Before I actually order these plants and put them in the ground, I need
a reality check from those who have actual experience with them. I am
putting in a shade bed in front of the house (North facing, with morning
sun in the summer), and this is my short list of the plants I'm planning
on getting. The soil is clay (but amended), zone 6b/7a, Northern VA.
If I have left out anything that is a MUST HAVE for a shade garden (no
hostas please, deer problem; much as I'd love to have Brunnera 'Jack
Frost', I can't afford it right now), please let me know.

Short
Epimedium Sulphureum
Heuchera 'Persian Carpet'
Dicentra Exima 'Snowdrift'
Athyrium nipponicum 'Pictum'

Medium
Astrantia 'Hadspen Blood'
Anemone 'Honorine Jobert'
Thelypteris Kunthii
Tricyrtis hirta

Tall
Fallopia Japonica 'variegata'
Thalictrum Aquil. Purpureum
Lobelia Cardinalis 'Ruby Slipper'
Cimicifuga racemosa

Thanks much,
Suja

AFAIC, every shade plant is a must!! For some practical info, I have found
that astrantias will bloom much more heavily and for a longer period if
placed in more sun - all of mine (9 varieties - I like these guys!) are
located in only partial shade, perhaps 4 hours of sun.

Since the planting you describe is pretty much entirely herbaceous
perennials, I'd consider adding something a little more evergreen to provide
winter interest. Perhaps some Iris foetidissima, additional heucheras, an
evergreen shade grass and some EG ferns and maybe a hellebore or two?

pam - gardengal



Suja wrote:

Before I actually order these plants and put them in the ground, I need
a reality check from those who have actual experience with them. I am
putting in a shade bed in front of the house (North facing, with morning
sun in the summer), and this is my short list of the plants I'm planning
on getting. The soil is clay (but amended), zone 6b/7a, Northern VA.
If I have left out anything that is a MUST HAVE for a shade garden (no
hostas please, deer problem; much as I'd love to have Brunnera 'Jack
Frost', I can't afford it right now), please let me know.

Short
Epimedium Sulphureum
Heuchera 'Persian Carpet'
Dicentra Exima 'Snowdrift'
Athyrium nipponicum 'Pictum'

Medium
Astrantia 'Hadspen Blood'
Anemone 'Honorine Jobert'
Thelypteris Kunthii
Tricyrtis hirta

Tall
Fallopia Japonica 'variegata'
Thalictrum Aquil. Purpureum
Lobelia Cardinalis 'Ruby Slipper'
Cimicifuga racemosa

Thanks much,
Suja

Pam wrote:

Since the planting you describe is pretty much entirely herbaceous
perennials, I'd consider adding something a little more evergreen to provide
winter interest. Perhaps some Iris foetidissima, additional heucheras, an
evergreen shade grass and some EG ferns and maybe a hellebore or two?

Well, the plan was to add some broadleaf evergreen shrubs for winter
interest. The problem is that I can't add anything to the list without
dropping something (total of about 60 plants, so I really have to
restrict myself some so this doesn't end up looking completely
haphazard). Any suggestions for shade tolerant grasses? The only thing
I could think of was carex (no liriope - I *hate* it), and its structure
doesn't really appeal to me.

Suja

"Suja" wrote in message
...

Pam wrote:

Since the planting you describe is pretty much entirely herbaceous
perennials, I'd consider adding something a little more evergreen to
provide
winter interest. Perhaps some Iris foetidissima, additional heucheras,
an
evergreen shade grass and some EG ferns and maybe a hellebore or two?

Well, the plan was to add some broadleaf evergreen shrubs for winter
interest. The problem is that I can't add anything to the list without
dropping something (total of about 60 plants, so I really have to
restrict myself some so this doesn't end up looking completely
haphazard). Any suggestions for shade tolerant grasses? The only thing
I could think of was carex (no liriope - I *hate* it), and its structure
doesn't really appeal to me.

Suja

I grown variegated ribbon grass in an area such as you describe. I think it
will grow ANYWHERE!

clc wrote:

I grown variegated ribbon grass in an area such as you describe. I think it
will grow ANYWHERE!

It is considered invasive, and I'm trying to stay away from plants I
need to do battle with. I have my hands full with Japanese Anemone
Robustissima (losing battle), Scabiosa ochroleuca, Knautia, etc.

