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In article ,
brooklyn1 wrote: http://www.finegardening.com/plants/...den-myths.aspx I'm sure any garden can find things to take exception to in this article. Mostly the article makes errors of omission. For example Myth: Organic pesticides are less toxic than synthetic ones I can't think of any organic pesticide that is as toxic as Sevin, but the whole point of organic gardening is to avoid pesticides in the first place, and that is done using Integrated Pest Management (IPM). Spraying Milk Spore in the Fall is better than waiting until the following summer and being tempted to use Sevin on Japanese beetles. Ladybugs will help you control aphids with no sprays at all. Identify your problem first, before treating it. Myth: Add sand to loosen heavy, clay soil If all you were going to do was add sand, the statement above would be true, but garden soil is ideally, 30 - 40% silt, 30 - 40% sand, and 20 - 30% clay. This soil then needs 5 - 10% organic material. I'm working what was originally heavy clay soil. I have added some sand (maybe 10% of the top 12 inches) but by and large, I have found that feeding the soil encourages the earthworms, and if you have earthworms, you have garden soil. -- - Billy "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini. http://www.democracynow.org/2010/7/2/maude http://english.aljazeera.net/video/m...515308172.html |
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In article ,
brooklyn1 wrote: http://www.finegardening.com/plants/...den-myths.aspx "Myth: Organic pesticides are less toxic than synthetic ones Truth: Misused pesticides can be harmful, regardless of whether they are considered natural or synthetic. Pyrethrum, for example, is made from chrysanthemums but is still toxic to people and pets when handled improperly. Whenever possible, it's best to select the least toxic control option available because, even if not lethal, many of these pesticides can cause serious health complications. Safe storage of these products can help prevent any harmful accidents. Read and follow all label directions, and remember that these products are tools, not miracle workers or silver bullets. Pesticides cannot correct mistakes made in plant selection, installation, or maintenance." .............................. Being Picky I've found pyrethrum to be an excellent insecticide. That said I've noticed that Pyrethrum is usually dissolved in xylene and combined with rotenone. 1) Xylene is a human carcinogen. 2) Rotenone has a ongoing study for human effects like Parkinson's disease. But just pyrethrum http://www.greenislanddistributors.c...600Xclude_MSDS Says slight #1 on all counts I use it in my house sparingly along with Oil of pennyroyal used as a deterrent. Aside how are you new trees faring? -- Bill S. Jersey USA zone 5 shade garden What use one more wake up call? globalvoicesonline.org http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlfKdbWwruY |
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On 8/2/2010 2:35 PM, Billy wrote:
In , wrote: http://www.finegardening.com/plants/...den-myths.aspx I'm sure any garden can find things to take exception to in this article. Mostly the article makes errors of omission. For example Myth: Organic pesticides are less toxic than synthetic ones I can't think of any organic pesticide that is as toxic as Sevin, but the whole point of organic gardening is to avoid pesticides in the first place, and that is done using Integrated Pest Management (IPM). Spraying Milk Spore in the Fall is better than waiting until the following summer and being tempted to use Sevin on Japanese beetles. Ladybugs will help you control aphids with no sprays at all. Identify your problem first, before treating it. Excellent lecture years ago by Bruce Ames. He pointed out that major defense mechanism of plants are toxins. I know you are afraid of man made chemicals but it's hard to beat toxicity of those in nature ;) |
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In article ,
Frank wrote: On 8/2/2010 2:35 PM, Billy wrote: In , wrote: http://www.finegardening.com/plants/...den-myths.aspx I'm sure any garden can find things to take exception to in this article. Mostly the article makes errors of omission. For example Myth: Organic pesticides are less toxic than synthetic ones I can't think of any organic pesticide that is as toxic as Sevin, but the whole point of organic gardening is to avoid pesticides in the first place, and that is done using Integrated Pest Management (IPM). Spraying Milk Spore in the Fall is better than waiting until the following summer and being tempted to use Sevin on Japanese beetles. Ladybugs will help you control aphids with no sprays at all. Identify your problem first, before treating it. Excellent lecture years ago by Bruce Ames. He pointed out that major defense mechanism of plants are toxins. I know you are afraid of man made chemicals but it's hard to beat toxicity of those in nature ;) This is true as pointed out here http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...0262253299997# But I look at it just like I look at back ground radiation. We live with the potential for cancers and added input adds to the genetic chance of dealing with a bad interaction may increase. So I tend to go lower exposure and hope my genes agree. Why poison when it is not a cure just a response to nature practicing selecting breeding. -- Bill S. Jersey USA zone 5 shade garden What use one more wake up call? globalvoicesonline.org http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlfKdbWwruY |
