Charlie wrote:

On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 19:09:58 -0400, "Paul E.
Lehmann" wrote:


Get a life, Charlie. Offer CONSTRUCTIVE advice
or join the ranks of the "holier than thou"

Yawn...OK, I will...join the ranks of the holier
than thou, that is.

And sorry to say, Paul, I'll post as I see fit,
according to my
"agenda" and not according to your demands. I
also intend to keep my life and help my
grandchildren keep theirs by doing what I can to
keep morons from contaminating their food with
poison.

For
example, there are a LOT of bee keepers who use
chemicals every bit as risky as the OP used.

Golly, I guess that makes it just hunky-dory
okie-dokie to spread
poison about the planet. Thanks for the heads
up and the excellant argument justifying the use
of such, Paul.

Tell me, how do you feel about irradiated food?
:-)

I gots me all sorts of them kinds of questions I
would like to ponder
you head with, but I thinks I gots yer number
already, son. ;-)


Has ANY one of you doom and gloomers ever given
the advice such as CONTACT YOUR LOCAL
AGRICULTURE EXTENSION AGENT and ask for THEIR
advice and opinion.

"I'm from the gummint and I am here to help
you".....uh huh, oh yeah!

They do have some good plans for hogsheds,
though.

This statement of yours shows your lack of
understanding or care about such things as
three-legged frogs and declining bird
populations and cancers and all sorts of funky
shit that is happening on account of,
well, you know. But I didn't get this
information from monsatano or dow or bayer or
any of their front guys, like the usda and fda
and....so I guess it is just doom and gloom
bullshit.

Of course not. You have
your own agenda.

Yep, that agenda being the speaking out about
the use of toxins that contribute to the
toxically over-burdened planet and that
contribute to the bodily toxic load we and our
children and grandchildren must suffer on
account of the ignorance and greed of people
such as yourself and the sockpuppet and all the
minions of the agrochemical cartel who advocate
the use of toxins.

Hmmm....I wonder how wine was produced before
the advent of carbaryl?


Doom, Doom, Doom....can you hear the drums,
Paul?

Charlie

"You just caught me on a good night. I'm doing
what I was made to do - and I've got a feeling
I'm going to do it even better this time"
-

Captain

Billy

Tyne

Charlie

I gave the OP advice on how to obtain the answer
to his question - NOT - NOT I repeat my personal
opinion.

To summarize I have said:

1) Contact the manufacturer. If they say it is
safe that does not mean that one should stop
there. If they say chuck the grapes then by all
means do it.

2) I suggested calling the viticulture experts at
Virginia tech and or making the wine and sending
them a sample for testing.

3) Contacting the OP's local agriculture
extension agent.

YOU have given YOUR personal opinion based on
nothing but shit house rumors and NOT science.

Sherwin wrote in
:

Jangchub wrote:
On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 19:04:13 -0400, "Paul E. Lehmann"
wrote:


Why don't you offer constructive advice instead of
bashing. I would be willing to bet YOU are
equally guilty of being ignorant on a specific
topic equally as hazardous or even more so.

It would seem an almost unanimous decision and opinion
here that you chuck the grapes you applied a very toxic
poison to. Sevin is advertised using lies, lies and more
lies and people have been gardening for decades, some
professionally, some avidly, some used to use these
pesticides who no longer use them because they found out
the truth about them over the years.

Constructive as I can be without crawling on my hands and
knees begging:

Do NOT use these tainted grapes. Chalk it up to a big
mistake, period.

Yes, it's all a conspiracy. They are out to get us.

mostly your money. they certainly don't care if the food is
safe to eat or if the product poisons water or soil. profit is
the sole motive. if you choose to give them more profit,
that's your business, but keep your nasty poisoned food away
(far away) from me & my farm. thanks.

lee
--
Last night while sitting in my chair
I pinged a host that wasn't there
It wasn't there again today
The host resolved to NSA.

On Jul 22, 7:04 pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" wrote:
Kay Lancaster wrote:

"Paul J. Dudley" wrote:
Last month ( mid June ) I had applied Seven
dust to my grapevine due to Japanese Beatle
infestation. I applied by hand ( gloved ). I
grabbed a handfull at a time and just tossed
it across the whole of the foliage and grape
clusters.

Didn't you read the directions... that's the
dumbest method for applying Sevin.

The dust was given to me in a mason jar by my
girlfriends father,
complete with no instructions. Just toss it
across the whole of the vine like he does his
peach trees. So that is what I did.

You'll probably take this as more sarcastic
criticism, but stories like this are why I'm not
sure most people should be allowed to use other
than a flyswatter as a pesticide.

You accepted an unlabeled jar of unknown
chemical of unknown concentration,
with no instructions, and you didn't know how
to apply it.

How do you know it was carbaryl, and not, say,
Paris green? Or maybe one
of the herbicides? Or flour?

Some day, a stunt like this is going to bite you
badly. This might be that.

