May 1, 1886

The Struggle for the Eight-Hour Day

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haymarket_Riot
May Day parade and strikes

In October 1884, a convention held by the Federation of Organized Trades
and Labor Unions unanimously set May 1, 1886, as the date by which the
eight-hour work day would become standard.[10] When May 1, 1886
approached, American labor unions prepared for a general strike in
support of the eight-hour day.[11]
On Saturday, May 1, rallies were held throughout the United States.
There were an estimated 10,000 demonstrators in New York[12] and 11,000
in Detroit.[13] In Milwaukee, Wisconsin some 10,000 workers turned
out.[13] The movement's center was in Chicago, where an estimated 40,000
workers went on strike.[14] Albert Parsons was an anarchist and founder
of the International Working People's Association (IWPA). Parsons, with
his wife Lucy and their children, led a march of 80,000 people down
Michigan Avenue.[14] Another 10,000 men employed in the lumber yards
held a separate march in Chicago.[15] Estimates of the total number of
striking American workers range from 300,000[14] to half a million.[15]


The first flier calling for a rally in the Haymarket on May 4.


The revised flier for the rally. The words Workingmen Arm Yourselves and
Appear in Full Force! have been removed.
On May 3, striking workers in Chicago met near the McCormick Harvesting
Machine Co. plant. Union molders at the plant had been locked out since
early February and the predominantly Irish-American workers at McCormick
had come under attack from Pinkerton guards during an earlier strike
action in 1885. This event, along with the eight-hour militancy of
McCormick workers, had gained the strikers some respect and notoriety
around the city. By the time of the 1886 general strike, strikebreakers
entering the McCormick plant were under protection from a garrison of
400 police officers. Although half of the replacement workers defected
to the general strike on May 1, McCormick workers continued to harass
"scabs" who crossed the picket lines. Speaking to a rally outside the
plant on May 3, August Spies advised the striking workers to "hold
together, to stand by their union, or they would not succeed."[16]
Well-planned and coordinated, the general strike to this point had
remained largely nonviolent. When the end-of-the-workday bell sounded,
however, a group of workers surged to the gates to confront the
strikebreakers. Despite calls by Spies for the workers to remain calm,
gunfire erupted as police fired on the crowd. In the end, two McCormick
workers were killed (although some newspaper accounts said there were
six fatalities).[17] Spies would later testify, "I was very indignant. I
knew from experience of the past that this butchering of people was done
for the express purpose of defeating the eight-hour movement."[16]
Outraged by this act of police violence, local anarchists quickly
printed and distributed fliers calling for a rally the following day at
Haymarket Square (also called the Haymarket), which at the time was a
bustling commercial center near the corner of Randolph Street and Des
Plaines Street. These fliers, which were printed in both German and
English, alleged police had murdered the strikers on behalf of business
interests and urged workers to seek justice. The first batch of fliers
contain the words Workingmen Arm Yourselves and Appear in Full Force!
When Spies saw the line, he said he wouldn't speak at the rally unless
the words were removed from the flier. All but a few hundred of the
fliers were destroyed, and new fliers were printed without the offending
words.[18] More than 20,000 copies of the revised flier were
distributed.[19]
------

Progress always comes at the cost of a struggle.
--

- Billy
"For the first time in the history of the world, every human being
is now subjected to contact with dangerous chemicals, from the
moment of conception until death." - Rachel Carson

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI29wVQN8Go

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072040.html
--

- Billy
"For the first time in the history of the world, every human being
is now subjected to contact with dangerous chemicals, from the
moment of conception until death." - Rachel Carson

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI29wVQN8Go

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072040.html

In article , Charlie wrote:

On Fri, 01 May 2009 17:47:54 -0700, Billy
wrote:

May 1, 1886

The Struggle for the Eight-Hour Day

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haymarket_Riot
May Day parade and strikes


You big dope......didn't you know that this was replaced by Loyalty
Day? What are ya' some sorta damned commie pinko, huh?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loyalty_Day

Loyalty Day is observed on May 1 in the United States. It is a day set
aside for the reaffirmation of loyalty to the United States and for
the recognition of the heritage of American freedom.

The holiday was first observed in 1921[2] as "Americanization Day,"[3]
and was intended to counterbalance the celebration of Labour Day on
May Day (May 1), an internationally celebrated holiday which was
perceived as communist.

Loyalty Day is celebrated with parades and ceremonies in several U.S.
communities, although many people in the United States remain unaware
of it. Although a legal holiday, it is not a federal holiday, and is
not commonly observed.