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In article ,
Frank wrote: On 8/2/2010 2:35 PM, Billy wrote: In , wrote: http://www.finegardening.com/plants/...den-myths.aspx I'm sure any garden can find things to take exception to in this article. Mostly the article makes errors of omission. For example Myth: Organic pesticides are less toxic than synthetic ones I can't think of any organic pesticide that is as toxic as Sevin, but the whole point of organic gardening is to avoid pesticides in the first place, and that is done using Integrated Pest Management (IPM). Spraying Milk Spore in the Fall is better than waiting until the following summer and being tempted to use Sevin on Japanese beetles. Ladybugs will help you control aphids with no sprays at all. Identify your problem first, before treating it. Excellent lecture years ago by Bruce Ames. He pointed out that major defense mechanism of plants are toxins. I know you are afraid of man made chemicals but it's hard to beat toxicity of those in nature ;) At least natural toxins degrade, not so POPs: aldrin, chlordane, DDT, dieldrin, endrin, heptachlor, hexachlorobenzene, mirex, polychlorinated biphenyls, polychlorinated dibenzo-p-dioxins, polychlorinated dibenzofurans, toxaphene, or (PAHs) carcinogenic polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons, and certain brominated flame-retardants, as well as some organometallic compounds such as tributyltin (TBT). The gift that keeps on giving. (Ger) das Gift ---- (Eng) Poison Yes, they scare me, Frank, and if you had any sense at all, they would scare you too. -- - Billy "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini. http://www.democracynow.org/2010/7/2/maude http://english.aljazeera.net/video/m...515308172.html |
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On 8/2/2010 3:54 PM, Billy wrote:
In , wrote: On 8/2/2010 2:35 PM, Billy wrote: In , wrote: http://www.finegardening.com/plants/...den-myths.aspx I'm sure any garden can find things to take exception to in this article. Mostly the article makes errors of omission. For example Myth: Organic pesticides are less toxic than synthetic ones I can't think of any organic pesticide that is as toxic as Sevin, but the whole point of organic gardening is to avoid pesticides in the first place, and that is done using Integrated Pest Management (IPM). Spraying Milk Spore in the Fall is better than waiting until the following summer and being tempted to use Sevin on Japanese beetles. Ladybugs will help you control aphids with no sprays at all. Identify your problem first, before treating it. Excellent lecture years ago by Bruce Ames. He pointed out that major defense mechanism of plants are toxins. I know you are afraid of man made chemicals but it's hard to beat toxicity of those in nature ;) At least natural toxins degrade, not so POPs: aldrin, chlordane, DDT, dieldrin, endrin, heptachlor, hexachlorobenzene, mirex, polychlorinated biphenyls, polychlorinated dibenzo-p-dioxins, polychlorinated dibenzofurans, toxaphene, or (PAHs) carcinogenic polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons, and certain brominated flame-retardants, as well as some organometallic compounds such as tributyltin (TBT). The gift that keeps on giving. (Ger) das Gift ---- (Eng) Poison Yes, they scare me, Frank, and if you had any sense at all, they would scare you too. None of these are currently sold. A good chemist knows how to handle chemicals ;) |
Informational
In article ,
Frank wrote: On 8/2/2010 3:54 PM, Billy wrote: In , wrote: On 8/2/2010 2:35 PM, Billy wrote: In , wrote: http://www.finegardening.com/plants/...arden-myths.as px I'm sure any garden can find things to take exception to in this article. Mostly the article makes errors of omission. For example Myth: Organic pesticides are less toxic than synthetic ones I can't think of any organic pesticide that is as toxic as Sevin, but the whole point of organic gardening is to avoid pesticides in the first place, and that is done using Integrated Pest Management (IPM). Spraying Milk Spore in the Fall is better than waiting until the following summer and being tempted to use Sevin on Japanese beetles. Ladybugs will help you control aphids with no sprays at all. Identify your problem first, before treating it. Excellent lecture years ago by Bruce Ames. He pointed out that major defense mechanism of plants are toxins. I know you are afraid of man made chemicals but it's hard to beat toxicity of those in nature ;) At least natural toxins degrade, not so POPs: aldrin, chlordane, DDT, dieldrin, endrin, heptachlor, hexachlorobenzene, mirex, polychlorinated biphenyls, polychlorinated dibenzo-p-dioxins, polychlorinated dibenzofurans, toxaphene, or (PAHs) carcinogenic polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons, and