"Penelope Periwinkle" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 15 Aug 2008 20:51:19 -0500, "Marie Dodge"
wrote:


No one I know has ever seen such an infestation of whitefly and spider
mite,
including the extension agent.

Do they make dark shadows on your screens at night? Do you have
to wear a bandana when you're working in the garden to avoid
ingesting bunches of whiteflies with each breath?

Yes. I must use a bandanna not to inhale them. I haven't looked at the
window screens at night.

Do they make
pretty abstract patterns on the wall of the house where the
morning sun first hits? Cause, that's what it was like when I
moved into this house in June of 2001.

The type we have do not leave the plants.

Something was clearly out of whack with the food chain for such
an explosion of the white fly population. And...spit! thrips,
they were just not as obvious at first.

So, I started releasing lacewings. The yard was horribly
overgrown, so I also cut back or completely down shrubs and weedy
trees that looked like they were especially overwhelmed by the
whiteflies. I released some ladybugs, too, and the next spring
released more lacewings and ladybugs.

As I mentioned in another post. My ex-husband released these same
"beneficials" plus a third (I can't recall the 3rd one) in the old garden
where I used to live. In 48 hours we couldn't find one left! Not one, but
the pests were still there. And even back then they were expensive. How did
you keep them from flying away?

I talked to my neighbors
with varying success about not using broad spectrum pesticides,
and made sure they all knew what ladybug and lacewing larva
looked like. It took 2 years (and 3 summers) but things finally
swung back into better balance. I still get a whitefly outbreak
every summer, but I put yellow sticky traps out around the garden
for a little extra protection, and let nature take its course
elsewhere. Of course, I get all tingly and feel like an Uber
Garden Geek when I find ladybug eggs or lacewing larva on a plant
that has whitefly. I've been down right orgasmic over the
proliferation of squirrel treefrogs this year, too.

I'd like to know how you kept them in your garden. I know my ex-husband was
bitterly disappointed they were all gone in 2 or maybe 3 days leaving him
with a nice charge on his chargecard and the pests still there to deal with.
I'm not sure what all was infesting that garden but do remember the cucumber
beetles, root worms on the root crops, corn ear worms, SVBs, tomato horn
worms and something that about wiped out the asparagus as he waited for the
beneficials to arrive. He bought some pesticide from a local Co-op and
sprayed the garden several times.... but that was apparently before all
these insects and bugs developed immunity because it took care of the
problem quickly. I remember the corn, rootcrops and squash being a total
loss. He sprayed them too late but we did save the other crops.

The heat, low humidity and lack of rain is
certainly contributing to this infestation. In fact it's spreading across
the grass, other wild plants and the trees on the property around us. It's
spread to the flower beds. At this point trying to control the mite and
w/flies is a waste of time.

Yeah, we were in our fifth year of drought when I moved out here.
I'm sure that contributed to the pest explosion.

Something is, that's for sure. Oddly enough the two older gardens only have
whitefly and are still producing. The garden with the spider-mite and WF is
a total loss - and that's the new garden that laid fallow two years due to
my accident. It's never been sprayed with anything.



Penelope

--
You have proven yourself to be the most malicious,
classless person that I've encountered in years.
- "pointed"

"John Savage" wrote in message
...
"Marie Dodge" writes:
Actually it says: "Flour preparations Flour mixed in water *is said to be*
very effective against aphids and spider mites.." I'm curious, said by
who?

You might be interested in an aphid spray I use. 1 part denatured alcohol
+
3 parts water. Spray onto the pests. They cease moving immediately, and
more
importantly, never move again. I have not found it to harm any plants,
but
there is nothing stopping you hosing it off 10 mins after applying if you
wish, as by then it has done its job. As always, it would be wise to do a
test spraying on just one plant initially, and then on the others 2 or 3
days later. I've found it ideal for killing aphids clustered on the tender
new tips of plants such as roses and lemons.

