Help please to indentify tree and pruning
 

Hello, am new to this forum. My hubby and I have just moved to a new house and are unsure about this tree in our garden.

Initially I thought it may have been Elder, but now not so sure.




I was horrified to find a huge branch had come down and was almost on the ground. I have tied it up but feel it will be too heavy to keep back. I'm afraid to cut it off without damaging the tree.

I doubt whether it has been pruned at all for some time.

Any advice would be appreciated, thanks

Aberdeen

The green berries are grapes, as I hope you realise, they have specific pruning requirements, but I guess you are not asking about those. The white berries are I presume what you are asking about. They something in the Sorbus family, closely related to a rowan. Sorbus with white berries are often S fruticosa or S cashmeriana, but there are other possibilities. But knowing it is a sorbus fairly similar to a rowan is probably enough for you.

You don't normally prune them very much except if you need to reduce it or repair damage. Prune it when dormant in the winter, don't reduce it too much at once, try to keep it balanced, would seem to be sensible.

Sorry, I realise I'm wrong, I've spotted the leaves now. It's a cotoneaster. Cotoneaster can be hacked back quite ruthlessly whenver you want and are practically unkillable.

Thank you echinosum.

Actually stupidly I didn't think of it as a grapevine!!!

It's so heavy at the moment with thick woody branches, one which has all but collapsed.

Would be grateful for advice on pruning back??

Thank you for the advice on the Cotoneaster, that sounds easier to handle.

Grapevines need (i) structural formation and (ii) annual systematic pruning.

Overview - you need to establish a core network of main branches, which you should in general support on wires or other supports. This should be fairly simple. One central stem with two or three branches on each side supported on 2 or 3 wires would be a very basic formation. There are also systems with 2 main stems and parallel wires. Having formed this basic structure, you then prune all of the new growth right back to the basic structure in the dormant season, say around Feb, each year, though being careful not to damage the incipient buds at the joints. New shoots readily form from these joints in the old wood.

However you probably don't have a good basic structure at the moment. It is important not to cut any of the thick woody branches during the growing season, as it can result in weeping. So what you do is, while the green stems are reasonably pliable in the growing season, is choose some vigorous shoots that you are going to make your main branches, and train them along wires, tying them in. You may even be able to rearrange and select few now, though they get a bit stiff later in the season and may break if you arent' gentle. Then having chosen your structure, wait till winter, when its fully dormant, and cut everything else off. If you have some bits missing, or its not quite right, you can train some more shoots where you want the next season, much easier to tie them where you want to go while they are soft in early summer, and then keep those rather than cut them back.

Then for good production and not collapsing under its own weight, you probably need to do a bit of summer pruning. You can always cut through new green shoots in the summer without risk of bleeding. Since grapes are only borne on about the first 2 or 3 nodes of any new shoot coming out of the old wood, you can always cut a new shoot back to about 4 to 5 nodes. Those new shoots may then also produce side shoots, which won't fruit at all, so you can cut those back to just one leaf. And then, in our cool climate, it is a good idea to cut off leaves that are hiding the grapes from the sun. Once you have seen how well the grapes have set after pollination, you may want to thin them out to a reasonable number as they are more likely to ripen if there aren't too many. Vines are often very vigorous so you can end up doing quite a bit of management to get a good crop. It's been a very bad year because of cool weather at the wrong times, and you'll be lucky to have ripe grapes.

Thank you again, that is really very useful.

No there doesn't seem to be any structure at all, it seems to laying one way from the main trunk and not really supported. Most of it it's shooting about 8ft into the air! it doesn't seem to have had any TLC for a long time.

You are right about the grapes too, abundant but very tiny!!

Help please to indentify tree and pruning
 

On 10/12/12 5:44 AM, echinosum wrote:
aberdeen;970688 Wrote:
Hello, am new to this forum. My hubby and I have just moved to a new
house and are unsure about this tree in our garden.

Initially I thought it may have been Elder, but now not so sure.
The green berries are grapes, as I hope you realise, they have specific
pruning requirements, but I guess you are not asking about those. The
white berries are I presume what you are asking about. They something
in the Sorbus family, closely related to a rowan. Sorbus with white
berries are often S fruticosa or S cashmeriana, but there are other
possibilities. But knowing it is a sorbus fairly similar to a rowan is
probably enough for you.

