[tigersprout]

Hi, I'm new to the forum and am perhaps being a little lazy really by not searching for previous posts to help with my problem.
I thought that by asking afresh as it were it might kick start my experience.
I have moved into a house in the midlands and the back garden hasn't been touched in 25 years apart from being strimmed.
Upon clearing the rubbish, I found a 4" carpet of squitch/horse hair I think it is and upon closer inspection, the roots run through out the top soil.
I have usually dug strands out before but the expanse of root system has to be seen to be believed. The garden is overrun. I could get the top soil removed but this in itself and the replacement would be expensive. A systemic weed killer perhaps?? But I hesitate as I wanted to grow on the soil this year. Help anyone?

[David Hare-Scott[_2_]]

tigersprout wrote:
Hi, I'm new to the forum and am perhaps being a little lazy really by
not searching for previous posts to help with my problem.
I thought that by asking afresh as it were it might kick start my
experience.
I have moved into a house in the midlands and the back garden hasn't
been touched in 25 years apart from being strimmed.
Upon clearing the rubbish, I found a 4" carpet of squitch/horse hair I
think it is and upon closer inspection, the roots run through out the
top soil.
I have usually dug strands out before but the expanse of root system
has to be seen to be believed.

You need to find out what plant's root system you are looking at before you
kill it. It may be something you want.

The garden is overrun. I could get the
top soil removed but this in itself and the replacement would be
expensive. A systemic weed killer perhaps?? But I hesitate as I
wanted to grow on the soil this year. Help anyone?

I cannot offer any specific advice as you give no information about what the
undesirable plants might be, where you are, what the climate is or what you
want to grow. Before you kill anything you need a plan of what is going to
happen in that area. Leaving bare earth will just encourage more and
different weeds. You need to work section by section and convert it into
garden beds, ground cover, mulch under trees, lawn or whatever. Without
such a plan even if you did replace the topsoil you could be back to where
you are in a few years.

David

[Billy[_10_]]

In article ,
"David Hare-Scott" wrote:

tigersprout wrote:
Hi, I'm new to the forum and am perhaps being a little lazy really by
not searching for previous posts to help with my problem.
I thought that by asking afresh as it were it might kick start my
experience.
I have moved into a house in the midlands and the back garden hasn't
been touched in 25 years apart from being strimmed.
Upon clearing the rubbish, I found a 4" carpet of squitch/horse hair I
think it is and upon closer inspection, the roots run through out the
top soil.
I have usually dug strands out before but the expanse of root system
has to be seen to be believed.

You need to find out what plant's root system you are looking at before you
kill it. It may be something you want.

The garden is overrun. I could get the
top soil removed but this in itself and the replacement would be
expensive. A systemic weed killer perhaps?? But I hesitate as I
wanted to grow on the soil this year. Help anyone?

I cannot offer any specific advice as you give no information about what the
undesirable plants might be, where you are, what the climate is or what you
want to grow. Before you kill anything you need a plan of what is going to
happen in that area. Leaving bare earth will just encourage more and
different weeds. You need to work section by section and convert it into
garden beds, ground cover, mulch under trees, lawn or whatever. Without
such a plan even if you did replace the topsoil you could be back to where
you are in a few years.

David

No idea what plant you're trying to get rid of but an inexpensive and
environmentally friendly approach would be to solarize.
http://extension.oregonstate.edu/new...storyType=gard
en
http://www.gardenguides.com/834-soil...trol-garden-pe
st-tip.html
http://www.thisland.illinois.edu/57ways/57ways_15.html

or if it isn't terribly aggressive, lasagna gardening can accomplish the
same thing, only cheaper.

http://www.thriftyfun.com/tf582744.tip.html
http://organicgardening.about.com/od...en/a/lasagnaga
rden.htm
http://www.motherearthnews.com/Organ...1/Lasagna-Gard
ening.aspx
--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn/HZinn_page.html

[[email protected]]

tigersprout writes:

Hi, I'm new to the forum and am perhaps being a little lazy really by
not searching for previous posts to help with my problem.
I thought that by asking afresh as it were it might kick start my
experience.
I have moved into a house in the midlands and the back garden hasn't
been touched in 25 years apart from being strimmed.
Upon clearing the rubbish, I found a 4" carpet of squitch/horse hair I
think it is and upon closer inspection, the roots run through out the
top soil.
I have usually dug strands out before but the expanse of root system has
to be seen to be believed. The garden is overrun. I could get the top
soil removed but this in itself and the replacement would be expensive.
A systemic weed killer perhaps?? But I hesitate as I wanted to grow on
the soil this year. Help anyone?