Thanks for the info John. Aphids haven't been a problem here at all but
will try it if some appear. I haven't seen an aphid in ages. The 2-spotted
spider mite and common Whitefly appear to be immune to everything including
oils (summer and Neem). Today I noticed my prize Gardenia on the back porch
has MEALY BUGS!!!!!!!! :*(


Denatured alcohol is called "methylated spirits" here in Australia. It's
just ethyl alcohol with a trace amount of an evil-tasting stuff to stop
people drinking it and evading the alcohol tax. (You could use cheap vodka
in place of the alcohol I suppose!!)

You could try it on spider mite. I have used it on small grubs, but doubt
that it would kill whitefly.

We live out in the country so that's impossible. We're surrounded by
woodland and underbrush, weeds and wildflowers. It would take thousands
of
dollars and aerial spraying would be required. But thanks for the
info.....

I read that aphids can over-winter on thistles. Skeptical, next winter I
took a closer look. They sure do: the leaves were thick with aphids. Then
I found one milk thistle with no aphids on its leaves. I pulled it up and
found its roots clad in an overcoat with aphids! So one measure you could
take is to make sure there are no milk thistles in fallow parts of your
garden.
--
John Savage (my news address is not valid for email)

"polecanoe" wrote in message
...
marie:
It sounds like you ruined your plants with all the sprays.

Uh no, what ruined them is using useless organic sprays and powders,
allowing the pests to reach proportions that no chemical can now control.
By the time I turned to chemicals it was too late. The plants were too far
gone with spider mites and the w/flies to save.

Pro-organic rant snipped.

Hi All,

"Marie Dodge" wrote in message
...

"Penelope Periwinkle" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 15 Aug 2008 20:51:19 -0500, "Marie Dodge"
wrote:


No one I know has ever seen such an infestation of whitefly and spider
mite,
including the extension agent.

Do they make dark shadows on your screens at night? Do you have
to wear a bandana when you're working in the garden to avoid
ingesting bunches of whiteflies with each breath?

Yes. I must use a bandanna not to inhale them. I haven't looked at the
window screens at night.

Do they make
pretty abstract patterns on the wall of the house where the
morning sun first hits? Cause, that's what it was like when I
moved into this house in June of 2001.

The type we have do not leave the plants.

Something was clearly out of whack with the food chain for such
an explosion of the white fly population. And...spit! thrips,
they were just not as obvious at first.

So, I started releasing lacewings. The yard was horribly
overgrown, so I also cut back or completely down shrubs and weedy
trees that looked like they were especially overwhelmed by the
whiteflies. I released some ladybugs, too, and the next spring
released more lacewings and ladybugs.

As I mentioned in another post. My ex-husband released these same
"beneficials" plus a third (I can't recall the 3rd one) in the old garden
where I used to live. In 48 hours we couldn't find one left! Not one,
but the pests were still there. And even back then they were expensive.
How did you keep them from flying away?

I talked to my neighbors
with varying success about not using broad spectrum pesticides,
and made sure they all knew what ladybug and lacewing larva
looked like. It took 2 years (and 3 summers) but things finally
swung back into better balance. I still get a whitefly outbreak
every summer, but I put yellow sticky traps out around the garden
for a little extra protection, and let nature take its course
elsewhere. Of course, I get all tingly and feel like an Uber
Garden Geek when I find ladybug eggs or lacewing larva on a plant
that has whitefly. I've been down right orgasmic over the
proliferation of squirrel treefrogs this year, too.

I'd like to know how you kept them in your garden. I know my ex-husband
was bitterly disappointed they were all gone in 2 or maybe 3 days leaving
him with a nice charge on his chargecard and the pests still there to deal
with. I'm not sure what all was infesting that garden but do remember the
cucumber beetles, root worms on the root crops, corn ear worms, SVBs,
tomato horn worms and something that about wiped out the asparagus as he
waited for the beneficials to arrive. He bought some pesticide from a
local Co-op and sprayed the garden several times.... but that was
apparently before all these insects and bugs developed immunity because it
took care of the problem quickly. I remember the corn, rootcrops and
squash being a total loss. He sprayed them too late but we did save the
other crops.

