Hi - Novice homeowner and gardener here

My husband and a friend followed the instructions in a HomeDepot book
to make a flagstone patio with the stones on/in sand - dug out 6
inches, put in 4 inches of gravel, laid down landscaping cloth to keep
weeds from growing through, then 2 inches of sand with the stones on
top.

Now we've discovered that it looks nice, but it's impossible to make
the stones stable - they wobble when you walk on them - and they have
hard, sharp edges - so someone was suggesting that we use some kind of
plants between the stones.

I've been reading here and other places, and seen creeping thyme and
corsican mint mentioned, as well as irish or scottish moss, korean
grass, etc. We're in Los Angeles, and the patio gets morning and
midday full sun, plus a little bit of late afternoon sun. My
questions a

1 - Will we need to dig up some/all of the sand and put soil back in?

2 - Which plants might tolerate more sand?

3 - How much (how deep) soil/sand do we need (given that the stones
are sitting on top of 2 inches of sand, with landscaping fabric
underneath)?

Thanks in advance for your advice/experiences!!

Anne

In my opinion you have two problems--the landscape cloth and the sand. The
landscape cloth is not really necessary, unless you are fighting some
hellacious kind of weed there. You removed most of the roots/seeds of any
potential weeds when you took out the topsoil, and there are few things that
will fight their way through gravel and solid flagstone. You can get weeds
in the cracks, of course, but it's much more likely that any weeds will
arrive as seeds landing on top. So to me, the landscape cloth doesn't serve
much of a purpose--but it is keeping the sand from settling into the gravel
and forming a solid base. The slipperiness of the cloth is a large part of
your problem.

The other part is the sand. I don't understand why it is always recommended
for this type of project. In my experience it always shifts around and is
unstable, plus ants love to nest in it. I much prefer fine gravel,
sometimes called stone dust or gravel dust. The sharp irregular edges of
the gravel bits lock into each other to form a much more solid base.

So if were my project, I would take up the stones--if they are irregularly
shaped, you could number them, and/or take pictures to aid in replacing
them. I would take up as much of the sand as practical, then tamp the
gravel base down well. I would relay the stones in a few inches of stone
dust, packing gravel in the cracks between the stones. Water it well, let
it settle a few days, and repack the cracks, and you should be good.

If you decide to plant in the cracks, and it does make for a lovely effect,
I've found that a surprising number of plants love to live in gravel, with
little or no soil added. Things like thymes and alpine strawberries love
the good drainage and cool root run the stones provide, and seem to subsist
on whatever organic debris finds its way in. It might be too hot for the
strawberries there, someone else can hopefully help with appropriate
planting suggestions for your climate.

Hope this helps,
Sue

Zone 6, Southcentral PA


"anne in los angeles" wrote in message
m...
Hi - Novice homeowner and gardener here

My husband and a friend followed the instructions in a HomeDepot book
to make a flagstone patio with the stones on/in sand - dug out 6
inches, put in 4 inches of gravel, laid down landscaping cloth to keep
weeds from growing through, then 2 inches of sand with the stones on
top.

Now we've discovered that it looks nice, but it's impossible to make
the stones stable - they wobble when you walk on them - and they have
hard, sharp edges - so someone was suggesting that we use some kind of
plants between the stones.

I've been reading here and other places, and seen creeping thyme and
corsican mint mentioned, as well as irish or scottish moss, korean
grass, etc. We're in Los Angeles, and the patio gets morning and
midday full sun, plus a little bit of late afternoon sun. My
questions a

1 - Will we need to dig up some/all of the sand and put soil back in?

2 - Which plants might tolerate more sand?

3 - How much (how deep) soil/sand do we need (given that the stones
are sitting on top of 2 inches of sand, with landscaping fabric
underneath)?

Thanks in advance for your advice/experiences!!

Anne

In article ,
(anne in los angeles) wrote:

Hi - Novice homeowner and gardener here

My husband and a friend followed the instructions in a HomeDepot book
to make a flagstone patio with the stones on/in sand - dug out 6
inches, put in 4 inches of gravel, laid down landscaping cloth to keep
weeds from growing through, then 2 inches of sand with the stones on
top.

Now we've discovered that it looks nice, but it's impossible to make
the stones stable - they wobble when you walk on them - and they have
hard, sharp edges - so someone was suggesting that we use some kind of
plants between the stones.

You should've used pea gravel, not gravel; the stones can't settle into
gravel. I suspect the "fix" is going to have to be to lift the stones &
put down a LOT more sand so the stones can stablize -- add some steer
manure or some fine-particle compost to the sand since you want it to
support "steppable" plants.

I've been reading here and other places, and seen creeping thyme and
corsican mint mentioned, as well as irish or scottish moss, korean
grass, etc. We're in Los Angeles, and the patio gets morning and
midday full sun, plus a little bit of late afternoon sun. My
questions a

1 - Will we need to dig up some/all of the sand and put soil back in?

