registered residential uses. Creosote is obtained from high
temperature distillation of coal tar (itself a mixture of hundreds of
organic substances). Over 100 components in creosote have been
identified. It is used as a fungicide, insecticide, miticide, and
sporicide to protect wood and is applied by pressure methods to wood
products, primarily utility poles and railroad ties. This treated wood
is intended for exterior/outdoor uses only. Its commercial uses include
railroad ties (70%), utility poles (15-20%), and other miscellaneous
commercial uses (10-15%).

Top of page

3. Are there any health risks associated with exposure to
creosote-treated wood?
The risk estimates provided in this risk assessment are of a preliminary
nature and subject to refinement. The process that EPA uses to review
chemicals through reregistration is intended to gather additional
information and input from the public and stakeholders about exposure
and risk that will be used to revise the risk estimates. Based on such
input through this public comment period, EPA will develop a revised
risk assessment and will be able to determine whether or not risk
mitigation measures are needed.

Top of page

4. What safety precautions should one take when handling or coming into
contact with creosote?
Creosote penetrates deeply into and remains in the pressure-treated wood
for a long time. Exposure to creosote may present certain hazards.
Therefore, the following precautions should be taken both when handling
the treated wood and in determining where to use the treated wood. It
should be noted that such exposure usually only occurs when one comes
into contact with railroad ties and/or utility poles.

USE SITE PRECAUTIONS

€ Do not use where frequent or prolonged contact with bare skin can
occur.
€ Do not use in residential settings. In interiors of industrial
buildings, it should be used only for industrial building components
which are in ground contact and subject to decay or insect infestation
and for wood block flooring in industrial settings.
€ Do not use in the interiors of farm buildings where there may be
direct contact with domestic animals or livestock which may bite or lick
the wood.
€ Do not use treated wood for cutting-boards or counter tops.
€ Do not use where it may come into direct or indirect contact with
public drinking water.

HANDLING PRECAUTIONS

€ Dispose of treated wood by ordinary trash collection or burial.
€ Do not burn wood in open fires or in stoves, fireplaces, or
residential boilers because toxic chemicals may be produced as part of
the smoke and ashes.
€ Avoid frequent or prolonged inhalation of sawdust from treated
wood.
€ Avoid frequent or prolonged skin contact with creosote-treated
wood.
€ When handling the wood, wear long-sleeve shirts and long pants and
use gloves impervious to the chemicals.
€ When power-sawing and machining, wear goggles to protect eyes from
flying particles.
€ Wash work clothes separately from other household clothing.
-------

http://www.metrokc.gov/health/hazard/treatedwood.htm

Old railroad ties are frequently used to build raised beds or to terrace
slopes. This wood has been treated with creosote, a product derived from
coal. Creosote has certainly proven itself as wood preservative over a
long period, but because it is toxic and because it has become a
restricted-use pesticide, questions have arisen about its safe use
around plants.

Creosote can volatilize into the air, especially during hot weather, and
plant foliage in the vicinity of the ties may be damaged by the vapors.
It can also leach into the soil near the ties, but it will not be
absorbed by the roots and will therefore not get into the plants'
tissues.

When using railroad ties for raised beds or similar areas, avoid putting
plants too close to the wood. Keeping plants three of four inches away
should prevent damage. Also, don't ever use creosote-treated wood in
interior locations such as greenhouses, since the vapors will damage or
kill plants in them.
--

Billy
Bush and Pelosi Behind Bars
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KVTf...ef=patrick.net
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0aEo...eature=related
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Old 10-06-2008, 04:40 AM posted to rec.gardens
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Default Creosote Ties

On Jun 9, 4:52 pm, Sheldon wrote:
On Jun 9, 12:50�pm, Chris wrote:



On Jun 9, 1:12 pm, "SteveB" toquerville@zionvistas wrote:


I am looking for some old railroad ties. �They have creosote treating on
them, but it is weak due to the age of the ties. �Is this a problem when
using them to form raised beds?


Steve


--
"...the man who really counts in the world is the doer, not the mere
critic-the man who actually does the work, even if roughly and imperfectly,
not the man who only talks or writes about how it ought to be done."
Theodore Roosevelt 1891


Wikipedia has this about coal tar creosote, the kind used to preserve
railroad ties:


"The International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC) has determined
that coal tar creosote is probably carcinogenic to humans, based on
adequate animal evidence and limited human evidence. It is instructive
to note that the animal testing relied upon by IARC involved the
continuous application of creosote to the shaved skin of rodents.
After weeks of creosote application, the animals developed cancerous
skin lesions and in one test, lesions of the lung. The United States
Environmental Protection Agency has stated that coal tar creosote is a
possible human carcinogen."


Sounds like a problem to me.