The heat, low humidity and lack of rain is
certainly contributing to this infestation. In fact it's spreading across
the grass, other wild plants and the trees on the property around us.
It's
spread to the flower beds. At this point trying to control the mite and
w/flies is a waste of time.

Yeah, we were in our fifth year of drought when I moved out here.
I'm sure that contributed to the pest explosion.

Something is, that's for sure. Oddly enough the two older gardens only
have whitefly and are still producing. The garden with the spider-mite and
WF is a total loss - and that's the new garden that laid fallow two years
due to my accident. It's never been sprayed with anything.

Try washing up liquid. It is cheap and effective.

Richard M. Watkin.


Penelope

--
You have proven yourself to be the most malicious,
classless person that I've encountered in years.
- "pointed"

"R M. Watkin" wrote in message
...

Try washing up liquid. It is cheap and effective.



What is "washing up liquid" and why would it work when the other organic
pesticides failed completely? Do you have any sites where experiments were
done proving this washing-up-liquid actually works on WF and SP?

On Mon, 25 Aug 2008 19:47:15 -0500, Marie Dodge wrote:

"R M. Watkin" wrote in message
...

Try washing up liquid. It is cheap and effective.



What is "washing up liquid" and why would it work when the other organic
pesticides failed completely? Do you have any sites where experiments
were done proving this washing-up-liquid actually works on WF and SP?

Soap you use for washing. You make a spray and wash away the aphids and
other little buggers. Organic is great. Try Dr. Bronner's peppermint
soap. Kills them dead. Or instead of poison, a cheaper alternative
would be "Joy" or "Dawn". Whatever liquid dish soap you use for hand
washing. If you get a sprayer, you can do it larger scale. Look for the
problems, and spray/wash them away.

p.s. Dish soap water also makes an excellent wasp killer. You can
spray a nest overhead, with no worries about overspray. They can't fly,
drop to the ground instantly, and die in seconds.

http://www.drbronner.com/

stonerfish

"jellybean stonerfish" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 25 Aug 2008 19:47:15 -0500, Marie Dodge wrote:

"R M. Watkin" wrote in message
...

Try washing up liquid. It is cheap and effective.



What is "washing up liquid" and why would it work when the other organic
pesticides failed completely? Do you have any sites where experiments
were done proving this washing-up-liquid actually works on WF and SP?

Soap you use for washing. You make a spray and wash away the aphids and
other little buggers.

How do YOU wash them away in your gardens with detergents? Do you have a
special high power sprayer made for such sprays? How do you kill them when
they hit the ground? Step on them all? If you don't kill them once washed
off they'll crawl and fly right back onto the plants. How do you manage to
use enough pressure to dislodge them and not shread the leaves?

Organic is great. Try Dr. Bronner's peppermint
soap. Kills them dead.

So you tried this Peppermint soap on both 2-spot-SpiderMites and Whitefly?
Don't you remember I was told the other organic products would kill them
dead and not one worked as claimed? Since all the other organic products
failed, why would you think this one would work?

Or instead of poison, a cheaper alternative
would be "Joy" or "Dawn". Whatever liquid dish soap you use for hand
washing. If you get a sprayer, you can do it larger scale. Look for the
problems, and spray/wash them away.

How did you wash them away? How many pounds of pressure did it take to
dislodge your spider mites and whitefly? How did you wash off the nymphs
without shredding the leaves due to pressure? Since you believe these
organic potions work, please explain why all the others failed and how many
more will be recommended as long as a person keeps trying them? Just
wondering. From the website... this sounds like typical snake-oil:

Dr. Bronner’s is Celebrating Our 60th Anniversary! 5 Generations and 150
Years of Soapmaking Excellence
Marking the 60th Anniversary of the company, *Dr. Bronner's Magic Soaps* is
pleased to announce that all classic liquid & bar soaps.........

p.s. Dish soap water also makes an excellent wasp killer. You can
spray a nest overhead, with no worries about overspray. They can't fly,
drop to the ground instantly, and die in seconds.

