Fran Farmer wrote:
Just look at all the name calling on this
group towards those that dissent.

The problem with those who dissent here, which IIRC has only been
expressed by you and Frank, is that neither of you have given cites
that can withstand any scrutiny to support your claims that climate
change is 'bunk'. For example, that newspaper article cited by Frank
can be demolished in about 60 seconds flat using the most simple of
google searches.

Funny how the righties always accuse their opponents of have exactly their own
worst faults.

On Friday, February 13, 2015 at 6:42:39 AM UTC-8, Drew Lawson wrote:
In article
Hypatia Nachshon writes:

But our whole capitalist-driven social structure (and I am a
card-carrying capitalist but with a human heart!) is directed at
creating an educational system [chuckle] whose aim is to turn out
consumers of [often bad] products people don't really need, and
[almost always bad] ideas that profit only Our Corporate Masters
and their whore-lackeys in Congress.

I read Brave New World somewhere around 1983. I recall finding the
component about obligatory consumption to be silly hyperbole.

I've re-read it every few year since [censored date] and it gets scarier every time, as technology and above all VALLUES catch up to prescient prediction.(Can one say that?)

Same, incidentally, with "1984", which I read first as a university student way back when. I did not sleep well for a week. Next time I tried to read it, I was too scared to finish. It took years till I could approach it again.

Meantime, technology is rapidly catching up to Big Brother...

I now think that Huxley's presentation was understated.

Amen!

HB

--
Drew Lawson

". . . And I never give a reason"
-- God, as channeled by Seven Nations

On 13/02/2015 11:32 AM, Hypatia Nachshon wrote:
On Thursday, February 12, 2015 at 6:13:03 AM UTC-8, Fran Farmer wrote:
On 12/02/2015 1:43 PM, Boron Elgar wrote:
On Thu, 12 Feb 2015 10:55:37 +1100, Fran Farmer
wrote:

On 12/02/2015 2:02 AM, Boron Elgar wrote:
On Tue, 10 Feb 2015 19:41:32 -0800, T wrote:


Did you notice that the source you cited got character
assassinated? This is what happens when political correctness
rules science (Lysenkoism).


Your source was called out for his well-known agenda, his repeated
denial of basic scientific facts and his overall lack of credibility.

That "journalist" really is lacking in credibility but then if we go on
to the links back to Homewood, The Tele source, at least it can be said
that he put more effort into his hoodwinking than the "journalist".

You've got to hand it to Homewood, he's got a nice little hoodwink line
going on there. People such as the Telegraph "journalist" and others
who go to his site must just believe him without going on to check his
sources. They must be either lazy or stupid or will buy cheap sea side
land that only gets wet twice a day. If they did check the links
Homewood gives, it becomes very clear, very quickly, that Homewood also
is not the least bit credible.

Indeed. Most folks will not take the extra step that is needed these
days to verify what they see online.


Sigh. I used to think that full access to knowledge and verifiable
facts online would create in informed citizenry.

It depresses me if I think about it for too long. The Age of
Enlightenment might never have happened given what I see of all of
dumbing down that goes.

Boy was I wrong. All it has done is give a stage to fools, liars and
snake-oil purveyors.

Well there is some great stuff too but the problem is that too many
people don't seem capable of differentiating the crap from the
superlative (or at least the acceptable).

They could if they would bother acquiring the rudiments of critical thinking.

I have always thought that some degree of critical thinking was such a
basic life skill that everyone had it to some degree.

"will I cross the road now with that car coming towards me at speed or
will a wait a few seconds and cross when it has gone by?", "That person
in Nigeria who is asking me for money in that email wants my bank
details so what would they need them for and how would they use those
details?", "It's still frosty each morning, will I plant my tomatoes
outside?"

Admittedly none of those are a challenge but for issues such as, say
climate change or say, when the war in Iraq was mooted, then it often
seems that any degree of sensible thinking goes out the window.

But our whole capitalist-driven social structure (and I am a card-carrying capitalist but with a human heart!) is directed at creating an educational system [chuckle] whose aim is to turn out consumers of [often bad] products people don't really need, and [almost always bad] ideas that profit only Our Corporate Masters and their whore-lackeys in Congress.