Suja

On Fri, 24 Jan 2003 11:13:44 -0500, Suja wrote:


clc wrote:

I grown variegated ribbon grass in an area such as you describe. I think it
will grow ANYWHERE!

It is considered invasive, and I'm trying to stay away from plants I
need to do battle with. I have my hands full with Japanese Anemone
Robustissima (losing battle), Scabiosa ochroleuca, Knautia, etc.

Suja

Yes, ribbon grass is very invasive. Have you considered Chasmanthium
litifolium aka Inland sea oats? I grow them here in calciferous soil in pretty
dense shade and it does very well. It will reseed, but is not terribly invasive
in my shade bed. It is a very hardy plant.

In article , Suja
wrote:

Before I actually order these plants and put them in the ground, I need
a reality check from those who have actual experience with them. I am
putting in a shade bed in front of the house (North facing, with morning
sun in the summer), and this is my short list of the plants I'm planning
on getting. The soil is clay (but amended), zone 6b/7a, Northern VA.
If I have left out anything that is a MUST HAVE for a shade garden (no
hostas please, deer problem; much as I'd love to have Brunnera 'Jack
Frost', I can't afford it right now), please let me know.

Short
Epimedium Sulphureum

Always lovely, evergreen in zone 8 though scruffy by winter's end, I
suppose it would die back in zone 6. Photo of its leaves in one of the
prettiest moments on this page:
http://www.paghat.com/epimedium.html

Heuchera 'Persian Carpet'

Don't recognize the specific cultivar but heucheras tend to need more sun
than shade. But are adaptable & will tolerate shade, though may remain
mediocre plants the first two years taking longer to establish good root
system, but thereafter can have spectacular leaf traits seasonally
changing colors -- minor for bloom usually though some cultivars' tall
spray of teency blooms are bright pink so have a bit more presence.

Dicentra Exima 'Snowdrift'

Hardier than the dickens & easily spread themselves about. Ideal shade
plants but also do well in considerable light, so can be put anywhere.
Long bloom period right up to winter then brief period of die-back.
Doesn't die back in summer unless in a sunny dry location, where it can be
surprisingly drought hardy even so & will return with autumn rains. I've a
page for it he
http://www.paghat.com/dicentraeximia.html

Athyrium nipponicum 'Pictum'

Easy to establish, extremely cold-hardy, unique blue-green leaves make it
a high fern choice, though the deeper the shade the less bluishness to the
color so it needs a bit of light to look unique. Of the many ferns in my
gardens, though, the hands-down favorite is Polystichum polyblepharum,
Japanese Tassel Fern. In my zone (8) it is fully evergreen; it thrives
down to zone 6 without even stretching the point, but I don't know whether
or not it would have the same sure winter presence. Even without the
strong evergreen quality, though, it is just a beautiful-beautiful fern,
deepest shiny green, & when it has the young leaf "tassels," oooo. Here's
my page for it:
http://www.paghat.com/tasselfern.html

Missing from your fuller list are any corydalises. Many of them do
spectacularly in your zone & are as lively as Dicentra exima with even
odder bright long-lasting blooms. But off the top of my head I can only
think of ones for my zone 8, but you should look up ones that do well for
your zone. I presently have four corydalis species plus cultivars within
species -- & won't hesitate to add others. For a shade guarden I put them
WAY ahead of heucheras, tiarellas, dicentras. One that does well in my
garden but is actually more appropriate for your zone is C. lutea shown
he
http://www.paghat.com/corydalisyellow.html

Two superb short evergreen shrubs for shade are wintergreen & lingonberry,
your zone would suit them excellently. Wintergreen flowers & berries are
best in considerable shade (I have a long patch that starts in deep shade,
ends in morning sun, & the morning sun end has remained comparatively
stunted while the stuff in shade has spread & grown a great deal).
Wintergreen is slow spread at first, especially if you start with 4" pots
of it, but once established, a lush little groundcover with great seasonal
leaf colorations, small white bell-flowers, & large bright edible berries.
My page for it is he
http://www.paghat.com/wintergreen.html
By comparison Lingonberry establishes very quickly & spreads considerably,
except the ultra-dwarf kind that stays an inch or two tall, that one seems
to spread awfully slowly, but the foot-tall ones spread fast. They flower
twice a year; they don't berry as well in deep shade so need light shade.
Both of these shade evergreens are ultra cold hardy with year-round
presence, so when the majority of things you've listed have died back,
there's still these little berry-bright evergreens going gung ho. Page for
it he
http://www.paghat.com/lingonberry.html

