On 25 Jan 2003 14:22:30 GMT, (IntarsiaCo) wrote:



The 103rd Christmas Bird Count clearly refutes your claim, in particular, there
are plenty of American Crows in DC. One must not believe EVERYTHING one reads,
a bit of COMMON SENSE is required to separate the wheat from the chaff.
Cheers,
Mark

Maybe, but there is no disputing that crows are susceptible to WNV.

Maybe, but there is no disputing that crows are susceptible to WNV.


My daughter worked in the patho lab at UConn and has done the assays, no
dispute here.

In article ,
(IntarsiaCo) wrote:

Sometime in October 2002 Paghat claimed:
"If the West Nile encephalitis continues to eradicate crows, which are
particularly vulnerable to the virus & have already vanished entirely from
some infected east coast cities, a great many people who once complained
of these wonderful intelligent birds will be awfully sorry, remembering
their bold antics fondly."



The 103rd Christmas Bird Count clearly refutes your claim, in
particular, there
are plenty of American Crows in DC. One must not believe EVERYTHING one reads,
a bit of COMMON SENSE is required to separate the wheat from the chaff.
Cheers,
Mark

First of all, IF crows made a miraculous comeback & WNV was no longer a
problem, that'd be good news unreleated to my degree of common sense, so
amusing you'd take a quote out of context & then without credible basis
turn it into a flame rather than share something you spotted in the news.
Clearly you were chary of citing specifics since it would not otherwise
fit your desire to flame rather than share useful or creditable
information.

Would-be debunkers, meaning chaff such as yourself, should strive to read
a wee-bit more carefully to not make a fool of yourself, since the
documention of crows vanishing en masse was never for the entire city of
Washington DC but for Brookland DC area only; & this was taken as a highly
worrisome indicator of things to come, not as proof that crow extinction
is broadly inevitable, merely possible. Unlike you, I do apply common
sense, & will be happy if crows are able to weather this extreme crisis,
but for the moment the North American bird population, & crows in
particular, are at the beginning, not the end, & not even the middle of a
clear crisis.

The die-off has been milder elsewhere, including elsewhere in DC, but
Brookland is feared to be at the vanguard for something only just now
building steam. Because crow populations can remain in their own isolated
communities, the impact has to be assessed neighborhood by neighborhood, &
the Brookland population had been longest infected. Now if the Brookland
crows DO make a come-back, that would be great news -- I've not seen any
updated report so don't know if new populations have moved in to fill the
niches vacated by the Brookland die-off. Whether or not that happens would
not be related to my degree of common sense, would not say a lot about the
WNV threat to crows, but it would be good news if such news existed.

Audubon crow counts aren't scientific & there is nothing to stop YOU from
calling in & reporting your latest flying pink elephant sighting; plus, in
the past, many annual counts were from people who automatically including
everything EXCEPT pigeons & crows, but now crows are more on everyone's
mind. But even the unreliable Audobon "back yard count" have indicated
(less extremely than some scientific field research) that there is a mild
decline in crow population along the eastern seaboard & midwest, but not
yet for the west coast which was last to be infected or is not yet widely
infected at all; the west coast could be five years behind the curve, &
west coast occurrences are just a foreshadowing. When more people
participate in the annual count, the more birds get counted -- it's to too
great an extent just a back yard count after all, & this year Audobon got
more news-coverage in the week leading up to the counting period than
usual, so an unusually high number of people phoned in, & as always, if
you're such an amateur you can't even tell a raven from a crow from a
starling, there is no way for your count to be discounted. But the point
for statistics is this: Even if the Audobon count were assumed to have a
high degree of accuracy, it remains, if a given neighborhood has 50 people
who phone in an average of 20 birds apiece in one year, & in the next year
500 people phone in an average of ten birds appiece, the total may look
vastly higher but the ratio would be half, & indicative of a horrific
decline.

Even so, whad did the AUDUBON society ITSELF conclude? The obvious: John
Bianchi speaking Dec 2002 for the society nationally: "This year, West
Nile Virus seems to have had a larger impact on U.S. bird populations than
in years past." Bianchi also pointed out that it was cruciel for the
regional organizers to undertake the count EXACTLY as it had been taken in
past years, or no comparisons to previous year counts would reveal
anything whatsoever about WVN impacts. Sadly it was not undertaken as in
past years, but the largest number of people who had never counted before
participated & skewed all results. Also the education packets for people
who sign on for the count far enough in advance did not meet demand, so
there wasn't even the usual inadequate degree of preparation. The Society
is certainly not attempting on any level to use the winter bird count as
indicating WNV is anything short of an extravagant threat to crows, jays,
ravens, hawks, owls, & eagles -- these are the most suscpetible
populations, & crows are still #1 -- over three times as many crows have
fallen prey to WNV than all other birds combined (& that's the science
conducted by Bunning, not regional club surmises).

