"Don K" wrote in
:

I was being sarcastic. I'm not concerned about the toxicity
of aluminum or gold and I'm not going to avoid either one
just because someone comes up with an inconclusive factoid
that it may be toxic.

If the scientific or medical community ever makes a judgment
that these metals should be avoided, then I will listen. Until
then, it's just another crackpot idea for alarmists to get
themselves worked up over.

That's very well and good for yourself, but I'm glad people here are
willing to bring up "crackpot" ideas. I for one didn't know about the
possible detriments of plastic soda pop bottles and I'm glad I can make my
own decisions regarding consumption without relying on the "scientific or
medical" communities' opinion. I wonder if those people have decided if
smoking causes cancer or not yet. Are eggs good or bad for you? etc etc

Your car has a seat belt, it should be up to you and nobody else whether
you use it or not. You want to take the risk of not wearing it, that's
fine. Probably nothing's going to happen, but if something does, well, tsk
tsk.

-- Salty

"Salty Thumb" wrote in message
...
"Don K" wrote in
:

I was being sarcastic. I'm not concerned about the toxicity
of aluminum or gold and I'm not going to avoid either one
just because someone comes up with an inconclusive factoid
that it may be toxic.

If the scientific or medical community ever makes a judgment
that these metals should be avoided, then I will listen. Until
then, it's just another crackpot idea for alarmists to get
themselves worked up over.

That's very well and good for yourself, but I'm glad people here are
willing to bring up "crackpot" ideas. I for one didn't know about the
possible detriments of plastic soda pop bottles and I'm glad I can make my
own decisions regarding consumption without relying on the "scientific or
medical" communities' opinion. I wonder if those people have decided if
smoking causes cancer or not yet. Are eggs good or bad for you? etc etc

I, too, like to make my own decisions.
The post I was initially responding to, said, "anyone with aluminum
kitchen pots & utensils should toss them immediately".

Since there is no reputable scientific organization that has come to
the same conclusion, it qualifies as a crackpot advice.

Your car has a seat belt, it should be up to you and nobody else whether
you use it or not. You want to take the risk of not wearing it, that's
fine. Probably nothing's going to happen, but if something does, well,
tsk
tsk.

All reputable safety organizations recognize that seatbelts and similar
safety devices save lives and they generally recommend their use.
I concur, so I take that advice.

On the other hand, some people feel that if you step on a crack,
it breaks your mother's back. I don't feel that's been scientifically
proven, so I ignore that advice.

Don

"Don K" wrote in
:


I, too, like to make my own decisions.
The post I was initially responding to, said, "anyone with aluminum
kitchen pots & utensils should toss them immediately".

Since there is no reputable scientific organization that has come to
the same conclusion, it qualifies as a crackpot advice.

I agree, that if taken seriously, those remarks would be, well for a lack
of a better term, "crackpot". However, I took those remarks to be rather
sardonic, considering the other posts paghat had made in this particular
thread.

I still think it would be wise use a little discretion when drinking from
beverage containers that store acid, and even more so when scrutinizing
products containing things such as sodium aluminum phosphate.

On the other hand, some people feel that if you step on a crack,
it breaks your mother's back. I don't feel that's been scientifically
proven, so I ignore that advice.

Yes, arbitrary, fabricated relations such as that certainly don't deserve
much notice. However, since they did find aluminum in a significant
percentage of the brains of alzheimer's patients and could not say with a
certainty what the sources were, I would tend to err on the side of
caution. Of course I might go nuts and have a soda anyway, but I'd be glad
to be cognizant of the potential risks.

- Salty

In article , "Don K"
wrote:

I, too, like to make my own decisions.
The post I was initially responding to, said, "anyone with aluminum
kitchen pots & utensils should toss them immediately".
Since there is no reputable scientific organization that has come to
the same conclusion, it qualifies as a crackpot advice.

