We're planning on having a 1000 ft2 flagstone patio installed. We
have received estimates for both a dry install with rock/stone(?) dust
and a mortored install. What are the pros and cons of each. We live
in Northern Virginia by Washington DC. We do have a large, mature
sugar maple that will be approximately 6 feet from one corner of the
patio. Our concerns are these roots and heave. We want a very flat
surface which leads us to mortored, but are afraid of cracking in the
cement due to the roots. We believe that we can repair any root
movement in a dry install, but worry about the overall flatness over a
period of time. Thoughts?

My pool deck is flagstone set on sand w/cement between the stones (I don't
know what you call it). It's only 3 years old and about 3/4 of the area
repaired needs to be repaired. The masons who fixed up some stone decking
for me last year said this type breaks down very quickly. I really wish I
paid the extra cash to have the stone set in cement.

--
Kristen
Zone 6, SE NY



"kellysheroes" wrote in message
m...
We're planning on having a 1000 ft2 flagstone patio installed. We
have received estimates for both a dry install with rock/stone(?) dust
and a mortored install. What are the pros and cons of each. We live
in Northern Virginia by Washington DC. We do have a large, mature
sugar maple that will be approximately 6 feet from one corner of the
patio. Our concerns are these roots and heave. We want a very flat
surface which leads us to mortored, but are afraid of cracking in the
cement due to the roots. We believe that we can repair any root
movement in a dry install, but worry about the overall flatness over a
period of time. Thoughts?

The area to be covered that was mentioned sounds big enough to have an
arc on the end of the sugar maple filled with decomposed granite the
color of flagstone and a root barrier put down. Less inpact on tree,
roots and hardscape.

kellysheroes wrote:
=

We're planning on having a 1000 ft2 flagstone patio installed. We
have received estimates for both a dry install with rock/stone(?) dust
and a mortored install. What are the pros and cons of each. We live
in Northern Virginia by Washington DC. We do have a large, mature
sugar maple that will be approximately 6 feet from one corner of the
patio. Our concerns are these roots and heave. We want a very flat
surface which leads us to mortored, but are afraid of cracking in the
cement due to the roots. We believe that we can repair any root
movement in a dry install, but worry about the overall flatness over a
period of time. Thoughts?

-- =

J Kolenovsky, A+, Network +, MCP
=F4=BF=F4 - http://www.celestialhabitats.com
=F4=BF=F4 - http://www.hal-pc.org/~garden/reference.html

KrisHur wrote in message
...
My pool deck is flagstone set on sand w/cement between the stones (I don't
know what you call it). It's only 3 years old and about 3/4 of the area
repaired needs to be repaired. The masons who fixed up some stone decking
for me last year said this type breaks down very quickly. I really wish I
paid the extra cash to have the stone set in cement.

--
Kristen
Zone 6, SE NY



"kellysheroes" wrote in message
m...
We're planning on having a 1000 ft2 flagstone patio installed. We
have received estimates for both a dry install with rock/stone(?) dust
and a mortored install. What are the pros and cons of each. We live
in Northern Virginia by Washington DC. We do have a large, mature
sugar maple that will be approximately 6 feet from one corner of the
patio. Our concerns are these roots and heave. We want a very flat
surface which leads us to mortored, but are afraid of cracking in the
cement due to the roots. We believe that we can repair any root
movement in a dry install, but worry about the overall flatness over a
period of time. Thoughts?


I can confirm Kristen's observation stones set in sand w/ mortared
joints. I built a patio this way myself, and there were cracks in the
mortar after less than a year. Having said that, the stones have remained
in place. Were I to do it again, I would use mortar reinforced with fibers.
I would bet the only way to absolutely prevent heave would be to either hack
out any underlying roots (the horror), or perhaps have a reinforced slab
poured and then set the stones in mortar on top of that. You mention "cut"
flagstone, which to me means cut into relatively small tile shapes. If that
is the case, I would strongly recommend mortared joints. Small tiles in
stone dust will probably start to rock when stepped on after a few years.
Good luck.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
"Each day is future history. So don't step lightly."
--Clive Cussler
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-

My pool deck is flagstone set on sand w/cement between the stones (I don't
know what you call it). It's only 3 years old and about 3/4 of the area
repaired needs to be repaired. The masons who fixed up some stone decking
for me last year said this type breaks down very quickly. I really wish I
paid the extra cash to have the stone set in cement.

Pool decks set on sand almost always have problems, whether it's
flagstone or pavers.

Jeff

On Mon, 27 Jan 2003 01:43:50 GMT, Jeff Cochran wrote:

My pool deck is flagstone set on sand w/cement between the stones (I don't
know what you call it). It's only 3 years old and about 3/4 of the area
repaired needs to be repaired. The masons who fixed up some stone decking
for me last year said this type breaks down very quickly. I really wish I
paid the extra cash to have the stone set in cement.

