In article
,
gardengal wrote:

On Apr 5, 12:38*pm, Billy wrote:

So what your saying is, if I had only listened to you, I'd know you were
right? Hmmmm.

Noooooo. What I said that if you had studied the matter yourself -
like took a couple of courses or spent time in the field doing
research - rather than just regurgitating what you have found in
books, you might broaden your perspective.
So, as a teacher, you're telling me that unless I take a class, my
studies don't count. Doesn't say much for self-actuated learning does it?
And my time observing in the garden is just wasted time? Huh? Who would
have thought. Interesting pedagogical approach you have there. You must
be one of those "No Kid's Behind Left" types.
btw, if you look hard
enough, you can find something published that will support pretty much
any wild claim.
I've noticed that from reading your posts.
It's more a matter of considering the source and
evaluating whether that source has any credence.
Which is why I wanted to know your bonifides.
And if the
regurgitated information is even presented in context or applicable to
the discussion at hand.
Or a teacher who answers the question that they want to answer, rather
than the one that was ask.

Seems you didn't do all the original research on your information either.
So why you giving me a hard time for doing the same thing?
Or is it I represent a threat, because I can read, same as you, and
since I've read others, I might know something you don't, thereby
diminishing your "glory"? Hmmm.

So far your arguments - if one can call them that - seem to be focused
more on personal attacks rather than providing any credence to your
statements. That says volumes. Go ahead and play your childish little
games and feel as superior and self-righteous as you like.
Say, you're pretty handy with ad hominems and invectives yourself.
I'm pretty
secure in my position and with myeducation and experience and
certainly don't need your validation.
Pu-leez, don't let me disturb your reality.

You gat serious issues girl.

And you don't??

Speakin' of serious, I gat to find my bottle opener. I ain't worth
s__t, till I have breakfast.

And that explains a lot.
What, that you can't even win an argument with a dissipated drunk?

It's been a lot of fun but let's get back to the question about whether
plants can change soil pH, shall we? After all, that's why we are here.
Now are we talking bare, scraped land or a constituent area of the
biosphere?

You seem amenable (correct me if I'm wrong) to imperceptible changes to
the exposed underlying geological strata, let's call it acute vegetation
(all of a sudden a lot of plants). How about changes based on chronic
vegetation (plants growing in a spot for a long time)? Would you grant
me that there are changes that would take place immediately around the
plant and it's roots? Would not there be some change due to the
mycorrhiza (acidic) or the bacterial exudate (basic) due to their
abilities to dissolve different minerals from the geological substrate?
If yes, how far would this change occur? How long before it would become
significant?

You must be aware of continental drift. Let's say that as the plates
drifted apart that one part becomes, oh let's say South Carolina and the
other part becomes, say, Senegal, are you going to have the same type of
geologically determined plants growing in both places?

I await your professional response.
--

- Billy
"For the first time in the history of the world, every human being
is now subjected to contact with dangerous chemicals, from the
moment of conception until death." - Rachel Carson

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI29wVQN8Go

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072040.html

"Billy" wrote in message
...
In article
,
gardengal wrote:

On Apr 5, 12:38 pm, Billy wrote:

So what your saying is, if I had only listened to you, I'd know you
were
right? Hmmmm.

Noooooo. What I said that if you had studied the matter yourself -
like took a couple of courses or spent time in the field doing
research - rather than just regurgitating what you have found in
books, you might broaden your perspective.
So, as a teacher, you're telling me that unless I take a class, my
studies don't count. Doesn't say much for self-actuated learning does it?
And my time observing in the garden is just wasted time? Huh? Who would
have thought. Interesting pedagogical approach you have there. You must
be one of those "No Kid's Behind Left" types.
btw, if you look hard
enough, you can find something published that will support pretty much
any wild claim.
I've noticed that from reading your posts.
It's more a matter of considering the source and
evaluating whether that source has any credence.
Which is why I wanted to know your bonifides.
And if the
regurgitated information is even presented in context or applicable to
the discussion at hand.
Or a teacher who answers the question that they want to answer, rather
than the one that was ask.

Seems you didn't do all the original research on your information
either.
So why you giving me a hard time for doing the same thing?
Or is it I represent a threat, because I can read, same as you, and
since I've read others, I might know something you don't, thereby
diminishing your "glory"? Hmmm.

So far your arguments - if one can call them that - seem to be focused
more on personal attacks rather than providing any credence to your
statements. That says volumes. Go ahead and play your childish little
games and feel as superior and self-righteous as you like.
Say, you're pretty handy with ad hominems and invectives yourself.
I'm pretty
secure in my position and with myeducation and experience and
certainly don't need your validation.
Pu-leez, don't let me disturb your reality.