It was made an official holiday by the U.S. Congress on July 18, 1958
(Public Law 85-529).[4][5] Following the passage of this law,
President Dwight D. Eisenhower proclaimed May 1, 1959 the first
official observance of Loyalty Day. [6]

In 2007 President George W. Bush issued an official proclamation of
the May 1, 2007 Loyalty Day in accordance with the 1958 Congressional
declaration,[7] as have many of his predecessors:

* Bill Clinton, proclamation 6556 (May 1, 1993) [8]
* George H. W. Bush, proclamation 5962 (April 28, 1989) [9]
* Ronald Reagan, proclamation 4836 (April 14, 1981) [10]
* Jimmy Carter, proclamation 4493 (March 23, 1977) [11]
* Gerald Ford, proclamation 4354 (March 4, 1975) [12]
* John F. Kennedy, proclamation 3528 (April 18, 1963) [13]


As did our newest prez....
http://polfeeds.com/item/Proclamatio...day-Regarding-
Loyalty-Day

Eff 'em all. This isn't about an -ism. It's about R-E-S-P-E-C-T.

Charlie

"Years ago I recognized my kinship with all living things, and I made
up my mind that I was not one bit better than the meanest on the
earth. I said then and I say now, that while there is a lower class, I
am in it; while there is a criminal element, I am of it; while there
is a soul in prison, I am not free."

------- Eugene V. Debs:

Freedom is a constant struggle. It was purchased with the precious blood
of men and women, like you and I, dreaming of a better day for all our
children. Don't give back an inch. All work is worthy of respect.

Write your Representatives to vote no on HR 875
http://www.opednews.com/articles/A-s...-by-Linn-Cohen
-Cole-090314-67.html


I believe that liberty is the only genuinely valuable thing that men
have invented, at least in the field of government, in a thousand years.
I believe that it is better to be free than to be not free, even when
the former is dangerous and the latter safe. I believe that the finest
qualities of man can flourish only in free air - that progress made
under the shadow of the policeman's club is false progress, and of no
permanent value. I believe that any man who takes the liberty of another
into his keeping is bound to become a tyrant, and that any man who yields
up his liberty, in however slight the measure, is bound to become a
slave.
- H. L. Mencken
--

- Billy
"For the first time in the history of the world, every human being
is now subjected to contact with dangerous chemicals, from the
moment of conception until death." - Rachel Carson

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI29wVQN8Go

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072040.html

On May 2, 1:07*am, Billy wrote:
In article , Charlie wrote:
On Fri, 01 May 2009 17:47:54 -0700, Billy
wrote:

May 1, 1886

The Struggle for the Eight-Hour Day

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haymarket_Riot
May Day parade and strikes

You big dope......didn't you know that this was replaced by Loyalty
Day? *What are ya' some sorta damned commie pinko, huh?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loyalty_Day

Loyalty Day is observed on May 1 in the United States. It is a day set
aside for the reaffirmation of loyalty to the United States and for
the recognition of the heritage of American freedom.

The holiday was first observed in 1921[2] as "Americanization Day,"[3]
and was intended to counterbalance the celebration of Labour Day on
May Day (May 1), an internationally celebrated holiday which was
perceived as communist.

Loyalty Day is celebrated with parades and ceremonies in several U.S.
communities, although many people in the United States remain unaware
of it. Although a legal holiday, it is not a federal holiday, and is
not commonly observed.

It was made an official holiday by the U.S. Congress on July 18, 1958
(Public Law 85-529).[4][5] Following the passage of this law,
President Dwight D. Eisenhower proclaimed May 1, 1959 the first
official observance of Loyalty Day. [6]

In 2007 President George W. Bush issued an official proclamation of
the May 1, 2007 Loyalty Day in accordance with the 1958 Congressional
declaration,[7] as have many of his predecessors:

* * * Bill Clinton, proclamation 6556 (May 1, 1993) [8]
* * * George H. W. Bush, proclamation 5962 (April 28, 1989) [9]
* * * Ronald Reagan, proclamation 4836 (April 14, 1981) [10]
* * * Jimmy Carter, proclamation 4493 (March 23, 1977) [11]
* * * Gerald Ford, proclamation 4354 (March 4, 1975) [12]
* * * John F. Kennedy, proclamation 3528 (April 18, 1963) [13]

As did our newest prez....
http://polfeeds.com/item/Proclamatio...sident-Today-R...
Loyalty-Day

Eff 'em all. This isn't about an -ism. It's about R-E-S-P-E-C-T.

