Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1   Report Post  
Old 29-04-2011, 04:34 AM posted to rec.gardens
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by GardenBanter: Jun 2009
Posts: 14
Default to till or not to till?

Hello,

The last time I asked a question on this group, I got some good advice
and some outrageousness. It was all fun. Let's see if we can do that
again.

(I'm not qualified to give much advice on a garden group.)

I've read websites and print articles that say I SHOULD and that I
SHOULDN'T till my garden soil. What do you think?

Here are the particulars:
The area in question is about 5 feet by 40 feet, rich dark soil with
lots of clay, in Zone 6B. I want to plant a wildflower mix (both
annuals and perennials). Until recently, the area was covered with
lawn grass and weeds. I sprayed a supposedly eco-friendly plant-
killer to clear it out. (How can a plant killer be eco-friendly?)

After the recommended waiting period of 7 days, I started to iron-rake
the grass away.

How well should I clear the dead grass & weeds?

I want to clear them out, so that the new flower seeds (yet to be
planted) can sprout. But the more I disrupt the soil, the less
fertile it is. And there's the question of not-quite-dead grass
reviving and getting in the way.

Is this one of those areas where "the jury is still out"? If so, then
I can do anything and there's a chance I'll be right. Or is there
definitely a yes-or-no answer?

Thank you for all answers.

Ted Shoemaker

  #2   Report Post  
Old 29-04-2011, 05:16 AM posted to rec.gardens
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by GardenBanter: Jan 2011
Posts: 410
Default to till or not to till?

Ted Shoemaker wrote:
Hello,

The last time I asked a question on this group, I got some good advice
and some outrageousness. It was all fun. Let's see if we can do that
again.

(I'm not qualified to give much advice on a garden group.)

I've read websites and print articles that say I SHOULD and that I
SHOULDN'T till my garden soil. What do you think?

Here are the particulars:
The area in question is about 5 feet by 40 feet, rich dark soil with
lots of clay, in Zone 6B. I want to plant a wildflower mix (both
annuals and perennials). Until recently, the area was covered with
lawn grass and weeds. I sprayed a supposedly eco-friendly plant-
killer to clear it out. (How can a plant killer be eco-friendly?)

After the recommended waiting period of 7 days, I started to iron-rake
the grass away.

How well should I clear the dead grass & weeds?

I want to clear them out, so that the new flower seeds (yet to be
planted) can sprout. But the more I disrupt the soil, the less
fertile it is. And there's the question of not-quite-dead grass
reviving and getting in the way.

Is this one of those areas where "the jury is still out"? If so, then
I can do anything and there's a chance I'll be right. Or is there
definitely a yes-or-no answer?

Thank you for all answers.

Ted Shoemaker


Not sure unless you tell us the plant killer product name? Does the the
instructions say like wait three weeks before reseeding? By then more
weeds grow

For such a small area, I would have turned the soil by hand with a shovel
and have the grass face down with soil facing upward. The grass will
decompose and help the soil beneath. Some clay is good that helps water
retention. Then plant the seeds.

Good luck, gardening is an experiment.

--
Enjoy Life... Nad R (Garden in zone 5a Michigan)
  #3   Report Post  
Old 29-04-2011, 05:29 AM posted to rec.gardens
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by GardenBanter: Jan 2011
Posts: 410
Default to till or not to till?

Nad R wrote:
Ted Shoemaker wrote:
Hello,

The last time I asked a question on this group, I got some good advice
and some outrageousness. It was all fun. Let's see if we can do that
again.

(I'm not qualified to give much advice on a garden group.)

I've read websites and print articles that say I SHOULD and that I
SHOULDN'T till my garden soil. What do you think?

Here are the particulars:
The area in question is about 5 feet by 40 feet, rich dark soil with
lots of clay, in Zone 6B. I want to plant a wildflower mix (both
annuals and perennials). Until recently, the area was covered with
lawn grass and weeds. I sprayed a supposedly eco-friendly plant-
killer to clear it out. (How can a plant killer be eco-friendly?)

After the recommended waiting period of 7 days, I started to iron-rake
the grass away.

How well should I clear the dead grass & weeds?

I want to clear them out, so that the new flower seeds (yet to be
planted) can sprout. But the more I disrupt the soil, the less
fertile it is. And there's the question of not-quite-dead grass
reviving and getting in the way.

Is this one of those areas where "the jury is still out"? If so, then
I can do anything and there's a chance I'll be right. Or is there
definitely a yes-or-no answer?