Since the stones haven't stablized it looks like you'll have to lift them
anyway to add more sand, so that's your chance to mix it with loam to
better sustain the plants. Thyme & the false moss will do excellently in
the lots-of-sun conditions you describe, & won't require much watering to
remain green, though the scotch moss will require more watering than does
thyme to stay green.

2 - Which plants might tolerate more sand?

Thyme. It thrives in the crappiest conditions. It also has a lot of
varieties to choose from.

3 - How much (how deep) soil/sand do we need (given that the stones
are sitting on top of 2 inches of sand, with landscaping fabric
underneath)?

These plants don't root at all deeply so shallow soil will be okay. Maybe
a bit more sandy soil over pea-gravel (& no plastic cloth) would have been
better, but as you have it now, it will sustain such things as thyme or
the Scotch or Irish false mosses, which will even grow right over the
stones they need so little soil.

I wouldn't personally have used the barrier cloth, but it's done so no
biggie. The weed barrier will do nothing about weeds really; they will
spring up on top of the cloth completely unimpeded, plus some kinds of
weeds such as grasses & clovers just LOVE scotch moss as a seeding medium.

-paghat the ratgirl

Thanks in advance for your advice/experiences!!

Anne

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
See the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com/

2 - Which plants might tolerate more sand?

Thyme. It thrives in the crappiest conditions. It also has a lot of
varieties to choose from.

Look for lemon thyme. Thyme's great for walkways, because you will brush
against it and release the aroma. But be careful with that landscape
cloth. The previous owners of my house had a rock bed, which it took us
months to find because it was so overgrown. They used a landscape cloth,
and it seems the only purpose it's served has been to give grass
something to attach to, making it very difficult to remove either the
cloth or the grass.

Hi folks, I need some advice. I am new to News Group. How do I start a new
string ie how do I ask question different from what is being discussed?

"anne in los angeles" wrote in message
m...
Hi - Novice homeowner and gardener here

My husband and a friend followed the instructions in a HomeDepot book
to make a flagstone patio with the stones on/in sand - dug out 6
inches, put in 4 inches of gravel, laid down landscaping cloth to keep
weeds from growing through, then 2 inches of sand with the stones on
top.

Now we've discovered that it looks nice, but it's impossible to make
the stones stable - they wobble when you walk on them - and they have
hard, sharp edges - so someone was suggesting that we use some kind of
plants between the stones.

I've been reading here and other places, and seen creeping thyme and
corsican mint mentioned, as well as irish or scottish moss, korean
grass, etc. We're in Los Angeles, and the patio gets morning and
midday full sun, plus a little bit of late afternoon sun. My
questions a

1 - Will we need to dig up some/all of the sand and put soil back in?

2 - Which plants might tolerate more sand?

3 - How much (how deep) soil/sand do we need (given that the stones
are sitting on top of 2 inches of sand, with landscaping fabric
underneath)?

Thanks in advance for your advice/experiences!!

Anne

(anne in los angeles) wrote:

My husband and a friend followed the instructions in a HomeDepot book
to make a flagstone patio with the stones on/in sand - dug out 6
inches, put in 4 inches of gravel, laid down landscaping cloth to keep
weeds from growing through, then 2 inches of sand with the stones on
top.

Now we've discovered that it looks nice, but it's impossible to make
the stones stable - they wobble when you walk on them - and they have
hard, sharp edges - so someone was suggesting that we use some kind of
plants between the stones.

Plants will not help the wobble ... you might have forgotten to
compact the underlayment, or didn't make sure the stones were
levelled by adding or subtracting sand under one edge to
eliminate the wobble as you laid the stones.

To stabilize a stone, figure out which side you step on to get
the wobble. Pry up the stone on that side and move some sand
from under the middle of the stone toward the edge, or add sand..
Drop it down and test for wobble ... repeat as needed.

1 - Will we need to dig up some/all of the sand and put soil back in?

Just between the stones. The cloth layer will be a problem ...
you have to slice through it to let the roots through. A shop
vac is the easiest way to remove the sand for reuse.

3 - How much (how deep) soil/sand do we need (given that the stones
are sitting on top of 2 inches of sand, with landscaping fabric
underneath)?

Suck out the sand from between the stones, slice through the weed
fabric, mix the with an equal amount of potting soil (or more)
and replace it. Level the stones as described above, make sure
the cracks are solidly packed down, then plant the sprigs of
whatever a couple of weeks later, when you are sure of the
levelling and that the wobbles are gone.

Tsu

--
To doubt everything or to believe everything
are two equally convenient solutions; both
dispense with the necessity of reflection.
- Jules Henri Poincaré