So COMMON SENSE suggests you personally should not place so much weight on
the VERY LITTLE YOU KNOW about it, with even that teency bit either
misprepresented or misremembered by yourself. If you can give a CITATION
that indicates crows are making the fabulous comeback in Brookland, great,
I'll read that report happily & hope for similarly great news nationwide.
It wouldn't change anything I reported previously, but it would be new
information worth attending. Alas, you have no information worth
attending, do ya.

Hhere is just one opinion vastly better drawn that yours, from Raymond
Adams, MAS research committee chair for the study of avian mortality due
to West Nile Virus. It's significance Adams' opinion is based on a deep &
growing body of knowledge & ongoing research nationwide, & typical of
ANYone well grounded in this recent problem, Adams' degree of concern is
fairly great because of what he likens "heavy mortality" among these
birds, to whit to woo:

"My concern for American Crows and other North American bird species
arises from the high incidence of mortality of individual birds infected
by the virus in this country. The American Crow, Blue Jay, some owls and
hawks are especially prone to this disease. West Nile Virus outbreaks with
heavy mortality of birds are largely unknown within the original
geographic range of the virus. In North America, large outbreaks in birds
associated with heavy mortality (epizootics) occurred in 1999 and 2002. In
recent weeks, nature centers, animal control offices and offices of the
Michigan Department of Natural Resources have been inundated with
telephone calls regarding dead and dying birds. In my 33 years at the
Kalamazoo Nature Center, our facility has never received this many reports
of dead and dying birds during the summer. By 23 August 2002 the hotline
had logged 6576 calls regarding dead or dying birds. Of these, 3132 were
from just 3 counties. Help is needed on several fronts. Anyone seeing dead
or dying crows should report the observation to the Michigan hot line for
the West Nile Virus by accessing
http://www.nwhc.usgs.gov/research/we...west_nile.html "

To date no DEFINITIVE answer about the future fate of crows & raptors is
possible & my sounding an alarm is only what all health, wildlife, & bird
organizatiosn are doing with sound indicators for what is very possibly
going to occur over the next five years: more mass die-offs of crows
foremost among birds. The Washington Post article that suggested crows are
going to go the way of the Passenger Pigeon, with the Brookland die-off
underscoring the worst-case scenario, is not yet a given. It is a worry.
That you're not worried about it is largely because you're not bright
enough to follow the issue, or really don't care.

On the final fate of the crows & the science is still beginning to gather
data, & it remains that in too many regions there is no sound science
being conducted at all, so that to too great an extant people are still
reliant on amateur bird counts, or thoroughly uncontrolled world wide web
reports such as anyone can leave at www.birdsource.org/gbbc. This is
regarded by the Audobon Society itself as the "Surveillance Stage" & not
of scientific value. The Surveillance nevertheless has a high priority for
the very reason that it is regarded as an emerging crisis of the highest
order, & SOME preliminary indicators are needed to heighten scientific
interest -- in such a light, the GBBC project is regarded
"better'n'nothing" rather than really something.

Many wildlife & health organizations are collecting dead birds from the
public to establish causes of death, & more data is published each month
(though not on the web for easy access). Up to now it remains that for
bird populations as a whole, the single largest cause of death (by far!)
is pesticides, so non-organic gardeners & agriculturalists remain birds'
worst enemies. But for crows per se, & for a growing percentage of
raptors, & especially in the longest-infected areas including specific
areas of NYC & Washington DC, the chief cause of death is already WNV.
And that vaunted "common sense" suggests it will get worse; only profound
ignorance concludes it isn't even a problem.

-paghat the ratgirl

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
See the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com/

In article ,
(IntarsiaCo) wrote:

And that vaunted "common sense" suggests it will get worse; only profound
ignorance concludes it isn't even a problem.

Over 1100 areas have reported in, there are crows everywhere, you figure
it out
for yourself. There is no crow crisis.

You have gone below even my low estimation of your ability to reason!

I'm done with you now dearie.

If you're done, time to take your baked head out of the oven.

-paggers

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
See the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com/

And that vaunted "common sense" suggests it will get worse; only profound
ignorance concludes it isn't even a problem.

Over 1100 areas have reported in, there are crows everywhere, you figure it out
for yourself. There is no crow crisis.
I'm done with you now dearie.

And that vaunted "common sense" suggests it will get worse; only profound
ignorance concludes it isn't even a problem.

Over 1100 areas have reported in, there are crows everywhere, you figure it
out
for yourself. There is no crow crisis.
I'm done with you now dearie.