Shade gardening is just the most fun. I do a lot of sun-gardening at the
fringe of the property, but the interior gardens & walk-throughs are under
trees & tall shrubs & just so comfortable to wander amidst. Spring through
autumn it is massively densely green & flowery, but I've enough
winter-oriented things that it is even great right now -- the Cyclamen
coums are blooming right this minute (other cyclamens bloomed earlier in
winter or late autumn), & hellebores are at the beginning of full bloom
(these blooms last & last & last), the final snowberries are still on the
branches though most have fallen to the ground by now, the wintergreen is
ultra-colorful, & Corydalis flexusa which died back late in summer grew
back gorgeously in autumn & is still a vibrant ferny-leafed presence for
the height of winter. So though the dicentras & some other corydalis
species & some few of the ferns & suchlike died to the ground, there's
still enough lively plant presence that it is by no means moribund in
winter. Plus the larger deciduous vines & shrubs pretty much across the
board have excellent shapes & barks for winter. I worry a bit about my
partner insisting we move to zone 5/6 where I wouldn't be able to garden
year-round, but even there choices can be made that provide winter beauty
rather than complete die-back of everything in the shade -- & if I lived
in a place with a long period of snow, there are a few things I'd plant
all over the place that don't live in zone 8, such as terrestrial orchids,
most of which want a three our four month dormancy under snow, which my
zone just cannot naturally provide (though I'm going to try Yellow Lady
Slipper anyway, the most adaptable in a purely temperate area).

-paghat the ratgirl

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
See the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com/

In article , Suja
wrote:

Pam wrote:

Since the planting you describe is pretty much entirely herbaceous
perennials, I'd consider adding something a little more evergreen to provide
winter interest. Perhaps some Iris foetidissima, additional heucheras, an
evergreen shade grass and some EG ferns and maybe a hellebore or two?

Well, the plan was to add some broadleaf evergreen shrubs for winter
interest. The problem is that I can't add anything to the list without
dropping something (total of about 60 plants, so I really have to
restrict myself some so this doesn't end up looking completely
haphazard). Any suggestions for shade tolerant grasses? The only thing
I could think of was carex (no liriope - I *hate* it), and its structure
doesn't really appeal to me.

Suja

One problem with adding the larger shrubs last is you'll disrupt or have
to entirely remove the low-growing perennials after they've worked so hard
to establish their root systems, & some of them will hate that & will take
a long time to reestablish their own roots. I'm not as much a grass fan
(though I do love lily turfs), which is why I suggested wintergreen &
lingonberry for their continuing winter presence.

Pam's suggestion of Iris foetidissima I would second -- I assume she knows
it'll do as well in your zone as in ours. I have two varieties, the
regular red-berrying one, & a yellow-orange berrying-one from Heronswood
(using the term "berry" rather loosely). It can be slow to establish but
that just means you have a large swordblade evergreen of considerable
beauty & none of the bright berries for the first three or four years,
unless you obtain an awfully big specimen to start with. I do like
liriopes, but if your problem with it is L. spicita can become weedy &
aggressive, you might ponder L. muscari "Lilac Beauty" which remains a
tight evergreen clump (I suspect both these liriopes would suffer winter
tip damage in your zone, but don't have personal experience). I'd still
rate black mondo grass more highly (Ophiopogon planiscapus 'Nigrescens').
These photos of mine are a couple years old:
http://www.paghat.com/mondo.html
It took a while, but eventually these little clumps began to spread. Young
plants erupt about a foot away from the parent & form their own little
clump. If I don't like exactly where they spring up, they don't mind being
moved, but for the most part they make good choices for themselves. And so
far as I know, they are not going to have winter tip damage even in zone
6a.

-paghat

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
See the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com/

I will admit up front that yours was one of the pages I used as
inspiration. I kept getting hit after hit when I was researching
plants, so I stayed a bit.

paghat wrote:

Heuchera 'Persian Carpet'

It's between that and 'Cathedral Windows'. Both can be found at
bluestoneperennials.

Don't recognize the specific cultivar but heucheras tend to need more sun
than shade. But are adaptable & will tolerate shade,

I am hoping that there is enough morning sun to pull them through. They
should get a good 4 hours.

though may remain
mediocre plants the first two years taking longer to establish good root
system, but thereafter can have spectacular leaf traits seasonally
changing colors

That's good to know. I can be extremely impatient with my plants.