Why don't you offer constructive advice instead of
bashing. I would be willing to bet YOU are
equally guilty of being ignorant on a specific
topic equally as hazardous or even more so.

You know, that WAS constructive, but you're too defensive atm to see
it. Next time you want to use a chemical on a crop,

1. Make sure it has a label
2. Read the label, so you know the concentration,
3. Read the instructions, so that you:
4. Know how to apply it.

Finally, you screwed up. Be an adult, take your lumps because you
deserve 'em, say "You're right and now I know better." Don't whinge
about it. The world won't always be a touch-feely warm little place
where someone can make everything ok.

Chris

On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 22:45:55 -0700, Billy wrote:

In article , Charlie wrote:

Hmmm....I wonder how wine was produced before the advent of carbaryl?

It was pretty good when they used amphoras and fumarias. But then they
severed the wine in these very pretty lead glazed cups and a
Gothic night descended on Europe. Things (flavor) started looking
up again in the mid-1600s when cork stoppers came into use. In the
mean, time beer and wine saved Europe from the main diseases of
ground water. The same function that tea served in the East.

Paul should check with the nearest ag consultant but my understanding is
that nothing harmful to man can survive fermentation. All the same,
you've been a naughty boy Paul. I know it wasn't your intent to
bring about the downfall of Western Civilization (such as it is).
You've got to be careful about unintended consequences. See that
this doesn't happen again.

I understand that they also burned sulfur wicks in their casks much
like adding sodium metabisulfite as many ( can't say 'all' - might start
another flame war ) now do.

But ... Yes .. I promise to be more careful in the future ( .. so I won't
start the world whining again ).

I will chech with the aggies. I have written gardentech.com ( the
company that forced me to use their dust ) and am waiting their
reply.

= Paul =

Chris wrote:

On Jul 22, 7:04 pm, "Paul E. Lehmann"
wrote:
Kay Lancaster wrote:

"Paul J. Dudley" wrote:
Last month ( mid June ) I had applied
Seven dust to my grapevine due to Japanese
Beatle infestation. I applied by hand (
gloved ). I grabbed a handfull at a time
and just tossed it across the whole of the
foliage and grape clusters.

Didn't you read the directions... that's
the dumbest method for applying Sevin.

The dust was given to me in a mason jar by
my girlfriends father,
complete with no instructions. Just toss it
across the whole of the vine like he does
his peach trees. So that is what I did.

You'll probably take this as more sarcastic
criticism, but stories like this are why I'm
not sure most people should be allowed to use
other than a flyswatter as a pesticide.

You accepted an unlabeled jar of unknown
chemical of unknown concentration,
with no instructions, and you didn't know
how to apply it.

How do you know it was carbaryl, and not,
say,
Paris green? Or maybe one
of the herbicides? Or flour?

Some day, a stunt like this is going to bite
you
badly. This might be that.

Why don't you offer constructive advice instead
of
bashing. I would be willing to bet YOU are
equally guilty of being ignorant on a specific
topic equally as hazardous or even more so.

You know, that WAS constructive, but you're too
defensive atm to see
it. Next time you want to use a chemical on a
crop,

1. Make sure it has a label
2. Read the label, so you know the
concentration, 3. Read the instructions, so that
you: 4. Know how to apply it.

Finally, you screwed up. Be an adult, take your
lumps because you
deserve 'em, say "You're right and now I know
better." Don't whinge
about it.

Please tell me HOW I screwed up by advising the OP
to:

1) talk to the folks at Virginia Tech and possibly
submit a sample for their lab to analyze

2) talk to his county agriculture agent and or to

3) get information from the manufacturer.

Some county agriculture agencies have programs for
certification and education on the use of
pesticides and fungicides.

My advice was to get the FACTS and was NOT based
on some knee jerk reaction like those you
expouse.



The world won't always be a
touch-feely warm little place where someone can
make everything ok.

Chris

In article ,
"Paul J. Dudley" wrote:

On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 22:45:55 -0700, Billy wrote:

In article , Charlie wrote:

Hmmm....I wonder how wine was produced before the advent of carbaryl?

It was pretty good when they used amphoras and fumarias. But then they
severed the wine in these very pretty lead glazed cups and a
Gothic night descended on Europe. Things (flavor) started looking
up again in the mid-1600s when cork stoppers came into use. In the
mean, time beer and wine saved Europe from the main diseases of
ground water. The same function that tea served in the East.

Paul should check with the nearest ag consultant but my understanding is
that nothing harmful to man can survive fermentation. All the same,
you've been a naughty boy Paul. I know it wasn't your intent to
bring about the downfall of Western Civilization (such as it is).
You've got to be careful about unintended consequences. See that
this doesn't happen again.

I understand that they also burned sulfur wicks in their casks much
like adding sodium metabisulfite as many ( can't say 'all' - might start
another flame war ) now do.

But ... Yes .. I promise to be more careful in the future ( .. so I won't
start the world whining again ).

