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Old 05-07-2009, 03:05 PM posted to rec.gardens
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Default Ant infestation of Gardenia - how to get rid of them

All,

Just found this group - what a stroke of luck.

Have a nice sized gardenia in a pot - last week or so most all leaves yellowed and started
falling off.

This after a light application of sulphur and fertilizer.

When collecting the fallen leaves for disposal - observed the soil was heavily infested
with ants.

Called in to the local garden talk show and was advised to use Spinosad - had heard of
this before however never used the product.

In researching the net - find this is an ingredient, rather than a named product one can
purchase.

Recommended application method for ants is a drench - so need a water soluble form.

Has anyone used a Spinosad product on gardenias with success?

Any recommendations for a brand name product are greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

Regards,

Doug

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Old 05-07-2009, 05:08 PM posted to rec.gardens
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Default Ant infestation of Gardenia - how to get rid of them

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 09:05:10 -0500, "Douglas R. Hortvet, Jr."
wrote:


Has anyone used a Spinosad product on gardenias with success?



Do you have issues with personal pronouns and paragraphs?


I have used Monterey Garden Insect Spray with success against spit!
thrips and tomato hornworms. It's a concentrate that is made to be
diluted in water.
http://www.montereylawngarden.com/pd..._bilingual.pdf

However, why do you think the ants are causing the problem with your
gardenia? Unless they're herding aphids, I don't see how the ants
would hurt the plant. Are the ants fire ants, is that why you want to
get rid of them? Is there damage on the leaves that looks like insect
damage?

And what kind of fertilizer did you use? If the leaf yellowing
happened right after you fertilized, have you considered that the
fertilizer is the issue? Have you checked your soil pH? How much
water has the gardenia been getting?



Penelope




--
"Maybe you'd like to ask the Wizard for a heart."
"ElissaAnn"
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Old 05-07-2009, 05:16 PM posted to rec.gardens
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Default Ant infestation of Gardenia - how to get rid of them

Thanks for the reply.

Issues with 'personal pronouns and paragraphs' - what does that mean?

'Issues' is such an overused and non-specifc term to be essentially meaningless, IMO.

When I called the local gardening guru's radio program - he acknowledge that ants can
devastate a plants root system. Figure he knows more than I about such things.

There is another gardenia in a pot not 5' away and has no problem at all - both are
watered the same, and received the same fertilizer and sulphur treatment.

The one with the problem had evidence of a blackness on the leaves - black sooty mold -
that was removed with strong water spray.

Is it your experience that ants cannot damage a plants root system?

Want to do what is necessary to ensure the plant does not die - the blooms have been large
and very pleasantly fragrant.

Thanks again.

Regards,

Doug


Penelope wrote:

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 09:05:10 -0500, "Douglas R. Hortvet, Jr."
wrote:


Has anyone used a Spinosad product on gardenias with success?



Do you have issues with personal pronouns and paragraphs?


I have used Monterey Garden Insect Spray with success against spit!
thrips and tomato hornworms. It's a concentrate that is made to be
diluted in water.
http://www.montereylawngarden.com/pd..._bilingual.pdf

However, why do you think the ants are causing the problem with your
gardenia? Unless they're herding aphids, I don't see how the ants
would hurt the plant. Are the ants fire ants, is that why you want to
get rid of them? Is there damage on the leaves that looks like insect
damage?

And what kind of fertilizer did you use? If the leaf yellowing
happened right after you fertilized, have you considered that the
fertilizer is the issue? Have you checked your soil pH? How much
water has the gardenia been getting?



Penelope




--
"Maybe you'd like to ask the Wizard for a heart."
"ElissaAnn"


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Old 05-07-2009, 06:10 PM posted to rec.gardens
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Default Ant infestation of Gardenia - how to get rid of them

On 7/5/2009 7:05 AM, Douglas R. Hortvet, Jr. wrote:
All,

Just found this group - what a stroke of luck.

Have a nice sized gardenia in a pot - last week or so most all leaves yellowed and started
falling off.

This after a light application of sulphur and fertilizer.

When collecting the fallen leaves for disposal - observed the soil was heavily infested
with ants.

Called in to the local garden talk show and was advised to use Spinosad - had heard of
this before however never used the product.

In researching the net - find this is an ingredient, rather than a named product one can
purchase.

Recommended application method for ants is a drench - so need a water soluble form.

Has anyone used a Spinosad product on gardenias with success?

Any recommendations for a brand name product are greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

Regards,

Doug


For ants nesting in a flower pot, I use a drench of malathion. You can
even mix it to 1/2 the strength recommended for aphids.