certain brominated flame-retardants, as well as some organometallic compounds such as tributyltin (TBT). The gift that keeps on giving. (Ger) das Gift ---- (Eng) Poison Yes, they scare me, Frank, and if you had any sense at all, they would scare you too. None of these are currently sold. A good chemist knows how to handle chemicals ;) Do you even know a good chemist? Frank, why do you continue to follow me around, makeing a fool of yourself? If I needed a fool, you'd be the first person that I'd call, Frank. OK? The correct answer, Frank, is that none of these chemicals are currently sold in the United States, but it doesn't really matter, does it, because they're not going to go away anytime soon. Maybe that's why they're called "Persistant Organic Pollutants" (POP), hmmmm, Frank? Or are you going to be petulant now, and stomp your little foot, Frank? There must be someone else you can bore, Frank. -- - Billy "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini. http://www.democracynow.org/2010/7/2/maude http://english.aljazeera.net/video/m...515308172.html |
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On 8/2/2010 6:00 PM, Billy wrote:
In , wrote: On 8/2/2010 3:54 PM, Billy wrote: In , wrote: On 8/2/2010 2:35 PM, Billy wrote: In , wrote: http://www.finegardening.com/plants/...arden-myths.as px I'm sure any garden can find things to take exception to in this article. Mostly the article makes errors of omission. For example Myth: Organic pesticides are less toxic than synthetic ones I can't think of any organic pesticide that is as toxic as Sevin, but the whole point of organic gardening is to avoid pesticides in the first place, and that is done using Integrated Pest Management (IPM). Spraying Milk Spore in the Fall is better than waiting until the following summer and being tempted to use Sevin on Japanese beetles. Ladybugs will help you control aphids with no sprays at all. Identify your problem first, before treating it. Excellent lecture years ago by Bruce Ames. He pointed out that major defense mechanism of plants are toxins. I know you are afraid of man made chemicals but it's hard to beat toxicity of those in nature ;) At least natural toxins degrade, not so POPs: aldrin, chlordane, DDT, dieldrin, endrin, heptachlor, hexachlorobenzene, mirex, polychlorinated biphenyls, polychlorinated dibenzo-p-dioxins, polychlorinated dibenzofurans, toxaphene, or (PAHs) carcinogenic polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons, and certain brominated flame-retardants, as well as some organometallic compounds such as tributyltin (TBT). The gift that keeps on giving. (Ger) das Gift ---- (Eng) Poison Yes, they scare me, Frank, and if you had any sense at all, they would scare you too. None of these are currently sold. A good chemist knows how to handle chemicals ;) Do you even know a good chemist? Frank, why do you continue to follow me around, makeing a fool of yourself? If I needed a fool, you'd be the first person that I'd call, Frank. OK? The correct answer, Frank, is that none of these chemicals are currently sold in the United States, but it doesn't really matter, does it, because they're not going to go away anytime soon. Maybe that's why they're called "Persistant Organic Pollutants" (POP), hmmmm, Frank? Or are you going to be petulant now, and stomp your little foot, Frank? There must be someone else you can bore, Frank. You love the attention. I'm sure you'll want to get in the last word ;) |
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Bill who putters wrote:
In article , brooklyn1 wrote: http://www.finegardening.com/plants/...den-myths.aspx "Myth: Organic pesticides are less toxic than synthetic ones Truth: Misused pesticides can be harmful, regardless of whether they are considered natural or synthetic. Pyrethrum, for example, is made from chrysanthemums but is still toxic to people and pets when handled improperly. Whenever possible, it's best to select the least toxic control option available because, even if not lethal, many of these pesticides can cause serious health complications. Safe storage of these products can help prevent any harmful accidents. Read and follow all label directions, and remember that these products are tools, not miracle workers or silver bullets. Pesticides cannot correct mistakes made in plant selection, installation, or maintenance." ............................. Being Picky I've found pyrethrum to be an excellent insecticide. That said I've noticed that Pyrethrum is usually dissolved in xylene and combined with rotenone. 1) Xylene is a human carcinogen. 2) Rotenone has a ongoing study for human effects like Parkinson's disease. But just pyrethrum http://www.greenislanddistributors.c...600Xclude_MSDS Says slight #1 on all counts One of the little laughs I get from some of my strict (devout?) organic growing friends is that pyrethrums made in a lab are harmful but those extracted from the flower are OK. This little bit of wisdom is enshrined in some organic certification standards! David |
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In article ,
