NO TIME FOR poor quality tools
 

Dwight Sipler wrote:



Some cheap tools are cost effective. I am death on shovels (or shovel
handles, anyway), so I generally buy the $7 versions. One time I bought
a $30 shovel, fiberglass handle, etc. The fiberglass didn't hold up well
in the sun and after a couple of winters it was all split and hard to
hold. It lasted less time than the wooden handled $7 versions. PS: I
paint the shovel handles bright red so I can find them. Adds another
dollar to the cost (the paint wears off and has to be renewed
occasionally). The red handled shovel makes a good marker to let me know
where I left off working in a row. I can see it 400' away.



I buy all my hand tools at Sears, NOTHING beats the Craftsman deal. I
bought a digging fork almost twenty years ago, last year I returned the
SIXTH one for a new one. Another half dozen large pruners have been
returned and a couple of shovels. You can't beat it, buy it ONCE and
you're done, when it breaks take it back. They cost a bit more initally
but make up for it in the long run.

NO TIME FOR poor quality tools
 

On Fri, 25 Apr 2003 21:26:52 GMT, Other Brother Kevin
wrote:

[...]

I buy all my hand tools at Sears, NOTHING beats the Craftsman deal. I
bought a digging fork almost twenty years ago, last year I returned the
SIXTH one for a new one. Another half dozen large pruners have been
returned and a couple of shovels. You can't beat it, buy it ONCE and
you're done, when it breaks take it back. They cost a bit more initally
but make up for it in the long run.


On the other hand, I had a pair of craftsman locking pliers that were
very poorly made. The jaws were misaligned and cheaply tack welded and
they were balky to operate and very prone to pinching the fingers. I
took them back to Sears and they offered to replace them with another
pair that was equally crappy. I tossed them and bought a pair of
Vice-grip brand pliers that are far superior in every way. What good
is a lifetime replacement warranty if the tool breaks when you need it
most or if they replace one crappy tool with another that is just as
bad?

NO TIME FOR poor quality tools
 

Ken Schumm wrote:

On Fri, 25 Apr 2003 21:26:52 GMT, Other Brother Kevin
wrote:

[...]


I buy all my hand tools at Sears, NOTHING beats the Craftsman deal. I
bought a digging fork almost twenty years ago, last year I returned the
SIXTH one for a new one. Another half dozen large pruners have been
returned and a couple of shovels. You can't beat it, buy it ONCE and
you're done, when it breaks take it back. They cost a bit more initally
but make up for it in the long run.



On the other hand, I had a pair of craftsman locking pliers that were
very poorly made. The jaws were misaligned and cheaply tack welded and
they were balky to operate and very prone to pinching the fingers. I
took them back to Sears and they offered to replace them with another
pair that was equally crappy. I tossed them and bought a pair of
Vice-grip brand pliers that are far superior in every way. What good
is a lifetime replacement warranty if the tool breaks when you need it
most or if they replace one crappy tool with another that is just as
bad?




My above returns are not due to crappy manufacture. These tools see as
much work as some contractors tools. My property is a field of stones,
some over 1000 pounds and I don't have a tractor.
I also have a wood lot that was logged off a few years before I bought
the place so I've been cleaning and thinning.

Kevin

NO TIME FOR poor quality tools
 

Other Brother Kevin wrote:
Dwight Sipler wrote:

Some cheap tools are cost effective. I am death on shovels (or shovel
handles, anyway), so I generally buy the $7 versions. One time I bought
a $30 shovel, fiberglass handle, etc. The fiberglass didn't hold up well
in the sun and after a couple of winters it was all split and hard to
hold. It lasted less time than the wooden handled $7 versions. PS: I
paint the shovel handles bright red so I can find them. Adds another
dollar to the cost (the paint wears off and has to be renewed
occasionally). The red handled shovel makes a good marker to let me know
where I left off working in a row. I can see it 400' away.

I buy all my hand tools at Sears, NOTHING beats the Craftsman deal. I
bought a digging fork almost twenty years ago, last year I returned the
SIXTH one for a new one. Another half dozen large pruners have been
returned and a couple of shovels. You can't beat it, buy it ONCE and
you're done, when it breaks take it back. They cost a bit more initally
but make up for it in the long run.

me too ...

I'm on my third loppers (the ones with the yellow handles) since
Christmas ...

glad I bought them too. Nothing else would have lasted that long
- and then be replaced for free.

Maren

NO TIME FOR poor quality tools
 

I buy all my hand tools at Sears, NOTHING beats the Craftsman deal. I
bought a digging fork almost twenty years ago, last year I returned the
SIXTH one for a new one. Another half dozen large pruners have been
returned and a couple of shovels. You can't beat it, buy it ONCE and
you're done, when it breaks take it back. They cost a bit more initally
but make up for it in the long run.