I will chech with the aggies. I have written gardentech.com ( the
company that forced me to use their dust ) and am waiting their
reply.

= Paul =


Sulfur candles were used before there was a written language. As luck
would have it, SO2 is heavier than air. Sulfur wicks are still used to
burn in barrels before they are stored empty although the trend is
towards compressed gas.
--

Billy
Bush and Pelosi Behind Bars
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KVTf...ef=patrick.net
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0aEo...eature=related

On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 05:28:15 -0700, Chris wrote:

On Jul 22, 7:04 pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" wrote:
Kay Lancaster wrote:

"Paul J. Dudley" wrote:
Last month ( mid June ) I had applied Seven
dust to my grapevine due to Japanese Beatle
infestation. I applied by hand ( gloved ). I
grabbed a handfull at a time and just tossed
it across the whole of the foliage and grape
clusters.

Didn't you read the directions... that's the
dumbest method for applying Sevin.

The dust was given to me in a mason jar by my
girlfriends father,
complete with no instructions. Just toss it
across the whole of the vine like he does his
peach trees. So that is what I did.

You'll probably take this as more sarcastic
criticism, but stories like this are why I'm not
sure most people should be allowed to use other
than a flyswatter as a pesticide.

You accepted an unlabeled jar of unknown
chemical of unknown concentration,
with no instructions, and you didn't know how
to apply it.

How do you know it was carbaryl, and not, say,
Paris green? Or maybe one
of the herbicides? Or flour?

Some day, a stunt like this is going to bite you
badly. This might be that.

Why don't you offer constructive advice instead of
bashing. I would be willing to bet YOU are
equally guilty of being ignorant on a specific
topic equally as hazardous or even more so.

You know, that WAS constructive, but you're too defensive atm to see
it. Next time you want to use a chemical on a crop,

1. Make sure it has a label
2. Read the label, so you know the concentration,
3. Read the instructions, so that you:
4. Know how to apply it.

Finally, you screwed up. Be an adult, take your lumps because you
deserve 'em, say "You're right and now I know better." Don't whinge
about it. The world won't always be a touch-feely warm little place
where someone can make everything ok.

Chris

OK.. You're 100% correct. I goofed - f'd up - etc.

Checking with the fellow who gave me the dust - Sevin-5%. Being is
he is 85 yo and farmed all his life, when he said to toss the stuff, I
did as he suggested.

I have written to gardentech.com ( the makers of Sevin-5 ) and am
waiting for a reply. I checked with my neighbor who uses the stuff and
read the instructions on the back and of course it said to use
appropriet dispenser. It also said that the preharvest interval was 7
days for grapes. Looking through www.gardentech.com/sevin_fastfacts.asp

Q : How does Sevin control insects?
A: Sevin has a dual mode-of-action - it works on contact and through
ingestion. Sevin is non-systemic, which means it does not penetrate
plant tissue - it stays on the outside. After controlling the
targeted pest, Sevin is easily broken down in the environment.

I know, I know now - day late an' a buck short... I should have done
the necessary reading ahead of time etc. And I should have told Mr Red "
Just toss it on - are you crazy ol' man! - do you know how them posters
will growl if I don't take all precautions and need advice because I
didn't follow instructions and protocol..."

I've used newsgroups in one form or other since DEC-NOTES. I can
honestly say that I never did pick apart everything a poster wrote that
I found fault with. If I couldn't offer some form of suggestion or help,
I move on to the next post. And then I remember the flame wars that
started taking place - people who just loved to tear everything apart and
find fault. Mispelled words, improper grammar, you name it - not having
a damned thing to do with the posters original query. Pre-spam spammers.
But it's ok. Take what I need - leave the rest. And I am not referring to
your own reply, there was useful input offered. Thank you - it will help
in the future - but really did not focus on my query - grapes good or bad
now that I f'd up.

= Paul =

On Jul 23, 9:01 am, "Paul E. Lehmann" wrote:
Chris wrote:
On Jul 22, 7:04 pm, "Paul E. Lehmann"
wrote:
Kay Lancaster wrote:

"Paul J. Dudley" wrote:
Last month ( mid June ) I had applied
Seven dust to my grapevine due to Japanese
Beatle infestation. I applied by hand (
gloved ). I grabbed a handfull at a time
and just tossed it across the whole of the
foliage and grape clusters.

Didn't you read the directions... that's
the dumbest method for applying Sevin.

The dust was given to me in a mason jar by
my girlfriends father,
complete with no instructions. Just toss it
across the whole of the vine like he does
his peach trees. So that is what I did.

You'll probably take this as more sarcastic
criticism, but stories like this are why I'm
not sure most people should be allowed to use
other than a flyswatter as a pesticide.

You accepted an unlabeled jar of unknown
chemical of unknown concentration,
with no instructions, and you didn't know
how to apply it.

How do you know it was carbaryl, and not,
say,
Paris green? Or maybe one
of the herbicides? Or flour?

