Hi, I have been 4 years in my current home, and the back garden pretty much each year needs some new plants and shrubs. Although I admit we have in the past bought what looks nice and arent necessarily suited for our east facing heavy clay moisture retaining soil.

Firstly, I have over the last 2 months or so being contemplating removing the soil/clay from our flower bed about a foot or so and replacing with new soil mixed in with sand but adding more depth - so allowing for a total of 15 inches of decent soil to replace the harsh stuff we have now. Lots of digging out and replacing.....good idea?

As an aside, we had our lawn put down 2 years ago, and only now over the last month or two with some sunshine and lots of rain has it come back to life as it were....was previously, quite thinned out especially when cut and not really great looking - although fine when it looks like it needs cutting, again due to the clay soil and poor drainage - but I do throw down aftercut lawn care every so often when I mow it.

In terms of going forward and planting, what types of shrubs, plants, flowers that are all year round, and keep coming back are best suited for the environment I describe?

Thanks for the advice and recommendations in advance!!

mdemetri2 wrote:
Hi, I have been 4 years in my current home, and the back garden pretty
much each year needs some new plants and shrubs. Although I admit we
have in the past bought what looks nice and arent necessarily suited
for our east facing heavy clay moisture retaining soil.

Firstly, I have over the last 2 months or so being contemplating
removing the soil/clay from our flower bed about a foot or so and
replacing with new soil mixed in with sand but adding more depth - so
allowing for a total of 15 inches of decent soil to replace the harsh
stuff we have now. Lots of digging out and replacing.....good idea?


It is a quick fix that will work as long as you don't create a pond. The
area that you excavate must not go down into the clay or the plants (unless
bog-adapted) will drown. Either cut away enough so that the whole area
drains or build it up into a mound to get the same result. It may be more
effective to make sides for a raised bed depending on the lie of the land.
You have to take levels to work this out not guess.

As an aside, we had our lawn put down 2 years ago, and only now over
the last month or two with some sunshine and lots of rain has it come
back to life as it were....was previously, quite thinned out
especially when cut and not really great looking - although fine when
it looks like it needs cutting, again due to the clay soil and poor
drainage - but I do throw down aftercut lawn care every so often when
I mow it.


Unless you need a soft playing surface consider a ground cover that requires
less sun and attention. If keeping the grass try to amend the soil in situ
by applying clay breaker, top dressing and using a mulching blade on your
mower and leave the cuttings there.

D

On 8/8/12 2:02 PM, mdemetri2 wrote:
Hi, I have been 4 years in my current home, and the back garden pretty
much each year needs some new plants and shrubs. Although I admit we
have in the past bought what looks nice and arent necessarily suited for
our east facing heavy clay moisture retaining soil.

Firstly, I have over the last 2 months or so being contemplating
removing the soil/clay from our flower bed about a foot or so and
replacing with new soil mixed in with sand but adding more depth - so
allowing for a total of 15 inches of decent soil to replace the harsh
stuff we have now. Lots of digging out and replacing.....good idea?

What you propose will create an interface between top soil and subsoil.
Many plant roots will not cross that interface.

Instead, start by applying a generous amount of gypsum (calcium sulfate)
to the area. (I don't know about its availability in England, but I can
buy a 50 pound sack for US$9.) Water it lightly. If you don't get any
rain, water it again more heavily in about 3-5 days. Repeat rinsing the
gypsum into the soil ever 3-5 days if there is no rain. Gypsum will
dissolve and react with the clay to make it somewhat granular and porous.

After all the gypsum has disolved and rinsed into the soil, allow the
soil to dry for about a week. It should be moist in the top foot but
not wet. You might have to cover the area with a tarp while rain falls;
remove the tarp as soon as the rain ends so that the soil can continue
to dry.

When the soil is moist but not wet, apply your purchased top soil to a
depth of not more than a foot. Also broadcast a modest amount bonemeal
or superphosphate over the area. Using a motorized tiller, till to a
depth of 2 feet; this should result in an area more than a foot higher
than it had been (1 foot of top soil plus 1 foot of stirred natural soil
plus some air). You might want to hire a service to do the tilling, in
which case you will not hurt your back and you will not be liable if a
tiller blade breaks.

You will now have a 2-foot depth of well-prepared soil for planting.
Avoid walking across the area when it is really wet; otherwise, you will
undo much of the tilling.