Charlie

"Years ago I recognized my kinship with all living things, and I made
up my mind that I was not one bit better than the meanest on the
earth. I said then and I say now, that while there is a lower class, I
am in it; while there is a criminal element, I am of it; while there
is a soul in prison, I am not free."

* * * * * * * * * ------- * Eugene V. Debs:

Freedom is a constant struggle. It was purchased with the precious blood
of men and women, like you and I, dreaming of a better day for all our
children. Don't give back an inch. All work is worthy of respect.

Write your Representatives to vote no on HR 875http://www.opednews.com/articles/A-solemn-walk-through-HR-8-by-Linn-C...
-Cole-090314-67.html

I believe that liberty is the only genuinely valuable thing that men
have invented, at least in the field of government, in a thousand years.
I believe that it is better to be free than to be not free, even when
the former is dangerous and the latter safe. *I believe that the finest
qualities of man can flourish only in free air - that progress made
under the shadow of the policeman's club is false progress, and of no
permanent value. *I believe that any man who takes the liberty of another
into his keeping is bound to become a tyrant, and that any man who yields
up his liberty, in however slight the measure, is bound to become a
slave.
* * * - H. L. Mencken
--

- Billy
"For the first time in the history of the world, every human being
is now subjected to contact with dangerous chemicals, from the
moment of conception until death." *- Rachel Carson

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI29wVQN8Go

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072040.html


children. Don't give back an inch. All work is worthy of respect.


It took me a long time to realize that.

I ended up working at the same fast food place twice. In the
beginning, all I saw was big corp. USA exploiting all the little
people to make a profit. I would work for them because I had no other
easy choice, but I wasn't going to try very hard.

After about the first year, I quit to help some friends start up a
retail shop and e-commerce site. The store only lasted about a year
before the investor pulled the plug, so I started my own internet
store for a while. This is actually possible with almost no initial
capital investment, which was what I had at the time.

Running my own business, even just for a little while, showed my
exactly how much work has to go into it. The level of orders always
seemed to match the amount of work I was putting into the website.
That was the smallest and only fun part of it. After that, there was
purchasing, shipping, customer service, inventory, accounting, taxes
(easy if the accounting is done), &c.

It was a fun experiment, but I eventually decided to go get my fast
food job back. I still didn't care much for the company, but I felt I
should give that job everything I had either way. I was the one
putting myself into that situation. The most noticeable change was in
my attitude toward the customers. I actually CARED about them, before
I had been blaming them for my terrible situation, when I was the one
to blame.

The place did eventually start making me crazy, but then I ran into a
really cool bum job at school, which would pay almost as much. Then
not long after that, my wife and I had a baby, so I had to quit
messing around to go find a job that would pay a living wage.

There is a book I had read before all of this called The Hacker Ethic.
http://www.amazon.com/Hacker-Ethic-P.../dp/0375505660
The author talks about the Hacker Ethic and compares it to the
Protestant work ethic. This book really got me to think about my own
reasons for working. I had never heard the term "work ethic" before
reading this book.

There were a number of other influences during this time, but it would
take some trying to remember all the details. I still don't think too
highly of that unnamed fast food chain. I feel that any profitable
company should be paying its workers a living wage, at the very least.
There are a lot of people who have no choice but to work long hours at
a job which doesn't pay them enough to feed, clothe, and house
themselves and their families. To turn a profit from their situation,
I feel, is exploitation. At the same time, this would be a great
improvement for many people.

In article
,
Mycosimian wrote:

On May 2, 1:07*am, Billy wrote:
In article , Charlie wrote:
On Fri, 01 May 2009 17:47:54 -0700, Billy
wrote:

May 1, 1886

The Struggle for the Eight-Hour Day

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haymarket_Riot
May Day parade and strikes

You big dope......didn't you know that this was replaced by Loyalty
Day? *What are ya' some sorta damned commie pinko, huh?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loyalty_Day

Loyalty Day is observed on May 1 in the United States. It is a day set
aside for the reaffirmation of loyalty to the United States and for
the recognition of the heritage of American freedom.

The holiday was first observed in 1921[2] as "Americanization Day,"[3]
and was intended to counterbalance the celebration of Labour Day on
May Day (May 1), an internationally celebrated holiday which was
perceived as communist.

Loyalty Day is celebrated with parades and ceremonies in several U.S.
communities, although many people in the United States remain unaware
of it. Although a legal holiday, it is not a federal holiday, and is
not commonly observed.