Frank wrote: On 8/2/2010 6:00 PM, Billy wrote: In , wrote: On 8/2/2010 3:54 PM, Billy wrote: In , wrote: On 8/2/2010 2:35 PM, Billy wrote: In , wrote: http://www.finegardening.com/plants/...g-garden-myths. as px I'm sure any garden can find things to take exception to in this article. Mostly the article makes errors of omission. For example Myth: Organic pesticides are less toxic than synthetic ones I can't think of any organic pesticide that is as toxic as Sevin, but the whole point of organic gardening is to avoid pesticides in the first place, and that is done using Integrated Pest Management (IPM). Spraying Milk Spore in the Fall is better than waiting until the following summer and being tempted to use Sevin on Japanese beetles. Ladybugs will help you control aphids with no sprays at all. Identify your problem first, before treating it. Excellent lecture years ago by Bruce Ames. He pointed out that major defense mechanism of plants are toxins. I know you are afraid of man made chemicals but it's hard to beat toxicity of those in nature ;) At least natural toxins degrade, not so POPs: aldrin, chlordane, DDT, dieldrin, endrin, heptachlor, hexachlorobenzene, mirex, polychlorinated biphenyls, polychlorinated dibenzo-p-dioxins, polychlorinated dibenzofurans, toxaphene, or (PAHs) carcinogenic polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons, and certain brominated flame-retardants, as well as some organometallic compounds such as tributyltin (TBT). The gift that keeps on giving. (Ger) das Gift ---- (Eng) Poison Yes, they scare me, Frank, and if you had any sense at all, they would scare you too. None of these are currently sold. A good chemist knows how to handle chemicals ;) Do you even know a good chemist? Frank, why do you continue to follow me around, makeing a fool of yourself? If I needed a fool, you'd be the first person that I'd call, Frank. OK? The correct answer, Frank, is that none of these chemicals are currently sold in the United States, but it doesn't really matter, does it, because they're not going to go away anytime soon. Maybe that's why they're called "Persistant Organic Pollutants" (POP), hmmmm, Frank? Or are you going to be petulant now, and stomp your little foot, Frank? There must be someone else you can bore, Frank. You love the attention. I'm sure you'll want to get in the last word ;) Thank you, fool. -- - Billy "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini. http://www.democracynow.org/2010/7/2/maude http://english.aljazeera.net/video/m...515308172.html |
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On 8/3/2010 12:33 AM, Billy wrote:
In , wrote: On 8/2/2010 6:00 PM, Billy wrote: In , wrote: On 8/2/2010 3:54 PM, Billy wrote: In , wrote: On 8/2/2010 2:35 PM, Billy wrote: In , wrote: http://www.finegardening.com/plants/...g-garden-myths. as px I'm sure any garden can find things to take exception to in this article. Mostly the article makes errors of omission. For example Myth: Organic pesticides are less toxic than synthetic ones I can't think of any organic pesticide that is as toxic as Sevin, but the whole point of organic gardening is to avoid pesticides in the first place, and that is done using Integrated Pest Management (IPM). Spraying Milk Spore in the Fall is better than waiting until the following summer and being tempted to use Sevin on Japanese beetles. Ladybugs will help you control aphids with no sprays at all. Identify your problem first, before treating it. Excellent lecture years ago by Bruce Ames. He pointed out that major defense mechanism of plants are toxins. I know you are afraid of man made chemicals but it's hard to beat toxicity of those in nature ;) At least natural toxins degrade, not so POPs: aldrin, chlordane, DDT, dieldrin, endrin, heptachlor, hexachlorobenzene, mirex, polychlorinated biphenyls, polychlorinated dibenzo-p-dioxins, polychlorinated dibenzofurans, toxaphene, or (PAHs) carcinogenic polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons, and certain brominated flame-retardants, as well as some organometallic compounds such as tributyltin (TBT). The gift that keeps on giving. (Ger) das Gift ---- (Eng) Poison Yes, they scare me, Frank, and if you had any sense at all, they would scare you too. None of these are currently sold. A good chemist knows how to handle chemicals ;) Do you even know a good chemist? Frank, why do you continue to follow me around, makeing a fool of yourself? If I needed a fool, you'd be the first person that I'd call, Frank. OK? The correct answer, Frank, is that none of these chemicals are currently sold in the United States, but it doesn't really matter, does it, because they're not going to go away anytime soon. Maybe that's why they're called "Persistant Organic Pollutants" (POP), hmmmm, Frank? Or are you going to be petulant now, and stomp your little foot, Frank? There must be someone else you can bore, Frank. You love the attention. I'm sure you'll want to get in the last word ;) Thank you, fool. Come one Billy. Let's see who looks sillie ;) |
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"Billy" wrote in message