Thank you for all answers.

Ted Shoemaker


Not sure unless you tell us the plant killer product name? Does the the
instructions say like wait three weeks before reseeding? By then more
weeds grow

For such a small area, I would have turned the soil by hand with a shovel
and have the grass face down with soil facing upward. The grass will
decompose and help the soil beneath. Some clay is good that helps water
retention. Then plant the seeds.

Good luck, gardening is an experiment.


My mistake, brain dead, I know you stated 7 days so ignore that part. It is
late need more sleep and i need to sign up for an Internet rehab workshop.

The dead grass may have lingering chemicals or some disease that could
effect the other plants so yea remove.

I must make sure I can sleep through the night and early morning so I must
turn off my clock radio and unplug TVs. So I can completely miss the
insanity of the Royal Wedding.... My niece wanted me to record it, too bad,
oh god no, someone help me!

--
Enjoy Life... Nad R (Garden in zone 5a Michigan)
  #4   Report Post  
Old 29-04-2011, 05:55 AM posted to rec.gardens
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by GardenBanter: May 2007
Posts: 750
Default to till or not to till?

Ted Shoemaker wrote:
Hello,

The last time I asked a question on this group, I got some good advice
and some outrageousness. It was all fun. Let's see if we can do that
again.

(I'm not qualified to give much advice on a garden group.)

I've read websites and print articles that say I SHOULD and that I
SHOULDN'T till my garden soil. What do you think?

Here are the particulars:
The area in question is about 5 feet by 40 feet, rich dark soil with
lots of clay, in Zone 6B. I want to plant a wildflower mix (both
annuals and perennials). Until recently, the area was covered with
lawn grass and weeds. I sprayed a supposedly eco-friendly plant-
killer to clear it out. (How can a plant killer be eco-friendly?)

After the recommended waiting period of 7 days, I started to iron-rake
the grass away.

How well should I clear the dead grass & weeds?

I want to clear them out, so that the new flower seeds (yet to be
planted) can sprout. But the more I disrupt the soil, the less
fertile it is. And there's the question of not-quite-dead grass
reviving and getting in the way.

Is this one of those areas where "the jury is still out"? If so, then
I can do anything and there's a chance I'll be right. Or is there
definitely a yes-or-no answer?

Thank you for all answers.


Removing the grass with a sod cutter would carry away most of the grass and weed
seeds, resulting in a more weed-free garden. Then till or not.



  #5   Report Post  
Old 29-04-2011, 07:16 AM posted to rec.gardens
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by GardenBanter: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,438
Default to till or not to till?

In article ,
Nad R wrote:

Nad R wrote:
Ted Shoemaker wrote:
Hello,

The last time I asked a question on this group, I got some good advice
and some outrageousness. It was all fun. Let's see if we can do that
again.

(I'm not qualified to give much advice on a garden group.)

I've read websites and print articles that say I SHOULD and that I
SHOULDN'T till my garden soil. What do you think?

Here are the particulars:
The area in question is about 5 feet by 40 feet, rich dark soil with
lots of clay, in Zone 6B. I want to plant a wildflower mix (both
annuals and perennials). Until recently, the area was covered with
lawn grass and weeds. I sprayed a supposedly eco-friendly plant-
killer to clear it out. (How can a plant killer be eco-friendly?)

After the recommended waiting period of 7 days, I started to iron-rake
the grass away.

How well should I clear the dead grass & weeds?

I want to clear them out, so that the new flower seeds (yet to be
planted) can sprout. But the more I disrupt the soil, the less
fertile it is. And there's the question of not-quite-dead grass
reviving and getting in the way.

Is this one of those areas where "the jury is still out"? If so, then
I can do anything and there's a chance I'll be right. Or is there
definitely a yes-or-no answer?

Thank you for all answers.

Ted Shoemaker


Not sure unless you tell us the plant killer product name? Does the the
instructions say like wait three weeks before reseeding? By then more
weeds grow

For such a small area, I would have turned the soil by hand with a shovel
and have the grass face down with soil facing upward. The grass will
decompose and help the soil beneath. Some clay is good that helps water
retention. Then plant the seeds.

Good luck, gardening is an experiment.


My mistake, brain dead, I know you stated 7 days so ignore that part. It is
late need more sleep and i need to sign up for an Internet rehab workshop.

The dead grass may have lingering chemicals or some disease that could
effect the other plants so yea remove.

