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tom-tato?
On Tue, 06 Jan 2015 17:00:26 -0800, Todd wrote:
Hi All, You knew this was going to happen eventually. A tomato plant grafted unto a potato plant. Both are Solanaceae (nightshade) and probably were the same plant years and years ago. http://www.foxnews.com/science/2015/...hup-and-fries/ What I don't understand is how the plant would have enough power left in it to grow both potatoes and tomatoes. Must be the richest soil the plant could handle without burning the plant! Will wonders ever cease! -T Actually this has been done for years (no idea how successfully). Your favorite search engine can find many how-tos. Only thing slightly new is someone trying to commercialize the grafted plant. |
tom-tato?
On 1/8/2015 3:06 PM, Frank Miles wrote:
On Tue, 06 Jan 2015 17:00:26 -0800, Todd wrote: Hi All, You knew this was going to happen eventually. A tomato plant grafted unto a potato plant. Both are Solanaceae (nightshade) and probably were the same plant years and years ago. http://www.foxnews.com/science/2015/...hup-and-fries/ What I don't understand is how the plant would have enough power left in it to grow both potatoes and tomatoes. Must be the richest soil the plant could handle without burning the plant! Will wonders ever cease! -T Actually this has been done for years (no idea how successfully). Your favorite search engine can find many how-tos. Only thing slightly new is someone trying to commercialize the grafted plant. Actually they have been on the market for years. Some of the seed catalogs (the kind that you always get on or near January 1st) used to sell them as kits. IIRC they sent you a tomato plant or seed and a potato with instructions to split the potato, insert the tomato plant or seed in the potato and then plant the whole unit. I imagine that the success rate was quite low. |
tom-tato?
Once upon a time on usenet Frank Miles wrote:
On Tue, 06 Jan 2015 17:00:26 -0800, Todd wrote: Hi All, You knew this was going to happen eventually. A tomato plant grafted unto a potato plant. Both are Solanaceae (nightshade) and probably were the same plant years and years ago. http://www.foxnews.com/science/2015/...hup-and-fries/ What I don't understand is how the plant would have enough power left in it to grow both potatoes and tomatoes. Must be the richest soil the plant could handle without burning the plant! Will wonders ever cease! -T Actually this has been done for years (no idea how successfully). Your favorite search engine can find many how-tos. Only thing slightly new is someone trying to commercialize the grafted plant. They've been available in garden centres here in New Zealand for the last few years at least. They're more of a gimick than a vaild food production method I think. -- Shaun. "Humans will have advanced a long, long, way when religious belief has a cozy little classification in the DSM." David Melville (in r.a.s.f1) |
tom-tato?
On 01/11/2015 05:56 PM, ~misfit~ wrote:
Once upon a time on usenet Frank Miles wrote: On Tue, 06 Jan 2015 17:00:26 -0800, Todd wrote: Hi All, You knew this was going to happen eventually. A tomato plant grafted unto a potato plant. Both are Solanaceae (nightshade) and probably were the same plant years and years ago. http://www.foxnews.com/science/2015/...hup-and-fries/ What I don't understand is how the plant would have enough power left in it to grow both potatoes and tomatoes. Must be the richest soil the plant could handle without burning the plant! Will wonders ever cease! -T Actually this has been done for years (no idea how successfully). Your favorite search engine can find many how-tos. Only thing slightly new is someone trying to commercialize the grafted plant. They've been available in garden centres here in New Zealand for the last few years at least. They're more of a gimick than a vaild food production method I think. What gets me the amount of power the plant would have to produce to create both large fruit and tubers at the same time. |
tom-tato?
Todd wrote:
What I don't understand is how the plant would have enough power left in it to grow both potatoes and tomatoes. Must be the richest soil the plant could handle without burning the plant! When kindergartners are taught to plant beans with just blotting paper and water even five year olds quickly learn that once germinatiom occurs (in darkness) plants receive most of their growth energy from sunlight. Plants will thrive and fruit in the poorest soil given sufficient water and sunlight. Left to their own devices plants set only enough fruit to reproduce. Using fertilzers and other agri techniques is only to increase yield in less time... actually selective hand harvesting will increase yield better than fertilizing. Commercial growers fertilize because that costs less than constant labor. As a home grower I don't use any feretilizers but all else equal (water and sunlight) I selectively harvest constantly and end up with a larger/better crop than had I just fertilized... easy to prove by planting several tomato plants and fertilizing half and selectively harvesting the other half while adding no fertilizer... constant selective harvesting ensures a large less seedy crop... I'd much rather an abundance of smaller veggies than a few giant seedy specimens Most home gardeners over fertilize and over water, they do more harm than good. More and more produce is being produced hydroponically with no soil. |
tom-tato?
On Sun, 11 Jan 2015 19:09:47 -0800, Todd wrote:
On 01/11/2015 05:56 PM, ~misfit~ wrote: Once upon a time on usenet Frank Miles wrote: On Tue, 06 Jan 2015 17:00:26 -0800, Todd wrote: Hi All, You knew this was going to happen eventually. A tomato plant grafted unto a potato plant. Both are Solanaceae (nightshade) and probably were the same plant years and years ago. http://www.foxnews.com/science/2015/...hup-and-fries/ What I don't understand is how the plant would have enough power left in it to grow both potatoes and tomatoes. Must be the richest soil the plant could handle without burning the plant! Will wonders ever cease! -T Actually this has been done for years (no idea how successfully). Your favorite search engine can find many how-tos. Only thing slightly new is someone trying to commercialize the grafted plant. They've been available in garden centres here in New Zealand for the last few years at least. They're more of a gimick than a vaild food production method I think. What gets me the amount of power the plant would have to produce to create both large fruit and tubers at the same time. Size does not equal quality... I don't want humongous seedy flavorless tomatoes and large starchy/mealy spuds. |
tom-tato?
Brooklyn1 wrote:
Todd wrote: What I don't understand is how the plant would have enough power left in it to grow both potatoes and tomatoes. Must be the richest soil the plant could handle without burning the plant! When kindergartners are taught to plant beans with just blotting paper and water even five year olds quickly learn that once germinatiom occurs (in darkness) plants receive most of their growth energy from sunlight. Plants will thrive and fruit in the poorest soil given sufficient water and sunlight. Left to their own devices plants set only enough fruit to reproduce. Using fertilzers and other agri techniques is only to increase yield in less time... actually selective hand harvesting will increase yield better than fertilizing. Commercial growers fertilize because that costs less than constant labor. As a home grower I don't use any feretilizers but all else equal (water and sunlight) I selectively harvest constantly and end up with a larger/better crop than had I just fertilized... easy to prove by planting several tomato plants and fertilizing half and selectively harvesting the other half while adding no fertilizer... constant selective harvesting ensures a large less seedy crop... I'd much rather an abundance of smaller veggies than a few giant seedy specimens Most home gardeners over fertilize and over water, they do more harm than good. More and more produce is being produced hydroponically with no soil. While it is true that much fertilisation of plants is ill advised, most plants will NOT thrive in the poorest soil with only sunlight and water. Heavy feeders exhaust the minerals in soil quickly and the rest more slowly and unless they are replaced your crop will get smaller and your plants weaker year after year. Farmers may well try to get crops to market quickly but they are also interested in yield and that is the primary reason for the application of fertiliser in agriculture. We might talk about whether the large scale application of synthetic fertiliser is the best way to get the result in the long term but to say that the present world could be fed without some kind of fertiliser applied to cropland is just daft. If you don't plant annuals you might imagine that your trees, shrubs and grass are indicative of cropping but it isn't so. Note that we are talking about crops here, where you take away large amounts of organic material regularly, you can get systems that are approximately closed regarding minerals (eg an undisturbed natural forest) that don't need fertiliser applied by humans to but that isn't cropping. But perhaps things are different in your part of the world, the Breatharian spaceship must be right over your plot. Do you still eat three meals a day? -- David - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - A better world requires a daily struggle against those who would mislead us. |
tom-tato?
On 01/12/2015 07:20 PM, David Hare-Scott wrote:
Brooklyn1 wrote: Todd wrote: What I don't understand is how the plant would have enough power left in it to grow both potatoes and tomatoes. Must be the richest soil the plant could handle without burning the plant! When kindergartners are taught to plant beans with just blotting paper and water even five year olds quickly learn that once germinatiom occurs (in darkness) plants receive most of their growth energy from sunlight. Plants will thrive and fruit in the poorest soil given sufficient water and sunlight. Left to their own devices plants set only enough fruit to reproduce. Using fertilzers and other agri techniques is only to increase yield in less time... actually selective hand harvesting will increase yield better than fertilizing. Commercial growers fertilize because that costs less than constant labor. As a home grower I don't use any feretilizers but all else equal (water and sunlight) I selectively harvest constantly and end up with a larger/better crop than had I just fertilized... easy to prove by planting several tomato plants and fertilizing half and selectively harvesting the other half while adding no fertilizer... constant selective harvesting ensures a large less seedy crop... I'd much rather an abundance of smaller veggies than a few giant seedy specimens Most home gardeners over fertilize and over water, they do more harm than good. More and more produce is being produced hydroponically with no soil. While it is true that much fertilisation of plants is ill advised, most plants will NOT thrive in the poorest soil with only sunlight and water. Heavy feeders exhaust the minerals in soil quickly and the rest more slowly and unless they are replaced your crop will get smaller and your plants weaker year after year. Farmers may well try to get crops to market quickly but they are also interested in yield and that is the primary reason for the application of fertiliser in agriculture. We might talk about whether the large scale application of synthetic fertiliser is the best way to get the result in the long term but to say that the present world could be fed without some kind of fertiliser applied to cropland is just daft. If you don't plant annuals you might imagine that your trees, shrubs and grass are indicative of cropping but it isn't so. Note that we are talking about crops here, where you take away large amounts of organic material regularly, you can get systems that are approximately closed regarding minerals (eg an undisturbed natural forest) that don't need fertiliser applied by humans to but that isn't cropping. But perhaps things are different in your part of the world, the Breatharian spaceship must be right over your plot. Do you still eat three meals a day? Hi David and Brooklyn1, My soil is "decomposed sandstone". Like Decomposed granite (also called DG), only way uglier. Even the weeds have a hard time growing in it. I would probably have better luck trying to grow things with soil from the moon. If you read my running whine about how few zucchinis I got off my plants, my research shows it is all the fault of the soil. The way I look at it is the the same way I look at cooking. You can make good ingredients taste bad, but you can't make bad ingredients taste good. So it ALL starts with the soil. But, as with anything, the poison is in the dosage. I suppose if you had good soil to start with, you could really muck it up by over fertilizing, especially if you used conventional fertilizers instead of organic one. The successful home gardens out here are all raided beds with top soil imported from the local compost place. (I ask every customer I have that gardens how they do it.) My plans to convert my back yard to to raised beds came to a screeching halt with this stinking recession. One lady plows under goat skat (polite farmer talk for animal poop). She has to give away produce. I remember Songbird wonderful advice about just go straight to the ground and skip the raised beds -- get a lot more space. And she really struck a cord. But, no one is successful with that out here due to the decomposed sandstone. If I were to do my whole back yard, the cost of importing good topsoil would be greater than the raised beds. I am rambling. -T My garlic seems to love this cold weather. |
tom-tato?