Some day, a stunt like this is going to bite
you
badly. This might be that.

Why don't you offer constructive advice instead
of
bashing. I would be willing to bet YOU are
equally guilty of being ignorant on a specific
topic equally as hazardous or even more so.

You know, that WAS constructive, but you're too
defensive atm to see
it. Next time you want to use a chemical on a
crop,

1. Make sure it has a label
2. Read the label, so you know the
concentration, 3. Read the instructions, so that
you: 4. Know how to apply it.

Finally, you screwed up. Be an adult, take your
lumps because you
deserve 'em, say "You're right and now I know
better." Don't whinge
about it.

Please tell me HOW I screwed up by advising the OP
to:

1) talk to the folks at Virginia Tech and possibly
submit a sample for their lab to analyze

2) talk to his county agriculture agent and or to

3) get information from the manufacturer.

Some county agriculture agencies have programs for
certification and education on the use of
pesticides and fungicides.

My advice was to get the FACTS and was NOT based
on some knee jerk reaction like those you
expouse.

The world won't always be a
touch-feely warm little place where someone can
make everything ok.

Chris

My mistake. I should have written that to the original poster. You
provided sound advice. Sorry for the mixup.

Chris

On Mon, 21 Jul 2008 15:18:03 -0400, Paul J. Dudley wrote:

Last month ( mid June ) I had applied Seven dust to my grapevine
due to Japanese Beatle infestation. I applied by hand ( gloved ).
I grabbed a handfull at a time and just tossed it across the whole
of the foliage and grape clusters. Here it is mid July and I still
see some rather rich deposits of the dust sitting on the clusters.
As these grapes ( type unknown ) are reaching ripeness they will
no doubt be harvested within the next 2 weeks to make wine. Will
the residual Seven dust pose any health threats at this point ? I've
tried rinsing with a garden hose but to no avail. It is rather "caked"
in some areas. There might have been some moisture on the grapes
when I slung the seven dust causing it to do so.

TIA

Paul

I would like to thank all ( even flamers ) for their replies. Too many
to reply to all at this point ( persons who had questions ) and things
have really gotten totally blown out of proportion.

I have written GardenTech and am waiting their reply. I've been to
their site and now I know that the preharvest interval is 7 days for
grapes. According to them:
Q : How does Sevin control insects?
A: Sevin has a dual mode-of-action - it works on contact and through
ingestion. Sevin is non-systemic, which means it does not penetrate
plant tissue - it stays on the outside. After controlling the
targeted pest, Sevin is easily broken down in the environment.
( http://www.gardentech.com/sevin_fastfacts.asp#11G )
And I will write my local aggie extension service about my situation.

Yes I made quite a few mistakes in my endevour as pointed out by so many.
And yes I did receive a lot of good input and good constructive critism.

As far as polluting the world with my careless recklessness, I will
correct my ways.

Moving to NC from MA I knew nothing about all this pesticide,
herbicide and chemical fertilizer business. Here I found myself
surrounded by crops of all kinds. The food belt.. And when those
around me suggested Roundup around the house and anywhere my
mower can't hit I thought they were crazy or lazy. Pesticides - what's a
few bugs. I tried inventing my own pepper-soap solutions at first. And
chemical fertilizers, no way.

I saw the farmers out there spraying all kinds of stuff on them fields.
It scared me - if I can smell it - I'm ingesting it. Not long after I met
my girlfriend and her daddy - an 85 yo farmer with hundreds of acre
that he still farmed. I ended up helping him on his farm. I never
knew so many chemical odors existed. But that man could make crops.
And that man is 85 yo and still farming ( he still climbs the corral gate
instead of swinging it open ). And it was there that I learned that down
in these parts (Sandhills)them weeds and bugs will take over without the
use of chemicals. And although I haven't totally lost my fear of them, I
began to see them as a necessary evil. And when I check out veggies in
the local markets - I know what I'm eating. Yes I wash my store bought
veggies, but one never knows for sure.

I guess we can put this post to rest now. To the flamers - flame on.
To those who actually wanted to help I thank you all for your input.
If you had questions unanswered I appologize for not answering
( one person asked what type grape - not known. I got the vine 5
years ago from my neighbor who knew nothing about it. He was
trying to get rid of his vine but gave me a cutting. It is a white
variety, takes on a golden hue when ripe and very sweet. Very
prolific producer and quite vigorous. Berries grow to about 5/8
inch when ripe, tightly packed clusters 4 - 8 inches in length.
Early ripening - end of July to mid August. Fruity tasting wine when
semi dry. Not sure what else to add ).