Depends on if you think some of the leading scientific institutions are
reputable. If you DO bother to base your decision on having actually
checked the scientific data, you will find many who doubt cans & pots can
be a source of the aluminum deposits in alzheimer brain tissue, but do
think it could be aluminates from medications, deodorants, antacids, etc;
others think it could be neither; still others think the door is wide open
for it to be either or both. Several studies do show categorically that
the aluminum enters the bloodstream then the brain tissue through diet,
with no source entirely ruled out. Now you may think it crackpot, but in
this case, I've read the studies or their abstracts, & wasn't relieved of
my sense that it's on the REASONABLE side of safety to avoid aluminum. So
I wouldn't cook in aluminum (not that I ever did), I won't drink from
aluminum cans, I won't use a an antacid with aluminates. Is it paranoid?
Not according to Dr. Barry Thomas whose Australian study showed
CONCLUSIVELY that aluminum ingested by rats accumulates in their brains.
Not paranoid according to gerontologist William Forbes of the University
of Waterloo whose 1995 study showed that a population exposed to aluminum
in their diet for 35 years had impaired mental functions 10 times higher
than in areas without the exposure (in this case it was a water treatment
method that included aluminum & ended up delivering trace amounts of
aluminum to the area's water supply).

An animal modeled study by Dr Ian Taylor of the Medical University of
South Carolina, Dr Peter Mannon of Duke University Medical Center, Fred
Boehem of the Trace Metal Division of the Great Smokies Diagnostic
Laboratory, et al, showed the mechanism by which aluminum enters the blood
system intestinally, then is deposited in the brains of mice. They believe
their findings provide a suitable model for further study of the same
mechanism increasing the intestinal absorption rate of aluminum in Downs
syndrome people & in alzheimer's sufferers.

Many similar studies have resulted in aluminum cookware being banned in
some European countries. Sensible political response? It would be
according to Hawley's Condensed Chemical Dictionary, which notes that
aluminum corodes into water that is heated 356 degrees. Furthermore, if
your water is flouridated, the flourine in water further corodes the
cookware.

There is no NO QUESTION but that man-made sources of aluminum are
associated with alzheimers. The only question is which or how many
possible sources are absorbed. The studies by Thomas, & by Forbes, as well
as a study by Dr. Paolo Prolo of the University of California at Los
Angeles (which institute you've apparently categorized as crackpot --
perhaps you'd rather rely on your own decision-making powers based on
something rumor of safety spread by aluminum industry) have shown
categorically that aluminum in the water supply is a key source of the
aluminum deposits in human brains & associated with dementia.. Dr. Prolo
however felt that the amount of aluminum from cookware was not yet proven
(not by his study). Paul found that death rates from Alzhiemers raised
signally in areas with aluminum in the water supply (both from water
treatment methods & naturally occurring bauxite among the trace metals),
so this does not speak to cookware or pop cans as sources, no similarly
large populations being available to single out as controls for exposure
vs non-exposure.

So the confusion (or the unwillingness of Alzheimer's researchers to
categorically condemn aluminum cookware) stems from the difficulty of
studying it separately, vs the ease of drawing stats from regions that
have added aluminates to the water system over time. Nevertheless, Dr.
Stephen Levick of the Yale University Medical Center was so creeped out by
his findings about aluminum that he threw away all his aluminum cookware
-- the KNOWLEDGEABLE want to be safe rather than sorry. Dr. John Koning of
the Riverside General Hospital in Corona California worried more about
antacids. And Dr. Creighton Phelps of the Alzheimer's Association says
only that WE KNOW aluminum has abnormally high deposits in the brains of
alzheimer sufferers, so make your decision accordingly.