Todd wrote:
My soil is "decomposed sandstone". Like Decomposed granite (also called DG), only way uglier. Even the weeds have a hard time growing in it. I would probably have better luck trying to grow things with soil from the moon. It would help to know your location, but it sounds more like your soil drains too quickly, like trying to grow crops in beach sand... adding fertilizer won't help if it just washes away. You need to amend your soil with organic matter and some sort of inorganic water retension material. It would definitely help to have several inches of good quality topsoil added. Most plant nurseries carry a variety of amendments and can advise for your area: http://www.ext.colostate.edu/pubs/garden/07235.html http://www.technogreencorp.com/water...t_aquafeed.htm http://www.geltechsolutions.com/soil...ural-uses.aspx |
tom-tato?
Todd wrote:
.... it's winter, i have time, long post ahead... : ) I remember Songbird wonderful advice about just go straight to the ground and skip the raised beds -- get a lot more space. And she really struck a cord. it's better to not make assumptions about gender on the net when you don't know for sure. the use of "they" in that case would be more appropriate (FTR i am male if that makes you feel better). But, no one is successful with that out here due to the decomposed sandstone. If I were to do my whole back yard, the cost of importing good topsoil would be greater than the raised beds. what is your usual annual rainfall? are there high winds very often? sunshine, freeze thaws, etc? is your primary source of water via irrigation? bringing in topsoil can be a short term solution, but i'd hope that you've figured out your water and wind flows and reshaped appropriately before doing that. it makes no sense to bring in stuff that will wash or blow away. with a limited budget you can get reasonable results by adding some clay (3 - 5 percent) and using whatever organic weed seed free materials you can scrounge (shredded cardboard boxes can work just fine for starters -- use those that are plain as possible with the less printed on them the better or only black ink printing). and the garden will likely do much better if you don't scatter resources widely and thinly. pick a space you will use the most and work on improving and understand that process first. each year you should have an improving soil profile as more organic materials break down and get recycled. always have something growing even if it will be turned under later (peas, beans, soybeans, radishes, buckwheat, turnips, winter wheat, oats, barley, beets... many seeds are available in bulk from a farm supply store or a grain elevator for not that much money). around the edges grow deeper mining plants like alfalfa to be used as a cover crop, source of trace nutrients and mulch when you chop them back (they may need a few years to get established). sometimes it may be good to plant some seeds in very deep and narrow tubes and let them grow where you can make sure they are kept moist before planting them out. depends upon your conditions and if you have a rainy season, if you can irrigate during dry spells, etc. with alfalfa having a deep tap root established in the second and third year it can then usually survive some of the dryer spells. for larger areas practice water retaining strategies as they also retain any topsoil you may be forming elsewheres. into and around these features you can plant your other organic material producers (native adapted shrubs, trees, or anything else you can find to grow that will survive being trimmed back once in a while, your larger sprawling garden plants are often better off kept away from the regular gardens anyways as they tend to take over if given a chance). use those trimmings and plant remains as garden mulches or compost material sources and to keep the soil covered as much as possible. hedges for wind breaks are also very important for arid climate growing. never export organic materials (via wind, water or harvest) if you can help it, grow as much as you can and chop it to keep the soil organic content high enough to help keep the soil moist. all paper products that arrive here don't leave (unless they are the plastic coated types which i don't recycle) they become worm food and then garden food once processed. these may upset some folks: fresh road kill is a near perfect addition to a garden (avoid species which might be rabid or carrying other problematic diseases), compost it or bury it deeply so that the critters and your planting won't disturb it and within a few years it's gold. of course human manure composting will help increase soil nutrients too. if your family is healthy and doesn't use hormones or chemotherapeutics then composted poo/pee is a valuable resource. hard to get people to accept it, but there is no reason to not use such a valuable resource if you can learn to do it safely (the humanure handbook is freely available on-line). it just freaks out people though so most gardeners won't do it (but they will use composted cow manure from sources they know much less about than their own family, so go figure...). if you build in a long enough cycle there is no problem from disease organisms and if you are very paranoid you can even use it as a subsoil amendment (buried deeply again) and that will cover all remaining issues. learning about composting and rotting in general is useful anyways. using worms to process any vegetable wastes, bone grinding, egg shells, how to scrounge materials, asking around for finding unused fruit trees and other gleanings, many ways of getting more organic materials if you have the time or inclination. here we will accept chunks of rotting wood, bark, sawdust, leaves, twigs (shredded or not) from friends who do firewood cutting. we don't have termites so there is no problem from putting these around and letting them get broken down by fungi, ants, worms, beetles, etc. organic produce stores, butcher, farm stands, neighbors, ... the list is pretty much endless once you start looking and asking around. oh, i've left out the animal angle. the role that animals can play in restoring topsoil is worth a book in itself. we don't go beyond worm and soil community type critters here as Ma cannot tolerate animals of any kind, but i would get a lot of use out of a small goat and a few quail. it's often more a matter of what you are willing to do. i try to keep it as simple as possible here. stopping at the worm level is a very easy system and doesn't require a whole lot of extra efforts on my part. if i spend more than an hour a month on worm stuff it is because i'm goofing around and have the time. in the winter i have plenty of time. for some fun reading you can check out the case studies at: http://www.soilsforlife.org.au/case-studies.html for ideas of how to deal with degraded or barren land. there are many other resources and ideas available out there. i tend to like those that consider the whole system and work at improving the diversity and basic groundwater holding capacity, but it is pretty important to also make sure that if you are doing groundwater holding stuff and there are hills involved to make sure your geology can support the extra water without slipping. songbird |
tom-tato?
On 01/18/2015 08:14 AM, Brooklyn1 wrote:
Todd wrote: My soil is "decomposed sandstone". Like Decomposed granite (also called DG), only way uglier. Even the weeds have a hard time growing in it. I would probably have better luck trying to grow things with soil from the moon. It would help to know your location, but it sounds more like your soil drains too quickly, like trying to grow crops in beach sand... adding fertilizer won't help if it just washes away. You need to amend your soil with organic matter and some sort of inorganic water retension material. It would definitely help to have several inches of good quality topsoil added. Most plant nurseries carry a variety of amendments and can advise for your area: http://www.ext.colostate.edu/pubs/garden/07235.html http://www.technogreencorp.com/water...t_aquafeed.htm http://www.geltechsolutions.com/soil...ural-uses.aspx Hi Brooklyn1, Actually water tends to run off it. We are the lake bed of the ancient Lake Lahontan. And my soil was graded 20 feet down from the surface when they put houses in (I work for the guy who did the grading). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Lahontan The map doesn't show its complete extent. Think clay amended with sand. And I do believe you are exactly right on the amendment. The local compost place has the perfect soil and compost, but it gets expensive and I really want to put the money towards the raided beds. I usually put 8 bugs of compost down on my tiny garden. Every year things get better. Two years ago, I got my first earth worms, which is a good sign. Everyone that I have asked that has used their soil and compost has had bumper crops. Last year, although I whined a lot about it, I got more Zukes in one week that I had got in all the previous years. I still have to figure out what that stupid white powder is that gets all over my zukes towards the end of the season and kills them. I am NOT sky watering them. Shake the leaves and get a white dust storm. -T |
tom-tato?