Why would soap kill them in seconds when it's not a poison? Have you done
this yourself with wasps or is this something you read on an organic site
selling "magic soaps?"


http://www.drbronner.com/

stonerfish

Marie Dodge said:

Why would soap kill them in seconds when it's not a poison? Have you
done this yourself with wasps or is this something you read on an
organic site selling "magic soaps?"

Now you even have me believing you are in this for the trolling.

Lady, soap solution kills insects. Kills them fast. Soap kills earwigs
lickety split, even though actual over-the-counter poisons barely slow
them down.. You have to be sure to cover them with soap spray.
I have personally murdered hosts of earwigs and aphids with soap.
And I have accidentally killed a few bees with it. If someone says
he's killed wasps with soap spray, I'm inclined to believe him.

The only caution is that soap can also damage plant leaves. And the
solutionto *that* is to come back around and rinse the plants off after
the pests are killed.

Cornell sez:
Insecticidal soap products work by smothering soft bodied pests and
disrupting their cuticle layer. In order to be effective, it is necessary to
thoroughly coat the pest. After the soap dries on the plant surface, insects
and mites will not pick up a lethal dose.

http://www.nysaes.cornell.edu/pp/res...mfs/12soap.php

--
Pat in Plymouth MI ('someplace.net' is comcast)

After enlightenment, the laundry.

Hi Marie,
"Marie Dodge" wrote in message
...

"R M. Watkin" wrote in message
...

Try washing up liquid. It is cheap and effective.



What is "washing up liquid" and why would it work when the other organic
pesticides failed completely? Do you have any sites where experiments
were done proving this washing-up-liquid actually works on WF and SP?
It is a liquid soap used for washing dishes in the U, K. It works for me
that is all I can say. How it works I do not know. Hope this helps you.

Richard M. Watkin.

On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 01:48:58 -0500, Marie Dodge wrote:

Why would soap kill them in seconds when it's not a poison? Have you
done this yourself with wasps or is this something you read on an
organic site selling "magic soaps?"

The soap makes the water wetter. It soaks into their skin and they die.
I think maybe they breath through their skin and this makes them drown.
I don't know what happens, just that the soap kills them, and they are
dead. And you don't need special soap for aphids or white flies. Because
my friend is worried about chemicals, we used Dr. Bronners on her iris's,
and gave them a quick wipe between fingers. Also we misted her mint and
rosemary, with now fear of using them in the future. The white fly
infestation is now gone.
Now, about the wasps. My job is construction. Many times, when working
at someones house, I will encounter a wasp nest. Someone showed me the
soapy water trick many years ago. Fill a pan or large bowl with soapy
water. Fling it on the wasp nest. Done.

stonerfish

"Billy" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Marie Dodge" wrote:

Ironite?

You can live without it.

Yes, but the plants cannot. Our soil was very low in Iron when tested.

Liquid Chelated Iron 32 oz. Price: $10.95

Sulfur Powder 2 lb Price: $4.95

and no heavy metals

No heavy metals in the sulfur powder either.

--

Billy
Bush and Pelosi Behind Bars
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KVTf...ef=patrick.net
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1009916.html

"Pat Kiewicz" wrote in message
...
Marie Dodge said:

Why would soap kill them in seconds when it's not a poison? Have you
done this yourself with wasps or is this something you read on an
organic site selling "magic soaps?"

Now you even have me believing you are in this for the trolling.

Why? Because I ask questions after taking people's advice here and the
products recommended no working? Why can't you accept the truth? Why should
people keep going out and buying one product after the other when none
worked before? Your ignorance is really surprising since the nymphs of
these insects cannot be "washed off" like bits of mud or leaf litter.


Lady, soap solution kills insects. Kills them fast. Soap kills earwigs
lickety split, even though actual over-the-counter poisons barely slow
them down.. You have to be sure to cover them with soap spray.
I have personally murdered hosts of earwigs and aphids with soap.
And I have accidentally killed a few bees with it. If someone says
he's killed wasps with soap spray, I'm inclined to believe him.