Dress the area with more gypsum annually, about a month before the most
rainy part of the year. You will only have to wet down the gypsum and
allow the rain to rinse it into the soil. Roots will not find an
interface and will thus penetrate into the clay subsoil. With an annual
application of gypsum, nutrients added to the area will eventually leach
down into the clay, except for phosphorus. Phosphorus (bonemeal or
superphosphate) does not dissolve easily and must be placed where roots
will find it, which is why you apply that before tilling.


As an aside, we had our lawn put down 2 years ago, and only now over the
last month or two with some sunshine and lots of rain has it come back
to life as it were....was previously, quite thinned out especially when
cut and not really great looking - although fine when it looks like it
needs cutting, again due to the clay soil and poor drainage - but I do
throw down aftercut lawn care every so often when I mow it.

In terms of going forward and planting, what types of shrubs, plants,
flowers that are all year round, and keep coming back are best suited
for the environment I describe?

Thanks for the advice and recommendations in advance!!

Since I am not familiar with your climate, I cannot comment on lawn care
or recommend plants for you.

--
David E. Ross
Climate: California Mediterranean, see
http://www.rossde.com/garden/climate.html
Gardening diary at http://www.rossde.com/garden/diary

"mdemetri2" wrote in message
...

Firstly, I have over the last 2 months or so being contemplating
removing the soil/clay from our flower bed about a foot or so and
replacing with new soil mixed in with sand but adding more depth - so
allowing for a total of 15 inches of decent soil to replace the harsh
stuff we have now. Lots of digging out and replacing.....good idea?

No - not a good idea unless you go up rather than dig down. If you jsut dig
down and replace what is already there but leave allt he surroudnign clay,
you will in effect be building a bog garden if you get lots of rain.

As an aside, we had our lawn put down 2 years ago, and only now over the
last month or two with some sunshine and lots of rain has it come back
to life as it were....was previously, quite thinned out especially when
cut and not really great looking - although fine when it looks like it
needs cutting, again due to the clay soil and poor drainage - but I do
throw down aftercut lawn care every so often when I mow it.

You've probably been cutting it too short. People who are into 'lawns'
often do that because they don't think of it as being made up of 'grass'.
Set your mower at it's highest level and give the poor grass a chance and if
anyone starts making silly comments, tell them it's grass, and the funtion
of grass is groudn cover, weedy species suppression, dust abatement.

In terms of going forward and planting, what types of shrubs, plants,
flowers that are all year round, and keep coming back are best suited
for the environment I describe?

Dunno, but I'd suggest 2 things - a walk round the neirghbourhood with a
notepad and one of the Hessayan books on shrubs would be the way to go given
that you are int he UK - a local library would probably have one or be able
to get one for you.

David E. Ross wrote:
On 8/8/12 2:02 PM, mdemetri2 wrote:
Hi, I have been 4 years in my current home, and the back garden
pretty much each year needs some new plants and shrubs. Although I
admit we have in the past bought what looks nice and arent
necessarily suited for our east facing heavy clay moisture retaining
soil.

Firstly, I have over the last 2 months or so being contemplating
removing the soil/clay from our flower bed about a foot or so and
replacing with new soil mixed in with sand but adding more depth - so
allowing for a total of 15 inches of decent soil to replace the harsh
stuff we have now. Lots of digging out and replacing.....good idea?

What you propose will create an interface between top soil and
subsoil. Many plant roots will not cross that interface.


OK but it is a flower garden this may not be a problem.

D

On 8/8/12 10:12 PM, David Hare-Scott wrote:
David E. Ross wrote:
On 8/8/12 2:02 PM, mdemetri2 wrote:
Hi, I have been 4 years in my current home, and the back garden
pretty much each year needs some new plants and shrubs. Although I
admit we have in the past bought what looks nice and arent
necessarily suited for our east facing heavy clay moisture retaining
soil.

Firstly, I have over the last 2 months or so being contemplating
removing the soil/clay from our flower bed about a foot or so and
replacing with new soil mixed in with sand but adding more depth - so
allowing for a total of 15 inches of decent soil to replace the harsh
stuff we have now. Lots of digging out and replacing.....good idea?

What you propose will create an interface between top soil and
subsoil. Many plant roots will not cross that interface.


OK but it is a flower garden this may not be a problem.