I must make sure I can sleep through the night and early morning so I must
turn off my clock radio and unplug TVs. So I can completely miss the
insanity of the Royal Wedding.... My niece wanted me to record it, too bad,
oh god no, someone help me!


The antidote of course is a bottle of Irish whiskey. Jameson would be
fine. It will free the body from the tyranny of the mind.




Gardening is civil and social, but it wants the vigor and freedom of the
forest and the outlaw.
- Henry David Thoreau
--
- Billy

Bush's 3rd term: Obama plus another elective war
Bush's 4th term: we can't afford it

America is not broke. The country is awash in wealth and cash.
It's just that it's not in your hands. It has been transferred, in the
greatest heist in history, from the workers and consumers to the banks
and the portfolios of the uber-rich.
http://theuptake.org/2011/03/05/michael-moore-the-big-lie-wisconsin-is-broke/


  #6   Report Post  
Old 29-04-2011, 03:46 PM posted to rec.gardens
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by GardenBanter: Sep 2010
Posts: 714
Default to till or not to till?

On Thu, 28 Apr 2011 19:34:21 -0700 (PDT), Ted Shoemaker
wrote:

Hello,

The last time I asked a question on this group, I got some good advice
and some outrageousness. It was all fun. Let's see if we can do that
again.

(I'm not qualified to give much advice on a garden group.)

I've read websites and print articles that say I SHOULD and that I
SHOULDN'T till my garden soil. What do you think?

Here are the particulars:
The area in question is about 5 feet by 40 feet, rich dark soil with
lots of clay, in Zone 6B. I want to plant a wildflower mix (both
annuals and perennials). Until recently, the area was covered with
lawn grass and weeds. I sprayed a supposedly eco-friendly plant-
killer to clear it out. (How can a plant killer be eco-friendly?)

After the recommended waiting period of 7 days, I started to iron-rake
the grass away.

How well should I clear the dead grass & weeds?

I want to clear them out, so that the new flower seeds (yet to be
planted) can sprout. But the more I disrupt the soil, the less
fertile it is. And there's the question of not-quite-dead grass
reviving and getting in the way.

Is this one of those areas where "the jury is still out"? If so, then
I can do anything and there's a chance I'll be right. Or is there
definitely a yes-or-no answer?

Thank you for all answers.

Ted Shoemaker


If you applied a defolient (WTF did you do such a moronic thing) I'd
not recommend planting any seed, especially not mixed wildflower seed
for at least a full year... then till... for wildflowers till deep (at
least 10").
  #7   Report Post  
Old 29-04-2011, 09:47 PM posted to rec.gardens
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by GardenBanter: Nov 2009
Posts: 152
Default to till or not to till?

g'day ted,

too easy no till of course raised beds the way to go.

http://www.lensgarden.com.au/builds.htm

http://www.lensgarden.com.au/straw_bale_garden.htm


On Thu, 28 Apr 2011 19:34:21 -0700 (PDT), Ted Shoemaker
wrote:

snipped
--

Matthew 25:13 KJV
"Watch therefore, for ye know neither
the day nor the hour wherein the Son
of man cometh"

Mark 13:33 "Take ye heed, watch and pray:
for ye know not when the time is".

and also: Isaiah 38:1&17-18 KJV

1: Thus saith the Lord, set thine house in order: for thou shalt die and not live.
17: for thou hast cast all my sins behind my back.
18: For the grave cannot praise thee, death cannot celebrate thee: they that go down in the pit cannot hope for truth.

len

With peace and brightest of blessings,

"Seek truth and understanding will follow"

http://www.lensgarden.com.au/
  #8   Report Post  
Old 29-04-2011, 10:04 PM posted to rec.gardens
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by GardenBanter: Jun 2009
Posts: 14
Default to till or not to till?

On Apr 29, 8:46*am, Brooklyn1 Gravesend1 wrote:

If you applied a defolient (WTF did you do such a moronic thing)


I applied a grass killer. I did such a moronic thing because I wanted
to replace a little patch of grass with flowers. Otherwise, I'd have
grass growing in the middle of the flower garden.

If you have a better way, please tell.

Ted Shoemaker
  #9   Report Post  
Old 29-04-2011, 11:02 PM posted to rec.gardens
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by GardenBanter: Jan 2011
Posts: 410
Default to till or not to till?

Ted Shoemaker wrote:
On Apr 29, 8:46 am, Brooklyn1 Gravesend1 wrote:

If you applied a defolient (WTF did you do such a moronic thing)


I applied a grass killer. I did such a moronic thing because I wanted
to replace a little patch of grass with flowers. Otherwise, I'd have
grass growing in the middle of the flower garden.