= Paul =

In article ,
"Paul J. Dudley" wrote:

On Mon, 21 Jul 2008 15:18:03 -0400, Paul J. Dudley wrote:

Last month ( mid June ) I had applied Seven dust to my grapevine
due to Japanese Beatle infestation. I applied by hand ( gloved ).
I grabbed a handfull at a time and just tossed it across the whole
of the foliage and grape clusters. Here it is mid July and I still
see some rather rich deposits of the dust sitting on the clusters.
As these grapes ( type unknown ) are reaching ripeness they will
no doubt be harvested within the next 2 weeks to make wine. Will
the residual Seven dust pose any health threats at this point ? I've
tried rinsing with a garden hose but to no avail. It is rather "caked"
in some areas. There might have been some moisture on the grapes
when I slung the seven dust causing it to do so.

TIA

Paul

I would like to thank all ( even flamers ) for their replies. Too many
to reply to all at this point ( persons who had questions ) and things
have really gotten totally blown out of proportion.

I have written GardenTech and am waiting their reply. I've been to
their site and now I know that the preharvest interval is 7 days for
grapes. According to them:
Q : How does Sevin control insects?
A: Sevin has a dual mode-of-action - it works on contact and through
ingestion. Sevin is non-systemic, which means it does not penetrate
plant tissue - it stays on the outside. After controlling the
targeted pest, Sevin is easily broken down in the environment.
( http://www.gardentech.com/sevin_fastfacts.asp#11G )
And I will write my local aggie extension service about my situation.

Yes I made quite a few mistakes in my endevour as pointed out by so many.
And yes I did receive a lot of good input and good constructive critism.

As far as polluting the world with my careless recklessness, I will
correct my ways.

Moving to NC from MA I knew nothing about all this pesticide,
herbicide and chemical fertilizer business. Here I found myself
surrounded by crops of all kinds. The food belt.. And when those
around me suggested Roundup around the house and anywhere my
mower can't hit I thought they were crazy or lazy. Pesticides - what's a
few bugs. I tried inventing my own pepper-soap solutions at first. And
chemical fertilizers, no way.

I saw the farmers out there spraying all kinds of stuff on them fields.
It scared me - if I can smell it - I'm ingesting it. Not long after I met
my girlfriend and her daddy - an 85 yo farmer with hundreds of acre
that he still farmed. I ended up helping him on his farm. I never
knew so many chemical odors existed. But that man could make crops.
And that man is 85 yo and still farming ( he still climbs the corral gate
instead of swinging it open ). And it was there that I learned that down
in these parts (Sandhills)them weeds and bugs will take over without the
use of chemicals. And although I haven't totally lost my fear of them, I
began to see them as a necessary evil. And when I check out veggies in
the local markets - I know what I'm eating. Yes I wash my store bought
veggies, but one never knows for sure.

I guess we can put this post to rest now. To the flamers - flame on.
To those who actually wanted to help I thank you all for your input.
If you had questions unanswered I appologize for not answering
( one person asked what type grape - not known. I got the vine 5
years ago from my neighbor who knew nothing about it. He was
trying to get rid of his vine but gave me a cutting. It is a white
variety, takes on a golden hue when ripe and very sweet. Very
prolific producer and quite vigorous. Berries grow to about 5/8
inch when ripe, tightly packed clusters 4 - 8 inches in length.
Early ripening - end of July to mid August. Fruity tasting wine when
semi dry. Not sure what else to add ).

= Paul =

Basic premise I learned from the early things like VAX notes. With
these electronic communications best practice is to assume you are
writing to your best friend. Some of my friends are idiots and some are
not. Discerning which is which is too much for me who just likes to rub
or bend elbows on occasion. Still if I detect offensive I yield and
help the other go by. Chinese phi lo stuff. Perhaps with a little help
push )

Bill

--
Garden in shade zone 5 S Jersey USA

On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 11:20:17 -0400, Bill wrote:

In article ,
"Paul J. Dudley" wrote:

On Mon, 21 Jul 2008 15:18:03 -0400, Paul J. Dudley wrote:

Last month ( mid June ) I had applied Seven dust to my grapevine
due to Japanese Beatle infestation. I applied by hand ( gloved ).
I grabbed a handfull at a time and just tossed it across the whole
of the foliage and grape clusters. Here it is mid July and I still
see some rather rich deposits of the dust sitting on the clusters.
As these grapes ( type unknown ) are reaching ripeness they will
no doubt be harvested within the next 2 weeks to make wine. Will
the residual Seven dust pose any health threats at this point ? I've
tried rinsing with a garden hose but to no avail. It is rather "caked"
in some areas. There might have been some moisture on the grapes
when I slung the seven dust causing it to do so.

TIA

Paul

I would like to thank all ( even flamers ) for their replies. Too many
to reply to all at this point ( persons who had questions ) and things
have really gotten totally blown out of proportion.

I have written GardenTech and am waiting their reply. I've been to
their site and now I know that the preharvest interval is 7 days for
grapes. According to them:
Q : How does Sevin control insects?
A: Sevin has a dual mode-of-action - it works on contact and through
ingestion. Sevin is non-systemic, which means it does not penetrate
plant tissue - it stays on the outside. After controlling the
targeted pest, Sevin is easily broken down in the environment.
( http://www.gardentech.com/sevin_fastfacts.asp#11G )
And I will write my local aggie extension service about my situation.