Chris


Creosote occurs naturally every time wood burns; forest fires have
occured since well before there's been animal life on this planet and
still. Creosoted RR ties are essentially inert, that's how it
preserves wood... used for ground contact lumber to contain a
vegetable garden they are far safer to humans than living with the
creosote emited from a wood burning stove. Plants are very
discriminating, they don't absorb everything just because it's
there.

If the RR ties are reasonably sound I'd use them, if they are rotten
it really doesn't pay to use them to construct anything that one would
want to look decent and last a while. Real RR ties are very difficult
to work with even when new, they are typically not very consistantly
sized, and not very straight, but mostly they are darn heavy, a ten
footer can easily weigh 300 pounds... they were never meant to be used
as construction lumber... I'd not waste my time and energy
constructing a raised bed garden of any kind of rotten lumber.


I am afraid there a few incorrect things here.

First, while "creosote" does appear when burning some types of wood,
it's not the same creosote as those used to preserve RR ties. Wood
creosote was used until recently for medicinal purposes, and has never
been classed a carcinogen. The RR tie creosote is coal tar creosote,
and comes entirely from coal. It has some nasty stuff in it. When I
was a summer employee working for the US Forest Service, we used to
soak pilings in creosote- you know those logs buried in the
campgrounds to keep you from driving all over the place? We were done
up in rubber suits with welder's masks and thick rubber gloves when we
worked around the creosote drum. Maybe RR ties that have sat in the
sun and elements for 20 years or more are safe, but why take the risk?

Second, plants are really not all that discriminating. They really do
absorb almost anything that comes their way. That's why you see lush
greenery around gold and copper and lead mines- they've been planted
to absorb the highly toxic mine tailings. It's also why wetlands are
so important as water filtration sites: those plants absorb darn near
anything that gets dumped in the water. The plants in the Everglades
are toxic as hell after years of absorbing all the garbage Miami and
the sugar plantations in South Florida have dumped into the water.

Chris
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Old 10-06-2008, 04:42 AM posted to rec.gardens
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Posts: 224
Default Creosote Ties

On Jun 9, 7:44 pm, Billy wrote:
In article ,

"SteveB" toquerville@zionvistas wrote:
I am looking for some old railroad ties. They have creosote treating on
them, but it is weak due to the age of the ties. Is this a problem when
using them to form raised beds?


Steve


http://www.epa.gov/opp00001/factshee...te_prelim_risk...
ess.htm

2. What is creosote and how is it used?
Creosote is a wood preservative used for commercial purposes only; it
has no registered residential uses. Creosote is obtained from high
temperature distillation of coal tar (itself a mixture of hundreds of
organic substances). Over 100 components in creosote have been
identified. It is used as a fungicide, insecticide, miticide, and
sporicide to protect wood and is applied by pressure methods to wood
products, primarily utility poles and railroad ties. This treated wood
is intended for exterior/outdoor uses only. Its commercial uses include
railroad ties (70%), utility poles (15-20%), and other miscellaneous
commercial uses (10-15%).

Top of page

3. Are there any health risks associated with exposure to
creosote-treated wood?
The risk estimates provided in this risk assessment are of a preliminary
nature and subject to refinement. The process that EPA uses to review
chemicals through reregistration is intended to gather additional
information and input from the public and stakeholders about exposure
and risk that will be used to revise the risk estimates. Based on such
input through this public comment period, EPA will develop a revised
risk assessment and will be able to determine whether or not risk
mitigation measures are needed.

Top of page

4. What safety precautions should one take when handling or coming into
contact with creosote?
Creosote penetrates deeply into and remains in the pressure-treated wood
for a long time. Exposure to creosote may present certain hazards.
Therefore, the following precautions should be taken both when handling
the treated wood and in determining where to use the treated wood. It
should be noted that such exposure usually only occurs when one comes
into contact with railroad ties and/or utility poles.

USE SITE PRECAUTIONS

€ Do not use where frequent or prolonged contact with bare skin can
occur.
€ Do not use in residential settings. In interiors of industrial
buildings, it should be used only for industrial building components
which are in ground contact and subject to decay or insect infestation
and for wood block flooring in industrial settings.
€ Do not use in the interiors of farm buildings where there may be
direct contact with domestic animals or livestock which may bite or lick
the wood.
€ Do not use treated wood for cutting-boards or counter tops.
€ Do not use where it may come into direct or indirect contact with
public drinking water.