Not a very good description.

What's a squitch? The urban dictionary has 3 entries but they don't
seem to apply.

The only root system I've ever seen that looked like horse hair was
Weeping Willow. That will form huge mats if the soil is waterlogged.

Regular weeds you can kill with Round Up and plant right after the
plants die.

[tigersprout]

Originally Posted by

tigersprout writes:

Hi, I'm new to the forum and am perhaps being a little lazy really by
not searching for previous posts to help with my problem.
I thought that by asking afresh as it were it might kick start my
experience.
I have moved into a house in the midlands and the back garden hasn't
been touched in 25 years apart from being strimmed.
Upon clearing the rubbish, I found a 4" carpet of squitch/horse hair I
think it is and upon closer inspection, the roots run through out the
top soil.
I have usually dug strands out before but the expanse of root system has
to be seen to be believed. The garden is overrun. I could get the top
soil removed but this in itself and the replacement would be expensive.
A systemic weed killer perhaps?? But I hesitate as I wanted to grow on
the soil this year. Help anyone?

Not a very good description.

What's a squitch? The urban dictionary has 3 entries but they don't
seem to apply.

The only root system I've ever seen that looked like horse hair was
Weeping Willow. That will form huge mats if the soil is waterlogged.

Regular weeds you can kill with Round Up and plant right after the
plants die.

Hi to those kind enough to respond to my query, it seams I was a little unclear in the description of the weed in question. Please see the link:
http://www.mondofacto.com/facts/dictionary?grass
It seems another name for the offending article is "Couch Grass". My intention is to cultivate the area. I had intended raised beds and a glass house.
Thanks
Dave

[Hortivation]

Originally Posted by tigersprout

Hi to those kind enough to respond to my query, it seams I was a little unclear in the description of the weed in question. Please see the link:
http://www.mondofacto.com/facts/dictionary?grass
It seems another name for the offending article is "Couch Grass". My intention is to cultivate the area. I had intended raised beds and a glass house.
Thanks
Dave

The best way i've found to deal with couch grass is a two pronged approch, firstly spraying with a glyphosate based weedkiller, see back of pack for active ingredient, but buying it marketed as glyphosate rather than roundup/weedeol and the like would be much cheaper. Glyphosate breaks down on contact with soil, so wont harm the soil. After about three weeks, all the top growth will be well and truly dead, and the roots should also have been largely killed off, i then turn the soil and remove and roots I can see. After fertilising and planting, its just general spot weeding. If you intend to grow in raised beds, depending on the depth of the beds, you'd get away with laying a woven landscape fabric eg: phormisol over the couch grass after applying glyphosate then building raised beds on top, this would deter any regrowth.

[Billy[_10_]]

In article ,
Hortivation wrote:

tigersprout;880508 Wrote:
Hi to those kind enough to respond to my query, it seams I was a little
unclear in the description of the weed in question. Please see the
link:
http://tinyurl.com/ye8s7hw
It seems another name for the offending article is "Couch Grass". My
intention is to cultivate the area. I had intended raised beds and a
glass house.
Thanks
Dave

The best way i've found to deal with couch grass is a two pronged
approch, firstly spraying with a glyphosate based weedkiller, see back
of pack for active ingredient, but buying it marketed as glyphosate
rather than roundup/weedeol and the like would be much cheaper.
Glyphosate breaks down on contact with soil, so wont harm the soil.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roundup...concerns_and_c
ontroversy

Health, ecological concerns and controversy
Roundup commercial formulations were never submitted to test by the
United States Environmental Protection Agency? (EPA), its main active
ingredient, glyphosate, received EPA Toxicity Class of III for oral and
inhalation exposure.[3]
Beyond the glyphosate salts content, commercial formulations of Roundup
contain surfactants, which vary in nature and concentration. As a
result, human poisoning with this herbicide is not with the main active
ingredient alone but with complex and variable mixtures. [4]