Dicentra Exima 'Snowdrift'

Hardier than the dickens & easily spread themselves about. Ideal shade
plants but also do well in considerable light, so can be put anywhere.
Long bloom period right up to winter then brief period of die-back.
Doesn't die back in summer unless in a sunny dry location, where it can be
surprisingly drought hardy even so & will return with autumn rains.

Good. I love the way it looks. I have lots of woodland gardening to do
(about 4 acres worth), so the babies can be put to good use.

Athyrium nipponicum 'Pictum'

Easy to establish, extremely cold-hardy, unique blue-green leaves make it
a high fern choice, though the deeper the shade the less bluishness to the
color so it needs a bit of light to look unique. Of the many ferns in my
gardens, though, the hands-down favorite is Polystichum polyblepharum,
Japanese Tassel Fern. In my zone (8) it is fully evergreen; it thrives
down to zone 6 without even stretching the point, but I don't know whether
or not it would have the same sure winter presence. Even without the
strong evergreen quality, though, it is just a beautiful-beautiful fern,
deepest shiny green, & when it has the young leaf "tassels," oooo. Here's
my page for it:
http://www.paghat.com/tasselfern.html

That looks yummy. I'll look into it.

Missing from your fuller list are any corydalises.

Thanks. I wrestled with that decision a great deal. I'll revisit it.

species -- & won't hesitate to add others. For a shade guarden I put them
WAY ahead of heucheras, tiarellas, dicentras. One that does well in my
garden but is actually more appropriate for your zone is C. lutea shown
he

I really wanted that particular Corydalis. My biggest problem has been
finding a source for it. I know that none of the local nurseries carry
it, and neither do the ones I am planning on ordering from (Bluestone,
Munchkins, Crownsville, Plant Delights). The only one I know that
carries it is Nicholls, but if I spread my order around too much, I'll
end up paying more in shipping than in plant material. I'll see if I
can shuffle my plants around a bit to get this one in.

Most of the shrubs I was planning on using are taller, although I'll
look into the ones you mentioned. I was thinking more along the lines
of leucothoe, Azaleas, Hydrangeas, etc., but haven't finalized the list
yet.

Shade gardening is just the most fun. I do a lot of sun-gardening at the
fringe of the property, but the interior gardens & walk-throughs are under
trees & tall shrubs & just so comfortable to wander amidst.

I really enjoy gardening in the sun, because it doesn't require a whole
lot of thinking/planning on my part. I am much more of a flower person
than a foliage person, and that is so much easier to do in the sun than
shade. My first shade bed that I started 2 years ago is still very much
a work in progress (I've made some huge mistakes there, misjudging
requirements, heights, etc.), and I am hoping that I've learned enough
to make this one be less painful. I must admit that I'm putting a lot
more thought into this than anything I've done previously.

Thanks so much,
Suja

paghat wrote:

One problem with adding the larger shrubs last is you'll disrupt or have
to entirely remove the low-growing perennials after they've worked so hard
to establish their root systems, & some of them will hate that & will take
a long time to reestablish their own roots. I'm not as much a grass fan
(though I do love lily turfs), which is why I suggested wintergreen &
lingonberry for their continuing winter presence.

I guess I wasn't clear. The shrubs will get planted with everything
else. I'm still working on which ones those should be. Trying to put
together a list of everything I really, really want had me going in
circles, so I decided to make one list up, get done with it, and then
make the other one up. Since I'll have more perennials than shrubs, I
thought that should get done first.

I will take a look at I.foetidissima and black mondo grass. I'm not a
big Iris fan in general, but anything that provides year round interest
would be a great addition.

Suja

Suja wrote:

paghat wrote:

One problem with adding the larger shrubs last is you'll disrupt or have
to entirely remove the low-growing perennials after they've worked so hard
to establish their root systems, & some of them will hate that & will take
a long time to reestablish their own roots. I'm not as much a grass fan
(though I do love lily turfs), which is why I suggested wintergreen &
lingonberry for their continuing winter presence.

I guess I wasn't clear. The shrubs will get planted with everything
else. I'm still working on which ones those should be. Trying to put
together a list of everything I really, really want had me going in
circles, so I decided to make one list up, get done with it, and then
make the other one up. Since I'll have more perennials than shrubs, I
thought that should get done first.