So non-toxic common soap kills them dead but no one knows this but a few
people on Usenet? If soap killed silverleaf-whitefly and 2-spot spider mite
dead, it would be well known all over the world by now. Thee two pests
alone do millions of dollars worth of damage every year, both in the USA and
SA. But no one but a few people here know soap kills them?


The only caution is that soap can also damage plant leaves. And the
solutionto *that* is to come back around and rinse the plants off after
the pests are killed.

To use enough pressure to dislodge the nymphs of WF and SMs will itself
damage the leaves, shred them if not knock them off the plants completely.
So tell them..... how much soap is used per gallon? At sundown I used a new
sprayer and sprayed the plants with 1 TBS per gallon soap and 1 TBS per
gallon flour as per one of the people here. All the WF and SP should be
dead and gone in the morning according to you. You claim the soap will kill
them dead whereas the nothing else did. We'll see.


Cornell sez:
Insecticidal soap products work by smothering soft bodied pests and
disrupting their cuticle layer. In order to be effective, it is necessary
to
thoroughly coat the pest. After the soap dries on the plant surface,
insects
and mites will not pick up a lethal dose.

Soap is cheap. I soaked the plants completely, top and bottom of the all
leaves the spray wand reached - right down to the ground.


http://www.nysaes.cornell.edu/pp/res...mfs/12soap.php

The link above couldn't be reached (see below). I can't wait to read why
farmers are losing millions of dollars a year to WF and SP by refusing to
use Soap to kill them. Neem Oil is also supposed to kill them. Maybe I'll
learn why they're not using that either but rather take great losses.

Network Error (tcp_error)
A communication error occurred: "Operation timed out"
The Web Server may be down, too busy, or experiencing other problems
preventing it from responding to requests. You may wish to try again at a
later time.




--
Pat in Plymouth MI ('someplace.net' is comcast)

After enlightenment, the laundry.

"jellybean stonerfish" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 01:48:58 -0500, Marie Dodge wrote:

Why would soap kill them in seconds when it's not a poison? Have you
done this yourself with wasps or is this something you read on an
organic site selling "magic soaps?"

The soap makes the water wetter. It soaks into their skin and they die.
I think maybe they breath through their skin and this makes them drown.
I don't know what happens, just that the soap kills them, and they are
dead. And you don't need special soap for aphids or white flies. Because
my friend is worried about chemicals, we used Dr. Bronners on her iris's,
and gave them a quick wipe between fingers. Also we misted her mint and
rosemary, with now fear of using them in the future. The white fly
infestation is now gone.

Well I sprayed all three gardens with Soap and flour as suggested here. I
had nothng to lose since these products were in my home and are both cheap.
We'll see if soap killed them.... in fact I'm taking the flashlight out
there now and looking.

OK... the plants were sprayed around 7 PM with 1 TBS each of flour and
handsoap (Palmolive) per gallon of water in a brand new sprayer with a
larger tip. Both sides of the leaves were sprayed. Sprayed were collards,
jewel peppers, chard, tomatoes and a Ichabon eggplant. Only the Chard had
spider mites and only a few plants are infested so far. The WF and SMs are
still there and are alive. I could see them moving, walking over the residue
of soap and flour when disturbed. They will not fly at night. They had 6
hours now to suffocate and die. The flour was supposed to somehow kill them
also. The whole garden smells faintly of soap but I guess that's better than
the Organicide which smelled like fish and didn't kill/smother them either.
I'm just wondering what will be said next.... that it's the wrong brand of
flour, the wrong kind of soap, wrong brand of soap and flour, wrong aroma,
constancy of soap.....? I'm sure you can see my point. The second garden
is now being destroyed by these pests and so far nothing had worked. Not
one of you purely Organic people have explained why the Neem Oil, the
Phyrethrum and the Organicide didn't do them any harm either. What's left to
recommend now? How many more organic options are left?