I agree... they even gurantee their Craftsman garden hoses... I've taken
back 5 or 6 over the years... even the ones the gardner got with his
mower.

I have TONS of Craftsman hand tools I initally bought between the mid
60's to early 70's I've busted or worn out bunches of times... there are
some common size screwdrivers, sockets, ratchets, dikes, cold chisels &
pin punches I've had replaced under warranty several times a year. Most
of the stuff in moderate to heavy nearly continuous commercial use.

Some of my more critical stuff I have duplicates or even triplicates
of... so I'm not stopped should they fail. It also saves a lot of hassel
when Sears is out of stock when I go in with brokens.

I also have some tool need's that exceed Craftsman's quality offerings,
or that Craftsman just doesn't make... Snap On takes up the slack in
most of these cases... pretty much the same warranty, but you gotta go
find one of their trucks for replacemants. Snap On stuff is all big $$$.

Be aware not all Craftsman tools are covered under the same warranty...
power tools and most, but not all cutting tools are different... read
the labeles or ask first. 'Hand tools' pretty much are all covered
forever.

Just don't ever loose any Craftsman stuff... they don't cover that.

That warranty alone has saved me thousands of dollars... sure hope Sears
hangs on, seems like the place is always void of customers these days.

Erik

poor quality tools
 

Wooden long handled tools get a wrap of electrical tape.
Keeps the wood reasonably sound and doesn't seem to cause blisters
like varnish does.
Mostly I use black , other colors are available.

NO TIME FOR poor quality tools
 

In article , wrote:

Dwight Sipler wrote:



Some cheap tools are cost effective. I am death on shovels (or shovel
handles, anyway), so I generally buy the $7 versions. One time I bought
a $30 shovel, fiberglass handle, etc. The fiberglass didn't hold up well
in the sun and after a couple of winters it was all split and hard to
hold. It lasted less time than the wooden handled $7 versions. PS: I
paint the shovel handles bright red so I can find them. Adds another
dollar to the cost (the paint wears off and has to be renewed
occasionally). The red handled shovel makes a good marker to let me know
where I left off working in a row. I can see it 400' away.



I buy all my hand tools at Sears, NOTHING beats the Craftsman deal. I
bought a digging fork almost twenty years ago, last year I returned the
SIXTH one for a new one. Another half dozen large pruners have been
returned and a couple of shovels. You can't beat it, buy it ONCE and
you're done, when it breaks take it back. They cost a bit more initally
but make up for it in the long run.




OTOH, you could buy quality tools *once* and use them for your lifetime,
then pass them along to your spawn.

I have nothing against Craftman tools at all. I just live 6 hours away from
a Sears store these days and only go up to Anchorage once a year, at most.
So if I break my 9/16" spanner and don't have another one, I'm screwed.

Anyone who ever holds a Snap-On ratchet in their hot little hand will never
buy another Craftsman ratchet, IMO.

Jan

NO TIME FOR poor quality tools
 

(Partially snipped)

Anyone who ever holds a Snap-On ratchet in their hot little hand will
never
buy another Craftsman ratchet, IMO.

That's the key. Holding the ratchet. Where does the average joe six pack
go to buy Snap-On?
I agree about the superior quality of these tools, though. My pal is a
diesel mechanic, and uses this brand.
They are really a pleasure to use. But man do they cost! But he makes good
money at his job, gets a tool allownace, and can depreciate the costs on his
income taxes, not so for most of us.
Dave

Jan

NO TIME FOR poor quality tools
 

In misc.rural Maren Purves wrote:
Other Brother Kevin wrote:

I buy all my hand tools at Sears, NOTHING beats the Craftsman deal. I
bought a digging fork almost twenty years ago, last year I returned the
SIXTH one for a new one.

I'm on my third loppers (the ones with the yellow handles) since
Christmas ...

Am I the only one who buys better tools and doesn't have to return them
at all? I just don't get this whole "They break alot, and this is a
feature" sales thing. I'd rather have a tool that stands up to long
work and won't break 6 times.

I mean, 3rd replacement since December?

NO TIME FOR poor quality tools
 

For what you'd pay for a new Craftsman at Sears (Simpson or Roebucks) you
could get a used Snap-On at a pawnshop.

Should it ever break...

That's when you'll have to hunt down the ever elusive Snap-On truck. They
have a route. All you have to do is start calling auto repair shops and find
one that knows what day of the month the Snap-On truck shows up and stake
the place out.

RamDog

"DaveG" wrote in message
...





(Partially snipped)

Anyone who ever holds a Snap-On ratchet in their hot little hand will
never
buy another Craftsman ratchet, IMO.