D


At the end of the original message, mdemetri2 mentioned planting shrubs
and perennials. For those, this would indeed be a problem.

--
David E. Ross
Climate: California Mediterranean, see
http://www.rossde.com/garden/climate.html
Gardening diary at http://www.rossde.com/garden/diary

In article ,
"David Hare-Scott" wrote:

David E. Ross wrote:
On 8/8/12 2:02 PM, mdemetri2 wrote:
Hi, I have been 4 years in my current home, and the back garden
pretty much each year needs some new plants and shrubs. Although I
admit we have in the past bought what looks nice and arent
necessarily suited for our east facing heavy clay moisture retaining
soil.

Firstly, I have over the last 2 months or so being contemplating
removing the soil/clay from our flower bed about a foot or so and
replacing with new soil mixed in with sand but adding more depth - so
allowing for a total of 15 inches of decent soil to replace the harsh
stuff we have now. Lots of digging out and replacing.....good idea?

What you propose will create an interface between top soil and
subsoil. Many plant roots will not cross that interface.


OK but it is a flower garden this may not be a problem.

D

Is that 15 inches "just spread", or after watering?

--
Welcome to the New America.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA736oK9FPg
or
E Pluribus Unum
Green Party Nominee Jill Stein & Running Mate, Cheri Honkala
http://www.democracynow.org/2012/7/13/green_party_nominee_jill_stein_running

On Thu, 9 Aug 2012 15:12:21 +1000, David Hare-Scott wrote:
What you propose will create an interface between top soil and
subsoil. Many plant roots will not cross that interface.


OK but it is a flower garden this may not be a problem.

Yes, it can still be a problem. For instance, all the fertilizers and
all the minerals in your water that you dump
on the flower bed over the years -- the remains -- may become more
concentrated because they can't move past that X inches of "good soil",
and then you get plants in a saline soil, which collapsse and die.

What you're proposing makes a sort of giant flower pot. With a real
flower pot, you can tip it over at the end of a season, dump out the old
and replace the soil fairly readily. That's a whole lot more work with
a bed in the garden -- as much or more than you started the project with.


http://septictankinfo.com/Gayman_Clay.JPG is a micrograph of clay particles;
they are flat plates that tend to want to stack or shingle over each other,
forming water-impenetrable layers, particularly if there's enough sodium
in the soil or in what you add.

Treat clay soils with respect... they're difficult to grow on.

Kay

Kay Lancaster wrote:
On Thu, 9 Aug 2012 15:12:21 +1000, David Hare-Scott
wrote:
What you propose will create an interface between top soil and
subsoil. Many plant roots will not cross that interface.


OK but it is a flower garden this may not be a problem.

Yes, it can still be a problem. For instance, all the fertilizers and
all the minerals in your water that you dump
on the flower bed over the years -- the remains -- may become more
concentrated because they can't move past that X inches of "good
soil",

That is another reason that any made bed on top of clay has to have
drainage, whcih I had mentioned. It is a somewhat different issue to the
root barrier.

and then you get plants in a saline soil, which collapsse and die.

What you're proposing makes a sort of giant flower pot. With a real
flower pot, you can tip it over at the end of a season, dump out the
old
and replace the soil fairly readily. That's a whole lot more work
with
a bed in the garden -- as much or more than you started the project
with.


http://septictankinfo.com/Gayman_Clay.JPG is a micrograph of clay
particles; they are flat plates that tend to want to stack or shingle
over each other, forming water-impenetrable layers, particularly if
there's enough sodium
in the soil or in what you add.

Treat clay soils with respect... they're difficult to grow on.


yes indeed.

D

David E. Ross wrote:
On 8/8/12 10:12 PM, David Hare-Scott wrote:
David E. Ross wrote:
On 8/8/12 2:02 PM, mdemetri2 wrote:
Hi, I have been 4 years in my current home, and the back garden
pretty much each year needs some new plants and shrubs. Although I
admit we have in the past bought what looks nice and arent
necessarily suited for our east facing heavy clay moisture
retaining soil.

Firstly, I have over the last 2 months or so being contemplating
removing the soil/clay from our flower bed about a foot or so and
replacing with new soil mixed in with sand but adding more depth -
so allowing for a total of 15 inches of decent soil to replace the
harsh stuff we have now. Lots of digging out and
replacing.....good idea?

What you propose will create an interface between top soil and
subsoil. Many plant roots will not cross that interface.