On 01/18/2015 01:16 PM, songbird wrote:
Todd wrote: ... it's winter, i have time, long post ahead... : ) I remember Songbird wonderful advice about just go straight to the ground and skip the raised beds -- get a lot more space. And she really struck a cord. it's better to not make assumptions about gender on the net when you don't know for sure. the use of "they" in that case would be more appropriate (FTR i am male if that makes you feel better). Oops. My Bad. Songbird sounded like a girl. I will think big gnarly songbird next time. (I thought Higgs was the wrong gender for the longest time too.) But, no one is successful with that out here due to the decomposed sandstone. If I were to do my whole back yard, the cost of importing good topsoil would be greater than the raised beds. what is your usual annual rainfall? 6 inches are there high winds Yes, up to hurricane category 1 (95 MPH +) very often? Cat 1, about once a year. 35 to 55 MPH about once a month. 5 to 25, twice a week Our last big one blew leaves up again chain link fences and then blew the fences over. It was fun to walk in, except for the dirt in your eyes. The wind is hell on fences. sunshine, freeze thaws, etc? Freezes up to the end of May. We are told not to transplant outside till the second week of June. I put my tomatoes pots out in the day and bring then into the garage at night before I transplant them. October is usually our first freeze. (Man zukes look pathetic after they freeze.) We are the High Sierra Desert Plato is your primary source of water via irrigation? Yes. Deep well water from an aquifer that comes out of Lake Tahoe (about 200,000 years ago). It is very good tasting. And, it has a small calcium content. Sometimes there is chlorine in the water, most not though. bringing in topsoil can be a short term solution, but i'd hope that you've figured out your water and wind flows and reshaped appropriately before doing that. it makes no sense to bring in stuff that will wash or blow away. That is why I was looking at raised beds. Maybe about a foot and a half high with the dirt only going up about a foot. Spritz them with water when a big wind comes up. with a limited budget you can get reasonable results by adding some clay (3 - 5 percent) and using whatever organic weed seed free materials you can scrounge (shredded cardboard boxes can work just fine for starters -- use those that are plain as possible with the less printed on them the better or only black ink printing). and the garden will likely do much better if you don't scatter resources widely and thinly. pick a space you will use the most and work on improving and understand that process first. each year you should have an improving soil profile as more organic materials break down and get recycled. always have something growing even if it will be turned under later Sounds like a job for Garlic. I have about 15 of them going now that seems to adore this cold weather. Fresh garlic from the garden is truly a delicacy! Of course everything from your garden tastes better. (I presume you have heard my theory about why folks don't eat or like produce.) Well, except turnips: YUK! (peas, beans, soybeans, radishes, buckwheat, turnips, winter wheat, oats, barley, beets... many seeds are available in bulk from a farm supply store or a grain elevator for not that much money). I am always battling grass, which I turn over twice in the winter and cover up with compost in the spring, right before planting around the edges grow deeper mining plants like alfalfa to be used as a cover crop, source of trace nutrients and mulch when you chop them back (they may need a few years to get established). sometimes it may be good to plant some seeds in very deep and narrow tubes and let them grow where you can make sure they are kept moist before planting them out. depends upon your conditions and if you have a rainy season, if you can irrigate during dry spells, etc. with alfalfa having a deep tap root established in the second and third year it can then usually survive some of the dryer spells. I have been using purslane for that: hold the ground down in the wind and the moisture in. And I make salads out of it to die for. for larger areas practice water retaining strategies as they also retain any topsoil you may be forming elsewheres. into and around these features you can plant your other organic material producers (native adapted shrubs, trees, or anything else you can find to grow that will survive being trimmed back once in a while, your larger sprawling garden plants are often better off kept away from the regular gardens anyways as they tend to take over if given a chance). use those trimmings and plant remains as garden mulches or compost material sources and to keep the soil covered as much as possible. hedges for wind breaks are also very important for arid climate growing. I am afraid to plow my diseased zukes (white powder on them) for my tomatoes, for fear of all the diseases they get. But I have no such fear of grass. Good news! I am the only one that did not get those stinking squash bugs this year. I have had them in the past. never export organic materials (via wind, water or harvest) if you can help it, grow as much as you can and chop it to keep the soil organic content high enough to help keep the soil moist. all paper products that arrive here don't leave (unless they are the plastic coated types which i don't recycle) they become worm food and then garden food once processed. How about shopping paper bags. But, most of them have colored ink on them. these may upset some folks: fresh road kill is a near perfect addition to a garden (avoid species which might be rabid or carrying other problematic diseases), compost it or bury it deeply so that the critters and your planting won't disturb it and within a few years it's gold. How about carp? of course human manure composting will help increase soil nutrients too. if your family is healthy and doesn't use hormones or chemotherapeutics They breath it out all over you too. And if I am not mistaken, their success rate it nearly zero. then composted poo/pee is a valuable resource. hard to get people to accept it, but there is no reason to not use such a valuable resource if you can learn to do it safely (the humanure handbook is freely available on-line). it just freaks out people though so most gardeners won't do it (but they will use composted cow manure from sources they know much less about than their own family, so go figure...). if you build in a long enough cycle there is no problem from disease organisms and if you are very paranoid you can even use it as a subsoil amendment (buried deeply again) and that will cover all remaining issues. I would never be able to get the human poop past my wife. I have been offered goat poop by a friend. I had plenty of human poop under my house when my black line broke. Well, until the water removal people sucked it all out and put down lime. I have said this before, but without your ideas, long term space travel will be impossible, much less a colonies on the moon. Mars, we will have to bring EVERYTHING with us as the soil in soaked in sulfuric acid. learning about composting and rotting in general is useful anyways. using worms to process any vegetable wastes, bone grinding, egg shells, Should my (organic) chicken eggs shells be plowed under? how to scrounge materials, asking around for finding unused fruit trees and other gleanings, many ways of getting more organic materials if you have the time or inclination. here we will accept chunks of rotting wood, bark, sawdust, leaves, twigs (shredded or not) from friends who do firewood cutting. we don't have termites so there is no problem from putting these around and letting them get broken down by fungi, ants, worms, beetles, etc. organic produce stores, butcher, farm stands, neighbors, ... the list is pretty much endless once you start looking and asking around. oh, i've left out the animal angle. the role that animals can play in restoring topsoil is worth a book in itself. we don't go beyond worm and soil community type critters here as Ma cannot tolerate animals of any kind, but i would get a lot of use out of a small goat and a few quail. I have seen documentaries on this. You are dead on. it's often more a matter of what you are willing to do. i try to keep it as simple as possible here. stopping at the worm level is a very easy system and doesn't require a whole lot of extra efforts on my part. if i spend more than an hour a month on worm stuff it is because i'm goofing around and have the time. in the winter i have plenty of time. for some fun reading you can check out the case studies at: http://www.soilsforlife.org.au/case-studies.html Didn't look but will. My research confirms what you say. You must nurture the soil. Your plants can be no better than your soil. for ideas of how to deal with degraded or barren land. there are many other resources and ideas available out there. i tend to like those that consider the whole system and work at improving the diversity and basic groundwater holding capacity, but it is pretty important to also make sure that if you are doing groundwater holding stuff and there are hills involved to make sure your geology can support the extra water without slipping. Question: when I get around to drafting up my back yard (LibreCAD), I was intending to leave the bottoms of my raised beds open so water would not stagnate at the bottom. Your advice? Put some small rocks down at the bottom? Question: when I have been laying down compose, I just rake it over the top and water it in. Should I be turning over the soil? Or is on top fine? I am thinking of converting my tiny garden to a raised bed. I sure have put a lot of work into nurturing the soil. I am not liking the idea of covering it up. By the way, I am thinking of using Decomposed Granite (DG) as ground cover for the non-growing areas and my gazebo (have to get something that doesn't blow away). I like Ponderosa pine for the trees and will plant more. (Hey, what can I say, they smell nice! You have heard of Tree Huggers. Well, I am a tree smeller.) They seem to like growing around granite in the mountains and I think DG is pretty. My neighbor hauls the stuff and told me to let him know when I am ready. Any problems you can think of with DG? songbird Do you have any idea what that white powder is on my zukes towards the end of the season that is killing my plants? Sorry about the girl thing. Thank you for helping me with this! You are a Gold Mine of knowledge. -T |
tom-tato?
Todd wrote:
songbird wrote: Todd wrote: .... But, no one is successful with that out here due to the decomposed sandstone. If I were to do my whole back yard, the cost of importing good topsoil would be greater than the raised beds. what is your usual annual rainfall? 6 inches pretty arid climate. are there high winds Yes, up to hurricane category 1 (95 MPH +) arid climate and frequent winds means your wind breaks are very important. this helps cut down on evaporation losses and should be a part of your overall site design (along with considerations for fire control if your area is prone to fires as high winds and fires can be a real extreme hazard). very often? Cat 1, about once a year. 35 to 55 MPH about once a month. 