That's the key. Holding the ratchet. Where does the average joe six pack
go to buy Snap-On?
I agree about the superior quality of these tools, though. My pal is a
diesel mechanic, and uses this brand.
They are really a pleasure to use. But man do they cost! But he makes
good
money at his job, gets a tool allownace, and can depreciate the costs on
his
income taxes, not so for most of us.
Dave

Jan

NO TIME FOR poor quality tools
 

NO TIME FOR poor quality tools
 

On Fri, 25 Apr 2003 21:26:52 GMT, Other Brother Kevin
wrote:


I buy all my hand tools at Sears, NOTHING beats the Craftsman deal. I
bought a digging fork almost twenty years ago, last year I returned the
SIXTH one for a new one. Another half dozen large pruners have been
returned and a couple of shovels. You can't beat it, buy it ONCE and
you're done, when it breaks take it back. They cost a bit more initally
but make up for it in the long run.

I am going to do this also. I go through pitch forks like nothing. I invested
in stainless steel and bent a tine! I'm up to Sears this week to buy me another
one.

Victoria

NO TIME FOR poor quality tools
 

On 26 Apr 2003 13:11:26 GMT, wrote:
In misc.rural Maren Purves wrote:
Other Brother Kevin wrote:
I buy all my hand tools at Sears, NOTHING beats the Craftsman deal. I
bought a digging fork almost twenty years ago, last year I returned the
SIXTH one for a new one.

I'm on my third loppers (the ones with the yellow handles) since
Christmas ...

Am I the only one who buys better tools and doesn't have to return them
at all? I just don't get this whole "They break alot, and this is a
feature" sales thing. I'd rather have a tool that stands up to long
work and won't break 6 times.

I mean, 3rd replacement since December?

For sure. I'm still using some tools my grandfather bought (used) as
a young man. But frankly, all tools aren't like that. Some do tend to
get "used up" fairly quickly. You need to treat them as consumables
rather than investments.

Then there are the tools you can buy for $20 instead of $189 that
hold up much better than the price difference would indicate. I'm
thinking of the Horrible Freight angle grinders here. Quality they're
not, work they do. And I can afford to have spares if one does fail
in the middle of a job.

Buying quality (= expensive) tools isn't always the best thing to
do. I tend to look at value for the dollar. That often means cheap
tools, sometimes it means expensive tools, but rarely does it
mean Sears tools. They're neither cheap nor high quality. The
lifetime guarantee means an unexpected trip to town in the middle
of a job likely as not.

Gary

NO TIME FOR poor quality tools
 

On Sat, 26 Apr 2003 02:04:13 -0900, (Jan Flora) wrote:


OTOH, you could buy quality tools *once* and use them for your lifetime,
then pass them along to your spawn.

I do buy quality tools. I use my tools frequently. They get way too warn over
time to hand down in any condition I'd be able to use, as a gardener. I've had
everything from Elliott Coleman designed tools, Smith and Hawkins, and up. I've
paid 45 dollars on shovels and 10 dollars. Both wore out or got chipped. I
have black soil, Texas T...ya'll come back now.


I have nothing against Craftman tools at all. I just live 6 hours away from
a Sears store these days and only go up to Anchorage once a year, at most.
So if I break my 9/16" spanner and don't have another one, I'm screwed.

Anyone who ever holds a Snap-On ratchet in their hot little hand will never
buy another Craftsman ratchet, IMO.

Jan

NO TIME FOR poor quality tools
 

On 26 Apr 2003 13:11:26 GMT, wrote:

Am I the only one who buys better tools and doesn't have to return them
at all? I just don't get this whole "They break alot, and this is a
feature" sales thing. I'd rather have a tool that stands up to long
work and won't break 6 times.

I mean, 3rd replacement since December?

How much do you garden? How big are your beds and how often do you work them,
and move plants around and change things? I am constantly honing my garden with
transplanting and moving around. Making new beds. Running into major rockage.
If you are a weekend gardener, good tools may last a lifetime and not break a
lot, but I do not have that same experience.

NO TIME FOR poor quality tools
 

animaux wrote in message
...
On 26 Apr 2003 13:11:26 GMT, wrote:

Am I the only one who buys better tools and doesn't have to return them
at all? I just don't get this whole "They break alot, and this is a
feature" sales thing. I'd rather have a tool that stands up to long
work and won't break 6 times.

I bought a yard broom way back in the sixties and apart from three new heads
and two new handles it is as good as it was the day I bought it:-)

NO TIME FOR poor quality tools
 

poor quality tools
 

Pity no one has handles covered in "Scotchlite"(The stuff they use on road
signs and on trimming on things like fireman's coats) on their tools, then
all you would need to do to find the lost tool is to go out at night with a
good flash light, they would show up so easily.
--
David Hill
Abacus Nurseries
www.abacus-nurseries.co.uk

NO TIME FOR poor quality tools
 

On Sat, 26 Apr 2003 06:22:01 -0500, "DaveG"
wrote:






(Partially snipped)

Anyone who ever holds a Snap-On ratchet in their hot little hand will
never
buy another Craftsman ratchet, IMO.