[edit]
Human and mammalian toxicity
About Roundup formulations, a 2000 review of the available literature
published in a Monsanto sponsored journal,[5] conducted by Ian C. Munro
a member of the Cantox scientific and regulatory consulting firm, which
role is defined as "protect client interests while helping our clients
achieve milestones and bring products to market"[6] concluded that
"under present and expected conditions of new use, there is no potential
for Roundup herbicide to pose a health risk to humans".[7] This review
is extensively cited by Monsanto.
On the other hand, a same year review of the toxicological data on
Roundup shows that there are at least 58 studies of the effects of
Roundup itself on a range of organisms.[8] This review concluded that
"for terrestrial uses of Roundup minimal acute and chronic risk was
predicted for potentially exposed nontarget organisms". It also
concluded that there were some risks to aquatic organisms exposed to
Roundup in shallow water. In later mammalian research, Roundup has been
found to interfere with an enzyme involved testosterone production in
mouse cell culture[9] and to interfere with an estrogen biosynthesis
enzyme in cultures of Human Placental cells.[10]
A 2008 scientific study has shown that Roundup formulations and
metabolic products cause the death of human embryonic, placental, and
umbilical cells in vitro even at low concentrations. The effects were
not proportional to the main active ingredient concentrations
(glyphosate) but dependent on the nature of the adjuvants used in the
Roundup formulation.[11]
Opponents of Roundup claim that it has been found to cause genetic
damage, citing Peluso et al.[12] The authors concluded that the damage
was "not related to the active ingredient, but to another component of
the herbicide mixture".
There is a reasonable correlation between the amount of Roundup ingested
and the likelihood of serious systemic sequelae or death. Ingestion of
85 mL of the concentrated formulation is likely to cause significant
toxicity in adults. Gastrointestinal corrosive effects, with mouth,
throat and epigastric pain and dysphagia are common. Renal and hepatic
impairment are also frequent and usually reflect reduced organ
perfusion. Respiratory distress, impaired consciousness, pulmonary
oedema, infiltration on chest x-ray, shock, arrythmias, renal failure
requiring haemodialysis, metabolic acidosis and hyperkalaemia may
supervene in severe cases. Bradycardia and ventricular arrhythmias are
often present pre-terminally. Dermal exposure to ready-to-use glyphosate
formulations can cause irritation and photo-contact dermatitis has been
reported occasionally; these effects are probably due to the
preservative Proxel (benzisothiazolin-3-one). Severe skin burns are very
rare. Inhalation is a minor route of exposure but spray mist may cause
oral or nasal discomfort, an unpleasant taste in the mouth, tingling and
throat irritation. Eye exposure may lead to mild conjunctivitis, and
superficial corneal injury is possible if irrigation is delayed or
inadequate. [4]

[edit]
False advertising
In 1996 Monsanto was accused of false and misleading advertising of
glyphosate products, prompting a law suit by the New York State attorney
general.[13]
On Fri Jan 20, 2007, Monsanto was convicted of false advertising of
Roundup for presenting Roundup as biodegradable and claiming that it
left the soil clean after use. Environmental and consumer rights
campaigners brought the case in 2001 on the basis that glyphosate,
Roundup's main ingredient, is classed as "dangerous for the environment"
and "toxic for aquatic organisms" by the European Union. Monsanto France
planned to appeal the verdict at the time. [14]

[edit]
Scientific fraud
On two occasions the United States Environmental Protection Agency has
caught scientists deliberately falsifying test results at research
laboratories hired by Monsanto to study glyphosate.[15][16][17] In the
first incident involving Industrial Biotest Laboratories, an EPA
reviewer stated after finding "routine falsification of data" that it
was "hard to believe the scientific integrity of the studies when they
said they took specimens of the uterus from male rabbits".[18][19][20]
In the second incident of falsifying test results in 1991, the owner of
the lab (Craven Labs), and three employees were indicted on 20 felony
counts, the owner was sentenced to 5 years in prison and fined 50,000
dollars, the lab was fined 15.5 million dollars and ordered to pay 3.7
million in restitution.[21][22][23] Craven laboratories performed
studies for 262 pesticide companies including Monsanto.
Monsanto has stated that the studies have been repeated and that
Roundup's EPA certification does not now use any studies from Craven
Labs or IBT. Monsanto also claims that the Craven Labs investigation was
started by the EPA after a pesticide industry task force discovered
irregularities.[24]

[edit]
Aquatic effects
Fish and aquatic invertebrates are more sensitive to Roundup than
terrestrial organisms.[8] Glyphosate is generally less persistent in
water than in soil, with 12 to 60 day persistence observed in Canadian
pond water, yet persistence of over a year have been observed in the
sediments of ponds in Michigan and Oregon.[3]
The EU classifies Roundup as R51/53 Toxic to aquatic organisms, may
cause long-term adverse effects in the aquatic environment.[25]
Although Roundup is not registered for aquatic uses[26] and studies of
its effects on amphibians indicate it is toxic to them,[27] scientists
have found that it may wind up in small wetlands where tadpoles live due
to inadvertent spraying during its application. A recent study found
that even at concentrations one-third of the maximum concentrations
expected in nature, Roundup still killed up to 71 percent of tadpoles
raised in outdoor tanks.[28]