5 to 25, twice a week Our last big one blew leaves up again chain link fences and then blew the fences over. It was fun to walk in, except for the dirt in your eyes. The wind is hell on fences. yep, that is a part of why growing wind breaks can be a bonus, whatever organic materials they can collect become humus in time. sunshine, freeze thaws, etc? Freezes up to the end of May. We are told not to transplant outside till the second week of June. I put my tomatoes pots out in the day and bring then into the garage at night before I transplant them. sounds like you have a similar start of the season to us. we don't put the delicate plants out until the last week of May. our first frosts can happen in mid-Sept, but sometimes can go later. October is usually our first freeze. (Man zukes look pathetic after they freeze.) We are the High Sierra Desert Plato is your primary source of water via irrigation? Yes. Deep well water from an aquifer that comes out of Lake Tahoe (about 200,000 years ago). It is very good tasting. And, it has a small calcium content. Sometimes there is chlorine in the water, most not though. so probably not inexpensive either in terms of infrastructure and energy to pump it around. bringing in topsoil can be a short term solution, but i'd hope that you've figured out your water and wind flows and reshaped appropriately before doing that. it makes no sense to bring in stuff that will wash or blow away. That is why I was looking at raised beds. Maybe about a foot and a half high with the dirt only going up about a foot. Spritz them with water when a big wind comes up. the surface of the soil should be mulched in your climate. you're losing a lot of water via evaporation and those winds. even if you have to cover it with a layer of cardboard with holes poked through it for the plants and nothing else that will help a great deal, but a layer of mulch on top of the soil is going to be more useful than about anything else you can do (other than wind breaks and a bit of clay). i would not use raised beds in an arid climate where you may have hot summers and wind. why expose your plants to more wind and higher temperatures? you'll lose your water faster and the worms will either die off from getting too hot or they'll dry out too much and go dormant or again, die off. thermal mass, water holding capacity... look up the surface area in a gram of clay and compare that to sand. when i say that adding a little clay will be a big help i'm not kidding. to me raised beds are useful only if you have accessibility issues and must have the added height to be able to garden (to me i'd rather crawl on the ground and i have as i consider it a nice place to explore, i have a nice pillow to sit on when i need to get that close to the ground and that pillow also saves the knees some wear). otherwise i consider them expensive, material intensive, more work and all those edges have to be kept up (weeded around or installed in such a way to prevent weed intrusion into the raised beds). if you took 1/4 of the money you'd spend on raised beds and put that towards some clay and added organic materials you'll be 3/4 ahead and have a larger and more productive space. with a limited budget you can get reasonable results by adding some clay (3 - 5 percent) and using whatever organic weed seed free materials you can scrounge (shredded cardboard boxes can work just fine for starters -- use those that are plain as possible with the less printed on them the better or only black ink printing). and the garden will likely do much better if you don't scatter resources widely and thinly. pick a space you will use the most and work on improving and understand that process first. each year you should have an improving soil profile as more organic materials break down and get recycled. always have something growing even if it will be turned under later Sounds like a job for Garlic. I have about 15 of them going now that seems to adore this cold weather. Fresh garlic from the garden is truly a delicacy! garlic takes time to finish and can be in the way of other plantings if you are doing a more traditional garden style of managed plots. it makes a better edge plant or something to put in odd spaces that you might not have plans to use for about a year (fall to mid-to-late-summer). the worms do love garlic remains when i add them to the worm bins. garlic roots, stems, husks, bits, all eventually get eaten up and turned into great stuff. they don't eat the living bulbs though, so i have to cut them up first. since i dry everything first the garlic bits get dried too. like carrots they rarely rot when they are drying. .... (peas, beans, soybeans, radishes, buckwheat, turnips, winter wheat, oats, barley, beets... many seeds are available in bulk from a farm supply store or a grain elevator for not that much money). I am always battling grass, which I turn over twice in the winter and cover up with compost in the spring, right before planting if you are removing it and not replacing it with a different plant you're wasting time and energy. in an arid climate you want your soil covered no matter what. a weed is just as good as any other plant if you are not using that space. clip it once in a while (before it goes to seed) and use those clippings in your gardens. free organic material. as you work on the site, there are places where you can remove the grass and replace it, but you always want to have a replacement plant going instead. when i convert a grassy area here the way i do it is to dig up the sod in chunks and turn it upside down and bury it deeply enough that the remaining roots won't be able to reach the surface again (or if they do there will be a barrier in place so that they cannot survive). sod like this is a very nutrient laden material. the worms will break it down as it rots. wonderful stuff. for burying depth here for most of our grass species that means about a foot and a half. we have a lot of clay which tends to help smother things well. in a sandy soil i'd probably go deeper or make sure there is a good cover to prevent regrowth. a layer of cardboard with mulch over it can do that in an arid climate and should last a year or two. by that time you've either killed off the grass buried that deeply or whatever does come up can be dug up again and dried out before composting it. actually, in an arid climate digging up the grass roots and exposing the sod to the sun for a few weeks will likely do in about any grass species i can think of. then you could compost it before using it in the gardens. around the edges grow deeper mining plants like alfalfa to be used as a cover crop, source of trace nutrients and mulch when you chop them back (they may need a few years to get established). sometimes it may be good to plant some seeds in very deep and narrow tubes and let them grow where you can make sure they are kept moist before planting them out. depends upon your conditions and if you have a rainy season, if you can irrigate during dry spells, etc. with alfalfa having a deep tap root established in the second and third year it can then usually survive some of the dryer spells. I have been using purslane for that: hold the ground down in the wind and the moisture in. And I make salads out of it to die for. yeah, that's a good cover, we have some here that wanders around. worms love it, good compost material. for larger areas practice water retaining strategies as they also retain any topsoil you may be forming elsewheres. into and around these features you can plant your other organic material producers (native adapted shrubs, trees, or anything else you can find to grow that will survive being trimmed back once in a while, your larger sprawling garden plants are often better off kept away from the regular gardens anyways as they tend to take over if given a chance). use those trimmings and plant remains as garden mulches or compost material sources and to keep the soil covered as much as possible. hedges for wind breaks are also very important for arid climate growing. I am afraid to plow my diseased zukes (white powder on them) for my tomatoes, for fear of all the diseases they get. But I have no such fear of grass. you don't need to bury them the same place you have a garden. you can keep a reserve area for burying things like this and over the years that will help improve that soil too. the soil critters can deal with fungi and fungal spores just as well as bacteria. in a few years you can shift areas and plant squash or other plants in there and they'll likely be ok. if powdery mildew is in the air it's not something you can always completely avoid. around here it's a late summer thing and by the time it shows up most of the plants are alreay past their most productive stages and are finishing up anyways. i don't spray any of it and all gets buried. haven't noticed it being worse or better based upon that, but seems to be more heat/weather related. Good news! I am the only one that did not get those stinking squash bugs this year. I have had them in the past. squash is about one of the favorite things we grow here. our crop last year wasn't too good. i didn't like how it was planted but my advice was ignored so ... next spring we'll be putting it in a different place. we'll see how that goes. never export organic materials (via wind, water or harvest) if you can help it, grow as much as you can and chop it to keep the soil organic content high enough to help keep the soil moist. all paper products that arrive here don't leave (unless they are the plastic coated types which i don't recycle) they become worm food and then garden food once processed. How about shopping paper bags. But, most of them have colored ink on them. any of the brown craft papers are usually ok if they have not been otherwise treated. they use that sort of paper for the leaf bags around here. these may upset some folks: fresh road kill is a near perfect addition to a garden (avoid species which might be rabid or carrying other problematic diseases), compost it or bury it deeply so that the critters and your planting won't disturb it and within a few years it's gold. How about carp? sure, why not? i used to bury the larger northern pikes caught under the rose garden. they were very healthy plants. :) of course human manure composting will help increase soil nutrients too. if your family is healthy and doesn't use hormones or chemotherapeutics They breath it out all over you too. And if I am not mistaken, their success rate it nearly zero. by hormones i was thinking birth control and the age related bone density or menopause types, but there might be others i'd not want to put into a garden. then composted poo/pee is a valuable resource. hard to get people to accept it, but there is no reason to not use such a valuable resource if you can learn to do it safely (the humanure handbook is freely available on-line). it just freaks out people though so most gardeners won't do it (but they will use composted cow manure from sources they know much less about than their own family, so go figure...). if you build in a long enough cycle there is no problem from disease organisms and if you are very paranoid you can even use it as a subsoil amendment (buried deeply again) and that will cover all remaining issues. I would never be able to get the human poop past my wife. yeah, i can't get it to go here either, but if i ever live alone and have a garden to work with then i'll start trying out various methods of using it. I have been offered goat poop by a friend. take as much of it as you can use. :) if they aren't feeding those goats bad stuff then you're into some really prime organic material. I had plenty of human poop under my house when my black line broke. Well, until the water removal people sucked it all out and put down lime. i actually wasn't sure that was you in that other group. I have said this before, but without your ideas, long term space travel will be impossible, much less a colonies on the moon. Mars, we will have to bring EVERYTHING with us as the soil in soaked in sulfuric acid. i thought Mars was iron oxides (Venus is acidic)? the real challenge right now is that we really do not know the minimal size of any recycling system that will work for the longer term. we have only one example that we know works and that is the earth and sadly it seems we're more bent on destroying large chunks of it before we really understand it. some smaller examples of enclosed systems have taught us some things, but they have not been really used well enough to answer these sort of questions. there have been some enclosed glass orb systems that have gone for many years but nothing with larger animals. until we have a clean long term energy source that is also reliable space exploration or any chances to have growing and large environments in space is going to be limited by proximity to the sun. that doesn't get us out of the isolated pickle we are in, but it at least does get some of us off planet and in my opinion that is a worthy start on the ways. learning about composting and rotting in general is useful anyways. using worms to process any vegetable wastes, bone grinding, egg shells, Should my (organic) chicken eggs shells be plowed under? if you don't have chickens to eat the shells then sure, i'd put them in the compost pile or the worm bins or bury them in the gardens. your soil may be fairly alkaline already, but if you keep adding organic matter then the egg shells will be a source of calcium for the plants and animals. how to scrounge materials, asking around for finding unused fruit trees and other gleanings, many ways of getting more organic materials if you have the time or inclination. here we will accept chunks of rotting wood, bark, sawdust, leaves, twigs (shredded or not) from friends who do firewood cutting. we don't have termites so there is no problem from putting these around and letting them get broken down by fungi, ants, worms, beetles, etc. organic produce stores, butcher, farm stands, neighbors, ... the list is pretty much endless once you start looking and asking around. oh, i've left out the animal angle. the role that animals can play in restoring topsoil is worth a book in itself. we don't go beyond worm and soil community type critters here as Ma cannot tolerate animals of any kind, but i would get a lot of use out of a small goat and a few quail. I have seen documentaries on this. You are dead on. overgrazing is a large part of the reason why most of the middle east is barren where it used to be able to support fields of grain. of course it did not help that the Romans came along and turned those areas into grain exporting regions, but that was only a part of that story. they are doing great work in learning how to restore such lands now, if enough people could be allowed to