Yes I made quite a few mistakes in my endevour as pointed out by so many.
And yes I did receive a lot of good input and good constructive critism.

As far as polluting the world with my careless recklessness, I will
correct my ways.

Moving to NC from MA I knew nothing about all this pesticide,
herbicide and chemical fertilizer business. Here I found myself
surrounded by crops of all kinds. The food belt.. And when those
around me suggested Roundup around the house and anywhere my
mower can't hit I thought they were crazy or lazy. Pesticides - what's a
few bugs. I tried inventing my own pepper-soap solutions at first. And
chemical fertilizers, no way.

I saw the farmers out there spraying all kinds of stuff on them fields.
It scared me - if I can smell it - I'm ingesting it. Not long after I met
my girlfriend and her daddy - an 85 yo farmer with hundreds of acre
that he still farmed. I ended up helping him on his farm. I never
knew so many chemical odors existed. But that man could make crops.
And that man is 85 yo and still farming ( he still climbs the corral gate
instead of swinging it open ). And it was there that I learned that down
in these parts (Sandhills)them weeds and bugs will take over without the
use of chemicals. And although I haven't totally lost my fear of them, I
began to see them as a necessary evil. And when I check out veggies in
the local markets - I know what I'm eating. Yes I wash my store bought
veggies, but one never knows for sure.

I guess we can put this post to rest now. To the flamers - flame on.
To those who actually wanted to help I thank you all for your input.
If you had questions unanswered I appologize for not answering
( one person asked what type grape - not known. I got the vine 5
years ago from my neighbor who knew nothing about it. He was
trying to get rid of his vine but gave me a cutting. It is a white
variety, takes on a golden hue when ripe and very sweet. Very
prolific producer and quite vigorous. Berries grow to about 5/8
inch when ripe, tightly packed clusters 4 - 8 inches in length.
Early ripening - end of July to mid August. Fruity tasting wine when
semi dry. Not sure what else to add ).

= Paul =

Basic premise I learned from the early things like VAX notes. With
these electronic communications best practice is to assume you are
writing to your best friend. Some of my friends are idiots and some are
not. Discerning which is which is too much for me who just likes to rub
or bend elbows on occasion. Still if I detect offensive I yield and
help the other go by. Chinese phi lo stuff. Perhaps with a little help
push )

Bill

Bill ... Did you work for DEC ? I started working at DEC in 82 at the
Mill ( Maynard MA ). Worked from 82 - 96 ( got hit by the next to last
wave of layoffs - before the were bought by Compaq ). Began as
a mech designer - left as a Sr Info Sys Spec ( supporting VAX/VMS and
then OpenVMS, Ultrix/UNIX ). Had a heart attack in 95 in the middle
of an ALL-IN-1 trouble call - how rude. Got canned a year later with
the rest of the burnouts and broken down misfits.

Jus' thought I'd ask...

= Paul =

In article ,
"Paul J. Dudley" wrote:



Bill ... Did you work for DEC ? I started working at DEC in 82 at the
Mill ( Maynard MA ). Worked from 82 - 96 ( got hit by the next to last
wave of layoffs - before the were bought by Compaq ). Began as
a mech designer - left as a Sr Info Sys Spec ( supporting VAX/VMS and
then OpenVMS, Ultrix/UNIX ). Had a heart attack in 95 in the middle
of an ALL-IN-1 trouble call - how rude. Got canned a year later with
the rest of the burnouts and broken down misfits.

Jus' thought I'd ask...

= Paul =

At one time in the VAX heyday I could walk down a hall and see a
expert in computer science. This In a large company from Delaware.
My boss told me to take care of making sure folks about the world had
access to RS1. Seems RS1 needed a $. So I was able to grant access to
many folks and I pointed out that LYNX was available at the $. Lynx =
pre graphical interface to the internet. Mexican engineers flipped out
in a joyous manner. Those DEC folks with physicists about did a great
job in removing their need to be around. SAD.
I ran two international newsletters until my boss¹s boss¹s etc
bragged then a VP of the company said ³What² shut me down as I was just
the lowest level employee. I know what ALL-IN-one is don¹t miss it ).

Peter Mroz or Roy Beatty ring a pleasant bell?

Hope the heart is treating you well I know what CABG is.

Bill

--
Garden in shade zone 5 S Jersey USA

Paul J. Dudley wrote:

On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 22:45:55 -0700, Billy wrote:

In article
,
Charlie wrote:

Hmmm....I wonder how wine was produced before
the advent of carbaryl?

It was pretty good when they used amphoras and
fumarias. But then they severed the wine in
these very pretty lead glazed cups and a Gothic
night descended on Europe. Things (flavor)
started looking up again in the mid-1600s when
cork stoppers came into use. In the mean, time
beer and wine saved Europe from the main
diseases of ground water. The same function
that tea served in the East.