You gat serious issues girl.

And you don't??

Speakin' of serious, I gat to find my bottle opener. I ain't worth
s__t, till I have breakfast.

And that explains a lot.
What, that you can't even win an argument with a dissipated drunk?

It's been a lot of fun but let's get back to the question about whether
plants can change soil pH, shall we? After all, that's why we are here.
Now are we talking bare, scraped land or a constituent area of the
biosphere?

You seem amenable (correct me if I'm wrong) to imperceptible changes to
the exposed underlying geological strata, let's call it acute vegetation
(all of a sudden a lot of plants). How about changes based on chronic
vegetation (plants growing in a spot for a long time)? Would you grant
me that there are changes that would take place immediately around the
plant and it's roots? Would not there be some change due to the
mycorrhiza (acidic) or the bacterial exudate (basic) due to their
abilities to dissolve different minerals from the geological substrate?
If yes, how far would this change occur? How long before it would become
significant?

You must be aware of continental drift. Let's say that as the plates
drifted apart that one part becomes, oh let's say South Carolina and the
other part becomes, say, Senegal, are you going to have the same type of
geologically determined plants growing in both places?

I await your professional response.
--


Billy, these blabber mouth babe's only professional response will consist of
some sci fi theory they read in a fercocktah text book somewhere in a far
away galaxy, their lily petal soft manicured JAP hands have never touched
"dirt".. they've never worked any land except in their dream books... so far
in the months I've read posts here I've not even once seen anything the loud
mouthed professionals have actually they themselves planted, not a tree, not
a shrub, not a blade of grass, not even one friggin' string bean. Should
name them the Flowering Flaming Frauds! LOL

They don't have real lawns in Texass... if I don't know anything else, this
Noo Yawk Lung Guylander knows to grow grass, and can prove it. I own 107
acres of the most gorgeous Noo Yawk farmland. But I've already been
apprised by some on this group that yoose experts don't want to see actual
REAL gardening, hurts yer envious little feelings.

I ain't going away, any of yoose lie I'll let yoose know it.

In article , Charlie wrote:

On Sun, 05 Apr 2009 15:38:49 -0700, Billy
wrote:

In article
,
gardengal wrote:

On Apr 5, 12:38*pm, Billy wrote:

And that explains a lot.

What, that you can't even win an argument with a dissipated drunk?

LMAO!!! This hit me just right, given current circumstance. Thanks
fer the hearty, old trout.

Cheers
Charlie

You're welcome kid. Just have to know when to giv'em enough line.
Actually, I had oatmeal, bran, molasses, cinnamon, milk, and a banana
for breakfast with a large glass of water. (sigh)

Still trying to get used to the idea of being an "organic" Nazi. You
know, after all those years of being a "peace" Nazi. It gets confusing
trying to figure out what kind of Nazi you really are, another time,
another place.

Should have been in the garden today but ended up fighting the
propaganda war like a good "education" Nazi (F bush and his freakin' "No
Child's Behind Left"). Historically, when you put money into education
you get good results. Memorizing laundry lists isn't the way to learn. I
really like the Montessori system of where the teacher doesn't have to
continually traumatize a kid with tests but the teacher to student ratio
is such that the teacher knows what the kid knows through interaction
with him/her. Kids ain't little adults. They need time to mature before
you put demands on them. American secondary students test below European
students in the same grade but European students are traumatized by a
test that they have to pass when they are 12 years old, that will
determine the rest of their lives. In the US, we hit students hard when
they go to college, and we have a list of Nobel Prize winners that is
second to none.

Humph.

Have a good dinner. I gotta go check the ribs.
--

- Billy
"For the first time in the history of the world, every human being
is now subjected to contact with dangerous chemicals, from the
moment of conception until death." - Rachel Carson

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI29wVQN8Go

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072040.html

In article , Charlie wrote:

On Sun, 05 Apr 2009 18:30:15 -0700, Billy
wrote:

In article , Charlie wrote:

On Sun, 05 Apr 2009 15:38:49 -0700, Billy
wrote:

In article
,
gardengal wrote:

On Apr 5, 12:38*pm, Billy wrote:

And that explains a lot.

What, that you can't even win an argument with a dissipated drunk?

LMAO!!! This hit me just right, given current circumstance. Thanks
fer the hearty, old trout.

Cheers
Charlie

You're welcome kid. Just have to know when to giv'em enough line.
Actually, I had oatmeal, bran, molasses, cinnamon, milk, and a banana
for breakfast with a large glass of water. (sigh)

Still trying to get used to the idea of being an "organic" Nazi. You
know, after all those years of being a "peace" Nazi. It gets confusing
trying to figure out what kind of Nazi you really are, another time,
another place.