That's the key. Holding the ratchet. Where does the average joe six pack
go to buy Snap-On?

Gee, just a couple click away is:
www.snapon.com or www.ebay.com

I agree about the superior quality of these tools, though. My pal is a
diesel mechanic, and uses this brand.

There used to be a bigger difference between Snap On and other tools
but not anymore. Snap On is excellent but S-K, ACE Professional,
NAPA, Kobalt (Lowes) are equivalent quality in wrenches, ratchets,
sockets, etc but not as wide a selection but much lower cost.

Craftsman is a little lower in quality but not as much as you'd think.
(a little hunkier form factor but probably about as strong as Snap On
which is a tad more compact and can get into tighter spaces).

A lot of mechanics are saying hell with Snap On and buying Crapsman.


They are really a pleasure to use. But man do they cost! But he makes good
money at his job, gets a tool allownace, and can depreciate the costs on his
income taxes, not so for most of us.

You're right. Snap On is double the market price for equivalent
quality but that's based on:

1. The 1:1 service from a dealer. The dealer can't operate off retail
margins. Mechanics hate to spend their weekends shopping for tools.
That 2X price is worth it to them to get localized one stop shopping
and credit and beside that, the dealers are usually good salesmen or
they don't survive.

Joe six pack doesn't get that service so why pay for it.

2. Snap On is a "cult". The "pecking order" of mechanics is often a
function of who has the largest Snap On "hot dog stand' w/the most
tools.


Dave

Jan

NO TIME FOR poor quality tools
 

davefr wrote in
:

On Sat, 26 Apr 2003 06:22:01 -0500, "DaveG"
wrote:






(Partially snipped)

Anyone who ever holds a Snap-On ratchet in their hot little hand
will
never
buy another Craftsman ratchet, IMO.

That's the key. Holding the ratchet. Where does the average joe six
pack go to buy Snap-On?

Gee, just a couple click away is:
www.snapon.com or www.ebay.com

I agree about the superior quality of these tools, though. My pal is
a
diesel mechanic, and uses this brand.

There used to be a bigger difference between Snap On and other tools
but not anymore. Snap On is excellent but S-K, ACE Professional,
NAPA, Kobalt (Lowes) are equivalent quality in wrenches, ratchets,
sockets, etc but not as wide a selection but much lower cost.

Craftsman is a little lower in quality but not as much as you'd think.
(a little hunkier form factor but probably about as strong as Snap On
which is a tad more compact and can get into tighter spaces).

A lot of mechanics are saying hell with Snap On and buying Crapsman.


They are really a pleasure to use. But man do they cost! But he
makes good money at his job, gets a tool allownace, and can depreciate
the costs on his income taxes, not so for most of us.

You're right. Snap On is double the market price for equivalent
quality but that's based on:

1. The 1:1 service from a dealer. The dealer can't operate off retail
margins. Mechanics hate to spend their weekends shopping for tools.
That 2X price is worth it to them to get localized one stop shopping
and credit and beside that, the dealers are usually good salesmen or
they don't survive.

Joe six pack doesn't get that service so why pay for it.

2. Snap On is a "cult". The "pecking order" of mechanics is often a
function of who has the largest Snap On "hot dog stand' w/the most
tools.

As a female that bought many tools (company paid for) Snap-on tools are
weighted well and feel good in your hand. I also ike Proto tools. I buy
Snap-on for my personal use. I call them on the phone and a truck shows up
with my tools.

NO TIME FOR poor quality tools
 

On 26 Apr 2003 13:11:26 GMT, wrote:


Am I the only one who buys better tools and doesn't have to return them
at all? I just don't get this whole "They break alot, and this is a
feature" sales thing. I'd rather have a tool that stands up to long
work and won't break 6 times.

I mean, 3rd replacement since December?

"Better tools" are where you find them.

I found a Chinese-made hand ax at Wal-Mart, and inspected it closely. Good
handle, properly tempered at the edge. Hadn't seen one of quality this high
in years. I bought it for $6, used it for years. Still have it.

Found Chinese-made shovels at a hardware store, excellent handle and temper.
$5.

I have not been able to find inexpensive hand tools. I demand the best
quality screwdrivers, socket sets, and pliers. Only Craftsman, Crescent (my
favorite) and Channel Lock (quality is fading) are good enough to win a spot
in my tool box.

Bob

NO TIME FOR poor quality tools
 

On Sat, 26 Apr 2003 19:02:15 GMT, animaux wrote:


everything from Elliott Coleman designed tools, Smith and Hawkins, and up. I've
paid 45 dollars on shovels and 10 dollars. Both wore out or got chipped. I
have black soil, Texas T...ya'll come back now.