Of course those medical practitioners are all crackpots in your
estimation. You're bound to prefer the opinion of the Aluminum Association
invested in protecting the can & cookware industry. They like to point out
that a single antacid tablet or buffered aspirin tablet delivers thousands
of times more medical grade aluminate to the system than all the aluminum
cookware you could use in a whole year. But their propaganda is a lie.
Here's the science: If you cook with aluminum, you add an estimated 3.5
milligrams of aluminum to your diet every day. That is one-third the
amount of pharmaceutical grade aluminate in a buffered aspirin, & a
fraction of the amount in the average antacid pill (which can have 50 mg
of aluminates). But it's still a hell of a lot of aluminum ingested from
cookware day in day out, & I personally never take buffered aspirin, never
take any antacid except Tums the one that includes no aluminates, & use an
aluminate-free deodorant since it is also possible to absorb aluminates
through the skin. If in fact most people take only a couple buffered
aspirins PER MONTH, that'd be ten or twenty milligrams of aluminates per
month, but if using aluminum cookware every day, that'd be 105 milligrams
per month. So even the way the Aluminum Association wants you to look at
it isn't very heartening to me. And less they get sued for lying, even the
Aluminum Association advocates NEVER cooking rhubarb or other acidic foods
in aluminum cookware, which increases the amount of aluminum in your diet
dramatically above the 3.5 milligrams daily they otherwise admit to.

The Aluminum Association is fond of this FDA quote: "There is no
information at this time that the normal dietary intake of aluminum [from
the] use of aluminum cookware, or from aluminum food additives or drugs,
is harmful." They're not fond of quoting the updated FDA stances, which
for instance BAN the use of aluminum coming in contact with dairy
products, this despite that the FDA is highly conservative & slow to act
in this kind of area.

What can be said today is that very few scientists believe the 3.5
milligrams daily intake of aluminum from use of aluminum cookware could be
the primary source of the aluminum in alzheimer brain cells, not when the
amount in medications or water supplies is so much greater. Professor
Leonard Berg at Washington School of Medicine in St Louis does not believe
getting rid of one's cookware would lower the daily aluminum exposure
enough to make one whit of difference. Does that mean the cookware has
been given a clean bill of health by those same scientists? Absolute not.
Most of whom followed Dr. Levick's lead & upgraded their cookware long
ago. Zaven S. Khachaturian of the Ronald & Nancy Reagon Alzheimer
Institute says it this way: "Unfortunately there is no clear-cut answer."
But Khachaturian's real point is that it is thus far unknown whether
aluminum exposure CAUSES alzheimers, or alzheimer's causes aluminum
absorption. The real question for these scientists would be "Do you use
aluminum cookware?" I worked a while at the University of Washington
Health Sciences as an medical editor, & was amused to discover that ALL
the researchers in a herpes study had become 100% monogomous -- just to be
on the safe side of something they came to find more & more horrifying --
so too I suspect that Dr. Levick's decision to toss out all his aluminum
cookware was not a novel decision among researchers.

Certainly there are many researchers whose opinion falls to the side of
the issue that pleases the Aluminum Association, & many such could be
cited. For me it's enough that many qualified experts believe the issue is
credible, & even the Aluminum Association "spin" ends up recommending not
to cook acidic foods in their products because of health risks.

So when YOU threw out the idea that GOLD is a toxin, YOU were apparently
being a crackpot, alarmist, or jester without much concern for facts. When
I threw out the possibility that it would be wise to toss one's aluminum
utensils, I had many sources of good science to base this very real
possibility upon. The bottom line is this: Is there proof that aluminum in
the diet is the source of the deposits of aluminum in alzheimer's brains?
The answer is a resounding YES! Is there proof the aluminum CAUSED the
alzheimers? There is not, just as there is no proof it did not cause it.
Yet a study reported in LANCET in 1985 found that trace amounts of
aluminum in the diets of infants caused retarded mental development, so
there's more to this than a side-effect of senile dementia. Is there proof
that any of this aluminum exposure comes from cookware? Yes, 3.5
milligrams per day if you use alumumum in your kitchen. Is there proof
that cutting back 3.5 milligrams per day would lower the risk of
alzheimers? There is no evidence one way or the other. Does that mean you
SHOULD exposure yourself to foods cooked or stored in aluminum? There's a
gene pool argument to be made that if you have this information, & still
want to cook in aluminum, then you really should do so -- for the sake of
the gene pool. And there's an aesthetic principle at work, too, as many
people really do need those aluminum pots & pans to match their rusty ol'
trailer houses.

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
See the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com/

"paghat" wrote in message
news
In article , "Don K"
wrote:

I, too, like to make my own decisions.
The post I was initially responding to, said, "anyone with aluminum
kitchen pots & utensils should toss them immediately".
Since there is no reputable scientific organization that has come to
the same conclusion, it qualifies as a crackpot advice.