do it and not harrassed or killed by the radicals it could do much to feed the peoples who are there. it's often more a matter of what you are willing to do. i try to keep it as simple as possible here. stopping at the worm level is a very easy system and doesn't require a whole lot of extra efforts on my part. if i spend more than an hour a month on worm stuff it is because i'm goofing around and have the time. in the winter i have plenty of time. for some fun reading you can check out the case studies at: http://www.soilsforlife.org.au/case-studies.html Didn't look but will. My research confirms what you say. You must nurture the soil. Your plants can be no better than your soil. gotta have the other things too (sunlight and moisture). but yeah, the soil is your footing, treat it well or be wiped out. for ideas of how to deal with degraded or barren land. there are many other resources and ideas available out there. i tend to like those that consider the whole system and work at improving the diversity and basic groundwater holding capacity, but it is pretty important to also make sure that if you are doing groundwater holding stuff and there are hills involved to make sure your geology can support the extra water without slipping. Question: when I get around to drafting up my back yard (LibreCAD), I was intending to leave the bottoms of my raised beds open so water would not stagnate at the bottom. Your advice? Put some small rocks down at the bottom? you don't have that much water to worry about that often. containers should always have some drain holes, but those holes are ingress points for critters or weeds so they may need to be covered by metal mesh or some other hardy material so extra water can drain out. Question: when I have been laying down compose, I just rake it over the top and water it in. Should I be turning over the soil? Or is on top fine? your soil needs some organic material in it to help hold water. add some clay, add some of that goat manure and mix it with your surface soil, dampen it enough that it can rot for a few weeks, then any other extra organic materials you can scrounge (large flats of cardboard can be used as edges or to control that grass you talk about). plant through the holes and watch the moisture level so that it doesn't dry out near your seedlings. you only want to use as little water as possible in your climate. drip irrigation for some of your larger plants and desired bushes or trees might be needed until they are established. but basically you want most of your organic materials up on top so they hold what little water you have in the garden. a nice thick layer of mulch is good for arid climates. the worms will work at the bottom of it and gradually incorporate it into the soil. i much prefer for them to do the digging for me if possible, but for a first shot at a garden i will do some digging to bury organic materials to help jump start the system. I am thinking of converting my tiny garden to a raised bed. I sure have put a lot of work into nurturing the soil. I am not liking the idea of covering it up. i wouldn't as i've said above. extra expense and no real benefit when you can spend much less for what does count more. By the way, I am thinking of using Decomposed Granite (DG) as ground cover for the non-growing areas and my gazebo (have to get something that doesn't blow away). around the edges put down a layer of some weed barrier to keep the grasses from edging in down as deep as those grass root systems tend to grow. saves a lot of BS later. and a weed barrier underneath the DG to keep any randomly sprouting seeds from having an easy go of it. put the DG down deep enough to discourage easy seed germination too. we use a fairly thick layer of crushed limestone here and it keeps most of the weed seeds that blow in from ever sprouting. our biggest problems are intrusions from the sides if we haven't put down a good enough edge or the morning glory seeds. I like Ponderosa pine for the trees and will plant more. (Hey, what can I say, they smell nice! You have heard of Tree Huggers. Well, I am a tree smeller.) They seem to like growing around granite in the mountains and I think DG is pretty. My neighbor hauls the stuff and told me to let him know when I am ready. Any problems you can think of with DG? if you can get it for little cost you can use it to create water flow breaks that will slow down any run off and allow it to sink in instead. always want to decrease erosion and encourage water retention for arid landscapes. if you don't have anything growing this material will work as well as any other for holding topsoil in place until you can get something growing there instead. easier to move than larger rocks. Do you have any idea what that white powder is on my zukes towards the end of the season that is killing my plants? powdery mildew most likely. here it is a late summer disease that shows on plants that aren't resistant to it or those that are weakened or on the annuals which are in decline. Sorry about the girl thing. Thank you for helping me with this! You are a Gold Mine of knowledge. keep on reading and studying what you can and do what you can, learn from experiences and always keep eyes open to observe what is going on. if you get time to read a more layered approach try the basic permaculture books you can get from the library. any of the originals are worth a read. and much is available on-line too. i'm always looking for examples of restoration for degraded or difficult sites and they now have some good ones that you can see the results. i think the stuff that really got my interest was to start thinking in terms of flows, energy, wind, water, stacking functions, etc. keyline water retention strategies are amazing when you start studying what can be done to control erosion and spread water flows around and to restore compacted soils. there's really no end to what you can keep learning and studying. i'd rather do that than watch tv anytime. some people spend time in bars or churches, i spend most of mine reading and gardening. i'm not the smartest person here by far, i forget plant, animal, etc. species names about as fast as i learn them. but since i know that's not my strength i try to think of things in terms of systems and layers and that is where it fits well with permaculture or agroforestry or other land restoration techniques. overriding principles are always to keep it simple so that anyone can do it and to use as minimal inputs as possible so that you don't have to move so much stuff around or buy so much of what ends up becoming useless garbage. while i'm meandering: for even more facinating reads get into ants. they are amazing creatures (like worms but even more complicated in their diversity and distribution). almost as complicated as humans and have a large impact upon the world that most people rarely notice other than to think of how to poison them. songbird |
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On 01/19/2015 01:02 PM, songbird wrote:
i thought Mars was iron oxides (Venus is acidic)? Hi Songbird, Mars dirt has crazy high sulphuric content. You can't breath the air, you can touch the soil, colder than all get out, no magnetic field to protect from the solar winds, you can't come back (to the Earth) if you stay too long (low gravity and your bones), no trout. Can't see any reason why anyone would ever want to go there. Now I do believe that ever since the first human eye gazed on the first star in the heavens, that humanity was meant to go there. (It will be a red letter day when humanity develops trans-light drives.) And I don't think we have even the tiniest clue what microbes are required to keep soil alive (or when we get there) on a long trip. Or how to nurture those microbes. We take a lot for granted living on this planet. We should first have successful colonies on the moon before going to Mars. And the moon is protected somewhat by the Earth's magnetosphere. -T Did I mention no trout on Mars (or the moon for that matter). |
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Brooklyn1
Mon, 12 Jan 2015 14:19:49 GMT in rec.gardens, wrote: On Sun, 11 Jan 2015 19:09:47 -0800, Todd wrote: On 01/11/2015 05:56 PM, ~misfit~ wrote: Once upon a time on usenet Frank Miles wrote: On Tue, 06 Jan 2015 17:00:26 -0800, Todd wrote: Hi All, You knew this was going to happen eventually. A tomato plant grafted unto a potato plant. Both are Solanaceae (nightshade) and probably were the same plant years and years ago. http://www.foxnews.com/science/2015/...nt-that-grows- ketchup-and-fries/ What I don't understand is how the plant would have enough power left in it to grow both potatoes and tomatoes. Must be the richest soil the plant could handle without burning the plant! Will wonders ever cease! -T Actually this has been done for years (no idea how successfully). Your favorite search engine can find many how-tos. Only thing slightly new is someone trying to commercialize the grafted plant. They've been available in garden centres here in New Zealand for the last few years at least. They're more of a gimick than a vaild food production method I think. What gets me the amount of power the plant would have to produce to create both large fruit and tubers at the same time. Size does not equal quality... I don't want humongous seedy flavorless tomatoes and large starchy/mealy spuds. You're right about that. |
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Once upon a time on usenet Todd wrote:
On 01/11/2015 05:56 PM, ~misfit~ wrote: Once upon a time on usenet Frank Miles wrote: On Tue, 06 Jan 2015 17:00:26 -0800, Todd wrote: Hi All, You knew this was going to happen eventually. A tomato plant grafted unto a potato plant. Both are Solanaceae (nightshade) and probably were the same plant years and years ago. http://www.foxnews.com/science/2015/...hup-and-fries/ What I don't understand is how the plant would have enough power left in it to grow both potatoes and tomatoes. Must be the richest soil the plant could handle without burning the plant! Will wonders ever cease! -T Actually this has been done for years (no idea how successfully). Your favorite search engine can find many how-tos. Only thing slightly new is someone trying to commercialize the grafted plant. They've been available in garden centres here in New Zealand for the last few years at least. They're more of a gimick than a vaild food production method I think. What gets me the amount of power the plant would have to produce to create both large fruit and tubers at the same time. IIRC the advice given out by one supplier was to stack three old car tyres on top of each other and fill with soil / compost mix, insert a strong stake and grow in there. -- Shaun. "Humans will have advanced a long, long, way when religious belief has a cozy little classification in the DSM." David Melville (in r.a.s.f1) |
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Once upon a time on usenet songbird wrote:
[snipped] .... of course human manure composting will help increase soil nutrients too. if your family is healthy and doesn't use hormones or chemotherapeutics then composted poo/pee is a valuable resource. hard to get people to accept it, but there is no reason to not use such a valuable resource if you can learn to do it safely (the humanure handbook is freely available on-line). it just freaks out people though so most gardeners won't do it (but they will use composted cow manure from sources they know much less about than their own family, so go figure...). if you build in a long enough cycle there is no problem from disease organisms and if you are very paranoid you can even use it as a subsoil amendment (buried deeply again) and that will cover all remaining issues. The amount of nutrient in human manure is minimal compared with that in urine. I have been practicing 'micturition farming' for decades now and have had excellent results. It is very easy to do (especially when compared with the use of solid manure) and appeals to my sense of the cyclic nature of things and my abhorrence of waste in general. http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...ve-fertilizer/ I just keep a bucket next to the toilet and use it for urine, emptying it into a watering can and diluting with water at least 10:1 (often with used aquarium water for that added nutrient boost). The sooner it's used the better or the urea will degrade into ammonia and become less bio-available. People who know me are amazed at my horticultural successes but I don't often share my secret as people can have totally irrational opinions of certain things. -- Shaun. "Humans will have advanced a long, long, way when religious belief has a cozy little classification in the DSM." David Melville (in r.a.s.f1) |
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On Monday, January 26, 2015 at 7:15:28 PM UTC-8, ~misfit~ wrote:
Once upon a time on usenet Todd wrote: On 01/11/2015 05:56 PM, ~misfit~ wrote: Once upon a time on usenet Frank Miles wrote: On Tue, 06 Jan 2015 17:00:26 -0800, Todd wrote: Hi All, You knew this was going to happen eventually. A tomato plant grafted unto a potato plant. Both are Solanaceae (nightshade) and probably were the same plant years and years ago. http://www.foxnews.com/science/2015/...hup-and-fries/ What I don't understand is how the plant would have enough power left in it to grow both potatoes and tomatoes. Must be the richest soil the plant could handle without burning the plant! Will wonders ever cease! -T Actually this has been done for years (no idea how successfully). Your favorite search engine can find many how-tos. Only thing slightly new is someone trying to commercialize the grafted plant. They've been available in garden centres here in New Zealand for the last few years at least. They're more of a gimick than a vaild food production method I think. What gets me the amount of power the plant would have to produce to create both large fruit and tubers at the same time. IIRC the advice given out by one supplier was to stack three old car tyres on top of each other and fill with soil / compost mix, insert a strong stake and grow in there. -- Shaun. Horrors! Did supplier know what kind of **** leaks out of car tires? Into your soil & thence into your food! Is this is not true, will someone point me to a scientific analysis?HB |
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On Monday, January 26, 2015 at 7:27:50 PM UTC-8, ~misfit~ wrote:
Once upon a time on usenet songbird wrote: [snipped] .... of course human manure composting will help increase soil nutrients too. if your family is healthy and doesn't use hormones or chemotherapeutics then composted poo/pee is a valuable resource. hard to get people to accept it, but there is no reason to not use such a valuable resource if you can learn to do it safely (the humanure handbook is freely available on-line). it just freaks out people though so most gardeners won't do it (but they will use composted cow manure from sources they know much less about than their own family, so go figure...). if you build in a long enough cycle there is no problem from disease organisms and if you are very paranoid you can even use it as a subsoil amendment (buried deeply again) and that will cover all remaining issues. The amount of nutrient in human manure is minimal compared with that in urine. I have been practicing 'micturition farming' for decades now and have had excellent results. It is very easy to do (especially when compared with the use of solid manure) and appeals to my sense of the cyclic nature of things and my abhorrence of waste in general. http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...ve-fertilizer/ I just keep a bucket next to the toilet and use it for urine, emptying it into a watering can and diluting with water at least 10:1 (often with used aquarium water for that added nutrient boost). The sooner it's used the better or the urea will degrade into ammonia and become less bio-available. People who know me are amazed at my horticultural successes but I don't often share my secret as people can have totally irrational opinions of certain things. -- Err.... can't you just go out in the garden and.... Or if that would be too concentrated, dilute with dihydrogen monoxide from a hose? Not presuming to ask who else shares facilities... HB |
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songbird wrote:
f course human manure composting will help increase soil nutrients too. And no greater source of human manure exists than at Usenet. LOL |
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Once upon a time on usenet Hypatia Nachshon wrote:
On Monday, January 26, 2015 at 7:27:50 PM UTC-8, ~misfit~ wrote: Once upon a time on usenet songbird wrote: [snipped] .... of course human manure composting will help increase soil nutrients too. if your family is healthy and doesn't use hormones or chemotherapeutics then composted poo/pee is a valuable resource. hard to get people to accept it, but there is no reason to not use such a valuable resource if you can learn to do it safely (the humanure handbook is freely available on-line). it just freaks out people though so most gardeners won't do it (but they will use composted cow manure from sources they know much less about than their own family, so go figure...). if you build in a long enough cycle there is no problem from disease organisms and if you are very paranoid you can even use it as a subsoil amendment (buried deeply again) and that will cover all remaining issues. The amount of nutrient in human manure is minimal compared with that in urine. I have been practicing 'micturition farming' for decades now and have had excellent results. It is very easy to do (especially when compared with the use of solid manure) and appeals to my sense of the cyclic nature of things and my abhorrence of waste in general. http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...ve-fertilizer/ I just keep a bucket next to the toilet and use it for urine, emptying it into a watering can and diluting with water at least 10:1 (often with used aquarium water for that added nutrient boost). The sooner it's used the better or the urea will degrade into ammonia and become less bio-available. People who know me are amazed at my horticultural successes but I don't often share my secret as people can have totally irrational opinions of certain things. Err.... can't you just go out in the garden and.... I'm an invalid - chronic back injury and constant pain. The morning pee is the biggest (most worth catching) and when freshly out of bed I hobble for an hour or two. Making it to the garden and dangling genitalia (in suburbia no less) isn't really an option. Or if that would be too concentrated, dilute with dihydrogen monoxide from a hose? It does need diluting. Undiluted urine will kill plants. Also it's easier to spread around where it's needed when diluted....... Not presuming to ask who else shares facilities... It's no presumption. I live alone these days. -- Shaun. "Humans will have advanced a long, long, way when religious belief has a cozy little classification in the DSM." David Melville (in r.a.s.f1) |
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Once upon a time on usenet Hypatia Nachshon wrote:
On Monday, January 26, 2015 at 7:15:28 PM UTC-8, ~misfit~ wrote: Once upon a time on usenet Todd wrote: On 01/11/2015 05:56 PM, ~misfit~ wrote: Once upon a time on usenet Frank Miles wrote: On Tue, 06 Jan 2015 17:00:26 -0800, Todd wrote: Hi All, You knew this was going to happen eventually. A tomato plant grafted unto a potato plant. Both are Solanaceae (nightshade) and probably were the same plant years and years ago. http://www.foxnews.com/science/2015/...hup-and-fries/ What I don't understand is how the plant would have enough power left in it to grow both potatoes and tomatoes. Must be the richest soil the plant could handle without burning the plant! Will wonders ever cease! -T Actually this has been done for years (no idea how successfully). Your favorite search engine can find many how-tos. Only thing slightly new is someone trying to commercialize the grafted plant. They've been available in garden centres here in New Zealand for the last few years at least. They're more of a gimick than a vaild food production method I think. What gets me the amount of power the plant would have to produce to create both large fruit and tubers at the same time. IIRC the advice given out by one supplier was to stack three old car tyres on top of each other and fill with soil / compost mix, insert a strong stake and grow in there. -- Shaun. Horrors! Did supplier know what kind of **** leaks out of car tires? Into your soil & thence into your food! Is this is not true, will someone point me to a scientific analysis?HB You could well be right. However it's quite common to use old car tyres as mini raised beds here (well I've seen it more than once and read 'green' articles advising it several times). Generally it's advised to 'weather' them for a while before use - or at least wash them very well. -- Shaun. "Humans will have advanced a long, long, way when religious belief has a cozy little classification in the DSM." David Melville (in r.a.s.f1) |
tom-tato?
On 01/27/2015 06:44 PM, ~misfit~ wrote:
Once upon a time on usenet Hypatia Nachshon wrote: On Monday, January 26, 2015 at 7:15:28 PM UTC-8, ~misfit~ wrote: Once upon a time on usenet Todd wrote: On 01/11/2015 05:56 PM, ~misfit~ wrote: Once upon a time on usenet Frank Miles wrote: On Tue, 06 Jan 2015 17:00:26 -0800, Todd wrote: Hi All, You knew this was going to happen eventually. A tomato plant grafted unto a potato plant. Both are Solanaceae (nightshade) and probably were the same plant years and years ago. http://www.foxnews.com/science/2015/...hup-and-fries/ What I don't understand is how the plant would have enough power left in it to grow both potatoes and tomatoes. Must be the richest soil the plant could handle without burning the plant! Will wonders ever cease! -T Actually this has been done for years (no idea how successfully). Your favorite search engine can find many how-tos. Only thing slightly new is someone trying to commercialize the grafted plant. They've been available in garden centres here in New Zealand for the last few years at least. They're more of a gimick than a vaild food production method I think. What gets me the amount of power the plant would have to produce to create both large fruit and tubers at the same time. IIRC the advice given out by one supplier was to stack three old car tyres on top of each other and fill with soil / compost mix, insert a strong stake and grow in there. -- Shaun. Horrors! Did supplier know what kind of **** leaks out of car tires? Into your soil & thence into your food! Is this is not true, will someone point me to a scientific analysis?HB You could well be right. However it's quite common to use old car tyres as mini raised beds here (well I've seen it more than once and read 'green' articles advising it several times). Generally it's advised to 'weather' them for a while before use - or at least wash them very well. Hmmmm. I am looking forward the Shaun's amazing car tire tomatoes at the next county fair. All we need now is an office car tire tomato taste tester. I nominate Higgs. That will get even with her for that airline joke! |
tom-tato?
On Tuesday, January 27, 2015 at 6:39:55 PM UTC-8, ~misfit~ wrote:
Once upon a time on usenet Hypatia Nachshon wrote: On Monday, January 26, 2015 at 7:27:50 PM UTC-8, ~misfit~ wrote: Once upon a time on usenet songbird wrote: [snipped] .... of course human manure composting will help increase soil nutrients too. if your family is healthy and doesn't use hormones or chemotherapeutics then composted poo/pee is a valuable resource. hard to get people to accept it, but there is no reason to not use such a valuable resource if you can learn to do it safely (the humanure handbook is freely available on-line). it just freaks out people though so most gardeners won't do it (but they will use composted cow manure from sources they know much less about than their own family, so go figure...). if you build in a long enough cycle there is no problem from disease organisms and if you are very paranoid you can even use it as a subsoil amendment (buried deeply again) and that will cover all remaining issues. The amount of nutrient in human manure is minimal compared with that in urine. I have been practicing 'micturition farming' for decades now and have had excellent results. It is very easy to do (especially when compared with the use of solid manure) and appeals to my sense of the cyclic nature of things and my abhorrence of waste in general. http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...ve-fertilizer/ I just keep a bucket next to the toilet and use it for urine, emptying it into a watering can and diluting with water at least 10:1 (often with used aquarium water for that added nutrient boost). The sooner it's used the better or the urea will degrade into ammonia and become less bio-available. People who know me are amazed at my horticultural successes but I don't often share my secret as people can have totally irrational opinions of certain things. Err.... can't you just go out in the garden and.... I'm an invalid - chronic back injury and constant pain. The morning pee is the biggest (most worth catching) and when freshly out of bed I hobble for an hour or two. Making it to the garden and dangling genitalia (in suburbia no less) isn't really an option. Or if that would be too concentrated, dilute with dihydrogen monoxide from a hose? It does need diluting. Undiluted urine will kill plants. Also it's easier to spread around where it's needed when diluted....... Not presuming to ask who else shares facilities... It's no presumption. I live alone these days. Sorry about physical problems. The "constant pain" part is very upsetting to hear about. AFAIK pain control is one of the most active fields in medical research, so I hope your medical providers are on top of current work. All good wishes, HB |
tom-tato?