Just because in your mind they are every where doesn't mean they aren't in
danger and decreasing in numbers. You may want to subscribe to the Audubon
Society, The NWF, The Nature Conservatory and the Environmental Defense Fund
(all have online notifications) and get yourself informed first. ) Ignorance
kills me.
Colleen
Zone 5 Connecticut
Colleen

I don't know what the fight's about--but I'm here to tell you that I've
noticed a LOT less crows here in Baltimore Maryland. We used to have them
in such abundance it looked like the Hitchcock movie. They'd caw so loudly
you'd have to cover your ears. I can't remember the last time I noticed a
flock (?) of crows!

"GrampysGurl" wrote in message
...

And that vaunted "common sense" suggests it will get worse; only
profound
ignorance concludes it isn't even a problem.

Over 1100 areas have reported in, there are crows everywhere, you figure
it
out
for yourself. There is no crow crisis.
I'm done with you now dearie.






Just because in your mind they are every where doesn't mean they aren't in
danger and decreasing in numbers. You may want to subscribe to the Audubon
Society, The NWF, The Nature Conservatory and the Environmental Defense
Fund
(all have online notifications) and get yourself informed first. )
Ignorance
kills me.
Colleen
Zone 5 Connecticut
Colleen

I don't know what the fight's about--but I'm here to tell you that I've
noticed a LOT less crows here in Baltimore Maryland. We used to have them
in such abundance it looked like the Hitchcock movie. They'd caw so loudly
you'd have to cover your ears. I can't remember the last time I noticed a
flock (?) of crows!

Knowing the rate we are losing crows to WNV here in Connecticut, there is NO
WAY it isn't adversely effecting the crow population; it's only going to get
much worse before it gets better if it ever does. It is amazing what our
wildlife goes through world wide and ignorance is the cause of more deaths then
anything. I could spout off a few other organizations but I highly doubt many
of us are gardening in the oceans lol.
Colleen
Zone 5 Connecticut

I wanna walk and not run, I wanna skip and not fall.
I wanna look at the horizon, and not see a building standing tall.
I wanna be the only one, for miles and miles; except for maybe you and your
simple smiles. -Dixie Chicks

"Betsy" -0 expounded:

I don't know what the fight's about--but I'm here to tell you that I've
noticed a LOT less crows here in Baltimore Maryland. We used to have them
in such abundance it looked like the Hitchcock movie. They'd caw so loudly
you'd have to cover your ears. I can't remember the last time I noticed a
flock (?) of crows!

Actually, there are far fewer crows around here, even. I've only seen
one this past month, and that was the first one I'd seen in many
months. And blue jays, too, they've just finally appeared after a
long absence. WNV obviously killed a few around here, too.

--
Ann, Gardening in zone 6a
Just south of Boston, MA
********************************

"Betsy" -0 wrote in message
...
I don't know what the fight's about--but I'm here to tell you that I've
noticed a LOT less crows here in Baltimore Maryland. We used to have them
in such abundance it looked like the Hitchcock movie. They'd caw so
loudly
you'd have to cover your ears. I can't remember the last time I noticed a
flock (?) of crows!

I never thought about it much until reading this thread, but here in
Mont.Co. MD, NE of DC and SW of Baltimore, there does seem to be a lot less
of them.
Of coarse I don't have any documentation to prove it.
David, zone 7, Olney MD

Xref: news7 rec.gardens:206768


"Betsy" -0 wrote in message
...
I don't know what the fight's about--but I'm here to tell you that I've
noticed a LOT less crows here in Baltimore Maryland. We used to have them
in such abundance it looked like the Hitchcock movie. They'd caw so
loudly
you'd have to cover your ears. I can't remember the last time I noticed a
flock (?) of crows!


That would be a "Murder of Crows"........is the correct descriptive word for
a large number of them....................if you ever saw them in hot
pursuit of an owl, you'd understand the symbolism.
madgardener, who for the moment has crows, blackbirds and possibly ravens,
but not quite sure on the latter and who also knows we've had reports last
summer of WNV.......

On 25 Jan 2003 14:22:30 GMT, (IntarsiaCo) wrote:

Sometime in October 2002 Paghat claimed:
"If the West Nile encephalitis continues to eradicate crows, which are
particularly vulnerable to the virus & have already vanished entirely from
some infected east coast cities, a great many people who once complained
of these wonderful intelligent birds will be awfully sorry, remembering
their bold antics fondly."

The 103rd Christmas Bird Count clearly refutes your claim, in particular, there
are plenty of American Crows in DC. One must not believe EVERYTHING one reads,
a bit of COMMON SENSE is required to separate the wheat from the chaff.

Perhaps this dispute can be traced to the term "eradicate" which means
both to eliminate entirely AND to kill in large numbers. With brief
Googling, I see no alerts that crows have been entirely eliminated,
but several showing they are unusually susceptible to WNV and many
have died from it. Also a happy note that while any new virus may
claim many victims, immunity begins to build and the high mortality
numbers drop off.