Depends on if you think some of the leading scientific institutions are
reputable. If you DO bother to base your decision on having actually
checked the scientific data, you will find many who doubt cans & pots can
be a source of the aluminum deposits in alzheimer brain tissue, but do
think it could be aluminates from medications, deodorants, antacids, etc;
others think it could be neither; still others think the door is wide open
for it to be either or both. Several studies do show categorically that
the aluminum enters the bloodstream then the brain tissue through diet,
with no source entirely ruled out. Now you may think it crackpot, but in
this case, I've read the studies or their abstracts, & wasn't relieved of
my sense that it's on the REASONABLE side of safety to avoid aluminum. So
I wouldn't cook in aluminum (not that I ever did), I won't drink from
aluminum cans, I won't use a an antacid with aluminates. Is it paranoid?
Not according to Dr. Barry Thomas whose Australian study showed
CONCLUSIVELY that aluminum ingested by rats accumulates in their brains.

Dr. Barry Thomas is a consultant for Health Canada.

Here is the position of Health Canada regarding aluminum cookwa
"Aluminum can also leach into food from cookware,
utensils and wrappings, but studies to date have shown that the
amount of aluminum leached from these sources is generally negligible."

I wonder if they ran that one by Dr. Barry.

http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/hecs-sesc/wat...man_health.htm

Don

In article , "Don K"
wrote:

"paghat" wrote in message
news
In article , "Don K"
wrote:

I, too, like to make my own decisions.
The post I was initially responding to, said, "anyone with aluminum
kitchen pots & utensils should toss them immediately".
Since there is no reputable scientific organization that has come to
the same conclusion, it qualifies as a crackpot advice.

Depends on if you think some of the leading scientific institutions are
reputable. If you DO bother to base your decision on having actually
checked the scientific data, you will find many who doubt cans & pots can
be a source of the aluminum deposits in alzheimer brain tissue, but do
think it could be aluminates from medications, deodorants, antacids, etc;
others think it could be neither; still others think the door is wide open
for it to be either or both. Several studies do show categorically that
the aluminum enters the bloodstream then the brain tissue through diet,
with no source entirely ruled out. Now you may think it crackpot, but in
this case, I've read the studies or their abstracts, & wasn't relieved of
my sense that it's on the REASONABLE side of safety to avoid aluminum. So
I wouldn't cook in aluminum (not that I ever did), I won't drink from
aluminum cans, I won't use a an antacid with aluminates. Is it paranoid?
Not according to Dr. Barry Thomas whose Australian study showed
CONCLUSIVELY that aluminum ingested by rats accumulates in their brains.

Dr. Barry Thomas is a consultant for Health Canada.

Actually Dr. Thomas is retired, though still cited as senior researcher on
sundry research projects involving toxicity of drinking water, & cited on
the specific rat-modeled Australian Institute for Biomedical Research
study as that research's "Chief Directorate." If you need an explanation
for how you could be the head of a study not personally conducted, then
it's not surprising you also don't understand the outcomes if you don't
understand the process. The hands-on work was overseen by Dr. Judie
Walton. There were a slew of other authors in the symposium papers
eventually published with Dr. Thomas as first author (because he oversaw
the editing & choices for the book & wrote the introduction) -- everyone
pretty much agreed (as Dr Barry agrees) that aluminum dissolved in water
ends up deposited in brain tissue. None address the specific issue of pots
& pans, but they have definitely put to rest the delusion that aluminum
appears spontaneously in the brain -- it enters the bloodstream from the
intestins as a dietary contaminant.

Aluminum sulfate is ADDED to some metropolitan water systems in the
treatment process & that has had Dr. Thomas's priority to stop, even
though he also has said there is not yet any "proof" that the alumnum is
the cause of senile dementia. When a scientist speaks of "unproven" he's
not general implying the opposite IS proven. And Dr Thomas's specific
statement regarding almuminum as the causal agent was "there is not
conclusive evidence. But we fear that it may." All that is definite is if
you eat or drink anything that has aluminum traces therein, it will find
its way to your brain. The rest may be assumption, but then, even gravity
is just a theory, but we seem to adhere to the earth fairly well without
proving it.