Indeed. One believes and acts passionately in regard to long held
beliefs and ideals.... beliefs and ideals which benefit individuals
and mankind, and their reward is being labeled a Nazi. T'was ever
thus....and so be it.

Should have been in the garden today but ended up fighting the
propaganda war like a good "education" Nazi (F bush and his freakin' "No
Child's Behind Left"). Historically, when you put money into education
you get good results. Memorizing laundry lists isn't the way to learn. I
really like the Montessori system of where the teacher doesn't have to
continually traumatize a kid with tests but the teacher to student ratio
is such that the teacher knows what the kid knows through interaction
with him/her. Kids ain't little adults. They need time to mature before
you put demands on them. American secondary students test below European
students in the same grade but European students are traumatized by a
test that they have to pass when they are 12 years old, that will
determine the rest of their lives. In the US, we hit students hard when
they go to college, and we have a list of Nobel Prize winners that is
second to none.

Humph.

Have a good dinner. I gotta go check the ribs.

Ribs?? Dude...it's sunday......change of routine??
Oh, Lovey was off spending night with her mom who just came back from
the hospital with her ticky-ticker. Beau and Lilly, a.k.a. The Hounds
from Hell, have been deprived since we kinda O.D.ed on ribs. Four hours
on the grill and the meat was about ready to slide off the bones. Good
time had by all. Randy, the senior statesman of our cats was greatly
pleased as well. The new "Alpha" cat, Figaro has never quite figured out
bones but it ****es him off to see the other cats enjoying them.
If you get a chance, rent "The Girl from Paris". It's a real old man's
movie. Er, at least it's what I would think would be an old man's movie.
It's in French with very good acting and great scenery of what I'd guess
would be the Jura.

Ahhh...I'd have gone to the garden meself, and missed this fun, had it
not been for the ***SNOW***. It's friggin' April here in zone 5/4,
fer crissake and two nights of hard freeze on the way........phooey

Edumcation...now there is a fine concept and practice, mostly
misunderstood by the great unwashed.

Seems funny that gardengal has such little respect for the
autodidactic. Al E. says it best, perhaps... creativity is a type of
learning process where the teacher and pupil are located in the same
individual.

Here's a little slideshow for those whose edumcation doesn't encourage
independant study and independant thought. Those who are inclined
towards self-study can surely find some things to research in this.
(sorry folks, you wanna know what this is, you gotta jump the
hoops...I haven't the time, nor inclination, to tutor ya'll.)

http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/historytour/history1.htm


Ha...all that glitters is not gold, or so 'tis said...

Charlie

"My schooling not only failed to teach me what it professed to be
teaching, but prevented me from being educated to an extent which
infuriates me when I think of all I might have learned at home by
myself." -- George Bernard Shaw

"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education."
-- Mark Twain

Sleep well.
--

- Billy
"For the first time in the history of the world, every human being
is now subjected to contact with dangerous chemicals, from the
moment of conception until death." - Rachel Carson

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI29wVQN8Go

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072040.html

Billy wrote in

t.au:

Should have been in the garden today but ended up fighting the
propaganda war like a good "education" Nazi (F bush and his
freakin' "No Child's Behind Left"). Historically, when you put
money into education you get good results. Memorizing laundry
lists isn't the way to learn. I really like the Montessori
system of where the teacher doesn't have to continually
traumatize a kid with tests but the teacher to student ratio is
such that the teacher knows what the kid knows through
interaction with him/her. Kids ain't little adults. They need
time to mature before you put demands on them.

Montessori would work as public education, if people really gave a
rat's butt what their kids do in school. shrug cutting class
size to under 12 students per teacher isn't likely to happen,
despite the spectacular results in actual learning...
yeah, i'm a Montessori parent. i don't care what i have to give up
(my income has dropped precipitously by over 2/3rds), the kid is
staying in Montessori. he's 8. reads on a 9th grade level, maths at
about 6th grade. his handwriting is atrocious however. fortunately
he can do his finished reports on computer or typewriter (he has a
1946 Underwood). and he loves school...
i enjoy having a child that feels competent & helpful. NCLB is
about the stupidest thing to ever hit education. school board
meetings here make me ill, & feel so sad for the poor kids in the
local school. those are the next generation, folks. why are we
teaching them so poorly?
lee

Hang on folks, I think this is the last of these posts. If you want to
avoid the re-hash, just scroll to the bottom.

On Apr 3, 5:59*am, "brooklyn1" wrote:
"Freckles" wrote:
I have three oak trees and I cannot get grass to grow under them. I know
St
Augustine will grow in the shade, but can anyone recommend a grass that
will
grow from seeds in a shaded area?