Ewww...gumbo. I hate that sticky black dirt. It's like shoveling un-chewed
bubble gum. I think you could make armor-piercing tank shells out of it when
dried in the sun.

Bob

poor quality tools
 

The message
from "david" contains these words:

Pity no one has handles covered in "Scotchlite"(The stuff they use on road
signs and on trimming on things like fireman's coats) on their tools, then
all you would need to do to find the lost tool is to go out at night with a
good flash light, they would show up so easily.

Funnily enough, I've got a forester's treeplanting spade made by
Chieftain Forge (Scotland, possibly Grangemouth) which has a something
very like that on the shaft; about the only tool that never got lost in
our last (very large) garden. It has a narrow blade infinitely useful
for all sorts of other jobs.

Janet.

NO TIME FOR poor quality tools
 

On Sun, 27 Apr 2003 07:56:08 -0500, Bob Adkins wrote:


Ewww...gumbo. I hate that sticky black dirt. It's like shoveling un-chewed
bubble gum. I think you could make armor-piercing tank shells out of it when
dried in the sun.

Bob

Yeah, well! It's also loaded with minerals and life now that I put a few dozen
yards of compost on it and I do work it all by hand at the proper time. No
tillers for me.

Not to change the subject, but finally this will be the first year in this
garden where plants are maturing in their places and I can see the light at the
end of the tunnel of constantly planting and honing.

Trees are growing, shrubs are growing, things are flowering and are mature.
Perennials look great. Strawberries have fruits the size of a half dollar coin.

I love my garden now. It's really getting there.

V

NO TIME FOR poor quality tools
 

In misc.rural Warren wrote:
wrote:

Am I the only one who buys better tools and doesn't have to return
them
at all? I just don't get this whole "They break alot, and this is a
feature" sales thing.

Well, you probably are one of the few who use a tool the way it's
designed. Most of us not only don't own more than one general use hammer
(as opposed to the correct hammer for various jobs), and a lot of the
time we don't bother getting the hammer out. We use whatever solid
object is handy as a hammer.

I'm not sure about that. Yes, I have an awful lot of tools, and almost
always try to use the appropriate tool for a job; breaker bar for stuck
bolts, the correct hammer, and so on. But, I'm pretty sure I'm not
alone here - I'd suspect that the majority of folks who have tools
that they rely on, will have and use them properly?

Also, with many tools, there are parts that are meant to wear-out, or
even break under stress. Wooden handles come to mind. It's simply
easier, and not much more expensive, to replace the whole tool than it
is to buy a new handle, and repair the tool.

It is? When I need a new handle, I go down to Farm & Fleet, pick one up,
drill/drive the old one out, and install the new handle. 15 minute job,
tops.

And finally, to many people, what the tool is used for is the activity
they are focused on, not maintaining the tool. When I work in the
garden, I tend to work until I'm ready to drop. I barely have the energy
to collect the tools and put them away, let alone clean them and
maintain them. On the other hand, you may fall into the category of
people who love their tools, and the activity is just a way to show how
you can use the tool.

Hm. I was always taught that the job isn't over until the tools are
put away.

To each his own. Personally I'm glad that there are inexpensive tools
that are never intended to be repaired that are sturdier than toys. It
means I don't have to feel guilty when I replace my shovel instead of
repairing it after I've used it to move a boulder instead of getting a
bar that was designed for the job. I can pound that nail with the side
of my ratchet wrench. I can open the paint can with the screwdriver, and
I can use the tiny bypass trimmer to hack through a woody growth twice
the size it was designed to snip. No way I could do this if my tools
were expensive. And I don't have to set aside time for tool maintenance,
either.

Just because they're expensive doesn't mean they don't get used,
and occasionally abused. I figure the difference is that the expensive
one will take more use and more abuse.


In my father's day, my attitude towards tools would have been in the
minority. These days, thanks to those inexpensive tools, I may be in the
majority.

I don't know - how about it? Are these two ways of looking at tools a
clean distinction, and who here falls into which category? I'll buy
a cheap tool for a one-time job, sometimes, but usually prefer to
"do it right".

Dave Hinz

NO TIME FOR poor quality tools
 

In misc.rural animaux wrote:
On 26 Apr 2003 13:11:26 GMT, wrote:

I mean, 3rd replacement since December?

How much do you garden? How big are your beds and how often do you work them,
and move plants around and change things?

The veggie garden is maybe 20x30 feet, there's about, er, 6 flower beds
around the house & yard. The big work I do with a backhoe/loader, or one
of the little tractors. The rest is by hand, mostly with tools which are
older than I am.

I am constantly honing my garden with
transplanting and moving around. Making new beds. Running into major rockage.
If you are a weekend gardener, good tools may last a lifetime and not break a
lot, but I do not have that same experience.

I think we're coming at this from two different perspectives. For me,
the heavy work is done by hydraulics, so I think we're talking about
two very different situations here.