Yellowing of a gardenia can have several causes:

Feeding the plant when the soil is dry will result in burned roots when
you next water it. The leaves will yellow, curl, and die.

Gardenias need perfect drainage. If the pot has no drain hole, the
plant is drowning. Even if there is a drain hole, you could be
over-watering. Gardenias need soil that is constantly moist but not
soil that is soggy. If the soil is too wet, the plant yellows.

Gardenias need more than merely acid soil. They need some extra iron, a
lack of which can cause yellowing. For iron, buy iron sulfate. Until
the plant recovers a healthy green, however, use this sparingly (about 1
Tbs in a large pot once a month).

Gardenias also need more zinc than most plants (except for citrus).
Instead of yellowing, a lack of zinc will more likely result in flower
buds dropping without blooming. However, a severe lack zinc can cause
yellow blotches on the leaves. Zinc sulfate seems hard to find these
days, but some Ace Hardware stores carry it or can order it. Buy the
smallest package you can get; it will last for years. A large pinch of
zinc sulfate should be added to the pot monthly.

Adding sulfur (as you did) is good. However, you also need some soil
bacteria to convert the sulfur slowly into sulfuric acid. A light
topping of active compost will provide the necessary organisms.

--
David E. Ross
Climate: California Mediterranean
Sunset Zone: 21 -- interior Santa Monica Mountains with some ocean
influence (USDA 10a, very close to Sunset Zone 19)
Gardening diary at http://www.rossde.com/garden/diary
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Old 05-07-2009, 06:58 PM posted to rec.gardens
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Default Ant infestation of Gardenia - how to get rid of them

In article ,
Penelope wrote:

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 09:05:10 -0500, "Douglas R. Hortvet, Jr."
wrote:


Has anyone used a Spinosad product on gardenias with success?



Do you have issues with personal pronouns and paragraphs?


I have used Monterey Garden Insect Spray with success against spit!
thrips and tomato hornworms. It's a concentrate that is made to be
diluted in water.
http://www.montereylawngarden.com/pd...ay_omri_04_bil
ingual.pdf

PRECAUTIONARY STATEMENTS
ENVIRONMENTAL HAZARDS
This product is toxic to bees exposed to treatment for 3 hours following
treatment. Do not apply this pesticide to blooming, pollen-shedding or
nectar-producing parts of plants if bees may forage on the plants during
this time period. This product is toxic to aquatic invertebrates

However, why do you think the ants are causing the problem with your
gardenia? Unless they're herding aphids, I don't see how the ants
would hurt the plant. Are the ants fire ants, is that why you want to
get rid of them? Is there damage on the leaves that looks like insect
damage?

And what kind of fertilizer did you use? If the leaf yellowing
happened right after you fertilized, have you considered that the
fertilizer is the issue? Have you checked your soil pH? How much
water has the gardenia been getting?



Penelope

http://www.afpmb.org/pubs/standardli...-6583_msds.pdf
ECOTOXICOLOGY:
Based largely or completely on information for spinosad:
Material is highly toxic to aquatic invertebrates on an
acute basis (LC50 or EC50 is between 0.1 and 1 mg/L).
Material is moderately toxic to fish on an acute basis
(LC50 is between 1 and 10 mg/L).
snip

Acute contact LD50 in honeybee (apis mellifera) is
---- 0.05 micrograms = 0.00005 g/bee.----
Translation: incredibly toxic to bees

How about repotting after hosing-off the roots?
--

- Billy

There are three kinds of men: The ones that learn by reading. The few who
learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence and
find out for themselves.
Will Rogers

http://countercurrents.org/roberts020709.htm
http://www.tomdispatch.com/p/zinn


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Old 05-07-2009, 07:18 PM posted to rec.gardens
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Default Ant infestation of Gardenia - how to get rid of them

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 11:16:32 -0500, "Douglas R. Hortvet, Jr."
wrote:

Thanks for the reply.

Issues with 'personal pronouns and paragraphs' - what does that mean?


It means you get an 'F' in English. We all make mistakes, I'm the
Queen of the Run On sentence; but you make no effort to communicate
pleasantly and effectively. Your writing makes you sound like a
petulant 2 year old.

'Issues' is such an overused and non-specifc term to be essentially meaningless, IMO.


And if you claim that's true, you can avoid any and all of your
issues. Got it. It would appear you approach problem solving in your
garden the same way.


When I called the local gardening guru's radio program - he acknowledge that ants can
devastate a plants root system. Figure he knows more than I about such things.


He acknowledged, as in, it wasn't his idea? As in, you had already
decided that the ants were the problem, and pushed that idea? What
else did he suggest might be the problem?