HANDLING PRECAUTIONS

€ Dispose of treated wood by ordinary trash collection or burial.
€ Do not burn wood in open fires or in stoves, fireplaces, or
residential boilers because toxic chemicals may be produced as part of
the smoke and ashes.
€ Avoid frequent or prolonged inhalation of sawdust from treated
wood.
€ Avoid frequent or prolonged skin contact with creosote-treated
wood.
€ When handling the wood, wear long-sleeve shirts and long pants and
use gloves impervious to the chemicals.
€ When power-sawing and machining, wear goggles to protect eyes from
flying particles.
€ Wash work clothes separately from other household clothing.
-------

http://www.metrokc.gov/health/hazard/treatedwood.htm

Old railroad ties are frequently used to build raised beds or to terrace
slopes. This wood has been treated with creosote, a product derived from
coal. Creosote has certainly proven itself as wood preservative over a
long period, but because it is toxic and because it has become a
restricted-use pesticide, questions have arisen about its safe use
around plants.

Creosote can volatilize into the air, especially during hot weather, and
plant foliage in the vicinity of the ties may be damaged by the vapors.
It can also leach into the soil near the ties, but it will not be
absorbed by the roots and will therefore not get into the plants'
tissues.

When using railroad ties for raised beds or similar areas, avoid putting
plants too close to the wood. Keeping plants three of four inches away
should prevent damage. Also, don't ever use creosote-treated wood in
interior locations such as greenhouses, since the vapors will damage or
kill plants in them.
--

Billy
Bush and Pelosi Behind Barshttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KVTfcAyYGg&ref=patrick.nethttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0aEo59c7zU&feature=related


Highly informative post. Thanks.

Chris


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Old 10-06-2008, 02:52 PM posted to rec.gardens
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Default Creosote Ties

"SteveB" toquerville@zionvistas wrote in message
...
I am looking for some old railroad ties. They have creosote treating on
them, but it is weak due to the age of the ties. Is this a problem when
using them to form raised beds?

Steve

--
"...the man who really counts in the world is the doer, not the mere
critic-the man who actually does the work, even if roughly and
imperfectly, not the man who only talks or writes about how it ought to be
done." Theodore Roosevelt 1891


Perhaps your first sentence should have read "I am looking at some old
railroad ties", instead of "looking for".

In my humble opinion, I wouldn't use such near any garden for edibles. That
includes any rain runoff if nearby, with the railroad ties serving some
other purpose. I considered similar with some old utility poles. After
researching creosote, I bowed out using them anywhere near my garden or
mulch bed.
--
Dave


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Old 10-06-2008, 06:37 PM posted to rec.gardens
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Posts: 104
Default Creosote Ties


"Dioclese" NONE wrote in message
m...
"SteveB" toquerville@zionvistas wrote in message
...
I am looking for some old railroad ties. They have creosote treating on
them, but it is weak due to the age of the ties. Is this a problem when
using them to form raised beds?

Steve

--
"...the man who really counts in the world is the doer, not the mere
critic-the man who actually does the work, even if roughly and
imperfectly, not the man who only talks or writes about how it ought to
be done." Theodore Roosevelt 1891


Perhaps your first sentence should have read "I am looking at some old
railroad ties", instead of "looking for".

In my humble opinion, I wouldn't use such near any garden for edibles.
That includes any rain runoff if nearby, with the railroad ties serving
some other purpose. I considered similar with some old utility poles.
After researching creosote, I bowed out using them anywhere near my garden
or mulch bed.
--
Dave


Perhaps your post should have read .......................................
oh, never mind.

Steve


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Old 10-06-2008, 09:43 PM posted to rec.gardens
z z is offline
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Default Creosote Ties

On Jun 9, 1:12*pm, "SteveB" toquerville@zionvistas wrote:
I am looking for some old railroad ties. *They have creosote treating on
them, but it is weak due to the age of the ties. *Is this a problem when
using them to form raised beds?

Steve

--
"...the man who really counts in the world is the doer, not the mere
critic-the man who actually does the work, even if roughly and imperfectly,
not the man who only talks or writes about how it ought to be done."
Theodore Roosevelt 1891


i definitely wouldn't use them for food plant raised beds, or nearby.
and not where there would be a lot of personal contact with myself,
i.e. where i might expect to sit on them while cultivating the bed or
something.

that goes for pressure treated lumber too.

so what do i use? pvc fake wood fence boards...... but it turns out
that vinyl doesn't migrate in the ground or get taken up by plants
much at all.
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Old 12-06-2008, 06:33 AM posted to rec.gardens
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Posts: 5
Default Creosote Ties


"Sheldon" wrote in message
...
On Jun 9, 12:50?pm, Chris wrote:
On Jun 9, 1:12 pm, "SteveB" toquerville@zionvistas wrote:

I am looking for some old railroad ties. ?They have creosote treating on
them, but it is weak due to the age of the ties. ?Is this a problem when
using them to form raised beds?