I also approve in general terms of Capitalism, but not of the sort of
rampant greed and extreme consumption that some Capitalists think is OK.
We are very well off in our retirement and that is due to the
Capitalist system but we could certainly survive very happily on a lot
less than we have coming in.

With the greatest respect for NG members who try to engage climate change deniers, save your electrons. Deniers NEED this belief system! to give it up would damage their selves.

Incidentally, do people realize there still exists a Flat Earth Society?

LOL. You are probably right about both, but I suspect the Flat Earthers
probably belong to that group with their tongues firmly planted in their
cheeks.

On 02/13/2015 08:59 PM, Bob F wrote:
Funny how the righties always accuse their opponents of have exactly their own
worst faults.

Rules for Radicals is your side's thing

On Saturday, February 14, 2015 at 2:56:35 PM UTC-8, Fran Farmer wrote:
On 13/02/2015 11:32 AM, Hypatia Nachshon wrote:
On Thursday, February 12, 2015 at 6:13:03 AM UTC-8, Fran Farmer wrote:
On 12/02/2015 1:43 PM, Boron Elgar wrote:
On Thu, 12 Feb 2015 10:55:37 +1100, Fran Farmer
wrote:

On 12/02/2015 2:02 AM, Boron Elgar wrote:
On Tue, 10 Feb 2015 19:41:32 -0800, T wrote:


Did you notice that the source you cited got character
assassinated? This is what happens when political correctness
rules science (Lysenkoism).


Your source was called out for his well-known agenda, his repeated
denial of basic scientific facts and his overall lack of credibility.

That "journalist" really is lacking in credibility but then if we go on
to the links back to Homewood, The Tele source, at least it can be said
that he put more effort into his hoodwinking than the "journalist".

You've got to hand it to Homewood, he's got a nice little hoodwink line
going on there. People such as the Telegraph "journalist" and others
who go to his site must just believe him without going on to check his
sources. They must be either lazy or stupid or will buy cheap sea side
land that only gets wet twice a day. If they did check the links
Homewood gives, it becomes very clear, very quickly, that Homewood also
is not the least bit credible.

Indeed. Most folks will not take the extra step that is needed these
days to verify what they see online.


Sigh. I used to think that full access to knowledge and verifiable
facts online would create in informed citizenry.

It depresses me if I think about it for too long. The Age of
Enlightenment might never have happened given what I see of all of
dumbing down that goes.

Boy was I wrong. All it has done is give a stage to fools, liars and
snake-oil purveyors.

Well there is some great stuff too but the problem is that too many
people don't seem capable of differentiating the crap from the
superlative (or at least the acceptable).

They could if they would bother acquiring the rudiments of critical thinking.

I have always thought that some degree of critical thinking was such a
basic life skill that everyone had it to some degree.

"will I cross the road now with that car coming towards me at speed or
will a wait a few seconds and cross when it has gone by?", "That person
in Nigeria who is asking me for money in that email wants my bank
details so what would they need them for and how would they use those
details?", "It's still frosty each morning, will I plant my tomatoes
outside?"

Admittedly none of those are a challenge but for issues such as, say
climate change or say, when the war in Iraq was mooted, then it often
seems that any degree of sensible thinking goes out the window.

But our whole capitalist-driven social structure (and I am a card-carrying capitalist but with a human heart!) is directed at creating an educational system [chuckle] whose aim is to turn out consumers of [often bad] products people don't really need, and [almost always bad] ideas that profit only Our Corporate Masters and their whore-lackeys in Congress.

I also approve in general terms of Capitalism, but not of the sort of
rampant greed and extreme consumption that some Capitalists think is OK.

Guess we're on the same page. In theory, socialism is the ideal set-up -- just ask Karl Marx ("From each according to his ability, to each according to his need")-- but in practice the worst in human nature quickly emerges, leading to either collapse of the experiment* or its take-over by strong, dictatorial elements or personalities (Lenin et seq "the dictatorship of the proletariat")

*History records numerous small socialist experiments in the US,, mostly ISTR in New England?, but they did not last. A fascinating field of study.

We are very well off in our retirement and that is due to the
Capitalist system but we could certainly survive very happily on a lot
less than we have coming in.

Is there a non sequitur in there? Straight question.

With the greatest respect for NG members who try to engage climate change deniers, save your electrons. Deniers NEED this belief system! to give it up would damage their selves.