If you have a better way, please tell.

Ted Shoemaker


Hmmm... The first posting I think you stated, stated something like
stating... PLANT KILLER, now it is grass killer. Big difference in my
thinking. See grass is a monocot and flowers are dicots. Most weed killers
are designed to kill dicots only and not monocots. Grass killers go after
monocots only, single blade plants like grass and not flowers. Toxins like
Total Killers and Plant killers kill both dicots and monocots.

Because my initial thinking was it takes a minimum of three weeks for total
or plant killers to somewhat go away. The seven day thing kinda had me
wondering. So a grass only killer may not harm the flower seeds at all.
Make sense?

I also had a good nights sleep and grateful that stupid wedding is over
with. Why don't people just go to Vegas and get it over with. Certainly
cheaper. Those Royal Lipless wonders.

--
Enjoy Life... Nad R (Garden in zone 5a Michigan)
  #10   Report Post  
Old 30-04-2011, 05:06 AM posted to rec.gardens
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by GardenBanter: Jun 2010
Posts: 2,845
Default to till or not to till?

very complicated topic.

many wild flowers are not suitable for
rich soils. other plants grow better and
smother them.

some species need cover of various kinds
to get established.

some species can be pests in surrounding
formal gardens or lawns (i've got one species
introduced via a mix that i've been trying
to get rid of for years).

tilling stirs seeds around.

some species of grass and other weeds take
more than one round of poison to kill.

grasses and other weeds can come back via
roots from the side if there is no barrier.
and almost any barrier can fail or be in
the way or ...

then there are seeds still left behind
that will sprout, or birds, wind, rain,
deer, moles, ants, etc can move seeds.

perennials can take several years to get
to full size.

overall, i'd guess that it's unlikely you'll
get satisfactory results from this. it
will take a lot of effort and you'll probably
only end up with a few species amid a lot of
grass and weeds.

better to step back and actually plan a
perennial garden and then once that's started
you can open up a few spaces and plant the
annuals you want. this way you don't overdo
your capacity for weeding and caretaking.
26 sq yards of fertile clay is not something
easily kept up with (left bare after one
round of poison and within a month of that
and getting enough water and it wouldn't
even phase it).

i'd select perennials from a local greenhouse
that are suitable for the soil and fit the
color or other characteristics you want (bee,
hummingbird, moth, butterfly, bird, etc). i'd
not plant too many to start with, because you
don't want to overdo it. as you get more
experience you can add more and that helps things
go better too. also planting sparse means
you leave some spaces available for later
annuals or volunteers from the neighbors who
have gardens (or even spots for food plants,
a little garlic here or chives there can go
a long ways. beware chives, they can take over,
but they have pretty purple flowers. )...

etc.


songbird


  #11   Report Post  
Old 30-04-2011, 07:18 AM posted to rec.gardens
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by GardenBanter: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,438
Default to till or not to till?

In article ,
songbird wrote:

grasses and other weeds can come back via
roots from the side if there is no barrier.
and almost any barrier can fail or be in
the way or ...

then there are seeds still left behind
that will sprout, or birds, wind, rain,
deer, moles, ants, etc can move seeds.

perennials can take several years to get
to full size.

overall, i'd guess that it's unlikely you'll
get satisfactory results from this. it
will take a lot of effort and you'll probably
only end up with a few species amid a lot of
grass and weeds.


Your attitude sounds like you have failed already. Tell you what. Until
your ready to plant, feed the soil. If you plant, feed the soil. If you
don't want weeds; cover with newspaper and mulch, and feed the soil.
It's not that hard.
---

What do you do when a tomato goes on strike?
You picket.
--
- Billy

Bush's 3rd term: Obama plus another elective war
Bush's 4th term: we can't afford it

America is not broke. The country is awash in wealth and cash.
It's just that it's not in your hands. It has been transferred, in the
greatest heist in history, from the workers and consumers to the banks
and the portfolios of the uber-rich.
http://theuptake.org/2011/03/05/michael-moore-the-big-lie-wisconsin-is-broke/
  #12   Report Post  
Old 30-04-2011, 06:41 PM posted to rec.gardens
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by GardenBanter: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,438
Default to till or not to till?