Once upon a time on usenet Hypatia Nachshon wrote:
On Tuesday, January 27, 2015 at 6:39:55 PM UTC-8, ~misfit~ wrote: Once upon a time on usenet Hypatia Nachshon wrote: On Monday, January 26, 2015 at 7:27:50 PM UTC-8, ~misfit~ wrote: Once upon a time on usenet songbird wrote: [snipped] .... of course human manure composting will help increase soil nutrients too. if your family is healthy and doesn't use hormones or chemotherapeutics then composted poo/pee is a valuable resource. hard to get people to accept it, but there is no reason to not use such a valuable resource if you can learn to do it safely (the humanure handbook is freely available on-line). it just freaks out people though so most gardeners won't do it (but they will use composted cow manure from sources they know much less about than their own family, so go figure...). if you build in a long enough cycle there is no problem from disease organisms and if you are very paranoid you can even use it as a subsoil amendment (buried deeply again) and that will cover all remaining issues. The amount of nutrient in human manure is minimal compared with that in urine. I have been practicing 'micturition farming' for decades now and have had excellent results. It is very easy to do (especially when compared with the use of solid manure) and appeals to my sense of the cyclic nature of things and my abhorrence of waste in general. http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...ve-fertilizer/ I just keep a bucket next to the toilet and use it for urine, emptying it into a watering can and diluting with water at least 10:1 (often with used aquarium water for that added nutrient boost). The sooner it's used the better or the urea will degrade into ammonia and become less bio-available. People who know me are amazed at my horticultural successes but I don't often share my secret as people can have totally irrational opinions of certain things. Err.... can't you just go out in the garden and.... I'm an invalid - chronic back injury and constant pain. The morning pee is the biggest (most worth catching) and when freshly out of bed I hobble for an hour or two. Making it to the garden and dangling genitalia (in suburbia no less) isn't really an option. Or if that would be too concentrated, dilute with dihydrogen monoxide from a hose? It does need diluting. Undiluted urine will kill plants. Also it's easier to spread around where it's needed when diluted....... Not presuming to ask who else shares facilities... It's no presumption. I live alone these days. Sorry about physical problems. The "constant pain" part is very upsetting to hear about. AFAIK pain control is one of the most active fields in medical research, so I hope your medical providers are on top of current work. All good wishes, HB Thanks for the kind words. A sit-rep of my disability below, feel free to not read it..... I unjured myself in my mid 30s, not long after I'd sunk my life savings into becoming self-employed in a line of work that was going to need a few years hard work before seeing returns. Long story short I popped a disc out, the lowest one where the spine meets the pelvis (but didn't know at the time exactly what was going on as I'm a tough ******* and didn't scream like a little girl - so was told to take APAP four times a day). After an intial couple of months of agony (I couldn't afford private healthcare as I was financially fully commited - so availed myself of the free medical care we have here in NZ) I saw a chiropractor who popped it back in again. I was able to carry on, still painful but not bad enough to prevent me from doing a ~6 hour day (when I really needed to be doing 10). Every three months it got bad and I went back to the chiro and had to put back but it got harder and harder to do - until they couldn't fix it. I ended up losing everything, life savings and home. (There was almost zero resale value in the 'plant' I'd invested in.) After a decade of pain getting worse and worse I finally managed to get an MRI (!). I was told a disc had ruptured and the 'jelly' had leaked out and been gradually absorbed by my body (which is why the chiro found it harder and harder to 'fix' me). Now I'm bone-on-bone with compressed nerves causing 'sciatica'. (The word hardly does what I feel justice but it's one most people are familiar with.) I have oesteophytes (bony protrusions) growing all around the area where my body is trying to fuse my spine to protect itself. The musco-skeletal specialist who I finally saw just over 10 years after my accident (who got me into an MRI within 12 hours of the initial exam) says my only paid-for option is a spinal fusion of the immediate area. However he really doesn't recommend it as my MRI shows the two or three discs above are also damaged (bulging into my spinal cord cavity but not ruptured at present) and fusing the lower one may or may not fix the problem in that area and would place much more strain on the already damaged vertebral joints above. However he's at the limit of what he can do for me (I don't want higher doses of opiods, I value my mind too much) and if / when I can no longer stand it he'll send me on to the surgeon. Hobson's choice. For now I'm just hoping to make it to old(er) age as he told me that, in septugenarians and older the sort of injury I have doesn't cause anywhere near as much pain as their nervous systems have also degraded. So I've got a bit less than 20 years to go to find out...... If I can hold off on the surgery. ;-) Best, -- Shaun. "Humans will have advanced a long, long, way when religious belief has a cozy little classification in the DSM." David Melville (in r.a.s.f1) |
tom-tato?
Once upon a time on usenet T wrote:
On 01/27/2015 06:44 PM, ~misfit~ wrote: Once upon a time on usenet Hypatia Nachshon wrote: On Monday, January 26, 2015 at 7:15:28 PM UTC-8, ~misfit~ wrote: Once upon a time on usenet Todd wrote: On 01/11/2015 05:56 PM, ~misfit~ wrote: Once upon a time on usenet Frank Miles wrote: On Tue, 06 Jan 2015 17:00:26 -0800, Todd wrote: Hi All, You knew this was going to happen eventually. A tomato plant grafted unto a potato plant. Both are Solanaceae (nightshade) and probably were the same plant years and years ago. http://www.foxnews.com/science/2015/...hup-and-fries/ What I don't understand is how the plant would have enough power left in it to grow both potatoes and tomatoes. Must be the richest soil the plant could handle without burning the plant! Will wonders ever cease! -T Actually this has been done for years (no idea how successfully). Your favorite search engine can find many how-tos. Only thing slightly new is someone trying to commercialize the grafted plant. They've been available in garden centres here in New Zealand for the last few years at least. They're more of a gimick than a vaild food production method I think. What gets me the amount of power the plant would have to produce to create both large fruit and tubers at the same time. IIRC the advice given out by one supplier was to stack three old car tyres on top of each other and fill with soil / compost mix, insert a strong stake and grow in there. -- Shaun. Horrors! Did supplier know what kind of **** leaks out of car tires? Into your soil & thence into your food! Is this is not true, will someone point me to a scientific analysis?HB You could well be right. However it's quite common to use old car tyres as mini raised beds here (well I've seen it more than once and read 'green' articles advising it several times). Generally it's advised to 'weather' them for a while before use - or at least wash them very well. Hmmmm. I am looking forward the Shaun's amazing car tire tomatoes at the next county fair. I didn't say that I use car tyres as raised beds - just that I've had it suggested to me as an affordable option and have seen others using them. -- Shaun. "Humans will have advanced a long, long, way when religious belief has a cozy little classification in the DSM." David Melville (in r.a.s.f1) All we need now is an office car tire tomato taste tester. I nominate Higgs. That will get even with her for that airline joke! |
tom-tato?
On 01/27/2015 09:45 PM, ~misfit~ wrote:
Hmmmm. I am looking forward the Shaun's amazing car tire tomatoes at the next county fair. I didn't say that I use car tyres as raised beds - just that I've had it suggested to me as an affordable option and have seen others using them. You do realize I was funning you? All we need now is an office car tire ^^^ official tomato taste tester. I nominate Higgs. That will get even with her for that airline joke! |
tom-tato?
Hypatia Nachshon wrote:
On Monday, January 26, 2015 at 7:27:50 PM UTC-8, ~misfit~ wrote: Once upon a time on usenet songbird wrote: [snipped] .... of course human manure composting will help increase soil nutrients too. if your family is healthy and doesn't use hormones or chemotherapeutics then composted poo/pee is a valuable resource. hard to get people to accept it, but there is no reason to not use such a valuable resource if you can learn to do it safely (the humanure handbook is freely available on-line). it just freaks out people though so most gardeners won't do it (but they will use composted cow manure from sources they know much less about than their own family, so go figure...). if you build in a long enough cycle there is no problem from disease organisms and if you are very paranoid you can even use it as a subsoil amendment (buried deeply again) and that will cover all remaining issues. The amount of nutrient in human manure is minimal compared with that in urine. I have been practicing 'micturition farming' for decades now and have had excellent results. It is very easy to do (especially when compared with the use of solid manure) and appeals to my sense of the cyclic nature of things and my abhorrence of waste in general. http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...ve-fertilizer/ I just keep a bucket next to the toilet and use it for urine, emptying it into a watering can and diluting with water at least 10:1 (often with used aquarium water for that added nutrient boost). The sooner it's used the better or the urea will degrade into ammonia and become less bio-available. People who know me are amazed at my horticultural successes but I don't often share my secret as people can have totally irrational opinions of certain things. -- Err.... can't you just go out in the garden and.... Or if that would be too concentrated, dilute with dihydrogen monoxide from a hose? Not presuming to ask who else shares facilities... HB Yes you can go straight out into the garden, directly on to the lemon tree is just fine, it doesn't need to be cool or collected in a bucket. In this age of equality teach your daughters this as well as your sons. The targeting might be different but the analysis is about the same. Human urine is not concentrated enough to harm plants in the ground, it might be possible if you flooded a potted plants but then you might also find it a little aromatic for the patio or the front room too. For those who are about to read me a lesson on public health your urine ought to be sterile unless you have a urinary tract infection in which case you should be seeing the doctor not ****ing on your plants. -- David - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - A better world requires a daily struggle against those who would mislead us. |
tom-tato?
David Hare-Scott wrote:
.... find it a little aromatic for the patio or the front room too. in an arid climate i'd not want to use a lot of it all the time, but right before the rainy season is likely ok. For those who are about to read me a lesson on public health your urine ought to be sterile unless you have a urinary tract infection in which case you should be seeing the doctor not ****ing on your plants. recently the knowledge on this has changed. originally when such studies were made baterial levels were below that easily detectable, now they find that "urine is sterile" is a myth. so it does usually have some bacteria in it but that doesn't mean it is a problem when properly composted. poo & pee together with some carbon source (sawdust, shredded leaves, etc.) is about the perfect combination and will compost nicely. there are plenty of nutrients in feces from humans, bacteria will use it as an energy source quite easily. trace elements that did not get absorbed, etc. all often well appreciated by plant life. though i do not believe in "design" i do think that we are here in this system and not outside of it so that what goes in and comes back out are a good part of the whole. just treat it with the respect it deserves. if you are in an arid climate with little access to organic materials use it instead of wasting it. songbird |
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~misfit~ wrote:
.... Thanks for the kind words. A sit-rep of my disability below, feel free to not read it..... much sympathy, it's no fun, that is for sure! my chiropractor has helped me a lot. and i've done a lot of studying to see what is going on and what might help the most. right now i am stable and fairly pain free (off and on again problems for 37 years). i am not restored to perfect function though so i do have to be wary of certain things and pay attention to when my back has had enough. unfortunately, most people are not taught how to take care of their back in health class or on the job training (along with proper lifting techniques). i wasn't. for some jobs this training should be mandatory along with a basic fitness test (to make sure your abdominal muscles are strong enough and lifting techniques are proper). the morning is the most likely time to blow out a disc because they get recharged at night and the fluids in them make them stiff until you can get them limbered up (gently). if you are doing any kind of garden work or heavy lifting or even bending in the morning it is always a good idea to warm up first. most of the injuries to my back could have been avoided had i known such things. it's always a bad idea to take someone and throw them into heavy work without conditioning and training. had i been given such i think i could have avoided most of my troubles and the injuries i did have would have been much less troublesome over the longer term. living some place i could swim in the ocean on a regular basis would be really nice and the most help. around here i try to take regular walks and of course keep active in the gardens when the ground isn't frozen. songbird |
tom-tato?