It was made an official holiday by the U.S. Congress on July 18, 1958
(Public Law 85-529).[4][5] Following the passage of this law,
President Dwight D. Eisenhower proclaimed May 1, 1959 the first
official observance of Loyalty Day. [6]

In 2007 President George W. Bush issued an official proclamation of
the May 1, 2007 Loyalty Day in accordance with the 1958 Congressional
declaration,[7] as have many of his predecessors:

* * * Bill Clinton, proclamation 6556 (May 1, 1993) [8]
* * * George H. W. Bush, proclamation 5962 (April 28, 1989) [9]
* * * Ronald Reagan, proclamation 4836 (April 14, 1981) [10]
* * * Jimmy Carter, proclamation 4493 (March 23, 1977) [11]
* * * Gerald Ford, proclamation 4354 (March 4, 1975) [12]
* * * John F. Kennedy, proclamation 3528 (April 18, 1963) [13]

As did our newest prez....
http://polfeeds.com/item/Proclamatio...sident-Today-R...
Loyalty-Day

Eff 'em all. This isn't about an -ism. It's about R-E-S-P-E-C-T.

Charlie

"Years ago I recognized my kinship with all living things, and I made
up my mind that I was not one bit better than the meanest on the
earth. I said then and I say now, that while there is a lower class, I
am in it; while there is a criminal element, I am of it; while there
is a soul in prison, I am not free."

* * * * * * * * * ------- * Eugene V. Debs:

Freedom is a constant struggle. It was purchased with the precious blood
of men and women, like you and I, dreaming of a better day for all our
children. Don't give back an inch. All work is worthy of respect.

Write your Representatives to vote no on HR
875http://www.opednews.com/articles/A-solemn-walk-through-HR-8-by-Linn-C...
-Cole-090314-67.html

I believe that liberty is the only genuinely valuable thing that men
have invented, at least in the field of government, in a thousand years.
I believe that it is better to be free than to be not free, even when
the former is dangerous and the latter safe. *I believe that the finest
qualities of man can flourish only in free air - that progress made
under the shadow of the policeman's club is false progress, and of no
permanent value. *I believe that any man who takes the liberty of another
into his keeping is bound to become a tyrant, and that any man who yields
up his liberty, in however slight the measure, is bound to become a
slave.
* * * - H. L. Mencken
--

- Billy
"For the first time in the history of the world, every human being
is now subjected to contact with dangerous chemicals, from the
moment of conception until death." *- Rachel Carson

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI29wVQN8Go

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072040.html


children. Don't give back an inch. All work is worthy of respect.


It took me a long time to realize that.

I ended up working at the same fast food place twice. In the
beginning, all I saw was big corp. USA exploiting all the little
people to make a profit. I would work for them because I had no other
easy choice, but I wasn't going to try very hard.

After about the first year, I quit to help some friends start up a
retail shop and e-commerce site. The store only lasted about a year
before the investor pulled the plug, so I started my own internet
store for a while. This is actually possible with almost no initial
capital investment, which was what I had at the time.

Running my own business, even just for a little while, showed my
exactly how much work has to go into it. The level of orders always
seemed to match the amount of work I was putting into the website.
That was the smallest and only fun part of it. After that, there was
purchasing, shipping, customer service, inventory, accounting, taxes
(easy if the accounting is done), &c.

It was a fun experiment, but I eventually decided to go get my fast
food job back. I still didn't care much for the company, but I felt I
should give that job everything I had either way. I was the one
putting myself into that situation. The most noticeable change was in
my attitude toward the customers. I actually CARED about them, before
I had been blaming them for my terrible situation, when I was the one
to blame.

The place did eventually start making me crazy, but then I ran into a
really cool bum job at school, which would pay almost as much. Then
not long after that, my wife and I had a baby, so I had to quit
messing around to go find a job that would pay a living wage.

There is a book I had read before all of this called The Hacker Ethic.
http://www.amazon.com/Hacker-Ethic-P.../dp/0375505660
The author talks about the Hacker Ethic and compares it to the
Protestant work ethic. This book really got me to think about my own
reasons for working. I had never heard the term "work ethic" before
reading this book.

There were a number of other influences during this time, but it would
take some trying to remember all the details. I still don't think too
highly of that unnamed fast food chain. I feel that any profitable
company should be paying its workers a living wage, at the very least.
There are a lot of people who have no choice but to work long hours at
a job which doesn't pay them enough to feed, clothe, and house
themselves and their families. To turn a profit from their situation,
I feel, is exploitation. At the same time, this would be a great
improvement for many people.

The original May 1 celebration is a good thing. However I feel it has
been co-opted. Many of my peers in the work place 1990 bragged about
how much overtime they got. In my immediate family I have a brother a
grad of Berkeley School of music that worked 12 hours a day 7 days a
week and after 25 years lost it and no pension. This as a Nursery
Manager. Now he works 6 days a week 12 hours with a 401 K. Yea good
money but what a life.