Dave Hinz

NO TIME FOR poor quality tools
 

Jan Flora wrote:

Anyone who ever holds a Snap-On ratchet in their hot little hand will never
buy another Craftsman ratchet, IMO.


Absolutely! And its not just ratchets - all of their tools have a
quality feel that's unmatched by any other brand. (except for the
knuckle busters - why oh why did Snap-on stoop so low as to make a
crescent wrench???)

Many years ago I worked in a Snap-On plant - oh the sight of a tub full
of sparkling chromed wrenches....


AL

NO TIME FOR poor quality tools
 

On Wed, 30 Apr 2003 03:36:42 -0900, (Jan Flora) wrote:

In article ,
wrote:

On Sun, 27 Apr 2003 21:33:02 GMT, animaux wrote:


I love my garden now. It's really getting there.

Mine's coming along. After a very wet winter and spring, I suddenly need
rain. Nothing like a big garden to stop the rain. Maybe I should wash my
vehicles. That should do it...

Bob

Get a neighbor to start mowing his hay fields. That works around here, when
we need rain : )

Jan

Or, get a rain barrel under each downspout. Since we bought rain barrels, plant
life has been looking much better. They use chloramine in our drinking water.
I wouldn't even drink it, so plants certainly don't appreciate the high pH and
levels of chloramine. With as little as 1/4 inch of rain, our five, 75 gallon
barrels fill to the top. Our neighboring city buys them from the same supplier
as Garden Supply Catalog, and resells them at a great loss for 45 dollars. I
believe they run 140 dollars in the catalog. Maybe your city has a water
collection system in place, too.

NO TIME FOR poor quality tools
 

On 28 Apr 2003 20:22:39 GMT, wrote:


That is true; some of it is branding. But, they did get a reputation
for a valid reason.

Same was true for Craftsman until their tools became rougher with lesser
quality.

Bob

NO TIME FOR poor quality tools
 

AL wrote:

Jan Flora wrote:

Anyone who ever holds a Snap-On ratchet in their hot little hand will never
buy another Craftsman ratchet, IMO.

Absolutely! And its not just ratchets - all of their tools have a
quality feel that's unmatched by any other brand. (except for the
knuckle busters - why oh why did Snap-on stoop so low as to make a
crescent wrench???)

Many years ago I worked in a Snap-On plant - oh the sight of a tub full
of sparkling chromed wrenches....

AL

I worked in the auto repair biz for 20 years and would tend to
agree....BUT..the cost is also something to consider. The feel and
operation of a Snap-On combo wrench is beyond compare, but the prices
are inflated. The same story goes with hand ratchets, versus other
less-expensive brands. I have broken/worn out dozens of Craftsman
ratchets, and although they were all repaired/replaced without question,
the time wasted in returning them was not insignificant.

On the other hand, I own lots of Craftsman wrenches and have never had
to replace any of them due to defects. Granted, I will still reach for
the Snap-On first.

I have also been lured by the cheap prices of Chinese tools.....and been
burned more than once on that stuff. The quality is SO poor that it
probably would never make it past QC anywhere else. Had a vise I bought
that had been filled and sanded before painting because the casting was
so porous that no one would have bought it. Unfortunately, I found this
out after it broke. I also have a Chinese grinder that has wheel shrouds
and tool rests made out of sheet metal slightly thicker than a beer can.

Gotta stay away from eBay,

Will

NO TIME FOR poor quality tools
 

In article ,
says...
In misc.rural davefr wrote:

Craftsman is a little lower in quality but not as much as you'd think.
(a little hunkier form factor but probably about as strong as Snap On
which is a tad more compact and can get into tighter spaces).

For tight spaces, the angle of rotation of the handle needed to get a
"click" on the ratchet can matter. Finer teeth=more chance of getting
that one almost-unreachable bolt out. Beats doing the "pull it out, turn
the socket 1/12th of a turn & re-insert" trick over and over. The
snap-on (and probably others) ratchets have finer teeth than the
Craftsman, and I can think of one particular starter bolt on one
vehicle of mine that is impossible without a very small arc of spin.

I have a Craftsman ratchet that has incredibly fine teeth (I
think they're double teeth). It's likely 30 years old and they
certainly haven't made them in a long time. It has the release
button and the knurled wheel on the face. I wish they still made
these! I'd love to have a 1/2" drive.


2. Snap On is a "cult".
HOS"pecking order" of mechanics is often a
function of who has the largest Snap On "hot dog stand' w/the most
tools.

That is true; some of it is branding. But, they did get a reputation
for a valid reason.

Sure, though the reason isn't the tool. Snapon service sells the
tools. IIRC, Snapon killed a lot of their business by allowing
too many franchises. Wasn't there a class-action suit against
them by their franchisees?