You have more than a shade issue. *Oak trees turn the soil beneath extremely
acetic, making it very difficult if not impossible to grow lawn grass
successfully. *Sometimes liming with shallow tilling can help but usually
not, and can more likely damage your trees. *I don't know where you're
located so I can't give you detailed recommendations, perhaps you can get
more help by accessing:http://www.scotts.com/smg/

On Sat, 4 Apr 2009 08:51:11 -0700 (PDT)
Gardengal wrote:
I agree it's more than just a shade issue, but it's got nothing to do
with soil acidity. PLANTS DO NOT MAKE SOIL ACIDIC (capitals for
emphasis)- acid soils occur as a result of the mineral content
and amount of rainfall.
-----

Then I made reference to "Dr. Elaine Ingham at Oregon
State University along with others". This reference came from

Teaming with Microbes: A Gardener's Guide to the Soil Food Web
Jeff Lowenfels and Wayne Lewis
http://www.amazon.com/Teaming-Microb.../dp/0881927775
/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1206815176&sr= 1-1

On Apr 4, 10:22*am, Billy wildbilly@without a.net wrote:

Ingham and some of her graduate students at OSU also noticed a correla-
tion between plants and their preference for soils that were fungally
dominated versus those that were bacterially dominated or neutral. Since
the path from bacterial to fungal domination in soils follows the
general course of plant succession, it became easy to predict what type
of soil particular plants preferred by noting where they came from. In
general, perennials, trees, and shrubs prefer fungally dominated soils,
while annuals, grasses, and vegetables prefer soils dominated by
bacteria.

One implication of these findings, for the gardener, has to do with the
nitrogen in bacteria and fungi. Remember, this is what the soil food web
means to a plant: when these organisms are eaten, some of the nitrogen
is retained by the eater, but much of it is released as waste in the
form of plant-available ammonium (NH^). Depending on the soil
environment, this can either remain as ammonium or be converted into
nitrate (NO,) by special bacteria. When does this conversion occur? When
ammonium is released in soils that are dominated by bacteria. This is
because such soils generally have an alkaline pH (thanks to bacterial
bioslime), which encourages the nitrogen-fixing bacteria to thrive. The
acids produced by fungi, as they begin to dominate, lower the pH and
greatly reduce the amount of these bacteria. In fungally dominated soils,
much of the nitrogen remains in ammonium form. Ah, here is the rub:
chemical fertilizers provide plants with nitrogen, but most do so in the
form of nitrates (NO,,). An understanding of the soil food web makes it
clear, however, that plants that prefer fungally dominated soils
ultimately won't flourish on a diet of nitrates. Knowing this can make a
great deal of difference in the way you manage your gardens and yard. If
you can cause either fungi or bacteria to dominate, or provide an equal
mix (and you can Ð just how is explained in Part 2) , then plants can
get the kind of nitrogen they prefer, without chemicals, and thrive.

p 25 -26

Teaming with Microbes: A Gardener's Guide to the Soil Food Web
by Jeff Lowenfels, Wayne Lewis

* *¤ *Publisher: Timber Press, Incorporated (July 15, 2006)
* *¤ *ISBN-10: 0881927775
* *¤ *ISBN-13: 978-0881927771

Finally

Gardengal Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2009 12:04:33 -0700 (PDT)

OTHER NATURAL PROCESSES THAT INCREASE SOIL ACIDITY INCLUDE ROOT GROWTH
AND DECAY OF ORGANIC MATTER BY SOIL MICROORGANISMS.(Capitals for
emphasis) Whereas the decay of organic matter gradually will
increase acidity, adding sources of organic matter with high pH
values (such as some manures and composts) can raise soil pH.

----
so at Sat, 4 Apr 2009 08:51:11 -0700 (PDT)
Gardengal said: PLANTS DO NOT MAKE SOIL ACIDIC

to

Sat, 4 Apr 2009 12:04:33 -0700 (PDT)
OTHER NATURAL PROCESSES THAT INCREASE SOIL ACIDITY INCLUDE ROOT GROWTH
AND DECAY OF ORGANIC MATTER BY SOIL MICROORGANISMS.

Q.E.D.
------

P.S. Actually, as Jeff Lowenfels pointed out, it's not the pH of the
soil that counts, it's the pH of the soil around the roots that count.
--

- Billy
"For the first time in the history of the world, every human being
is now subjected to contact with dangerous chemicals, from the
moment of conception until death." - Rachel Carson

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI29wVQN8Go

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072040.html

"Billy" wrote in message
...
Hang on folks, I think this is the last of these posts. If you want to
avoid the re-hash, just scroll to the bottom.