Pool decks set on sand almost always have problems, whether it's
flagstone or pavers.

Jeff

Really? My inground pool was installed in 1959, with a deck of pavers set on
sand. We pulled the whole thing up once and reset it after a flood washed over
the yard. That took one sweaty weekend for two people. Other than that, it's
been fine for over 40 years

My hot tub has a large patio surrounding it made up of 2x2 foot flagstones set
on 12" of patio base. It's been trouble free for 8 years.

BB

(kellysheroes) wrote:

We're planning on having a 1000 ft2 flagstone patio installed. We
have received estimates for both a dry install with rock/stone(?) dust
and a mortored install. What are the pros and cons of each. We live
in Northern Virginia by Washington DC. We do have a large, mature
sugar maple that will be approximately 6 feet from one corner of the
patio. Our concerns are these roots and heave.

How much frost heave is there? The roots will ba a problem.

We want a very flat
surface which leads us to mortored, but are afraid of cracking in the
cement due to the roots. We believe that we can repair any root
movement in a dry install, but worry about the overall flatness over a
period of time.

If the stones shift, which they may do, you just pry it up and
add or subtract sand under it. If the sand bed is properly
prepared (deep and well-compacted) there should be minimal
shifting.

One way to handle this would be a mortared install for most of
the way, then the part closest to the tree being set in sand.

Tsu

--
To doubt everything or to believe everything
are two equally convenient solutions; both
dispense with the necessity of reflection.
- Jules Henri Poincaré

"kellysheroes" wrote in message
m...
We're planning on having a 1000 ft2 flagstone patio installed. We
have received estimates for both a dry install with rock/stone(?) dust
and a mortored install. What are the pros and cons of each. We live
in Northern Virginia by Washington DC. We do have a large, mature
sugar maple that will be approximately 6 feet from one corner of the
patio. Our concerns are these roots and heave.

see:
http://www.biobarrier.com/

biobarrier is like a ribbon eother 12" or 20" or so wide

it comes in like 100 foot or larger rolls

you may be able to cut through the stability roots
(which usually can't grow any deeper than the 20" or so biobarrier ribbon
width)
on the side you fear,
right next to where the patio will be,
run the biobarrier in a trench,
seal it all back up,
then forget about it

you may also want to be cognizant of where any gutter downspouts are in
relation to the tree/patio, as water attracts roots, and you may be able to
reroute any such gutters or roof runoff etc. away from the patio and to an
area of the tree and yard that can best use the water


We want a very flat
surface which leads us to mortored, but are afraid of cracking in the
cement due to the roots.

biobarrier can stop this,
as i mention above

you will have to make the determination if it will apply to your situation
there is plenty of information available

We believe that we can repair any root
movement in a dry install, but worry about the overall flatness over a
period of time. Thoughts?

(kellysheroes) wrote in message om...
We're planning on having a 1000 ft2 flagstone patio installed. We
have received estimates for both a dry install with rock/stone(?) dust
and a mortored install. What are the pros and cons of each. We live
in Northern Virginia by Washington DC. We do have a large, mature
sugar maple that will be approximately 6 feet from one corner of the
patio. Our concerns are these roots and heave. We want a very flat
surface which leads us to mortored, but are afraid of cracking in the
cement due to the roots. We believe that we can repair any root
movement in a dry install, but worry about the overall flatness over a
period of time. Thoughts?
Cost is the main reason most people go with stone on sand or stone
dust base, with sand or crushed stone fill in the joints. I
personally like it better because to me it looks more natural. It
allows the deck to flex and heave without cracking. Done right it will
hold up for a long time. It may not stay as flat as those set in
concrete, but if done right the heaving shouldnt be very noticeable.
Some people dont like the loose fill since it will be floating around
some, stuck to bare feet, or moved around with heavy rains

A sand or dust base with mortored joints never has made sense to me.
Because it has a flexible base but a rigid fill, the deck will flex
and heave which will without fail crack the joints

A stone deck set on a well engineered concrete base will usually stay
flat and will not have loose fill floating around. It looks a little
cleaner and maybe a little more formal looking. It should be quite a
bit more expensive.

This is the case in my area(north Texas), if you live up north, I dont
have a clue about what frost heave does to these things.