Here is the position of Health Canada regarding aluminum cookwa
"Aluminum can also leach into food from cookware,
utensils and wrappings, but studies to date have shown that the
amount of aluminum leached from these sources is generally negligible."

I gave the specifics. 3.5 milligrams per day JUST from the cookware IF you
don't cook anything acidic like tomato sauce or rubarb (then it'll be
more) or if the water you're boiling is flouridated (then the amount of
aluminum dissolved be still more). But under the best of conditions, a
"mere" 3.5 milligrams per day, day in & day out, just from the cheapy-ass
aluminum cookware you're so proud to own. Add another 10 milligrams (or
more) from a buffered asprin if you're one of those dopes who take a pill
a day, another 30 or 40 milligrams from an antacids, it's starting to look
like a healthy dose. If you REALLY want to cite some physicians who don't
think that's a problem you could do MUCH better than Dr Thomas, who has
never said it's not a problem, only that the greater problem is the amount
of aluminum in drinking water.

Though much is not "proven" in absolute scientific terms, the least likely
thing to EVER be proven is that ANY of the sources of aluminum
contaminants are perfectly healthy & play no role whatsoever & that 3.5
milligrams per day is of no earthly consequence. There for a while (up
into the middle 1980s) even the idea of bodily absorption of aluminum from
diet & water was "unmproven" & Science Diget in the late 70s ran a whole
series of articles among which only about one in ten thought it at all
likely. Now pretty much every scientists agrees it's true -- the arguments
are now over which sources play the largest role, or whether it causes
senility or is a natural byproduct of other causes of senility. The Lancet
report on aluminum contaminants in infant diets lowering their average
intelligence as they develop seems to ME damnably definitive that aluminum
is causal, but scientists are rightly chary of claiming to have discovered
absolutes.

-paghat the ratgirl

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
See the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com/

I've been a lurker, but I just can't resist my 2 cents - Aluminum is
the most common element found in the earth's crust. Just about any
water which is not otherwise purified (distilled or ion exchanged) is
going to contain Aluminum.
The increase in concentration through contact with cans and pots will
*insignificant*.

Also note that Aluminum develops a patina of Aluminum Oxide (*) which
is highly insoluable.

* aka corundum - same stuff as rubies and sapphire

(Seamus Ma' Cleriec) wrote in
om:

I've been a lurker, but I just can't resist my 2 cents - Aluminum is
the most common element found in the earth's crust. Just about any

If you care to change 'element' to 'metal' or 'most' to 'third most',
I'll agree with you.

water which is not otherwise purified (distilled or ion exchanged) is
going to contain Aluminum.

How much and in what chemical form?

The increase in concentration through contact with cans and pots will
*insignificant*.

How did you come to this conclusion? Are you also saying naturally
occuring aluminum compounds and artifically leached aluminum have the
same biological reactivity?

Also note that Aluminum develops a patina of Aluminum Oxide (*) which
is highly insoluable.

What happens when you apply acid or a catalytic agent that dissolves the
patina?

* aka corundum - same stuff as rubies and sapphire

I'll agree that the Al-O bonds in Al2O3 are quite strong even when
developed as a patina, but considering it inexpertly, that seems
analogous to saying graphite and diamonds have the same hardness.

Thanks for the 2 cents, but I think I'll need at least a dollar.

-- Salty

In article , Salty Thumb
wrote:

(Seamus Ma' Cleriec) wrote in
om:

I've been a lurker, but I just can't resist my 2 cents - Aluminum is
the most common element found in the earth's crust. Just about any

If you care to change 'element' to 'metal' or 'most' to 'third most',
I'll agree with you.

water which is not otherwise purified (distilled or ion exchanged) is
going to contain Aluminum.

How much and in what chemical form?

The increase in concentration through contact with cans and pots will
*insignificant*.

How did you come to this conclusion? Are you also saying naturally
occuring aluminum compounds and artifically leached aluminum have the
same biological reactivity?