songbird wrote:
David Hare-Scott wrote: ... find it a little aromatic for the patio or the front room too. in an arid climate i'd not want to use a lot of it all the time, but right before the rainy season is likely ok. I am not talking about emptying the chamber pots of the whole family on one lemon tree daily but ****ing on one of my fruit trees as the opportunity arrises. I cannot persuade Her Indoors to contribute. For those who are about to read me a lesson on public health your urine ought to be sterile unless you have a urinary tract infection in which case you should be seeing the doctor not ****ing on your plants. recently the knowledge on this has changed. originally when such studies were made baterial levels were below that easily detectable, now they find that "urine is sterile" is a myth. so it does usually have some bacteria in it but that doesn't mean it is a problem when properly composted. We can argue about what is meant by 'sterile', if you need special modern techniques to detect pathogens but still they are there you are technically correct. However from a practical point of view it is not a health risk. Of course anything composted is far from sterile by any definition. poo & pee together with some carbon source (sawdust, shredded leaves, etc.) is about the perfect combination and will compost nicely. there are plenty of nutrients in feces from humans, bacteria will use it as an energy source quite easily. trace elements that did not get absorbed, etc. all often well appreciated by plant life. though i do not believe in "design" i do think that we are here in this system and not outside of it so that what goes in and comes back out are a good part of the whole. just treat it with the respect it deserves. if you are in an arid climate with little access to organic materials use it instead of wasting it. A good idea in principle but much harder to manage in practice. Feces do require considerable care and management to be safe whereas urine doesn't. As you observe much more suited to a dry climate. I have friends who have for idealogical reasons installed composting toilets in a wet climate and it is a constant source of problems. -- David - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - A better world requires a daily struggle against those who would mislead us. |
tom-tato?
Once upon a time on usenet David Hare-Scott wrote:
[snipped] Human urine is not concentrated enough to harm plants in the ground, it might be possible if you flooded a potted plants but then you might also find it a little aromatic for the patio or the front room too. My experience differs from your statement. I used to sleep in a 'sleep-out' at my parents home and, as the toilet was inside and I am a night-owl I'd often pee on the lawn / garden at night so as not to disturb others. I'd take care to pee in a different place each time but still there would sometimes be patches of lawn etc. that would brown off. There was no smell of urine. Now I realise that it could just be me and *my* urine that caused it but once I started to 'spread it around', even (carefully) walking sideways as I peed it ceased to be a problem and instead those areas started to grow better than surroundings. That was a couple of decades ago and sowed the seeds of my current micturition horticulture practices. I have since found it much easier to pee in a bucket, dilute it ~10:1 with water in the morning and use a watering can. That way it's not just the closest area to my bedroom door that gets the benefit and I don't have to worry about peeing on my legs or triping over while doing it. Also I no longer live in a rural area and don't fancy getting arrested for indecent exposure. ;-) -- Shaun. "Humans will have advanced a long, long, way when religious belief has a cozy little classification in the DSM." David Melville (in r.a.s.f1) |
tom-tato?
Once upon a time on usenet songbird wrote:
~misfit~ wrote: ... Thanks for the kind words. A sit-rep of my disability below, feel free to not read it..... much sympathy, it's no fun, that is for sure! Thank you. Indeed it's not fun. my chiropractor has helped me a lot. and i've done a lot of studying to see what is going on and what might help the most. right now i am stable and fairly pain free (off and on again problems for 37 years). i am not restored to perfect function though so i do have to be wary of certain things and pay attention to when my back has had enough. Yes, as do I. Good to hear that you are fairly pain free these days unfortunately, most people are not taught how to take care of their back in health class or on the job training (along with proper lifting techniques). i wasn't. for some jobs this training should be mandatory along with a basic fitness test (to make sure your abdominal muscles are strong enough and lifting techniques are proper). the morning is the most likely time to blow out a disc because they get recharged at night and the fluids in them make them stiff until you can get them limbered up (gently). Mornings are worst for me these days as, during the day my 'tenderloins' subconsciously bunch up and semi-immobilise the injured area. Late in the day they feel like hard rubber and I'd have difficulty moving my disc-less area if I wanted to. However they relax as I sleep and, during the early part of the day I feel very vulnerable and take great care not to twist my lower back. if you are doing any kind of garden work or heavy lifting or even bending in the morning it is always a good idea to warm up first. Very much so. most of the injuries to my back could have been avoided had i known such things. it's always a bad idea to take someone and throw them into heavy work without conditioning and training. had i been given such i think i could have avoided most of my troubles and the injuries i did have would have been much less troublesome over the longer term. My injury was a freak occurance and, while I'd never put myself in a situation where it could occur again it wasn't something that could have been avoided by education. That said most back injuries *could* be avoided if only people were given more information and bosses were made to stick to a code of conduct with their workers. living some place i could swim in the ocean on a regular basis would be really nice and the most help. around here i try to take regular walks and of course keep active in the gardens when the ground isn't frozen. Swimming in the ocean would be nice - as long as there wasn't too much surf to put pressure on my lower back. However I now live on the cheap side of town and going for walks is almost inviting trouble so my excercise is limited to gardening and (careful) lawnmowing. Cheers, -- Shaun. "Humans will have advanced a long, long, way when religious belief has a cozy little classification in the DSM." David Melville (in r.a.s.f1) |
tom-tato?
On Wednesday, January 28, 2015 at 6:46:30 PM UTC-5, ~misfit~ wrote:
Once upon a time on usenet David Hare-Scott wrote: [snipped] Human urine is not concentrated enough to harm plants in the ground, it might be possible if you flooded a potted plants but then you might also find it a little aromatic for the patio or the front room too. My experience differs from your statement. I used to sleep in a 'sleep-out' at my parents home and, as the toilet was inside and I am a night-owl I'd often pee on the lawn / garden at night so as not to disturb others. I'd take care to pee in a different place each time but still there would sometimes be patches of lawn etc. that would brown off. There was no smell of urine. Now I realise that it could just be me and *my* urine that caused it but once I started to 'spread it around', even (carefully) walking sideways as I peed it ceased to be a problem and instead those areas started to grow better than surroundings. That was a couple of decades ago and sowed the seeds of my current micturition horticulture practices. I have since found it much easier to pee in a bucket, dilute it ~10:1 with water in the morning and use a watering can. That way it's not just the closest area to my bedroom door that gets the benefit and I don't have to worry about peeing on my legs or triping over while doing it. Also I no longer live in a rural area and don't fancy getting arrested for indecent exposure. ;-) -- Shaun. "Humans will have advanced a long, long, way when religious belief has a cozy little classification in the DSM." David Melville (in r.a.s.f1) Don't pee on the azaleas! I killed a 1/2 dozen of the missus's. |
tom-tato?
Steve Peekingese wrote:
Don't pee on the azaleas! I killed a 1/2 dozen of the missus's. Did the missus bring you to the Vet for neutering? |
tom-tato?
Once upon a time on usenet Steve Peek wrote:
On Wednesday, January 28, 2015 at 6:46:30 PM UTC-5, ~misfit~ wrote: Once upon a time on usenet David Hare-Scott wrote: [snipped] Human urine is not concentrated enough to harm plants in the ground, it might be possible if you flooded a potted plants but then you might also find it a little aromatic for the patio or the front room too. My experience differs from your statement. I used to sleep in a 'sleep-out' at my parents home and, as the toilet was inside and I am a night-owl I'd often pee on the lawn / garden at night so as not to disturb others. I'd take care to pee in a different place each time but still there would sometimes be patches of lawn etc. that would brown off. There was no smell of urine. Now I realise that it could just be me and *my* urine that caused it but once I started to 'spread it around', even (carefully) walking sideways as I peed it ceased to be a problem and instead those areas started to grow better than surroundings. That was a couple of decades ago and sowed the seeds of my current micturition horticulture practices. I have since found it much easier to pee in a bucket, dilute it ~10:1 with water in the morning and use a watering can. That way it's not just the closest area to my bedroom door that gets the benefit and I don't have to worry about peeing on my legs or triping over while doing it. Also I no longer live in a rural area and don't fancy getting arrested for indecent exposure. ;-) Don't pee on the azaleas! I killed a 1/2 dozen of the missus's. Heh! Now if you'd diluted that pee with water 10:1 you'd have made them grow much better than the rest instead of killing them. ;-) -- Shaun. "Humans will have advanced a long, long, way when religious belief has a cozy little classification in the DSM." David Melville (in r.a.s.f1) |
tom-tato?
On Thursday, January 29, 2015 at 12:20:12 PM UTC-5, Brooklyn1 wrote:
Steve Peekingese wrote: Don't pee on the azaleas! I killed a 1/2 dozen of the missus's. Did the missus bring you to the Vet for neutering? I never admitted to it. |
tom-tato?
Steve Peek wrote:
Brooklyn1 wrote: Steve Peekingese wrote: Don't pee on the azaleas! I killed a 1/2 dozen of the missus's. Did the missus bring you to the Vet for neutering? I never admitted to it. That was wise, as you knew she would have raised your voice a few octaves. hehe |
tom-tato?
On Friday, January 30, 2015 at 2:10:02 PM UTC-5, Brooklyn1 wrote:
Steve Peek wrote: Brooklyn1 wrote: Steve Peekingese wrote: Don't pee on the azaleas! I killed a 1/2 dozen of the missus's. Did the missus bring you to the Vet for neutering? I never admitted to it. That was wise, as you knew she would have raised your voice a few octaves. hehe Yep, I was born at night, but twasn't last night. |
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