Incidentally, do people realize there still exists a Flat Earth Society?

LOL. You are probably right about both, but I suspect the Flat Earthers
probably belong to that group with their tongues firmly planted in their
cheeks.

'Fraid not.

If you want a break from reality and/or a few laffs & tears, visit

http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/cms/

and click on their links (including maps!)

Inter alia, Wikipedia has an article on the history of the movement.

HB

With the greatest respect for NG members who try to engage climate
change deniers, save your electrons. Deniers NEED this belief
system! to give it up would damage their selves.

Incidentally, do people realize there still exists a Flat Earth
Society?

LOL. You are probably right about both, but I suspect the Flat
Earthers probably belong to that group with their tongues firmly
planted in their cheeks.

'Fraid not.

If you want a break from reality and/or a few laffs & tears, visit

http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/cms/

and click on their links (including maps!)

Inter alia, Wikipedia has an article on the history of the movement.

HB

We are way OT now but just one more titbit before I behave myself.

Some books for those who want to know mo

"Merchants of Doubt" Oreskes & Conway, The lobby for tobacco and against
climate change.

"The Republican War of Science" Mooney, When politics controls not just
opinions but data.

"This Changes Everything" Klein, The relationship between growth, capitalism
and climate denial.

--
David

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Corporate propaganda is their
protection against democracy

On Sunday, February 15, 2015 at 2:17:08 PM UTC-8, David Hare-Scott wrote:
With the greatest respect for NG members who try to engage climate
change deniers, save your electrons. Deniers NEED this belief
system! to give it up would damage their selves.

Incidentally, do people realize there still exists a Flat Earth
Society?

LOL. You are probably right about both, but I suspect the Flat
Earthers probably belong to that group with their tongues firmly
planted in their cheeks.

'Fraid not.

If you want a break from reality and/or a few laffs & tears, visit

http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/cms/

and click on their links (including maps!)

Inter alia, Wikipedia has an article on the history of the movement.

HB

We are way OT now but just one more titbit before I behave myself.

Some books for those who want to know mo

"Merchants of Doubt" Oreskes & Conway, The lobby for tobacco and against
climate change.

THE gold standard! Have read & re-read, and followed them on Frontline and other media. They not only have serious academic cred, but present information in digestible form which is what's required to get the attention of hoi polloi. As an early leader in the battle for non-smokers' rights back in the REALLY bad old days, I am very glad their work has received wide attention.

"The Republican War of Science" Mooney, When politics controls not just
opinions but data.

Chris Mooney writes voluminously on environment. Not having read him myself, I can't say where he is on the (chuckle) political spectrum.

"This Changes Everything" Klein, The relationship between growth, capitalism
and climate denial.

Klein is a vicious ideological opponent of Israel; inter alia, she is a proponent of the infamous BDS movement. She belongs to the lunatic far-far-Left fringe.

There is a great deal of healthy writing out there to educate us without ingesting the ejaculations of this ideological "merchant of hate"

HB


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Corporate propaganda is their
protection against democracy

Hypatia Nachshon wrote:
"This Changes Everything" Klein, The relationship between growth,
capitalism and climate denial.

Klein is a vicious ideological opponent of Israel; inter alia, she is
a proponent of the infamous BDS movement. She belongs to the lunatic
far-far-Left fringe.

There is a great deal of healthy writing out there to educate us
without ingesting the ejaculations of this ideological "merchant of
hate"

HB

I don't accept every word in any of the books I listed but I recommend them
as presenting some good facts and some good ideas worth thinking about

I am more interested in the ideas Klein presents on the specific topic than
her general demeanour or its perception, or what she thinks of Israel.
People we dislike can say good things and those we like can say bad things.
The great Linus Pauling (the only person to get two Nobel Prizes in his own
right) said a lot of crap about vitamin C.

Expressing your loathing of the author of a book you haven't read is not a
useful book review. Anyway back to radishes.

--
David

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Corporate propaganda is their
protection against democracy

On 2/15/2015 11:06 PM, David Hare-Scott wrote:
Hypatia Nachshon wrote:
"This Changes Everything" Klein, The relationship between growth,
capitalism and climate denial.

Klein is a vicious ideological opponent of Israel; inter alia, she is
a proponent of the infamous BDS movement. She belongs to the lunatic
far-far-Left fringe.