You don't normally prune them very much except if you need to reduce it
or repair damage. Prune it when dormant in the winter, don't reduce it
too much at once, try to keep it balanced, would seem to be sensible.

If the grape vine is growing on the tree, you have a problem. Grape
vines can become very heavy to the extent of breaking the tree. From
your photo, I believe the grape vine is quite mature and thus quite heavy.

--
David E. Ross
Climate: California Mediterranean, see
http://www.rossde.com/garden/climate.html
Gardening diary at http://www.rossde.com/garden/diary

David, thanks I think you may be right. The vines don't seem to be spread out in any logical formation. Just hanging heavily from thick woody stems diect from the main trunk.

I would think that the only way to stop the lower branches collapsing would be to cut back to the wood, then I would be afraid that would damage it.

The other vines heading up will soon be hanging into our neighbours garden. We will really need to cut them back, and again not sure how much to take off??

Help please to indentify tree and pruning
 

On 10/13/12 12:40 AM, aberdeen wrote:
'David E. Ross[_2_ Wrote:
;970715']On 10/12/12 5:44 AM, echinosum wrote:-
aberdeen;970688 Wrote: -
Hello, am new to this forum. My hubby and I have just moved to a new
house and are unsure about this tree in our garden.

Initially I thought it may have been Elder, but now not so sure.-
The green berries are grapes, as I hope you realise, they have
specific
pruning requirements, but I guess you are not asking about those. The
white berries are I presume what you are asking about. They something
in the Sorbus family, closely related to a rowan. Sorbus with white
berries are often S fruticosa or S cashmeriana, but there are other
possibilities. But knowing it is a sorbus fairly similar to a rowan is
probably enough for you.

You don't normally prune them very much except if you need to reduce
it
or repair damage. Prune it when dormant in the winter, don't reduce
it
too much at once, try to keep it balanced, would seem to be sensible.-

If the grape vine is growing on the tree, you have a problem. Grape
vines can become very heavy to the extent of breaking the tree. From
your photo, I believe the grape vine is quite mature and thus quite
heavy.


David, thanks I think you may be right. The vines don't seem to be
spread out in any logical formation. Just hanging heavily from thick
woody stems diect from the main trunk.

I would think that the only way to stop the lower branches collapsing
would be to cut back to the wood, then I would be afraid that would
damage it.

The other vines heading up will soon be hanging into our neighbours
garden. We will really need to cut them back, and again not sure how
much to take off??

If you want to keep the grape vine, you can still prune it severely.
You can even cut it about 3 ft (0.9 m) from the ground in mid-winter.
That will stop it from fruiting for about 2-3 years, but it will allow
you to train the new growth onto a proper support.

My grapes use steel pipes and wire rope for their support. See my
http://www.rossde.com/garden/garden_grapes.html. If you follow this
same arrangement, the pipes and wire should preferably run north-south
so that the sun shines equally on both sides. Unfortunately, I had to
run mine east-west because of the steep slope on which my vines grow.
One vine produced about 5 gallons of grapes this year.

--
David E. Ross
Climate: California Mediterranean, see
http://www.rossde.com/garden/climate.html
Gardening diary at http://www.rossde.com/garden/diary

Help please to indentify tree and pruning
 

"aberdeen" wrote in message
...

. . . I would think that the only way to stop the lower branches
collapsing
would be to cut back to the wood, then I would be afraid that would
damage it.

This is done by making several cuts (starting farthest from the
trunk.) This way you progressively reduce the weight pulling
at the original split, which reduces chances of stripping bark from
the trunk which you wish to keep. Leave the last stub one foot
longer than your long-term plan. When the plant has completely
healed, you can cut off the extra foot for cosmetic purposes.

(We assume you know the basic pruning cuts:
A = When shears can do the job at a single bite, do it.
B = When you must use a saw, first make a small
undercut below, to prevent stripping bark when the
branch falls, then your main cut across the top.

(The shape of the leaf in your elegant photo should help in
identify the species.)

--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)

Thank you Don

I think we will try the shears first.

I apolosise to all that posted for the size of the photo, I was unfortunately unable to edit.

Thanks again David!