Bill

Excellent book

"The Poverty Of Affluence" subtitled "A Psychological Portrait of the
American Way of Life". By Paul L. Wachtel

Check out the reviews.


http://www.amazon.com/Poverty-Afflue...rait-American/
dp/0865711518/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1241274971&sr=1-1

--
Garden in shade zone 5 S Jersey USA

Not all who wander are lost.
- J.R.R. Tolkien (1892-1973)

In article
,
Mycosimian wrote:

Running my own business, even just for a little while, showed my
exactly how much work has to go into it. The level of orders always
seemed to match the amount of work I was putting into the website.
That was the smallest and only fun part of it. After that, there was
purchasing, shipping, customer service, inventory, accounting, taxes
(easy if the accounting is done), &c.

When you work for yourself, you work for a real SOB.
--

- Billy
"For the first time in the history of the world, every human being
is now subjected to contact with dangerous chemicals, from the
moment of conception until death." - Rachel Carson

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI29wVQN8Go

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072040.html

In article
,
Billy wrote:

In article , Charlie wrote:

On Fri, 01 May 2009 17:47:54 -0700, Billy
wrote:

May 1, 1886

The Struggle for the Eight-Hour Day

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haymarket_Riot
May Day parade and strikes

In article , Charlie wrote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loyalty_Day

Loyalty Day is observed on May 1 in the United States. It is a day set
aside for the reaffirmation of loyalty to the United States and for
the recognition of the heritage of American freedom.

The holiday was first observed in 1921[2] as "Americanization Day,"[3]
and was intended to counterbalance the celebration of Labour Day on
May Day (May 1), an internationally celebrated holiday which was
perceived as communist.

Loyalty Day is celebrated with parades and ceremonies in several U.S.
communities, although many people in the United States remain unaware
of it. Although a legal holiday, it is not a federal holiday, and is
not commonly observed.

It was made an official holiday by the U.S. Congress on July 18, 1958
(Public Law 85-529).[4][5] Following the passage of this law,
President Dwight D. Eisenhower proclaimed May 1, 1959 the first
official observance of Loyalty Day. [6]
---

I was one of the many who had never hear of this atrocity, a perfidious
sham celebration to obscure class warfare, and what the workers of the
world knew to be a true working person's victory.

Workers of the world, who enjoy eight hour days, and forty hour
weeks, owe the victim's of the Haymarket Massacre the debt to never
forget their sacrifice.
-----

I believe that liberty is the only genuinely valuable thing that men
have invented, at least in the field of government, in a thousand years.
I believe that it is better to be free than to be not free, even when
the former is dangerous and the latter safe. I believe that the finest
qualities of man can flourish only in free air - that progress made
under the shadow of the policeman's club is false progress, and of no
permanent value. I believe that any man who takes the liberty of another
into his keeping is bound to become a tyrant, and that any man who yields
up his liberty, in however slight the measure, is bound to become a
slave.
- H. L. Mencken
--

- Billy
"For the first time in the history of the world, every human being
is now subjected to contact with dangerous chemicals, from the
moment of conception until death." - Rachel Carson

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI29wVQN8Go

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072040.html

In article ,
Bill wrote:

The original May 1 celebration is a good thing. However I feel it has
been co-opted. Many of my peers in the work place 1990 bragged about
how much overtime they got. In my immediate family I have a brother a
grad of Berkeley School of music that worked 12 hours a day 7 days a
week and after 25 years lost it and no pension. This as a Nursery
Manager. Now he works 6 days a week 12 hours with a 401 K. Yea good
money but what a life.

Bill

Excellent book

"The Poverty Of Affluence" subtitled "A Psychological Portrait of the
American Way of Life". By Paul L. Wachtel

Check out the reviews.


http://www.amazon.com/Poverty-Afflue...rait-American/
dp/0865711518/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1241274971&sr=1-1

--
Garden in shade zone 5 S Jersey USA

Not all who wander are lost.
- J.R.R. Tolkien (1892-1973)


Funny thing, success. Commonly in Europe it is gaged by service to your
family. Here in America, it is gaged by service to your job.
--

- Billy
"For the first time in the history of the world, every human being
is now subjected to contact with dangerous chemicals, from the
moment of conception until death." - Rachel Carson

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI29wVQN8Go

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072040.html

"Billy" wrote in message

Funny thing, success. Commonly in Europe it is gaged by service to your
family. Here in America, it is gaged by service to your job.