There is a great deal of healthy writing out there to educate us
without ingesting the ejaculations of this ideological "merchant of
hate"

HB

I don't accept every word in any of the books I listed but I recommend
them as presenting some good facts and some good ideas worth thinking about

I am more interested in the ideas Klein presents on the specific topic
than her general demeanour or its perception, or what she thinks of
Israel. People we dislike can say good things and those we like can say
bad things. The great Linus Pauling (the only person to get two Nobel
Prizes in his own right) said a lot of crap about vitamin C.

Expressing your loathing of the author of a book you haven't read is not
a useful book review. Anyway back to radishes.


I looked over your list of books and it is obvious from the titles what
the conclusions are.

On 16/02/2015 6:29 AM, Hypatia Nachshon wrote:
On Saturday, February 14, 2015 at 2:56:35 PM UTC-8, Fran Farmer wrote:


We are very well off in our retirement and that is due to the
Capitalist system but we could certainly survive very happily on a lot
less than we have coming in.

Is there a non sequitur in there? Straight question.


I'll reword it and let you be the judge. We live on private retirement
income earned from our own efforts within a capitalist arrangement. If
we relied on the Old Aged Pension, that, it could be argued would be
form a socialist arrangement since it is paid to old people by the State.

Our income comes as a result of paying into funds for our working lives,
we also have income from investments. If got significantly less of the
amount of money coming in that we currently do, we could still survive
well with all our needs catered for. We would be happy and content in
both circumstances but I doubt that we would be happy if we had to
survive on the Old Age Pension. That is way too little money for comfort.

On Sunday, February 15, 2015 at 8:04:16 PM UTC-8, David Hare-Scott wrote:
Hypatia Nachshon wrote:
"This Changes Everything" Klein, The relationship between growth,
capitalism and climate denial.

Klein is a vicious ideological opponent of Israel; inter alia, she is
a proponent of the infamous BDS movement. She belongs to the lunatic
far-far-Left fringe.

There is a great deal of healthy writing out there to educate us
without ingesting the ejaculations of this ideological "merchant of
hate"

HB

I don't accept every word in any of the books I listed but I recommend them
as presenting some good facts and some good ideas worth thinking about

I am more interested in the ideas Klein presents on the specific topic than
her general demeanour or its perception, or what she thinks of Israel.
People we dislike can say good things and those we like can say bad things.
The great Linus Pauling (the only person to get two Nobel Prizes in his own
right) said a lot of crap about vitamin C.

Expressing your loathing of the author of a book you haven't read is not a
useful book review. Anyway back to radishes.

1. My comment was not a "book review", useful or otherwise.

2. You are assuming I have not read it.

3. There is so much useful, FACT-BASED research out there on [topic] that I see no reason to reward by my recommendation a writer on Subject A who has taken sickeningly immoral positions on Subject B. People are all of a piece. A links to B.

HB

--
David

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Corporate propaganda is their
protection against democracy

On Monday, February 16, 2015 at 1:44:45 PM UTC-8, Fran Farmer wrote:
On 16/02/2015 6:29 AM, Hypatia Nachshon wrote:
On Saturday, February 14, 2015 at 2:56:35 PM UTC-8, Fran Farmer wrote:


We are very well off in our retirement and that is due to the
Capitalist system but we could certainly survive very happily on a lot
less than we have coming in.

Is there a non sequitur in there? Straight question.


I'll reword it and let you be the judge. We live on private retirement
income earned from our own efforts within a capitalist arrangement. If
we relied on the Old Aged Pension, that, it could be argued would be
form a socialist arrangement since it is paid to old people by the State.

Our income comes as a result of paying into funds for our working lives,
we also have income from investments. If got significantly less of the
amount of money coming in that we currently do, we could still survive
well with all our needs catered for. We would be happy and content in
both circumstances but I doubt that we would be happy if we had to
survive on the Old Age Pension. That is way too little money for comfort.

I hope you understand I wasn't prying!!!! Congratulations on a well-deserved retirement.

HB

Hypatia Nachshon wrote:
On Sunday, February 15, 2015 at 8:04:16 PM UTC-8, David Hare-Scott
wrote:
Hypatia Nachshon wrote:
"This Changes Everything" Klein, The relationship between growth,
capitalism and climate denial.