People who simply don't like to believe humanity has toxified our own
environment to a level of criminal insanity never even know which
questions to ask, because if they asked the right questions they wouldn't
come up with such dumb answers. The first question here would be HOW MUCH
exposure to alluminum can be blamed on use of alluminum cookware. The
answer confessed to by the aluminum industry itself is: approximately 3.5
milligrams injested per day by anyone who cooks in aluminum. It's more if
they cook tomato sauce, other acidic stuff, acidic foods, or leave cooked
foods in the pots longer than it takes to cook them, or later eat
leftovers that had not been removed from said cookware. The follow-up
questions would include, would removing 3.5 milligrams per day provide any
protection whatsoever? How MANY sources would have to be cut out of one's
"diet" to get down to a possibly-safe daily exposure? These actually do
have pretty easy to understand answers.

The sensible answer would be: IF the ONLY source of aluminum you removed
from your diet was that 3.5 milligrams per day, you've done next to
nothing to protect yourself. But if you've filtered the water & avoided
aluminated medications, WHY ON EARTH would you not also do the very simple
added measure of lowering your daily dose another 3.5 milligrams by
getting rid of those ten-cent Thrift Store aluminum pots?

Very likely the ultimate correct question would be: What is the minimum
dietary exposure that is 100% guaranteed to be safe for everyone? The
answer to that one is THERE IS NO GUARANTEED SAFE MINIUM; no science as
yet concludes categorically that eating even 3.5 milligrams per day ON
PURPOSE is an intelligent option. However, more conservatively & without
absolutes, World Health Organization posits the POSSIBILITY that 50
milligrams daily MIGHT for MOST people be safe (there are conditions
including downs syndrome where no level of exposure is apt to be safe).

IF cookware were your ONLY exposure, then you'd be well under the
possibly/probably safe level of 50 milligrams; but with other exposures,
this just isn't so. Even two other exposures -- say, if you take on
average one antacid per day, & one buffered asprin per day -- that could
already bump up around 48 milligrams exposure, & adding just the aluminum
cookware pushes you over the top. ALL sources of aluminum in the diet over
which we are capable of exerting control should (and WILL) be removed from
the diet by anyone who has a lick of sense. Get rid of a milligram here, a
milligram there, at some point it does add up to a RELATIVE if never 100%
point of safety.

Now Health Canada takes a position that aluminum cookware exposure is only
2 milligrams per day (with many provisos: IF the pots are kept
scrupulously clean & dry between uses; IF the interior is not worn or
pockmocked; IF you don't stir to the bottom with a metal utensil; IF you
rarely to never cook acidic foods; IF you never cook leafy vegetables
(which absorb more aluminum so that less of the aluminum is poored off
after boiling something); IF you don't use all the boiledwater such as in
a soup; IF food is never stored in the aluminum or cooked for any great
length of time. All these provisos met, then H.C. estimates 2 milligrams
exposure, day in, day out, & much greater if, say, you make any kind of
soup & refrigerate it in the cook pot & reheat the leftovers. But going
with the the best-case scenario, then that one buffered asprin, one
antacid, plus cookware combined will weigh in minimally at 50 milligrams,
leaving you no safe wiggle room for further exposure in case you actually
need two buffered asprins or eat a carrot or some spinach that could well
contain a half-milligram of aluminum, or if you' change or clean the
filter often enough so the tapwater is killin' ya too.

If someone told you you could lick old black & white photographs & not get
enough cyanide to drop dead at once, would you go oh goody & start
licking? Apparently some people would -- when it comes to such an easy
choice as using better pots & pans to save one from that minumum 2 mg &
probably 3.5 mg exposure.

IF you do not use buffered asprin, IF you use a Tums antacid without
aluminates, IF you have an EPA approved filter for tapwater, THEN you have
lowered your daily exposure to aluminum to 10 milligrams per day
(according to Health Canada extimates). Get rid of the cheap-ass
white-trash toxic cookware, you're down to 8 milligrams OR LESS. That
leaves primarily the "natural" exposures from bauxite that's everywhere,
such as in fresh veggies, but finally at a level so far under the POSSIBLY
safe 50 milligram per day that it would finally be a reasonable assumption
that Nature just seriously is not the one killing us. Insisting it's
perfectly all right to KEEP some of our man-made exposures is the problem.
Perhaps the more senile the sufferer, the more certain he'll become it's
okay.