Steve


--
"...the man who really counts in the world is the doer, not the mere
critic-the man who actually does the work, even if roughly and
imperfectly,
not the man who only talks or writes about how it ought to be done."
Theodore Roosevelt 1891


Wikipedia has this about coal tar creosote, the kind used to preserve
railroad ties:

"The International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC) has determined
that coal tar creosote is probably carcinogenic to humans, based on
adequate animal evidence and limited human evidence. It is instructive
to note that the animal testing relied upon by IARC involved the
continuous application of creosote to the shaved skin of rodents.
After weeks of creosote application, the animals developed cancerous
skin lesions and in one test, lesions of the lung. The United States
Environmental Protection Agency has stated that coal tar creosote is a
possible human carcinogen."

Sounds like a problem to me.

Chris


Creosote occurs naturally every time wood burns; forest fires have
occured since well before there's been animal life on this planet and
still. Creosoted RR ties are essentially inert, that's how it
preserves wood... used for ground contact lumber to contain a
vegetable garden they are far safer to humans than living with the
creosote emited from a wood burning stove. Plants are very
discriminating, they don't absorb everything just because it's
there.

If the RR ties are reasonably sound I'd use them, if they are rotten
it really doesn't pay to use them to construct anything that one would
want to look decent and last a while. Real RR ties are very difficult
to work with even when new, they are typically not very consistantly
sized, and not very straight,


but mostly they are darn heavy, a ten
footer can easily weigh 300 pounds...

Where the **** do you come up with all this information Sheldon?
Oh wait your talking about 10 footers. thats about 230 pounds more than a
8 footer. Never mind



they were never meant to be used
as construction lumber... I'd not waste my time and energy
constructing a raised bed garden of any kind of rotten lumber.


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Old 12-06-2008, 06:53 PM posted to rec.gardens
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Posts: 2,265
Default Creosote Ties

In article ,
"Mike" wrote:

"Sheldon" wrote in message
...
On Jun 9, 12:50?pm, Chris wrote:
On Jun 9, 1:12 pm, "SteveB" toquerville@zionvistas wrote:

I am looking for some old railroad ties. ?They have creosote treating on
them, but it is weak due to the age of the ties. ?Is this a problem when
using them to form raised beds?


Steve


--
"...the man who really counts in the world is the doer, not the mere
critic-the man who actually does the work, even if roughly and
imperfectly,
not the man who only talks or writes about how it ought to be done."
Theodore Roosevelt 1891


Wikipedia has this about coal tar creosote, the kind used to preserve
railroad ties:

"The International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC) has determined
that coal tar creosote is probably carcinogenic to humans, based on
adequate animal evidence and limited human evidence. It is instructive
to note that the animal testing relied upon by IARC involved the
continuous application of creosote to the shaved skin of rodents.
After weeks of creosote application, the animals developed cancerous
skin lesions and in one test, lesions of the lung. The United States
Environmental Protection Agency has stated that coal tar creosote is a
possible human carcinogen."

Sounds like a problem to me.

Chris


Creosote occurs naturally every time wood burns; forest fires have
occured since well before there's been animal life on this planet and
still. Creosoted RR ties are essentially inert, that's how it
preserves wood... used for ground contact lumber to contain a
vegetable garden they are far safer to humans than living with the
creosote emited from a wood burning stove. Plants are very
discriminating, they don't absorb everything just because it's
there.

Oh, hell, I gotta couple of minutes to burn, so's here goes.
Creosote: a dark brown oil distilled from coal tar and used as a wood
preservative. It contains a number of phenols, cresols, and other
organic compounds.
€ a colorless, pungent, oily liquid, containing creosol and other
compounds, distilled from wood tar and used as an antiseptic.

Basically it is a family of phenols and polyphenols. The phenols
attack the amine portion in an amino-acid and that is important
because amino-acids are the building blocks of proteins. Proteins
are found in cell walls, enzymes, and muscles. Animal skins are
preserved with a form of polyphenol called tannin which renders
the hide toxic to micro-organisms that would like to degrade it.

Unlike tannin, which comes from the bark of oak trees, there is
no fixed provenance for creosote. It was never meant for ingestion,
so it isn't checked for contaminants. One thing is certain though,
it is used to kill micro-flora and fauna, such as one would find in
an organic garden.

So, if you are already growing your garden with Miracle Grow or some
other chemfert, then there is little to lose (plant wise) using
creosote. Human health wise, it is Russian roulette (but hey,
there's only one bullet).

No one says you had to be organic.


If the RR ties are reasonably sound I'd use them, if they are rotten
it really doesn't pay to use them to construct anything that one would
want to look decent and last a while. Real RR ties are very difficult
to work with even when new, they are typically not very consistantly
sized, and not very straight,


but mostly they are darn heavy, a ten
footer can easily weigh 300 pounds...

Where the **** do you come up with all this information Sheldon?
Oh wait your talking about 10 footers. thats about 230 pounds more than a
8 footer. Never mind



they were never meant to be used
as construction lumber... I'd not waste my time and energy
constructing a raised bed garden of any kind of rotten lumber.

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