But at what cost to the workers?

A couple of nights ago, we went to the local chew and spew for a meal.

Funny little place. The food is edible without being much more than that
and reasonably priced for what it is. Competent waitresses who are neither
friendly nor overly surly - just don't spill the food off the plate as they
put it in front of you. If you want a drink you have to get it from the
bar.

When we left and were driving home, my husband said that he thought the
waitress expected a tip. I asked why he hadn't left one. His response was
that no-one had done more than they were paid to do so he wasn't going to
give them a tip to reward non exertion.

He then went on to say that it was almost like being in America where
tipping was not only expected but, in some cases, demanded.

He's been to the US a lot for work but I know his attitude to rewarding non
performance so asking him how he'd survived in the US. He said there had
been a number of 'ugly scenes' and that he had been told on a number of
occasions that the wages were so low that staff depended on tips to make
ends meet. His response was that he was responsible for paying a bill and
not their wages and that they should take it up with their employer. If
their employers were incapable of pricing the full cost of service then
there was no way that he would be expected to pay what was in effect the
staff's wages. Knowing him, I can just imagine it woul dhave been an 'ugly
scene'. I also know that if a tip had been demanded and not deserved, the
sky could have fallen on him before he'd have parted with a cent.

If what he says is anything near the truth (and I've never yet caught him
lieing) then Labor Day and all that implies sounds far more appropriate than
a Liberty Day.

Charlie wrote in message
On Sun, 3 May 2009 10:46:37 +1000, "FarmI" ask@itshall be given
wrote:

"Billy" wrote in message

Funny thing, success. Commonly in Europe it is gaged by service to your
family. Here in America, it is gaged by service to your job.

But at what cost to the workers?

A couple of nights ago, we went to the local chew and spew for a meal.

Funny little place. The food is edible without being much more than that
and reasonably priced for what it is. Competent waitresses who are
neither
friendly nor overly surly - just don't spill the food off the plate as
they
put it in front of you. If you want a drink you have to get it from the
bar.

When we left and were driving home, my husband said that he thought the
waitress expected a tip. I asked why he hadn't left one. His response
was
that no-one had done more than they were paid to do so he wasn't going to
give them a tip to reward non exertion.

And what are his criteria for being deserving of a tip?


He then went on to say that it was almost like being in America where
tipping was not only expected but, in some cases, demanded.

.........where servers are oftimes treated like chattel.

He's been to the US a lot for work but I know his attitude to rewarding
non
performance so asking him how he'd survived in the US. He said there had
been a number of 'ugly scenes' and that he had been told on a number of
occasions that the wages were so low that staff depended on tips to make
ends meet. His response was that he was responsible for paying a bill and
not their wages and that they should take it up with their employer. If
their employers were incapable of pricing the full cost of service then
there was no way that he would be expected to pay what was in effect the
staff's wages. Knowing him, I can just imagine it woul dhave been an
'ugly
scene'. I also know that if a tip had been demanded and not deserved, the
sky could have fallen on him before he'd have parted with a cent.

And what are his criteria for being deserving of a tip?

That the staff make some effort to do more than what they are paid wages to
do.

If what he says is anything near the truth (and I've never yet caught him
lieing) then Labor Day and all that implies sounds far more appropriate
than
a Liberty Day.

Sorry to sound churlish, but were I a food server, I wouldn't kiss his
ass at all and he could go elsewhere or eat his food out of his lap
where it would be deposited.

You are paid to serve food. If you are paid to be incompetent then
certainly serve the food in their lap.

If you are paid wages to serve the food on the plate and to place that plate
in front of the cusomer then that is what you are paid wages to do.

Servers at many places in this country bust their asses at an oftimes
thankless job, for substandard wages, working gawdawful hours and have
to suffer customer attitudes that most of us wouldn't tolerate.

You've missed the point entirely.

The whole idea of giving a wage to staff is that the money is compensation
for doing the work. If that work involves long hours and rotten customers
then the employer needs to pay sufficient wages so that staff will want to
continue to work there.

There is nothing wrong with being straightforward, but being stingy
with those who are less fortunate just plain sucks. And getting ugly
with servers sucks. I've seen it often and it is rude.

No, it's ugly and its rude to expect a tip for doing something for which a
wage is paid.

Wages are what staff are paid for just doing their job. A tip is a reward.
Just doing one's job is not sufficient justification to expect a tip.

It is not, or certainly should not, be considered to be anything other than
at the discretion of the customer. If service is such that it warrants a
tip, a tip will be given.