-paghat the ratgirl

PS: Milligram estimates taken chiefly from Health Canada's leaflet "Safe
Use of Cook Ware" February 2003. This is a highly conservative document --
like the FDA, H.C. is conservative enough that it only moves definitively,
as it finally did against mad cow disease, after a major economic
catastrophe forces them to. Hence the same cookware leaflet asserts that
it's perfectly safe to eat Teflon chips & scrapings because they are
chemically inert. obviously the leaflet was written by someone who knew
his metals but not much else, or he would've heard of polymer fume fever
in humans & PTFE toxicosis in birds both caused by Teflon, plus PFOA
destruction of liver & reproductive organs in animal-modeled tests,
indicating teflon may pose special risks to women of childbearing age.
Nowadays not even DuPont claims it isn't toxic, they just pretend the
levels of exposures are safe IF your teflon never becomes particularly hot
& IF you never clean or scrape the bottom with anything even slightly
abbrasive.

Also note that Aluminum develops a patina of Aluminum Oxide (*) which
is highly insoluable.

What happens when you apply acid or a catalytic agent that dissolves the
patina?

* aka corundum - same stuff as rubies and sapphire

I'll agree that the Al-O bonds in Al2O3 are quite strong even when
developed as a patina, but considering it inexpertly, that seems
analogous to saying graphite and diamonds have the same hardness.

Thanks for the 2 cents, but I think I'll need at least a dollar.

-- Salty

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
See the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com/

"paghat" wrote in message
news
[snip]

The
answer confessed to by the aluminum industry itself is: approximately 3.5
milligrams injested per day by anyone who cooks in aluminum.

Reference please.

[snip]

Franz Heymann

"paghat" wrote in message
news
[snip]

I won't drink from
aluminum cans, I won't use a an antacid with aluminates. Is it paranoid?

Undoubtedly it is paranoid. But take courage, you might feel a great deal
relieved if you were to study the contents of the url
www.alzheimers.org.uk in detail. In brief, the line there is that there is
NO known causal link between Aluminium and Alzheimers, and that it is
looking ever more likely that Aluminium is of minor or no importance in the
development of dementia.

[snip]

Franz Heymann

"Franz Heymann" wrote in
:


"paghat" wrote in message
news
[snip]

I won't drink from
aluminum cans, I won't use a an antacid with aluminates. Is it
paranoid?

Undoubtedly it is paranoid. But take courage, you might feel a great
deal relieved if you were to study the contents of the url
www.alzheimers.org.uk in detail. In brief, the line there is that
there is NO known causal link between Aluminium and Alzheimers, and
that it is looking ever more likely that Aluminium is of minor or no
importance in the development of dementia.

[snip]

Franz Heymann



From:
http://www.alzheimers.org.uk/Facts_a...s/info_alumini
um.htm

There is circumstantial evidence linking this metal with Alzheimer's
disease but no causal relationship has yet been proved. As evidence for
other causes continues to grow, a possible link with aluminium seems
increasingly unlikely.

later ...

Researchers believe that, in the majority of those affected, Alzheimer's
disease results from a combination of different risk factors rather than a
single cause.

So they've said Alzheimer's results from a combination of risk factors
after offering proof by probability that aluminum is not one of the causes.

Still later:
The overwhelming medical and scientific opinion is that the findings
outlined above do not convincingly demonstrate a causal relationship
between aluminium and Alzheimer's disease, and that no useful medical or
public health recommendations can be made, at least at present.

"no useful medical or public health recommendations can be made" - not for
and not against

It has proved extremely difficult to devise studies which could resolve
this problem one way or another.

Woe to you if you've been chowing on aluminum and carry the hypothetical
Aluminum-nut-job gene. The rest of you move along, nothing to see here.

- Salty Nut Job

P.S. cute elephants in the gift shop