On Apr 3, 5:59 am, "brooklyn1" wrote:
"Freckles" wrote:
I have three oak trees and I cannot get grass to grow under them. I
know
St
Augustine will grow in the shade, but can anyone recommend a grass that
will
grow from seeds in a shaded area?

You have more than a shade issue. Oak trees turn the soil beneath
extremely
acetic, making it very difficult if not impossible to grow lawn grass
successfully. Sometimes liming with shallow tilling can help but usually
not, and can more likely damage your trees. I don't know where you're
located so I can't give you detailed recommendations, perhaps you can get
more help by accessing:http://www.scotts.com/smg/

On Sat, 4 Apr 2009 08:51:11 -0700 (PDT)
Gardengal wrote:
I agree it's more than just a shade issue, but it's got nothing to do
with soil acidity. PLANTS DO NOT MAKE SOIL ACIDIC (capitals for
emphasis)- acid soils occur as a result of the mineral content
and amount of rainfall.
-----

Then I made reference to "Dr. Elaine Ingham at Oregon
State University along with others". This reference came from

Teaming with Microbes: A Gardener's Guide to the Soil Food Web
Jeff Lowenfels and Wayne Lewis
http://www.amazon.com/Teaming-Microb.../dp/0881927775
/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1206815176&sr= 1-1

On Apr 4, 10:22 am, Billy wildbilly@without a.net wrote:

Ingham and some of her graduate students at OSU also noticed a correla-
tion between plants and their preference for soils that were fungally
dominated versus those that were bacterially dominated or neutral. Since
the path from bacterial to fungal domination in soils follows the
general course of plant succession, it became easy to predict what type
of soil particular plants preferred by noting where they came from. In
general, perennials, trees, and shrubs prefer fungally dominated soils,
while annuals, grasses, and vegetables prefer soils dominated by
bacteria.

One implication of these findings, for the gardener, has to do with the
nitrogen in bacteria and fungi. Remember, this is what the soil food web
means to a plant: when these organisms are eaten, some of the nitrogen
is retained by the eater, but much of it is released as waste in the
form of plant-available ammonium (NH^). Depending on the soil
environment, this can either remain as ammonium or be converted into
nitrate (NO,) by special bacteria. When does this conversion occur? When
ammonium is released in soils that are dominated by bacteria. This is
because such soils generally have an alkaline pH (thanks to bacterial
bioslime), which encourages the nitrogen-fixing bacteria to thrive. The
acids produced by fungi, as they begin to dominate, lower the pH and
greatly reduce the amount of these bacteria. In fungally dominated soils,
much of the nitrogen remains in ammonium form. Ah, here is the rub:
chemical fertilizers provide plants with nitrogen, but most do so in the
form of nitrates (NO,,). An understanding of the soil food web makes it
clear, however, that plants that prefer fungally dominated soils
ultimately won't flourish on a diet of nitrates. Knowing this can make a
great deal of difference in the way you manage your gardens and yard. If
you can cause either fungi or bacteria to dominate, or provide an equal
mix (and you can Ð just how is explained in Part 2) , then plants can
get the kind of nitrogen they prefer, without chemicals, and thrive.

p 25 -26

Teaming with Microbes: A Gardener's Guide to the Soil Food Web
by Jeff Lowenfels, Wayne Lewis

¤ Publisher: Timber Press, Incorporated (July 15, 2006)
¤ ISBN-10: 0881927775
¤ ISBN-13: 978-0881927771

Finally

Gardengal Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2009 12:04:33 -0700 (PDT)

OTHER NATURAL PROCESSES THAT INCREASE SOIL ACIDITY INCLUDE ROOT GROWTH
AND DECAY OF ORGANIC MATTER BY SOIL MICROORGANISMS.(Capitals for
emphasis) Whereas the decay of organic matter gradually will
increase acidity, adding sources of organic matter with high pH
values (such as some manures and composts) can raise soil pH.

----
so at Sat, 4 Apr 2009 08:51:11 -0700 (PDT)
Gardengal said: PLANTS DO NOT MAKE SOIL ACIDIC

to

Sat, 4 Apr 2009 12:04:33 -0700 (PDT)
OTHER NATURAL PROCESSES THAT INCREASE SOIL ACIDITY INCLUDE ROOT GROWTH
AND DECAY OF ORGANIC MATTER BY SOIL MICROORGANISMS.

Q.E.D.
------

P.S. Actually, as Jeff Lowenfels pointed out, it's not the pH of the
soil that counts, it's the pH of the soil around the roots that count.

Good job, Billy. That's called hung by their own petards.