I will take a look at I.foetidissima and black mondo grass. I'm not a
big Iris fan in general, but anything that provides year round interest
would be a great addition.

Suja

IMO, the iris looks more like a grass than it does a lot of other irises. It is
grown primarily for its valuable trait of being evergreen and readily adaptable
to dry shade and the brightly colored and long lasting fruit - the flowers are
quite insignifcant as irises go. I grow two different cultivars, too - the
straight species and a variegated one, both produce bright, red orange,
berry-like seeds. Mondo grass - regardless of color - is a great shade
grass-looking plant. The black is just such a striking contrast against anything
in the gold or chartreuse tones. Other than certain species of Carex, there are
really no evergreen grasses for shade. Some really nice deciduous ones, though -
Hakone grass, golden wood rush (Milium). Molinea. They'd add a lot of color
during the growing season.

pam

"Suja" wrote in message
...

Before I actually order these plants and put them in the ground, I need
a reality check from those who have actual experience with them. I am
putting in a shade bed in front of the house (North facing, with morning
sun in the summer), and this is my short list of the plants I'm planning
on getting. The soil is clay (but amended), zone 6b/7a, Northern VA.
If I have left out anything that is a MUST HAVE for a shade garden (no
hostas please, deer problem; much as I'd love to have Brunnera 'Jack
Frost', I can't afford it right now), please let me know.

Short
Epimedium Sulphureum
Heuchera 'Persian Carpet'
Dicentra Exima 'Snowdrift'
Athyrium nipponicum 'Pictum'

Medium
Astrantia 'Hadspen Blood'

Love it, it does really well for me in 4 hours of sun.


Anemone 'Honorine Jobert'

Love it, but after it settles in it will gently spread a little and need to
managed. Not a real spreader, but vigorous enough that if allowed to spread
it will crowd out other plants.


Thelypteris Kunthii
Tricyrtis hirta

Another good one. Forms lovely clumps.

A must have for the shade garden is Celandine Poppy (stylophorum diphyllum)
it blooms for me from June to Sept. It's not the most floriferous plant but
keeps on trucking providing pretty bright yellow flowers.

And don't forget Aquilegia (Columbine), mine get 4 hours on the best day and
bloom like crazy. The little wild orange type grows wild on a hill under
deciduous trees in my yard getting hardly any sun at all.

--
Kristen
Zone 6, SE NY

On Sat, 25 Jan 2003 03:09:50 GMT, Pam wrote:



IMO, the iris looks more like a grass than it does a lot of other irises. It is
grown primarily for its valuable trait of being evergreen and readily adaptable
to dry shade and the brightly colored and long lasting fruit - the flowers are
quite insignifcant as irises go. I grow two different cultivars, too - the
straight species and a variegated one, both produce bright, red orange,
berry-like seeds. Mondo grass - regardless of color - is a great shade
grass-looking plant. The black is just such a striking contrast against anything
in the gold or chartreuse tones. Other than certain species of Carex, there are
really no evergreen grasses for shade. Some really nice deciduous ones, though -
Hakone grass, golden wood rush (Milium). Molinea. They'd add a lot of color
during the growing season.

pam

The iris you sent to me as a little plant now covers an area of at least 10
square feet and they've been in the ground for what, 2 years? I definitely like
the red fruit and their evergreen swords!

V

In article ,
(paghat) writes:

here are a few things I'd plant
all over the place that don't live in zone 8, such as terrestrial orchids,

Paghat
Have you tried Bletilla striata?
It does very well here in NorCal zone 8
pink-purple and white
Emilie

In article ,
(MLEBLANCA) wrote:

In article ,
(paghat) writes:

here are a few things I'd plant
all over the place that don't live in zone 8, such as terrestrial orchids,

Paghat
Have you tried Bletilla striata?
It does very well here in NorCal zone 8
pink-purple and white
Emilie

I just looked at the page for it at Kemper Center website, & it looks
gorgeous & will even naturalize. I remember these were offered by a grower
at the Rhododendron Species Foundation (who also sold trilliums) but I
knew nothing about them & got too focused on shrubs to pay close attention
to anything else -- they stick in mind though because that vendor sold off
his entire stock in about ten minutes & I once it was too late I had a
sneaking suspicion I should've paid closer attention. I'd never looked
them up until just now to see if they'd fit my shade garden schemes, &
they sure would. So definitely something I'll get now that it has been
brought to my attention. Thanks!

-paghat

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
See the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com/