In article
,
Billy wrote:

In article ,
songbird wrote:

grasses and other weeds can come back via
roots from the side if there is no barrier.
and almost any barrier can fail or be in
the way or ...

then there are seeds still left behind
that will sprout, or birds, wind, rain,
deer, moles, ants, etc can move seeds.

perennials can take several years to get
to full size.

overall, i'd guess that it's unlikely you'll
get satisfactory results from this. it
will take a lot of effort and you'll probably
only end up with a few species amid a lot of
grass and weeds.


Your attitude sounds like you have failed already. Tell you what. Until
your ready to plant, feed the soil. If you plant, feed the soil. If you
don't want weeds; cover with newspaper and mulch, and feed the soil.
It's not that hard.
---

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...1_notill15.htm
l

Should your garden be a no-till zone?
Marty Kraft is on a mission to spread the word about no-till gardening.
By Edward M. Eveld
McClatchy Newspapers

KANSAS CITY, Mo. "All through the long winter, I dream of my garden.
On the first warm day of spring, I dig my fingers deep into the soft
earth. I can feel its energy, and my spirits soar." Helen Hayes
So go ahead and dig your fingers into the soil. But put down the shovel
and park the tiller. Here's a different plan that will seem almost
sacrilegious to backyard gardeners: Don't till.

Marty Kraft, a Kansas City, Mo., environmentalist, says it's better all
around for the soil, your plants, the planet if you completely
refrain from that satisfying habit of turning over the soil in the
spring.

Make holes in your garden bed only for planting, he says.

"When you till, when you turn the soil over, you expose the organic
material, which becomes more vulnerable to bacterial attack," Kraft
says. "You're breaking down your organic material and sending it up into
the atmosphere as carbon dioxide."

Kraft is on a mission to spread the word about no-till gardening and has
launched a website at www.organotill.org.
It's going to take some persuasion.

Ben Sharda, executive director of Kansas City Community Gardens, said
the organization doesn't teach no-till gardening. He's not opposed to
the practice but sees some drawbacks.

"You can have a great garden both ways," Sharda says. "People have been
tilling for thousands of years, and it works."

Kraft knows that the prospect of not tilling, although less work, could
also be seen as disappointing: "Just looking at that dark earth feels
good, it smells good."

But, he says, "You deplete your soil in the process. Some people say
tilling makes as much sense as if we threw our cities in a blender every
year and rebuilt them."

While fans of garden tilling say that turning over the soil loosens it,
which is better for new plants, and breaks the weed and insect cycles,
no-tillers say those reasons are overblown.

Tilling can bring buried weed seeds to the surface, making it easier for
them to sprout. And mechanically loosening the soil is only temporary,
they say. Bad soil will reharden quickly.

Gardeners can make real improvements to their soil by not disturbing it
and by layering it with mulch and other organic material, such as
compost and manure, Kraft says. Water and microorganisms pull the good
stuff down into the soil. It's the natural way soil is improved.

In organic, no-till gardening, Kraft says, weeds are controlled by
covering the garden bed with layers of newspaper and maintaining a thick
layer of mulch, such as leaves and straw. Don't use landscaping bark, he
says.

Sharda worries that no-till can require a lot of attention, more than
beginning or even average gardeners may want to devote to their garden
bed.

No-tillers particularly like the nexus of creating locally better soil
while sequestering carbon, however small the individual impact.

"This is an opportunity for us to have an effect on global warming,"
Kraft says, "and in the process to learn something about soil biology.
You can't help but become a better gardener."



"So many seeds -- so little time."
--
- Billy

Bush's 3rd term: Obama plus another elective war
Bush's 4th term: we can't afford it

America is not broke. The country is awash in wealth and cash.
It's just that it's not in your hands. It has been transferred, in the
greatest heist in history, from the workers and consumers to the banks
and the portfolios of the uber-rich.
http://theuptake.org/2011/03/05/michael-moore-the-big-lie-wisconsin-is-broke/


Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules

Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Tropicals in preforms......why not...don't knock it till you try it! Tristin[_2_] Ponds 0 27-02-2007 10:04 PM
Till/no till Beecrofter Edible Gardening 2 17-05-2004 02:06 AM
Small No-Till Planter Brian Narkinsky sci.agriculture 4 26-04-2003 01:30 PM
Just started CO2 DIY, how long till bubbles? Dave M. Picklyk Freshwater Aquaria Plants 10 20-04-2003 07:21 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 09:56 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2004-2019 GardenBanter.co.uk.
The comments are property of their posters.
 

About Us

"It's about Gardening"

 

Copyright © 2017