Confucius say they who profess expertise at Column A eat crow for dessert..
LOL

In article ,
"brooklyn1" wrote:

"Billy" wrote in message
...
Hang on folks, I think this is the last of these posts. If you want to
avoid the re-hash, just scroll to the bottom.

On Apr 3, 5:59 am, "brooklyn1" wrote:
"Freckles" wrote:
I have three oak trees and I cannot get grass to grow under them. I
know
St
Augustine will grow in the shade, but can anyone recommend a grass that
will
grow from seeds in a shaded area?

You have more than a shade issue. Oak trees turn the soil beneath
extremely
acetic, making it very difficult if not impossible to grow lawn grass
successfully. Sometimes liming with shallow tilling can help but usually
not, and can more likely damage your trees. I don't know where you're
located so I can't give you detailed recommendations, perhaps you can get
more help by accessing:http://www.scotts.com/smg/

On Sat, 4 Apr 2009 08:51:11 -0700 (PDT)
Gardengal wrote:
I agree it's more than just a shade issue, but it's got nothing to do
with soil acidity. PLANTS DO NOT MAKE SOIL ACIDIC (capitals for
emphasis)- acid soils occur as a result of the mineral content
and amount of rainfall.
-----

Then I made reference to "Dr. Elaine Ingham at Oregon
State University along with others". This reference came from

Teaming with Microbes: A Gardener's Guide to the Soil Food Web
Jeff Lowenfels and Wayne Lewis
http://www.amazon.com/Teaming-Microb.../dp/0881927775
/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1206815176&sr= 1-1

On Apr 4, 10:22 am, Billy wildbilly@without a.net wrote:

Ingham and some of her graduate students at OSU also noticed a correla-
tion between plants and their preference for soils that were fungally
dominated versus those that were bacterially dominated or neutral. Since
the path from bacterial to fungal domination in soils follows the
general course of plant succession, it became easy to predict what type
of soil particular plants preferred by noting where they came from. In
general, perennials, trees, and shrubs prefer fungally dominated soils,
while annuals, grasses, and vegetables prefer soils dominated by
bacteria.

One implication of these findings, for the gardener, has to do with the
nitrogen in bacteria and fungi. Remember, this is what the soil food web
means to a plant: when these organisms are eaten, some of the nitrogen
is retained by the eater, but much of it is released as waste in the
form of plant-available ammonium (NH^). Depending on the soil
environment, this can either remain as ammonium or be converted into
nitrate (NO,) by special bacteria. When does this conversion occur? When
ammonium is released in soils that are dominated by bacteria. This is
because such soils generally have an alkaline pH (thanks to bacterial
bioslime), which encourages the nitrogen-fixing bacteria to thrive. The
acids produced by fungi, as they begin to dominate, lower the pH and
greatly reduce the amount of these bacteria. In fungally dominated soils,
much of the nitrogen remains in ammonium form. Ah, here is the rub:
chemical fertilizers provide plants with nitrogen, but most do so in the
form of nitrates (NO,,). An understanding of the soil food web makes it
clear, however, that plants that prefer fungally dominated soils
ultimately won't flourish on a diet of nitrates. Knowing this can make a
great deal of difference in the way you manage your gardens and yard. If
you can cause either fungi or bacteria to dominate, or provide an equal
mix (and you can Ð just how is explained in Part 2) , then plants can
get the kind of nitrogen they prefer, without chemicals, and thrive.

p 25 -26

Teaming with Microbes: A Gardener's Guide to the Soil Food Web
by Jeff Lowenfels, Wayne Lewis

¤ Publisher: Timber Press, Incorporated (July 15, 2006)
¤ ISBN-10: 0881927775
¤ ISBN-13: 978-0881927771

Finally

Gardengal Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2009 12:04:33 -0700 (PDT)

OTHER NATURAL PROCESSES THAT INCREASE SOIL ACIDITY INCLUDE ROOT GROWTH
AND DECAY OF ORGANIC MATTER BY SOIL MICROORGANISMS.(Capitals for
emphasis) Whereas the decay of organic matter gradually will
increase acidity, adding sources of organic matter with high pH
values (such as some manures and composts) can raise soil pH.

----
so at Sat, 4 Apr 2009 08:51:11 -0700 (PDT)
Gardengal said: PLANTS DO NOT MAKE SOIL ACIDIC

to

Sat, 4 Apr 2009 12:04:33 -0700 (PDT)
OTHER NATURAL PROCESSES THAT INCREASE SOIL ACIDITY INCLUDE ROOT GROWTH
AND DECAY OF ORGANIC MATTER BY SOIL MICROORGANISMS.