Paul should check with the nearest ag
consultant but my understanding is that nothing
harmful to man can survive fermentation. All
the same, you've been a naughty boy Paul. I
know it wasn't your intent to bring about the
downfall of Western Civilization (such as it
is). You've got to be careful about unintended
consequences. See that this doesn't happen
again.

I understand that they also burned sulfur
wicks in their casks much
like adding sodium metabisulfite as many (
can't say 'all' - might start another flame war
) now do.

But ... Yes .. I promise to be more careful in
the future ( .. so I won't start the world
whining again ).

I will chech with the aggies. I have written
gardentech.com ( the company that forced me to
use their dust ) and am waiting their reply.

= Paul =

Paul, since you are making wine I offer the
following information.

"Organic wine" may be hazardous to your health -
depending on the wine makers practices.

For example, if SO2 is not used, if the pH of the
must is above 3.5, if there is extended contact
with the lees, If cultured wine yeast and ML
bacteria are not used then the probability of the
formation of carcinogens is enhanced.

Here is a post I contributed to the wine making
news group:

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I always look for articles indicating positive
health benefits of drinking wine and indeed there
are many. I recently came across an article in
"Practical Winery & Vineyard" by Robert Tracy
with the heading of "Human health concerns
associated with wine microorganisms" (pp 96-98).

The partial information I summarize below is NOT
an attempt to start religious wars over technique
or scare anyone but to raise some concerns that
we as wine makers/growers should know.

Personally, I believe there are "probably" more
health related issues in a can of soda than some
of the material discussed below but perhaps we
can make better wine if we are aware of some of
these facts.

Summary and quotes:

"From a winemaking perspective, there are two
types of compounds produced by wine microbes that
have health implications for the consumer:
biogenic amines and ethyl carbamate.**Biogenic
amines have been shown to cause negative
physiological effects in allergic humans (such as
headaches, nausea, hot flashes), while ethyl
carbamate is considered to be a probably
carcinogen to humans.**The*probable*carcinogenic
properties of ethyl carbamate are based on
studies with experimental animals, there is not
direct evidence of it causing cancer in humans."

"The concentration and type of biogenic amines
vary greatly in wines; however, generally red
wines contain significantly more than white
wines.**In*addition,*there*appears*to*be*a*direct
correlation between elevated biogenic amines in
wine, wine spoilage constituents (such as acetic
acid, ethyl acetate, butyric acid, acetoin, and
higher alcohol compounds), and malolactic
fermentation."

Because ethyl carbamate is a probable carcinogen,
it is becoming the focus of international
regulation, and so its formation must be managed
properly both in the vineyard and during the
winemaking process."

"Even though both yeast and bacteria can generate
precursors for ethyl carbamate formation, urea
produced from wine yeast is thought to be the
major precursor."

Factors that affect formation

"Throughout the winemaking process, a whole host
of factors can influence the formation of
biogenic amines including:

1)**initial*microbial*populations*present*on
grapes;

2)**presence*of*precursor*amino*acids*in*grape
juice;

3)**ageing*of*wine*on*wither*yeast*lees*(sur*lie
ageing) or lees following malolactic
fermentation;

4)**extended*grape*maceration;

5)**spontaneous*malolactic*fermentation*by
indigenous lactic acid bacteria;

6)**number*of*lactic*acid*bacteria*that*are
decarboxylase-positive:

7)**wine*pH;

8)**concentration*of*sulfur*dioxide*(SO2)
following malolactic fermentation and during
ageing;

9)**winery*sanitation*practices;

10)**yeast*strain;*and*

11)**fining*practices*(fining*white*wines*with
bentonite may remove biogenic amines).

Among these factors, it has been demonstrated that
malolactic fermentation is the primary stage for
biogenic amine formation during the winemaking
process.

Ethyl carbamate formation is affected by the
following factors:

1)**argine*content*of*grapes;

2)**concentration*of*ethanol;

3)**nutrient*additions*to*must,*during*both
alcoholic and malolactic fermentaitons;

4)**yeast*straiin;

5)**spontaneous*malolactid*fermentaion*by
indigenous lactic acid bacteria;

6) ageing wine on yeast (lees (sur lie ageing);

7)**temperature*of*iwne*during*ageing*and
shipment;

8)**duration*of*wine*ageing;

9)**wine*pH;*and

10)**wineery*sanitation*practices."

"Recommendations to prevent formation of biogenic
amines and ethyl carbamate

Biogenic Amines

if possible periodically monitor microbial
populations on grapes to determine risk for
biogenic amine producers.

if possible, assess concentration of primary
precursor amino acids in grapes and must.

avoid spontaneous alcoholic fermentations and use
commercial strains of Saccharomyces cervisiae
that lack or have minimal decarboxylase activity.

Avoid extended ageing of wine on yeast or
malolactic lees.

Try to minimize extended grape maceration.