OK but it is a flower garden this may not be a problem.

D


At the end of the original message, mdemetri2 mentioned planting
shrubs and perennials. For those, this would indeed be a problem.

How are you going to remove the barrier 15in or more down, how deep does the
clay have to be amended, how will you know when you have done it and how
long will that take? Maybe the answer instead is not to use deep rooted
plants or to build up mounds several feet high.

D

On 8/9/12 4:34 PM, David Hare-Scott wrote:
David E. Ross wrote:
On 8/8/12 10:12 PM, David Hare-Scott wrote:
David E. Ross wrote:
On 8/8/12 2:02 PM, mdemetri2 wrote:
Hi, I have been 4 years in my current home, and the back garden
pretty much each year needs some new plants and shrubs. Although I
admit we have in the past bought what looks nice and arent
necessarily suited for our east facing heavy clay moisture
retaining soil.

Firstly, I have over the last 2 months or so being contemplating
removing the soil/clay from our flower bed about a foot or so and
replacing with new soil mixed in with sand but adding more depth -
so allowing for a total of 15 inches of decent soil to replace the
harsh stuff we have now. Lots of digging out and
replacing.....good idea?

What you propose will create an interface between top soil and
subsoil. Many plant roots will not cross that interface.


OK but it is a flower garden this may not be a problem.

D


At the end of the original message, mdemetri2 mentioned planting
shrubs and perennials. For those, this would indeed be a problem.

How are you going to remove the barrier 15in or more down, how deep does the
clay have to be amended, how will you know when you have done it and how
long will that take? Maybe the answer instead is not to use deep rooted
plants or to build up mounds several feet high.

D


If the clay is treated with gypsum to make it more porous and if the top
foot of clay is tilled with new top soil, the interface between the top
soil and the clay subsoil will be blurred. Clay is often rich in
nutrients other than nitrogen. With careful use of fertilizer and with
infrequent but deep watering, plant roots will grow down below that
blurred interface into the clay.

My natural soil is heavy adobe clay. What I have suggested here is
based on my experience, especially my use of gypsum. Every year, I use
at least 50 pounds (23 kg) of gypsum in my garden; some years, I use 150
pounds (70 kg). Other than the obstructions caused by tree roots, I can
dig the soil quite easily; and my plants -- all perennials, shrubs, and
trees -- seem to thrive.

No, I do not have a large garden. My total lot is slightly less than
0.25 acre (0.1 hectare), including the footprint of my house and the
extreme slope that I describe at
http://www.rossde.com/garden/garden_back.html#hill.

--
David E. Ross
Climate: California Mediterranean, see
http://www.rossde.com/garden/climate.html
Gardening diary at http://www.rossde.com/garden/diary

In article ,
"David Hare-Scott" wrote:

David E. Ross wrote:
On 8/8/12 2:02 PM, mdemetri2 wrote:
Hi, I have been 4 years in my current home, and the back garden
pretty much each year needs some new plants and shrubs. Although I
admit we have in the past bought what looks nice and arent
necessarily suited for our east facing heavy clay moisture retaining
soil.

Firstly, I have over the last 2 months or so being contemplating
removing the soil/clay from our flower bed about a foot or so and
replacing with new soil mixed in with sand but adding more depth - so
allowing for a total of 15 inches of decent soil to replace the harsh
stuff we have now. Lots of digging out and replacing.....good idea?

What you propose will create an interface between top soil and
subsoil. Many plant roots will not cross that interface.


OK but it is a flower garden this may not be a problem.

D

With my grey clay and rock soil, I fond a marked improvement adding
organic material (5%), and sand (30%). Till that in, and then grow rye,
or buckwheat as a cover crop. I tilled once, have kept it mulched, and
when I pull up plants, most of the root system follows (the soil is very
friable now, and full of worms). I only grew those cover crops once. If
you grow annuals, mulch during the off season.

--
Welcome to the New America.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA736oK9FPg
or
E Pluribus Unum
Green Party Nominee Jill Stein & Running Mate, Cheri Honkala
http://www.democracynow.org/2012/7/13/green_party_nominee_jill_stein_running

"David E. Ross" wrote in message
If the clay is treated with gypsum to make it more porous and if the top
foot of clay is tilled with new top soil, the interface between the top
soil and the clay subsoil will be blurred. Clay is often rich in
nutrients other than nitrogen. With careful use of fertilizer and with
infrequent but deep watering, plant roots will grow down below that
blurred interface into the clay.