Q.E.D.
------

P.S. Actually, as Jeff Lowenfels pointed out, it's not the pH of the
soil that counts, it's the pH of the soil around the roots that count.

Good job, Billy. That's called hung by their own petards.

Confucius say they who profess expertise at Column A eat crow for dessert..
LOL

Kudo's from brooklyn1 must mean Dr Jekyll is in control at this time.
How long will he prevail ? Mr Hyde must be chaffing at the bit I kid you
not.

Confucius say they who profess expertise at Column A eat crow for
dessert.. LOL

Oh the joy in humiliation.

NOT.

Bill who does not throw stones as I have windows. An argument can be
resolved then the context can be made of no import by events.
For some reason I would not have brooklyn1 at my table. Scary I wrote
before.

Essentially he is a creep.

--
Garden in shade zone 5 S Jersey USA

Not all who wander are lost.
- J.R.R. Tolkien (1892-1973)

In article , Charlie wrote:

On Mon, 6 Apr 2009 14:01:48 +0000 (UTC), enigma
wrote:


i enjoy having a child that feels competent & helpful. NCLB is
about the stupidest thing to ever hit education. school board
meetings here make me ill, & feel so sad for the poor kids in the
local school. those are the next generation, folks. why are we
teaching them so poorly?
lee

Joe Bageant hits upon this in a recent series of lectures. This
article, I believe, explains why the system of education has become as
it is. It is by design, imnsho.

http://www.alternet.org/mediaculture...et_corporation
s_and_media_rob_our_souls_--_it%27s_time_to_do_something_meaningful/

Charlie

We are trying to do a cheap fix to a problem that doesn't exist. Even if
our students can't figure out an answer on a standardized exam, they
will have it memorized. Regurgitating the standardized answers on a
standardized exam will make them look smart. Problem is, nobody wants to
memorize. We will go to extremes to avoid the boredom of the rote
memorization of disembodied facts. Upon graduation, most students will
avoid taking another class. If they read, it will mostly be fiction.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...8/21/AR2007082
101045.html

Look, most of us go to work, and we slide through the day on information
that we already know. Students are always confronting the unknown at
least six hours a day, five days a week. A students job is very much
tougher than ours. We expect them to do it even though they are maturing
at different rates and function in different environments.

We should be encouraging kids to study what interests them, because that
is their motivation. It doesn't matter what it is (French doorknobs of
the 16th century, water colors, baking, or kung fu) because once you
learn to learn, you can learn anything. Everything connects to
everything. About a month ago, this newsgroup went through all the
different disciplines that relate to gardening. The list included
algebra, geometry, geology, chemistry, botany, physiology, zoology,
ecology, poetry, planning, tools, ergonomics, . . . The list goes on and
on.

Problem is, they may not have questions about those subjects a
particular student finds interesting on the standardized exams. There is
nothing wrong with our students but there is a whole lot wrong with the
system that they are in.

When those students who haven't been discouraged by our primary and
secondary schools enter college as adults, they face a 60 hour week if
they carry 15 units/semester (3 hours out of class for every hour in
class), and by and large, they do a damn fine job of it, if American
Nobel Prize winners are any indication.

Get off their backs and let them grow up, before we put the screws to
them.
--

- Billy
"For the first time in the history of the world, every human being
is now subjected to contact with dangerous chemicals, from the
moment of conception until death." - Rachel Carson

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI29wVQN8Go

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072040.html

In article , Charlie wrote:

On Sun, 05 Apr 2009 23:14:50 -0700, Billy
wrote:


Have a good dinner. I gotta go check the ribs.

Ribs?? Dude...it's sunday......change of routine??
Oh, Lovey was off spending night with her mom who just came back from
the hospital with her ticky-ticker. Beau and Lilly, a.k.a. The Hounds
from Hell, have been deprived since we kinda O.D.ed on ribs. Four hours
on the grill and the meat was about ready to slide off the bones.

I am drooling on the keyboard and checking the freezer...I think we
have a couple slabs on ice.........plenty of Gate's on hand....yep,
drooling will be relieved this weekend.

Good time had by all. Randy, the senior statesman of our cats was greatly
pleased as well. The new "Alpha" cat, Figaro has never quite figured out
bones but it ****es him off to see the other cats enjoying them.

I still laugh at the name Randy, given to a tomcat.....how fitting.

If you get a chance, rent "The Girl from Paris". It's a real old man's
movie. Er, at least it's what I would think would be an old man's movie.
It's in French with very good acting and great scenery of what I'd guess
would be the Jura.

Good save, "young" trout.

Damn....I guess I am just going to have to break down and get on the
line with that Netflixthingie. Have picked up a few extra expenses
lately, but should be able to schwing it.