Klein is a vicious ideological opponent of Israel; inter alia, she
is a proponent of the infamous BDS movement. She belongs to the
lunatic far-far-Left fringe.

There is a great deal of healthy writing out there to educate us
without ingesting the ejaculations of this ideological "merchant of
hate"

HB

I don't accept every word in any of the books I listed but I
recommend them as presenting some good facts and some good ideas
worth thinking about

I am more interested in the ideas Klein presents on the specific
topic than her general demeanour or its perception, or what she
thinks of Israel. People we dislike can say good things and those we
like can say bad things. The great Linus Pauling (the only person to
get two Nobel Prizes in his own right) said a lot of crap about
vitamin C.

Expressing your loathing of the author of a book you haven't read is
not a useful book review. Anyway back to radishes.

1. My comment was not a "book review", useful or otherwise.


True

2. You are assuming I have not read it.


Well have you read it or not? If so what did you think of it? Not the
author, the book.


3. There is so much useful, FACT-BASED research out there on [topic]
that I see no reason to reward by my recommendation a writer on
Subject A who has taken sickeningly immoral positions on Subject B.
People are all of a piece. A links to B.

HB


Nonsense. You are stuck in the groove that you don't like the author's
position on some things therefore nothing they say is any value. Complete
non sequitur. There is no link at all between A and B.

In what way were her reflections on climate change not fact based?

--
David

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Corporate propaganda is their
protection against democracy

Frank wrote:
On 2/15/2015 11:06 PM, David Hare-Scott wrote:
Hypatia Nachshon wrote:
"This Changes Everything" Klein, The relationship between growth,
capitalism and climate denial.

Klein is a vicious ideological opponent of Israel; inter alia, she
is a proponent of the infamous BDS movement. She belongs to the
lunatic far-far-Left fringe.

There is a great deal of healthy writing out there to educate us
without ingesting the ejaculations of this ideological "merchant of
hate"

HB

I don't accept every word in any of the books I listed but I
recommend them as presenting some good facts and some good ideas
worth thinking about I am more interested in the ideas Klein presents on
the specific
topic than her general demeanour or its perception, or what she
thinks of Israel. People we dislike can say good things and those we
like can say bad things. The great Linus Pauling (the only person to
get two Nobel Prizes in his own right) said a lot of crap about
vitamin C. Expressing your loathing of the author of a book you haven't
read is
not a useful book review. Anyway back to radishes.


I looked over your list of books and it is obvious from the titles
what the conclusions are.

#1 not obvious but you could probably make a fair guess.
#2 really obvious
#3 you must be a mind reader

But aside from the facile observations that the content of many books has a
relationship to their titles did you read any of them? Do you have any
observations about whether they supported their conclusions or not, or do
you make it a point to only read books that support your politics and
pre-conceived ideas?

--
David

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Corporate propaganda is their
protection against democracy

On 2/17/2015 6:29 AM, David Hare-Scott wrote:
Frank wrote:
On 2/15/2015 11:06 PM, David Hare-Scott wrote:
Hypatia Nachshon wrote:
"This Changes Everything" Klein, The relationship between growth,
capitalism and climate denial.

Klein is a vicious ideological opponent of Israel; inter alia, she
is a proponent of the infamous BDS movement. She belongs to the
lunatic far-far-Left fringe.

There is a great deal of healthy writing out there to educate us
without ingesting the ejaculations of this ideological "merchant of
hate"

HB

I don't accept every word in any of the books I listed but I
recommend them as presenting some good facts and some good ideas
worth thinking about I am more interested in the ideas Klein presents
on the specific
topic than her general demeanour or its perception, or what she
thinks of Israel. People we dislike can say good things and those we
like can say bad things. The great Linus Pauling (the only person to
get two Nobel Prizes in his own right) said a lot of crap about
vitamin C. Expressing your loathing of the author of a book you
haven't read is
not a useful book review. Anyway back to radishes.


I looked over your list of books and it is obvious from the titles
what the conclusions are.

#1 not obvious but you could probably make a fair guess.
#2 really obvious
#3 you must be a mind reader

But aside from the facile observations that the content of many books
has a relationship to their titles did you read any of them? Do you
have any observations about whether they supported their conclusions or
not, or do you make it a point to only read books that support your
politics and pre-conceived ideas?


Not did I read any of them, but why should I read any of them.