Given the amount of rain the UK has had over the past summer, watering is
probably not really needed. In fact it's possible that this area could end
up as I suggested - like a bog garden.

On 10/08/2012 00:27, David Hare-Scott wrote:
Kay Lancaster wrote:
Treat clay soils with respect... they're difficult to grow on.

yes indeed.

D

A commonly held and vastly mistaken view, IMHO. Difficult to work
maybe. But they are not difficult to grow on at all, if you keep to a
couple of simple rules. Firstly, never try to plant anything when they
are soaking wet. Secondly, never try to plant anything when they are
bone dry. Clay is far more suited to growing many plants than sandy
soil; even those naturally found in sandy environments will often more
than just tolerate clay. I have grown heathers without problem, and
grown and fruited blueberries on clay (pH 6 - 6.5). I have even been
able to move plants which are said to really dislike being moved because
a great lump of clay sticks to the roots, and, to all intents and
purposes, the roots really haven't been disturbed at all. Try that with
sandy or even "highly desirable" loamy soil. The one plant I have given
up with on clay soil is grass. Where it is constantly wet, a lawn
simply ends up a mess, often with more moss than grass. The previous
owner of the house I moved in to had so much trouble he installed land
drains, but even those couldn't make a meaningful difference and in the
end I had the lawn removed (no great loss as I can't stand lawns anyway).

I live in the Sussex weald, and have been gardening on clay for over 25
years. And, believe me, Sussex clay is real clay. I have about 10
inches of claggy "soil" over a solid clay subsoil (solid with ironstone
lumps, that is. Even a pickaxe fails to penetrate some parts. and I have
to resort to a hammer drill if I want a deep hole). The most difficult
thing about gardening on clay is digging the damn stuff; it is /very/
hard work. It even sticks to stainless steel spades with a vengeance.
And when dry, don't even bother with a hammer drill - it's not worth the
effort. Wait until it's workable again.

But when it grows stuff, it is brilliant. It holds moisture; it holds
nutrients; it anchors. It tends to help withstand frosts much better
than lighter soils.

--

Jeff

On 10/08/2012 00:27, David Hare-Scott wrote:
Kay Lancaster wrote:
Treat clay soils with respect... they're difficult to grow on.

yes indeed.

D

A commonly held and vastly mistaken view, IMHO. Difficult to work
maybe. But they are not difficult to grow on at all, if you keep to a
couple of simple rules. Firstly, never try to plant anything when they

I, too, have been growing on clay for about 40 years now... first the clay
subsoil that was all the builders left when they stripped the top soil
and sold it at my childhood home in Iowa, and now out here in Oregon --
both yellow clays, though the Oregon clay is calcium poor, rocky and
nearly free of worms (there are no native worms out here), so it
compacts easily and often requires mechanical aeration-- the Iowa soil
did not require much mechanical aeration and was calcium rich.

I still say it's a difficult soil to learn to grow on. It's hard to
work, and as one who was late to learn about shovel polishing of holes,
it can be unsuccessful just due to hole-digging technique. In fact,
the experience of trying to garden in my childhood home had really pushed
me away from the idea of ever trying to garden. It wasn't until I moved
to an area with a lovely, deep prairie topsoil that gardening became fun.
There, I could stand barefoot on bare soil and wiggle my feet a bit and
dig myself in ankle deep, the soil was that friable and loose. Stick a plant
in the ground and it grew.

But clay presents difficulties to most gardeners that a more balanced soil
does not... especially in the absence of good soil aeration. It can be
particularly tricky because of its cationic exchange properties... it
serves as an excellent buffer until it buffers no more.

Though clay holds soil moisture well, it's often not as available to the
plants as water in sandy soils, e.g.: http://ag.arizona.edu/turf/tips1095.html
which is a special problem in drought. And in comparing plant hardiness
in the soils in Iowa (USDA zone 5), I saw no real difference in frost
protection in clay vs. an organic loam: slope had a much larger effect.

David is, I believe, gardening on arid land clay in S. California;
a friend put her lawn in the front of the house in with (literally) pick and
shovel. When I lived there, my veggies were grown in raised beds to avoid
the salinized clay my house was built on (a failed orange grove).

Kay