Is it subtitled? No, damn, you said otherwise. As you know, my french
is a bit.......worse than my german. Although, I've watched
non-english films and enjoyed them without totally groking the dialog.

My French and German are good enough for being a tourist but far from
fluent. Yeah, the "Girl from Paris" is subtitled but the acting is superb
(to my taste) and the scenery is right out of "Heidi".

Two "perfect" French movies are the "Fanny Trilogy" (Marius, Fanny, and
Ceasar)
http://www.netflix.com/Movie/The_Fan...id=222336&lnkc
tr=srchrd-sr&strkid=1371623873_6_0
and Jean de Florette (Jean de Florette, and Manon du Source).
http://www.netflix.com/Movie/Jean_de...Spring/7007546
5?trkid=222336&lnkctr=srchrd-sr&strkid=842740283_0_0
They are adult movies but not in the adolescent "Playboy" sense.
Both are written by Marcel Pagnol.

There are so many good scenes in these movies but the most evocative for
me is when Ceasar reflexively turns, in conversation over cards, to his
old friend Honore Panisse and goes muet, because the chair is empty, as
his old friend had recently died.

No car chases. No gun fights, but a masterful exhibition of humanity.
"My schooling not only failed to teach me what it professed to be
teaching, but prevented me from being educated to an extent which
infuriates me when I think of all I might have learned at home by
myself." -- George Bernard Shaw

"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education."
-- Mark Twain

to be nobody but yourself - in a world which is doing it's best, night
and day, to make you like everybody else - means to fight the hardest
battle which any human being can fight, and never stop fighting. --
e.e. cummings


Sleep well.

I did, and I shall again this night. The morrow brings new wonders
and new battles, neh?

Charlie
--

- Billy
"For the first time in the history of the world, every human being
is now subjected to contact with dangerous chemicals, from the
moment of conception until death." - Rachel Carson

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI29wVQN8Go

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072040.html

In article
,
Billy wrote:

We are trying to do a cheap fix to a problem that doesn't exist. Even if
our students can't figure out an answer on a standardized exam, they
will have it memorized. Regurgitating the standardized answers on a
standardized exam will make them look smart. Problem is, nobody wants to
memorize. We will go to extremes to avoid the boredom of the rote
memorization of disembodied facts. Upon graduation, most students will
avoid taking another class. If they read, it will mostly be fiction.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...8/21/AR2007082
101045.html

Look, most of us go to work, and we slide through the day on information
that we already know. Students are always confronting the unknown at
least six hours a day, five days a week. A students job is very much
tougher than ours. We expect them to do it even though they are maturing
at different rates and function in different environments.

We should be encouraging kids to study what interests them, because that
is their motivation. It doesn't matter what it is (French doorknobs of
the 16th century, water colors, baking, or kung fu) because once you
learn to learn, you can learn anything. Everything connects to
everything. About a month ago, this newsgroup went through all the
different disciplines that relate to gardening. The list included
algebra, geometry, geology, chemistry, botany, physiology, zoology,
ecology, poetry, planning, tools, ergonomics, . . . The list goes on and
on.

Problem is, they may not have questions about those subjects a
particular student finds interesting on the standardized exams. There is
nothing wrong with our students but there is a whole lot wrong with the
system that they are in.

When those students who haven't been discouraged by our primary and
secondary schools enter college as adults, they face a 60 hour week if
they carry 15 units/semester (3 hours out of class for every hour in
class), and by and large, they do a damn fine job of it, if American
Nobel Prize winners are any indication.

Get off their backs and let them grow up, before we put the screws to
them.
--

I'm sorry. The above is only the pro argument for less structured
learning. Obviously, reports still must be written, read, and critiqued
in a timely manner, so that school isn't just daycare.

I find that time may, again, have passed me by, but as I remember it, at
the age of 12 in France, students took an exam that determined whether
they would be placed on a vocational track or college preparation. As
you might see, this placed an incredible amount of stress on immature
minds and lead to higher levels of suicide among adolescents than in the
U.S. I believe that is true for other European countries as well as
Japan. I don't have the time to dig up the cites that I need for this
argument. Perhaps, someone more knowledgeable in this area than I, can
support or refute my assertions.
--

- Billy
"For the first time in the history of the world, every human being
is now subjected to contact with dangerous chemicals, from the
moment of conception until death." - Rachel Carson

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI29wVQN8Go

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072040.html

I agree that this is not just a shadow, but it did not do anything and soil acidity. Plants do not make the soil acid - acid soil occurred as a result of the mineral content and amount of rainfall. Victoria noted that many in Texas are chalk, limestone soil and comparison low rainfall, many Texas dynamometer soil more alkaline than acidic.