There is another gardenia in a pot not 5' away and has no problem at all - both are
watered the same, and received the same fertilizer and sulphur treatment.


Were you planning on telling us what fertilizer you used or what form
of sulphur?

The one with the problem had evidence of a blackness on the leaves - black sooty mold -
that was removed with strong water spray.


And it never occurred to you that the mold was the key to what was
wrong with your gardenia? Stop focusing on ants destroying the roots
and consider the ant/aphid connection I suggested in my last post. If
you have ants and sooty mold, you most likely have aphids. If there
are no aphids, there is some kind of insect that produces honeydew
feeding on your gardenia. I lean towards aphids being the problem,
though, because I so often see ants herding and protecting aphids on
plants around here.


Is it your experience that ants cannot damage a plants root system?


It is my experience that ants do not damage roots. And lord knows
I've had tons of ants through here. When I moved into this house fire
ants were a terrible problem. Now there is a mega colony of Argentine
ants in this area, so I've had to learn to live with ants. I try and
be positive. The positive thing is that they wipe out fire ants and
take out a lot of termites. See?


Want to do what is necessary to ensure the plant does not die - the blooms have been large
and very pleasantly fragrant.



A simple soap spray will kill aphids, or you can try Neem. Neem should
also make the ants very unhappy, although it probably would not kill
the whole mound.


Penelope


--
"Maybe you'd like to ask the Wizard for a heart."
"ElissaAnn"
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Old 05-07-2009, 07:27 PM posted to rec.gardens
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Default Ant infestation of Gardenia - how to get rid of them

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 14:18:11 -0400, against all advice, something
compelled Penelope , to say:

I lean towards aphids being the problem,
though, because I so often see ants herding and protecting aphids on
plants around here.




Ants, the Boarder Collie of the insect world.





--

Don't worry about people stealing an idea. If it's original, you will
have to ram it down their throats.
- Howard Aiken
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Old 05-07-2009, 08:01 PM posted to rec.gardens
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Default Ant infestation of Gardenia - how to get rid of them

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 11:27:50 -0700, Steve Daniels
wrote:

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 14:18:11 -0400, against all advice, something
compelled Penelope , to say:

I lean towards aphids being the problem,
though, because I so often see ants herding and protecting aphids on
plants around here.




Ants, the Boarder Collie of the insect world.



Ha! Yeah, that's about right.


Penelope



--
"Maybe you'd like to ask the Wizard for a heart."
"ElissaAnn"
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Old 05-07-2009, 09:06 PM posted to rec.gardens
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Default Ant infestation of Gardenia - how to get rid of them

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 10:58:41 -0700, Billy
wrote:

spinosad
Translation: incredibly toxic to bees


Yes, what was I thinking! Best to use the malathion suggested by
another poster.



Penelope


--
"Maybe you'd like to ask the Wizard for a heart."
"ElissaAnn"
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Old 05-07-2009, 09:07 PM posted to rec.gardens
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Default Ant infestation of Gardenia - how to get rid of them

In article ,
"David E. Ross" wrote:

For ants nesting in a flower pot, I use a drench of malathion. You can
even mix it to 1/2 the strength recommended for aphids.


Sure, why try to change cultural practices when you can spend money and
poison the world.
http://www.pesticideinfo.org/Detail_...32924#Toxicity
--

- Billy

There are three kinds of men: The ones that learn by reading. The few who
learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence and
find out for themselves.
Will Rogers

http://countercurrents.org/roberts020709.htm
http://www.tomdispatch.com/p/zinn


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Old 05-07-2009, 09:09 PM posted to rec.gardens
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Default Ant infestation of Gardenia - how to get rid of them

In article ,
Penelope wrote:


Thanks for the reply.

Issues with 'personal pronouns and paragraphs' - what does that mean?


It means you get an 'F' in English. We all make mistakes, I'm the
Queen of the Run On sentence; but you make no effort to communicate
pleasantly and effectively. Your writing makes you sound like a
petulant 2 year old.


Note to self: In the future, wear a cup-jock when posting questions ;O)
--

- Billy

There are three kinds of men: The ones that learn by reading. The few who
learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence and
find out for themselves.
Will Rogers

http://countercurrents.org/roberts020709.htm
http://www.tomdispatch.com/p/zinn
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Old 05-07-2009, 10:27 PM posted to rec.gardens
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Default Ant infestation of Gardenia - how to get rid of them

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 09:05:10 -0500, "Douglas R. Hortvet, Jr."
wrote:

All,

Just found this group - what a stroke of luck.

Have a nice sized gardenia in a pot - last week or so most all leaves yellowed and started
falling off.