--
Keith

NO TIME FOR poor quality tools
 

In article ,
says...
In misc.rural Keith R. Williams wrote:
In article ,
says...
(regarding SnapOn)
That is true; some of it is branding. But, they did get a reputation
for a valid reason.

Sure, though the reason isn't the tool. Snapon service sells the
tools.

Sorry, but I disagree. The current line of Craftsman has good service
too, but they're not as robust or comfortable as the snapon tools.

I didn't know Sears went to mechanics to sell tools. I didn't
know they came around to the mechanics and replaced defective
tools.

The service is fine, but the service doesn't help on a sunday night when yet
another craftsman ratchet goes stupid on you. I have only had one failure
of a SnapOn ratchet, and that was my own fault.

I've never had a Craftsman drive fail either. I've one for
thirty years. One of my screwdrivers has closer to 40 years on
it. I've used a friend's Snap-ons. Snap-on makes good tools no
doubt, though Craftsman *hand* tools are not that bad.

The geometry of their sockets is novel and quite effective as well...there
are real differences, not just in sales.

The major difference is the snap-on sockets are thinner while
being at least as strong. They're finishing is somewhat better
too. However, it's the service that sells Snap-on. Their
customers aren't home-owners and weekend mechanics.

IIRC, Snapon killed a lot of their business by allowing
too many franchises. Wasn't there a class-action suit against
them by their franchisees?

Dunno about the corporate end of things, I just recognize and use good tools.

--
Keith

NO TIME FOR poor quality tools
 

In misc.rural Keith R. Williams wrote:
In article ,
says...

Sorry, but I disagree. The current line of Craftsman has good service
too, but they're not as robust or comfortable as the snapon tools.

I didn't know Sears went to mechanics to sell tools. I didn't
know they came around to the mechanics and replaced defective
tools.

I didn't say they do; they replace broken tools, which is reasonably good
service. My point is, I don't care if they'd come out & polish them
weekly for me, I still have no use for a tool that's more likely to
fail. I've had craftsman sockets split up the sides, using hand pressure.
Not good.

The service is fine, but the service doesn't help on a sunday night when yet
another craftsman ratchet goes stupid on you. I have only had one failure
of a SnapOn ratchet, and that was my own fault.

I've never had a Craftsman drive fail either. I've one for
thirty years. One of my screwdrivers has closer to 40 years on
it.

Perhaps they were making them better 40 years ago?

I've used a friend's Snap-ons. Snap-on makes good tools no
doubt, though Craftsman *hand* tools are not that bad.


The geometry of their sockets is novel and quite effective as well...there
are real differences, not just in sales.

The major difference is the snap-on sockets are thinner while
being at least as strong.

Nope. The geometry is different; the corners are somewhat further from
the center of the fastner than you would expect, which minimizes rounding of
seized bolts & nuts. I've used them to take off some pretty ugly looking
(rounded) fasteners, and as they work on the flats and not just the corners,
it works great. I seem to recall they have a patent on that particular
socket geometry; I'm sure a poke around on their website would be useful
but I'm just in for a little bit before heading back outside to put the
tiller on the garden tractor ;)

They're finishing is somewhat better
too. However, it's the service that sells Snap-on. Their
customers aren't home-owners and weekend mechanics.

Great service would be useless if the tool quality didn't back it up.

Dave Hinz

NO TIME FOR poor quality tools
 

My point is, I don't care if they'd come out & polish them
weekly for me, I still have no use for a tool that's more likely to
fail. I've had craftsman sockets split up the sides, using hand pressure.
Not good.

i notice that lately sears tools seem to do that.... compared to the
older sears(craftsman tools i bought 35 yrs. ago, the quality does not
seem to be in the newer craftsman tools... the sides of the sockets seem
thinner, and not finished as smooth as the older stuff)???????

NO TIME FOR poor quality tools
 

wrote in message
...
In misc.rural Keith R. Williams wrote:
In article ,
says...

Sorry, but I disagree. The current line of Craftsman has good service
too, but they're not as robust or comfortable as the snapon tools.

I didn't know Sears went to mechanics to sell tools. I didn't
know they came around to the mechanics and replaced defective
tools.

I didn't say they do; they replace broken tools, which is reasonably good
service. My point is, I don't care if they'd come out & polish them
weekly for me, I still have no use for a tool that's more likely to
fail. I've had craftsman sockets split up the sides, using hand pressure.
Not good.

The service is fine, but the service doesn't help on a sunday night
when yet
another craftsman ratchet goes stupid on you. I have only had one
failure
of a SnapOn ratchet, and that was my own fault.

I've never had a Craftsman drive fail either. I've one for
thirty years. One of my screwdrivers has closer to 40 years on
it.

Perhaps they were making them better 40 years ago?

I've used a friend's Snap-ons. Snap-on makes good tools no
doubt, though Craftsman *hand* tools are not that bad.