I'll let it go with that as we have had agreeable exchanges in the
past and I don't wish to cross with you , concerning with this issue.

Why do you think employers can get away with paying a lousy salary but
expect customers to make up for their stinginess?

The customer doesn't employ the staff. The customer is paying the business
to provide a service. The cost of that service includes adequate wages for
the work done. If the business is not prepared to pay staff a decent salary
and staff NEED to be given tips, then the business is trying to lay off
their costs in staff wages onto the customer. The customer is in effect
being charged twice over for the service.

Your response makes me think even more strongly that a Labor Day is more
appropriate than a Liberty Day.

Charlie wrote in message
On Sun, 3 May 2009 14:06:09 +1000, "FarmI" ask@itshall be given
wrote:

Your response makes me think even more strongly that a Labor Day is more
appropriate than a Liberty Day.

And here we arguing differing customs in two different countries, eh?
Let's be careful.

Charlie you never, ever disappoint me :-))

I knew you'd figure it out. :-))

http://www.tripadvisor.com/Travel-g1...Etiquette.html

http://www.tripadvisor.com/Travel-g2...Etiquette.html


Is the information in this site correct? That the minimum wage is
nearly double in oz what it is in the US?

Dunno, but I know I nearly fell of my chair after 9/11 when I read years ago
in another ng that the new people employed to do security at US airports
were being paid $US3/hour. That is so low that no-one should be expected to
work for that, ever.

Pay rates depend on the job of course but if there is no Award that covers
the job then the minmum you can be paid by law is $14.31/hour which works
out to $10.48 in your money. Traditionally we don't have many people who'd
be on minimum wages.

Tipping certainly isn't common here other than at good restaurants. The one
we went to the other day is not the sort of place where you'd normal tip
anytime.


What about benefits? How
many servers in the US are elible for or receive benefits? Damn few.

Ummm not sure what you are asking here.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/art...to_expect.html

and this?

http://www.fairpay.gov.au/

Give me a ****ing break. Before you go busting the balls of servers
in the US, or mine,

Charlie I'd never bust your balls. I might give them a little poke like I
have in this series of posts though.

or someone who stands for fairp(l)ay you better
consider the wage differences, if I read them correctly.

Yes. That is why you workers in the US need a Labor day along with all that
implies. You are being screwed and that appalls me.

What server is going to give more than minimal service to someone who
is not going to tip or comes across with the attitude you describe, in
the US? I wouldn't and I'd hazard a guess that you wouldn't either.

Nope. I'd be out there joining a union and fighting for the rights of
workers in your situation. I've been engaged in a lot of union stouches on
both sides of the fence, as a negotiator on behalf of management and as a
negotiator on behalf of workers.

You rightly observe that many americans are rude towards aussies

Nope, I didn't observe that.

and I
observe that when in another's country you observe local and national
customs in order that you don't appear a ****ing dick.

Tell your husband to consult a travel guide.

Waste of time Charlie. He may have ben highly competent at his job before he
retired but you wouldn't let him out alone if you had any sense. In Chicago
he asked a black woman how to get somewhere and he and another white middle
class white Australian Honkie (is that the term?) went the way she'd go.
They ended up on a train where they were the only white faces and then got
off the train in what was a black slum where they were the only white faces
in sight. Even I had trouble believing he'd be so silly but you should hear
what an American friend who lives in New York says about it.


I don't give a fat
baby's ass how you do or don't tip in your local, but don't have the
arrogance to assume that your attitude and custom towards this issue
is the ****all end of the matter.

Huh? Now you've dropped into a vernacular that I don't understand at all.

"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote:

If you are paid wages to serve the food on the plate and to place that plate
in front of the cusomer then that is what you are paid wages to do.

In the U.S. the minimum wage for servers is lower than for other workers,
and the tax folk assume you get tips. Like it or not, that's the custom,
and anybody who doesn't tip at all for normal service is a cheap *******,
who will likely get all sorts of festive additives to his food if he comes
back.
[Note: this was the cleaned-up version; my sweetie who used to wait table
suggested much stronger terms.]


Gary Woods AKA K2AHC- PGP key on request, or at home.earthlink.net/~garygarlic
Zone 5/6 in upstate New York, 1420' elevation. NY WO G

"Gary Woods" wrote in message
"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote:

If you are paid wages to serve the food on the plate and to place that
plate
in front of the cusomer then that is what you are paid wages to do.

In the U.S. the minimum wage for servers is lower than for other workers,
and the tax folk assume you get tips.

That is immoral on a number of counts.

Like it or not, that's the custom,

Yes. So why doesn't anyone think about the custom and start to question why
it is that way?