This after a light application of sulphur and fertilizer.

When collecting the fallen leaves for disposal - observed the soil was heavily infested
with ants.

Called in to the local garden talk show and was advised to use Spinosad - had heard of
this before however never used the product.

In researching the net - find this is an ingredient, rather than a named product one can
purchase.

Recommended application method for ants is a drench - so need a water soluble form.

Has anyone used a Spinosad product on gardenias with success?

Any recommendations for a brand name product are greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

Regards,

Doug



The ants may be a sign or result of another issue. Ants are not
particularly harmful to Gardenias, but I'd put some Tero (or a Tero
trap) near the pot. I found Tero to be very effective at killing out
a colony because they feed the queen, plus you don't have insecticides
to deal with. Ants dislike powdered chalk, cinnamon, and mint.
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Old 05-07-2009, 11:36 PM posted to rec.gardens
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Default Ant infestation of Gardenia - how to get rid of them

On 7/5/2009 2:27 PM, Phisherman wrote:
On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 09:05:10 -0500, "Douglas R. Hortvet, Jr."
wrote:

All,

Just found this group - what a stroke of luck.

Have a nice sized gardenia in a pot - last week or so most all leaves yellowed and started
falling off.

This after a light application of sulphur and fertilizer.

When collecting the fallen leaves for disposal - observed the soil was heavily infested
with ants.

Called in to the local garden talk show and was advised to use Spinosad - had heard of
this before however never used the product.

In researching the net - find this is an ingredient, rather than a named product one can
purchase.

Recommended application method for ants is a drench - so need a water soluble form.

Has anyone used a Spinosad product on gardenias with success?

Any recommendations for a brand name product are greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

Regards,

Doug



The ants may be a sign or result of another issue. Ants are not
particularly harmful to Gardenias, but I'd put some Tero (or a Tero
trap) near the pot. I found Tero to be very effective at killing out
a colony because they feed the queen, plus you don't have insecticides
to deal with. Ants dislike powdered chalk, cinnamon, and mint.


They can't dislike mint very much. I have a 12" pot of peppermint in my
garden, sitting on a path that separates my lawn from my beds. It seems
that I have to eradicate an ant nest from the pot almost every year. I
have a similar problem with adjacent pots of oregano and tarragon. On
the other hand, the ants don't seem to bother the sage, thyme, or bay,
all of which are also in pots.

Ants themselves rarely harm plants. However, they protect aphids,
scale, and a few other sucking insects. These are insects that suck the
sap from a plant and then excrete a sugary syrup, on which the ant feed.
The sucking insects can indeed damage a plant severely.

--
David E. Ross
Climate: California Mediterranean
Sunset Zone: 21 -- interior Santa Monica Mountains with some ocean
influence (USDA 10a, very close to Sunset Zone 19)
Gardening diary at http://www.rossde.com/garden/diary
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Old 05-07-2009, 11:56 PM posted to rec.gardens
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Default Ant infestation of Gardenia - how to get rid of them

In article ,
Penelope wrote:

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 10:58:41 -0700, Billy
wrote:

spinosad
Translation: incredibly toxic to bees


Yes, what was I thinking! Best to use the malathion suggested by
another poster.

"Maybe you'd like to ask the Wizard for a brain."
As YOU pointed out, there is no proof that the ants are causing the
problem. The damn plant is in a pot. Pull it out, hose off the dirt and
ants, and repot. You will (1) get a look at the roots to see if they are
damaged, (2) have gotten rid of the ants, and will be able to determine
if they were the problem, (3) not have gratuitously dumped more poison
into the biosphere, (4) not enriched an environmentally toxic company.

What part of "nerve gas" don't you understand?
http://www.pesticideinfo.org/Detail_...32924#Toxicity


Penelope


--
"Maybe you'd like to ask the Wizard for a heart."
"ElissaAnn"

--

- Billy

There are three kinds of men: The ones that learn by reading. The few who
learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence and
find out for themselves.
Will Rogers

http://countercurrents.org/roberts020709.htm
http://www.tomdispatch.com/p/zinn
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Old 06-07-2009, 02:33 AM posted to rec.gardens
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Default Ant infestation of Gardenia - how to get rid of them

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 13:09:07 -0700, Billy
wrote:

In article ,



Note to self: In the future, wear a cup-jock when posting questions ;O)



This from a man who goes into an arm waving, spittle-flecked and
pharisaic spasm every time someone doesn't meet his screwball
gardening standards.

Honestly Dude, shiny side out!



Penelope


--
"Maybe you'd like to ask the Wizard for a heart."
"ElissaAnn"


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