The geometry of their sockets is novel and quite effective as
well...there
are real differences, not just in sales.

The major difference is the snap-on sockets are thinner while
being at least as strong.

Nope. The geometry is different; the corners are somewhat further from
the center of the fastner than you would expect, which minimizes rounding
of
seized bolts & nuts. I've used them to take off some pretty ugly looking
(rounded) fasteners, and as they work on the flats and not just the
corners,
it works great. I seem to recall they have a patent on that particular
socket geometry; I'm sure a poke around on their website would be useful
but I'm just in for a little bit before heading back outside to put the
tiller on the garden tractor ;)

They're finishing is somewhat better
too. However, it's the service that sells Snap-on. Their
customers aren't home-owners and weekend mechanics.

Great service would be useless if the tool quality didn't back it up.

Dave Hinz


I'll just chime in to agree with Dave. Snap on and Mac (I own them both and
consider them fairly equal) are a step above the rest. Both offer six and
twelve point sockets and just about no one else does. I buy mine off ebay
or work a deal with the guy on the truck. Their prices are higher but IMHO
so is the quality. Never popped a Snap on or Mac but have trashed just
about every other brand working at someone else's shop. Craftsman isn't in
my shop. And along those lines Kenmore isn't in my laundry room or kitchen
anymore either.

NO TIME FOR poor quality tools
 

Tom Jaszewski wrote:
Please translate that one? Other than Sears being f-ed up, what's
wrong with Kenmore/Whirlpool? Both are consistently at the top of
their class in Consumer Reports..

Kenmore and Whirlpool are not synonymous. Kenmore is nothing more than a
store brand slapped onto appliances built by someone else. Whirlpool, GE
and Maytag are just some of the companies that make various products
that carry the Kenmore label. The question becomes: Are Kenmore versions
less expensive than the name brand because they take short-cuts for
Sears, or do they cost less because Sears passes along a buy-in-bulk
costs to the consumer." My guess is that it's the former.

--
Warren H.

==========
Disclaimer: My views reflect those of myself, and not my
employer, my friends, nor (as she often tells me) my wife.
Any resemblance to the views of anybody living or dead is
coincidental. No animals were hurt in the writing of this
response -- unless you count my dog who desperately wants
to go outside now.

NO TIME FOR poor quality tools
 

In article %3kta.493707$Zo.109026@sccrnsc03,
Warren wrote:

Kenmore and Whirlpool are not synonymous. Kenmore is nothing more than a
store brand slapped onto appliances built by someone else. Whirlpool, GE
and Maytag are just some of the companies that make various products
that carry the Kenmore label. The question becomes: Are Kenmore versions
less expensive than the name brand because they take short-cuts for
Sears, or do they cost less because Sears passes along a buy-in-bulk
costs to the consumer." My guess is that it's the former.


I am no big lover of Sears, but let me take a moment to mention that in
some cases the Kenmore version of a product is more featureful than the
non-Kenmore product. An example of this is my garbage disposal, a Kenmore.
The Kenmore version of the disposal (made by Insinkerator) has an
autoreversing feature that is not found in the equivalent model sold under
the Insinkerator label for roughly the same price.


Manufacturers make Kenmore products to Sears specifications. It might be
true that short-cuts are taken sometimes, but it is not necessarily true.
Personally, I think that the Kenmore and non-Kenmore product is often
identical and the price usually reflects that.


Dimitri

NO TIME FOR poor quality tools
 

about every other brand working at someone else's shop. Craftsman isn't in
my shop. And along those lines Kenmore isn't in my laundry room or kitchen
anymore either.

How about Whirlpool? I think they are labeling Kenmore just now. Did you
know that Sears manufactures absolutely nothing?

Different manufacturers make Craftsman hand tools as well. Some have been
excellent, some pretty bad over the years. I don't go by the brand name. I
go by the quality. You DO know a good tool when you see one, don't you? When
you see good tools at a great price, swallow your pride and pay less for
them.

At times, Craftsman quality has been fabulous, and may be again some day. I
have a 25 year old socket set that is every bit as good as Snap-On. Wouldn't
take nothing for it.

Right now, I must agree that Craftsman quality is not too good overall. I
did recently buy a good Craftsman vise, and I like those laminated pliers.
Man, those babies are pricey. I'll have to wait for a sale or something.

Bob

NO TIME FOR poor quality tools
 

On Mon, 5 May 2003 05:10:50 +0000 (UTC), (D.
Gerasimatos) wrote:


I am no big lover of Sears, but let me take a moment to mention that in
some cases the Kenmore version of a product is more featureful than the
non-Kenmore product. An example of this is my garbage disposal, a Kenmore.

True!

My Sears Kitchen Aid dish washer is stainless inside and out. I could not
find a comparable Kitchen Aid model.

Bob