Or are you just happy to continue to blame the customers for being cheap
rather than the employers who arent' prepared to pay a decent wage?

and anybody who doesn't tip at all for normal service is a cheap *******,
who will likely get all sorts of festive additives to his food if he comes
back.

Yes that point has already been made by Charlie.

The point that I am making and which continually seems to be overlooked is
that your workers are being screwed. The US needs a Labor Day rather than a
Libery Day or are you all just happy to sit back and continue to be screwed
forever?

"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote:

The US needs a Labor Day rather than a
Libery Day or are you all just happy to sit back and continue to be screwed
forever?

No argument at all there... the minimum wage is government set, and
especially in the current labor market employers generally don't pay more
than they have to.
The fact remains that the customer should be aware of the situation and not
take the mean-spirited "They're already getting paid to do this; I'm not
giving them any more" approach. In some places a gratuity is added to the
bill up front. Not common in the U.S. except for large groups.


Gary Woods AKA K2AHC- PGP key on request, or at home.earthlink.net/~garygarlic
Zone 5/6 in upstate New York, 1420' elevation. NY WO G

In article
,
"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote:

"Gary Woods" wrote in message
"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote:

If you are paid wages to serve the food on the plate and to place that
plate
in front of the cusomer then that is what you are paid wages to do.

In the U.S. the minimum wage for servers is lower than for other workers,
and the tax folk assume you get tips.

That is immoral on a number of counts.

Like it or not, that's the custom,

Yes. So why doesn't anyone think about the custom and start to question why
it is that way?

Or are you just happy to continue to blame the customers for being cheap
rather than the employers who arent' prepared to pay a decent wage?

and anybody who doesn't tip at all for normal service is a cheap *******,
who will likely get all sorts of festive additives to his food if he comes
back.

Yes that point has already been made by Charlie.

The point that I am making and which continually seems to be overlooked is
that your workers are being screwed. The US needs a Labor Day rather than a
Libery Day or are you all just happy to sit back and continue to be screwed
forever?

A little Vaseline (not too much sand, like the old days) and being told
that we are number one (Spend half of the worlds war money on weapons,
WORLD"S money, not just our enemies[ the guys that don't roll over] but
half the WORLD'S M-O-N-E-Y. We are the largest thing in conservative
governments since the Third Reich. Over the top? Wars are continuing,
Presidential ability to withhold information continues, the transfer of
wealth to the rich continues, grinding debt on those who were encouraged
(by Shrub:
http://federalism.typepad.com/crime_...ge-w-bush-c.ht
ml ) to take a chance and buy a house. Torture is not forbidden,
continued detention, with no charges continues. Eavesdropping on
citizens continues.

We are given a lollypop and the pillage continues. HELLO!
On the sane (mine-not my environment's) side of gardening.
I broadcast some more onion seeds into the combo onion patch.
Adjusted paving stones in garden and seeded between the stones with
clover. Did a bit of pruning, and checked under clear plastic lids to
see if seedlings needed water (checked the troops). Hopefully, I'll get
my terracing done tomorrow and the pepper patch, mulched.
--

- Billy
"For the first time in the history of the world, every human being
is now subjected to contact with dangerous chemicals, from the
moment of conception until death." - Rachel Carson

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI29wVQN8Go

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072040.html

In article ,
Gary Woods wrote:

"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote:

The US needs a Labor Day rather than a
Libery Day or are you all just happy to sit back and continue to be screwed
forever?

No argument at all there... the minimum wage is government set, and
especially in the current labor market employers generally don't pay more
than they have to.
The fact remains that the customer should be aware of the situation and not
take the mean-spirited "They're already getting paid to do this; I'm not
giving them any more" approach. In some places a gratuity is added to the
bill up front. Not common in the U.S. except for large groups.


Gary Woods AKA K2AHC- PGP key on request, or at home.earthlink.net/~garygarlic
Zone 5/6 in upstate New York, 1420' elevation. NY WO G

If you know, going-in, that the wait-staff will expect a tip, and you go
in anyway, what are you saying but, "OK, I agree to the terms of
service". Saying that, the range of tips that I have left, range from
$50 to 1 cent (I didn't want him to think that I forgot). If you receive
less than satisfactory service, leave a less than satisfactory tip, and
conversely, if you have enjoyed your service, reward accordingly. They
could have put you next to the toilets.
--

- Billy
"For the first time in the history of the world, every human being
is now subjected to contact with dangerous chemicals, from the
moment of conception until death." - Rachel Carson

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI29wVQN8Go

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072040.html