With brief
Googling, I see no alerts that crows have been entirely eliminated,
but several showing they are unusually susceptible to WNV and many
have died from it. Also a happy note that while any new virus may
claim many victims

See:
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/wi...4jan24,0,54408
43.story?coll=ny-ap-regional-wire

On 26 Jan 2003 13:36:23 GMT, (IntarsiaCo) wrote:

With brief
Googling, I see no alerts that crows have been entirely eliminated,
but several showing they are unusually susceptible to WNV and many
have died from it. Also a happy note that while any new virus may
claim many victims

See:
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/wi...4jan24,0,54408
43.story?coll=ny-ap-regional-wire



http://www.newsday.com/news/local/wi...,5440843.story



Regards,

tomj

"Non-violence leads to the highest ethics, which is the goal of all evolution.
Until we stop harming all other living beings, we are still savages."

- Thomas Edison

In article ,
(Frogleg) wrote:

On 25 Jan 2003 14:22:30 GMT, (IntarsiaCo) wrote:

Sometime in October 2002 Paghat claimed:
"If the West Nile encephalitis continues to eradicate crows, which are
particularly vulnerable to the virus & have already vanished entirely from
some infected east coast cities, a great many people who once complained
of these wonderful intelligent birds will be awfully sorry, remembering
their bold antics fondly."

The 103rd Christmas Bird Count clearly refutes your claim, in
particular, there
are plenty of American Crows in DC. One must not believe EVERYTHING one
reads,
a bit of COMMON SENSE is required to separate the wheat from the chaff.

Perhaps this dispute can be traced to the term "eradicate" which means
both to eliminate entirely AND to kill in large numbers. With brief
Googling, I see no alerts that crows have been entirely eliminated,
but several showing they are unusually susceptible to WNV and many
have died from it

The tone of the "dispute" was set by InterasiaCo's trollish desire for my
attention, or it wouldn't've been necessary to start a thread with my name
in it. Last year I noted the threat to crows (questioned by no one with a
measurable IQ) is slowly spreading westward, & cited the worst case yet
reported in the east as a harbinger of worse to come, namely the
eradication of crows in Brookland, Washington, DC, ascribed to West Nile
Virus. Our trolly weirdo thought that crow sitings anywhere in the USA
"debunked" not the Washington Post & NPR piece I quoted a few months back,
but that it debunked me personally, when of course it debunked nothing at
all, not even by misrepresenting what I'd reported -- though even the
out-of-context quote begins with the word "If" & the troll wasn't very
clever at such misrepresentation. Any ACTUAL report on the complete safety
of crows would have been cited specifically as good news, not alluded to
vaguely as a magical debunking principle.

At first it seemed InterasiaCo was actually just insane, brooding in
misery ever since I corrected his complete misunderstanding on the subject
months back, until he "broke" & flew off the handle months later. But it
slowly dawned on me that trolling really was the point, & since the goal
was to troll me personally by starting a thread under my name, & since I
responded, it can be counted a success trolling.

We would otherwise be asked to believe InterasiaCo is such a loony that it
really IS possible to believe such crazy-ass things as 1) Paghat is one &
the same with all news-services & health organizations; 2) a siting of any
crow anywhere in the USA proves that West Nile Virus never eradicated
crows anywhere, therefore 3) the WNV threat to crows & raptors is a hoax
perpetuated by hundreds of health organizations, wildlife organizations,
scientists, all orchestrated by Paghat, because 4) West Nile Virus does
not kill crows; & no doubt that 5) the earth is flat & battery acid makes
for a sparkling refreshing drink.

Realizing trolling really was the one & only purpose, it becomes less
surprising that the only "evidence" the troll provided as evidence for an
alternate viewpoint on WVN even existing -- is a link to a much-despised
& pointless "crow shooting contest" the goal of which was to disrupt a
famous crow roost then just discard the thousands of dead birds
(illegally) in the nearest dumpster. Well, I guess it is more creative &
less unhealthy for InterasiaCo to behave as a crazy-ass troll rather than
to just be crazy, as those would seem to be the only two possibilities.

Also a happy note that while any new virus may
claim many victims, immunity begins to build and the high mortality
numbers drop off.

This is certainly the hope for the crow population long-term, that any
crows & raptors surviving the pending or in-progress bird holocaust will
be the seed of a future population not susceptible to the disease. There
are presently only indicators & hypotheses. Worst case scenario,
extinction; best-case, adaptive immunity. In Africa the virus does not
kill many birds, & that's the hopeful indicator of what is possible.

-paghat the ratgirl

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
See the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com/