[edit]
Environmental degradation and effects
When glyphosate comes into contact with the soil it can be rapidly bound
to soil particles and be inactivated.[3] Unbound glyphosate can be
degraded by bacteria.[29] Glyphosphate has been shown to increase the
infection rate of wheat by fusarium head blight in fields that have been
treated with glyphosphate. [30]
In soils, half lives vary from as little as 3 days at a site in Texas,
141 days at a site in Iowa, to between 1*3 years in Swedish forest
soils.[23] It appears that higher latitude sites have the longest soil
persistences such as in Canada and Scandinavia.
A recent study concluded that certain amphibians may be at risk from
glyphosate use.[31] One study has shown an effect on growth and survival
of earthworms.[32] The results of this study are in conflict with other
data and have been criticized on methodological grounds.[8] In other
studies nitrogen fixing bacteria have been impaired, and also crop plant
susceptibility to disease has been increased.[30][33][34][35][36][37]
[38]

[edit]
Endocrine disruptor debate
An in-vitro study[39] has suggested glyphosate may have an effect on
progesterone production in mammalian cells and affect mortality of
placental cells in-vitro.[10] Whether these studies classify glyphosate
as an endocrine disruptor is a matter of debate.
Some believe that in-vitro studies are insufficient, and are waiting to
see if animal studies show a change in endocrine activity, since a
change in a single cell line may not occur in an entire
organism.[citation needed] Additionally, current in-vitro studies expose
cell lines to concentrations orders of magnitude greater than would be
found in real conditions, and through pathways that would not be
experienced in real organism.[citation needed]
Others believe that in-vitro studies, particularly ones identifying not
only an effect, but a chemical pathway, are sufficient evidence to
classify Roundup as an endocrine disruptor, on the basis that even small
changes in endocrine activity can have lasting effects on an entire
organism that may be difficult to detect through whole organism studies
alone.[citation needed]

[edit]
Glyphosate resistance in weeds and microorganisms
The first documented cases of weed resistance to glyphosate were found
in Australia, involving rigid ryegrass near Orange, New South Wales.[40]
Some farmers in the United States have expressed concern that weeds are
now developing with glyphosate resistance, with 13 states now reporting
resistance, and this poses a problem to many farmers, including cotton
farmers, that are now heavily dependent on glyphosate to control
weeds.[41][42] Farmers associations are now reporting 103 biotypes of
weeds within 63 weed species with herbicide resistance[41][42]. This
problem is likely to be exacerbated by the use of roundup-ready crops
[43].
Some microorganisms have a version of
5-enolpyruvoyl-shikimate-3-phosphate synthetase (EPSPS) that is
resistant to glyphosate inhibition. The version used in genetically
modified crops was isolated from Agrobacterium strain CP4 (CP4 EPSPS)
that was resistant to glyphosate.[44][45] The CP4 EPSPS gene was cloned
and inserted into soybeans. The CP4 EPSPS gene was engineered for plant
expression by fusing the 5' end of the gene to a chloroplast transit
peptide derived from the petunia EPSPS. This transit peptide was used
because it had shown previously an ability to deliver bacterial EPSPS to
the chloroplasts of other plants. The plasmid used to move the gene into
soybeans was PV-GMGTO4. It contained three bacterial genes, two PC4
EPSPS genes, and a gene encoding beta-glucuronidase (GUS) from
Escherichia coli as a marker. The DNA was injected into the soybeans
using the particle acceleration method. Soybean cultivar A54O3 was used
for the transformation. The expression of the GUS gene was used as the
initial evidence of transformation. GUS expression was detected by a
staining method in which the GUS enzyme converts a substrate into a blue
precipitate. Those plants that showed GUS expression were then taken and
sprayed with glyphosate and their tolerance was tested over many
generations.

Superweeds
Roundup overuse resulted in the development of "Superweeds" which are
resistant to the herbicide.[69][70]
-----

Then there is the inexpensive, eco-friendly approach, that I have
already posted.

After about three weeks, all the top growth will be well and truly dead,
and the roots should also have been largely killed off, i then turn the
soil and remove and roots I can see. After fertilising and planting,
its just general spot weeding. If you intend to grow in raised beds,
depending on the depth of the beds, you'd get away with laying a woven
landscape fabric eg: phormisol over the couch grass after applying
glyphosate then building raised beds on top, this would deter any
regrowth.
--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn/HZinn_page.html

[tigersprout]

Thanks all for your help, will try your suggestions. When work quietens down that is. Billy 10, your'e comprehensive to say the least. Thanks once again. I will post a reply on the results when I can
Dave