Now, about the wasps. My job is construction. Many times, when working
at someones house, I will encounter a wasp nest. Someone showed me the
soapy water trick many years ago. Fill a pan or large bowl with soapy
water. Fling it on the wasp nest. Done.

I can't try it on wasps since we don't have any here at the moment. But
since the soap and flour didn't kill the WF and SMs, I would have to be out
of my mind to toss it on wasps. You really need to tell people to try it on
insects not dangerous to themselves before recommending they toss it on
wasps. When it fails to kill the wasps as it did the WF and SMs, and the
person is stung, they can go into shock and die.



stonerfish

"R M. Watkin" wrote in message
...
Hi Marie,
"Marie Dodge" wrote in message
...

"R M. Watkin" wrote in message
...

Try washing up liquid. It is cheap and effective.



What is "washing up liquid" and why would it work when the other organic
pesticides failed completely? Do you have any sites where experiments
were done proving this washing-up-liquid actually works on WF and SP?

It is a liquid soap used for washing dishes in the U, K. It works for me
that is all I can say. How it works I do not know. Hope this helps you.

Do you know what chemicals are in your soap there? The soap here in the USA
doesn't kill them. I used Palmolive at the recommended dose. After 7 hours
the SMs and WF are still there and still alive.


Richard M. Watkin.

On Fri, 29 Aug 2008 01:16:49 -0500, Marie Dodge wrote:


"jellybean stonerfish" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 01:48:58 -0500, Marie Dodge wrote:

Why would soap kill them in seconds when it's not a poison? Have you
done this yourself with wasps or is this something you read on an
organic site selling "magic soaps?"

The soap makes the water wetter. It soaks into their skin and they
die. I think maybe they breath through their skin and this makes them
drown. I don't know what happens, just that the soap kills them, and
they are dead. And you don't need special soap for aphids or white
flies. Because my friend is worried about chemicals, we used Dr.
Bronners on her iris's, and gave them a quick wipe between fingers.
Also we misted her mint and rosemary, with now fear of using them in
the future. The white fly infestation is now gone.

Well I sprayed all three gardens with Soap and flour as suggested here.
I had nothng to lose since these products were in my home and are both
cheap. We'll see if soap killed them.... in fact I'm taking the
flashlight out there now and looking.

Flour? I don't ever remember suggesting flour. Sounds messy.



OK... the plants were sprayed around 7 PM with 1 TBS each of flour and
handsoap (Palmolive) per gallon of water in a brand new sprayer with a
larger tip. Both sides of the leaves were sprayed. Sprayed were
collards, jewel peppers, chard, tomatoes and a Ichabon eggplant. Only
the Chard had spider mites and only a few plants are infested so far.

Ok, so you have some time and a flashlight. Wash the few plants with
mites. Then do it again the next night. I don't know what the flour
will do, except make things messy.

The WF and SMs are still there and are alive. I could see them moving,
walking over the residue of soap and flour when disturbed. They will
not fly at night. They had 6 hours now to suffocate and die. The flour
was supposed to somehow kill them also. The whole garden smells faintly
of soap but I guess that's better than the Organicide which smelled like
fish and didn't kill/smother them either. I'm just wondering what will
be said next.... that it's the wrong brand of flour, the wrong kind of
soap, wrong brand of soap and flour, wrong aroma, constancy of
soap.....? I'm sure you can see my point. The second garden is now
being destroyed by these pests and so far nothing had worked. Not one
of you purely Organic people have explained why the Neem Oil, the
Phyrethrum and the Organicide didn't do them any harm either. What's
left to recommend now? How many more organic options are left?

I don't know what to tell you. It seems like the bugs are your enemy.
In your other post, where you mention birds, it sounds like they are your
enemy too. Maybe you should go with astro-turf.


Now, about the wasps. My job is construction. Many times, when
You really need to tell people to
try it on insects not dangerous to themselves before recommending they
toss it on wasps. When it fails to kill the wasps as it did the WF and
SMs, and the person is stung, they can go into shock and die.

Be afraid, be very afraid.....

stonerfish