... In article , brooklyn1 wrote: http://www.finegardening.com/plants/...den-myths.aspx I'm sure any garden can find things to take exception to in this article. Mostly the article makes errors of omission. For example Myth: Organic pesticides are less toxic than synthetic ones I can't think of any organic pesticide that is as toxic as Sevin, but the whole point of organic gardening is to avoid pesticides in the first place, and that is done using Integrated Pest Management (IPM). Spraying Milk Spore in the Fall is better than waiting until the following summer and being tempted to use Sevin on Japanese beetles. Ladybugs will help you control aphids with no sprays at all. Identify your problem first, before treating it. "Myth: Organic pesticides are less toxic than synthetic ones" Yes, it's a simplistic statement. But the average consumer is pretty dumb, and they fall for that comment. A friend of mine is having problems with ants in the house. Two exterminators told her they use a product which "is made from chrysanthemums". She liked that idea. It made her smile. Of course, the distant relative of the product (a synthetic pyrethroid whose name I don't have handy at the moment) originally came from flowers 40+ years ago. But not the actual product they sold her. I didn't say a word to her. It's not worth the effort any more. Was this stuff as dangerous as banned products we used to use 40 years ago? Probably not. Is it safe? Nobody can know, and nobody will ever know. |
Informational
In article ,
"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote: "Billy" wrote in message ... In article , brooklyn1 wrote: http://www.finegardening.com/plants/...den-myths.aspx I'm sure any garden can find things to take exception to in this article. Mostly the article makes errors of omission. For example Myth: Organic pesticides are less toxic than synthetic ones I can't think of any organic pesticide that is as toxic as Sevin, but the whole point of organic gardening is to avoid pesticides in the first place, and that is done using Integrated Pest Management (IPM). Spraying Milk Spore in the Fall is better than waiting until the following summer and being tempted to use Sevin on Japanese beetles. Ladybugs will help you control aphids with no sprays at all. Identify your problem first, before treating it. "Myth: Organic pesticides are less toxic than synthetic ones" Yes, it's a simplistic statement. But the average consumer is pretty dumb, and they fall for that comment. A friend of mine is having problems with ants in the house. Two exterminators told her they use a product which "is made from chrysanthemums". She liked that idea. It made her smile. Of course, the distant relative of the product (a synthetic pyrethroid whose name I don't have handy at the moment) originally came from flowers 40+ years ago. But not the actual product they sold her. I didn't say a word to her. It's not worth the effort any more. Was this stuff as dangerous as banned products we used to use 40 years ago? Probably not. Is it safe? Nobody can know, and nobody will ever know. Good to see you back Joe. The reason I responded wasn't because the statement was wrong (although I'd be surprised if anything organic were as lethal as Sevin, but I've been surprised before), but because I thought the focus was too narrow in scope, pesticides. Pesticides should be the last line of defense in an organic garden, or an organic world. I know when I first started gardening seriously, I was overwhelmed that all the plants needed individualize care and that I couldn't just stick 'em in the ground and water them to get good yields. Then to discover that there wasn't a "one size fits all" insecticide intimidated me more. Lets face it, gardening is complicated, and as you you become a better gardener, there are new challenges to be dealt with. IPM is one of those challenges. It's important to figure out who are the good guys, and who are the bad guys. I wish I knew what I did this year because have ladybugs all over the place. 'Course it could just mean that I have aphids that I haven't discovered yet ;O) Or one can plant angelica, dill, coreopsis, cosmos, sunflowers, and/or dandelion, and attract green lacewings to battle your aphids. If you have Japanese beetle, learn about "milky spore" and encourage your neighbors to use it too. Probably the easiest thing would be to check with your local extention office or Master Gardeners to see if they don't have pictures of local garden pests as well as their biological controls. Other parts of "Gardening Myths" were fine. It was only a few years back that I learned (or unlearned) that the a stump of a limb shouldn't be painted over, or that B1 was totally bogus. With Euell Gibbons in mind, I sallied forth yesterday into the woods in search of blackberries. An hour and a half later, wheezing and gasping for breath as I slowly came back up the hill, I proudly clutched a pitcher of free (not counting the lost blood) blackberries, which several hours later, as a cobbler, became dessert to our pesto dinner. Gonna hafta go get me some more of that free food, before the harvest shuts down my free time. -- - Billy "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini. http://www.democracynow.org/2010/7/2/maude http://english.aljazeera.net/video/m...515308172.html |
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