Hope this helps,
Bryan

J Kolenovsky wrote in message ...
The area to be covered that was mentioned sounds big enough to have an
arc on the end of the sugar maple filled with decomposed granite the
color of flagstone and a root barrier put down. Less inpact on tree,
roots and hardscape.

kellysheroes wrote:


We're planning on having a 1000 ft2 flagstone patio installed. We
have received estimates for both a dry install with rock/stone(?) dust
and a mortored install. What are the pros and cons of each. We live
in Northern Virginia by Washington DC. We do have a large, mature
sugar maple that will be approximately 6 feet from one corner of the
patio. Our concerns are these roots and heave. We want a very flat
surface which leads us to mortored, but are afraid of cracking in the
cement due to the roots. We believe that we can repair any root
movement in a dry install, but worry about the overall flatness over a
period of time. Thoughts?

cool site

The option for selecting whether to use a mortared flagstone or a dry set
flagstone should be based on climate conditions. If you live in an area
which experiences considerable winter frost heave, the stones should be
mortared in place. If this is not the primary concern but there is the
potential from root disturbance, then go with the dry set - it is easier
to left and resettle. If the base is prepared correctly for either method
and the stones are properly laid and seated, there should be no
irregularities or unevenness in the surface of either method.

I live in an area where frost heaving is not a concern, but where tree
roots are a recurring issue. Nearly all of the patios and terraces I
specify in my designs have been laid using the dry set method. There have
never been any problems with settling or unevenness, except when roots
enter the picture. The stones can then be removed, adjustments made to
accommodate the roots and then re-laid. Very simple process.

pam - gardengal


kellysheroes wrote:

We're planning on having a 1000 ft2 flagstone patio installed. We
have received estimates for both a dry install with rock/stone(?) dust
and a mortored install. What are the pros and cons of each. We live
in Northern Virginia by Washington DC. We do have a large, mature
sugar maple that will be approximately 6 feet from one corner of the
patio. Our concerns are these roots and heave. We want a very flat
surface which leads us to mortored, but are afraid of cracking in the
cement due to the roots. We believe that we can repair any root
movement in a dry install, but worry about the overall flatness over a
period of time. Thoughts?

Thanks for all of the input. We're still digesting all of it. If it
helps, the sugar maple is about 28 inches in diameter with a weep line
of 35-40 feet.


(kellysheroes) wrote in message om...
We're planning on having a 1000 ft2 flagstone patio installed. We
have received estimates for both a dry install with rock/stone(?) dust
and a mortored install. What are the pros and cons of each. We live
in Northern Virginia by Washington DC. We do have a large, mature
sugar maple that will be approximately 6 feet from one corner of the
patio. Our concerns are these roots and heave. We want a very flat
surface which leads us to mortored, but are afraid of cracking in the
cement due to the roots. We believe that we can repair any root
movement in a dry install, but worry about the overall flatness over a
period of time. Thoughts?

You can do either, but a mortar inlay will be (well, should be) more costly
because the foundation must be very stable. This means digging deep and
removing soil, laying and compacting gravel and sand, then the flagstones.
With sand or crushed stone as your 'mortar', you don't need to dig as deeply
nor prepare the foundation as intensively.

Dave

"kellysheroes" wrote in message
m...
We're planning on having a 1000 ft2 flagstone patio installed. We
have received estimates for both a dry install with rock/stone(?) dust
and a mortored install. What are the pros and cons of each. We live
in Northern Virginia by Washington DC. We do have a large, mature
sugar maple that will be approximately 6 feet from one corner of the
patio. Our concerns are these roots and heave. We want a very flat
surface which leads us to mortored, but are afraid of cracking in the
cement due to the roots. We believe that we can repair any root
movement in a dry install, but worry about the overall flatness over a
period of time. Thoughts?

here is a good illustration of roots and concrete coexisting peacefully with
biobarrier as the intermediary:
http://www.biobarrier.com/biobinfo.html

there is no other way to create that peaceful coexistence,
to my knowledge


"kellysheroes" wrote in message
om...
Thanks for all of the input. We're still digesting all of it. If it
helps, the sugar maple is about 28 inches in diameter with a weep line
of 35-40 feet.


(kellysheroes) wrote in message
om...
We're planning on having a 1000 ft2 flagstone patio installed. We
have received estimates for both a dry install with rock/stone(?) dust
and a mortored install. What are the pros and cons of each. We live
in Northern Virginia by Washington DC. We do have a large, mature
sugar maple that will be approximately 6 feet from one corner of the
patio. Our concerns are these roots and heave. We want a very flat
surface which leads us to mortored, but are afraid of cracking in the
cement due to the roots. We believe that we can repair any root
movement in a dry install, but worry about the overall flatness over a
period of time. Thoughts?

kellysheroes wrote:

We're planning on having a 1000 ft2 flagstone patio installed.

Sure arty. You're fooling nobody!

I still post under my real handle
something you can't do. Who would read it?

NOBODY!

Even when you whip up the next Arty Clone
is doesn't last long cause we all see right
through you.

Like a Shit in underwear you shine right through!