Avoid spontaneous malolactic fermentations and use
commercial strains of Oenoccus oeni that lack or
have minimal amino acid decarboxylase activitry.

Try to avoid higher pH wines (above 3.7) since
they allow proliferation of Lactobacillus and
Pediococcus.

When pH of wine is high, lysozyme can be added to
remove the natural lactic acid bacteria.

Immediately following malolactic fermentaion and
during wine ageing, maintain molecular SO2 levels
of at least 0.4 to 0.5 ppm to prevent or minimize
growth of lactic acid bacteria.

Maintan good sanitation practices during wine
production.

Ethyl Carbamate

Avoid argine content of 1000 mg/L in juice.

Avoid excessive nitrogen fertilization of
vineyards.

Periodically monitor nitrogen status of vines and
soil.

Test nitrogen status of juice.

Avoid adding excessive nitrogen supplements; do
not add urea.

Use commercial strains of Saccharomyces cervisiae
that are known to produce low levels of urea
(Premier Cuvee (PdM) or Lallemand 71B) when juice
has a high arginine content.

Avoid ageing wine on yeast lees (sur lie ageing),
which can liberate amino acids and proteins.

Avoid spontaneous malolactic fermentatons and use
commercial strains of Oenoccus oeni that do not
have ability to produce high levels of
citrulline.

Avoid elevated temperatures during ageing and
shipment of wine.

If wines are going to be aged for an extendd
period of time, it is advisable to periodically
monitor ethyl carbamate levels.

Try to avoid higher pH ines (above 3.7) since they
allow proliferation of Lacto bacillus and
Pedioccus.

Immediately following malolactic fermentation and
during wine ageing, maintain molecular SO2 levels
of at least 0.4 to 0.5 ppm to prevent or minimize
growth of lactic acid bacteria.

Maintain good sanitation practices during wine
production."

I realize that amateur winemakers do not have the
resources to monitor all of the above but we can
control a good amount of them.

I encourage anyone who is interested in the topic
to pick up a copy of the magazine.**There*are*23
references cited at the end of the article.**I
did not quote the article in the entirety but
tried to summarize the main points.

Paul

On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 12:27:29 -0400, Bill wrote:

In article ,
"Paul J. Dudley" wrote:



Bill ... Did you work for DEC ? I started working at DEC in 82 at the
Mill ( Maynard MA ). Worked from 82 - 96 ( got hit by the next to last
wave of layoffs - before the were bought by Compaq ). Began as
a mech designer - left as a Sr Info Sys Spec ( supporting VAX/VMS and
then OpenVMS, Ultrix/UNIX ). Had a heart attack in 95 in the middle
of an ALL-IN-1 trouble call - how rude. Got canned a year later with
the rest of the burnouts and broken down misfits.

Jus' thought I'd ask...

= Paul =

At one time in the VAX heyday I could walk down a hall and see a
expert in computer science. This In a large company from Delaware.
My boss told me to take care of making sure folks about the world had
access to RS1. Seems RS1 needed a $. So I was able to grant access to
many folks and I pointed out that LYNX was available at the $. Lynx =
pre graphical interface to the internet. Mexican engineers flipped out
in a joyous manner. Those DEC folks with physicists about did a great
job in removing their need to be around. SAD.
I ran two international newsletters until my boss¹s boss¹s etc
bragged then a VP of the company said ³What² shut me down as I was just
the lowest level employee. I know what ALL-IN-one is don¹t miss it ).

Peter Mroz or Roy Beatty ring a pleasant bell?

Hope the heart is treating you well I know what CABG is.

Bill

I remember lynx very well. In fact I just had to use it the other day
( I use Slackware Linux. I was logged in under my own username the
other day and needed to pull up an html file I had on my W2k partition.
Instead of logging off and then logging in as root, I just pulled up a
terminal window, went to superuser and pulled the file up in lynx ).
Lynx was my first web experience - no more BBS's, no more gopher,
or archie etc. The web was here and DEC had two gateways to the
internet. I couldn't wait to get home to my vt100 and dial in my 300bps
modem, fire up lynx and see what was out there.. ( although most
web sites at the time were computer related in nature and content.
Not much else ).

And "$" command prompt. My handle was "sys$shrink". Reminds me
of a time when I shutdown what I thought was my own system when
I heard beeping going off all over the place and quickly realized I
was logged into a cluster node instead... Shutdown the whole cluster..
I hid under a table.... @sys$system:shutdown ....
( ... boot prompt ).

Peter Mroz or Roy Beatty ring a pleasant bell?

Not familiar. Were they engineers ?

= Paul =

" Those were the days ... ( sigh ).. ."

In article ,
"Paul J. Dudley" wrote:



Peter Mroz or Roy Beatty ring a pleasant bell?

Not familiar. Were they engineers ?

= Paul =

" Those were the days ... ( sigh ).. ."


Yes they were both engineers and we visited each other¹s homes in the
day.
Best

Bill

--
Garden in shade zone 5 S Jersey USA