Lar wrote:

In article , grdngal48
@comcast.net says...
Non-Hodgkins lymphoma has been
linked (tentatively) only to organphosphates, of which substances
glyphosate/RoundUp is not a member.


Glyphosate is considered an organophosphate..that is
where they make the stretch.

I guess I should have made myself a bit clearer :-)) While it may well be
a derivative of phosphoric acid and therefore technically considered an
organophosphate, it does not display any anticholinesterase activity
which removes it from discussions regarding the potential neurotoxic
effects of true organophosphates like malathion and chlorpyrifos. Even
the EPA and EXTOXNET do not list it within the chemical class of
organophosphates.The OP's statement was a little like saying that since
bicycle riding without a helmet can lead to brain injuries, ANY bicycle
riding without a helmet WILL lead to brain injuries - it simply isn't
that direct a corollary.

pam - gardengal

Yea Doc, it's all a big conspiracy. That's why you pay most of your income
for food, have a life expectancy of 40 years, and are required to bear at
least 8 children to insure survival. To suggest that the dedicated civil
servants who staff our regulatory agencies are somehow pawns in some huge
conspiracy to make money for Monsanto is a terrible insult to many thousands
of very dedicated scientists and civil servants who have the public good in
mind. What we have here in the anti-everything group is a know-nothing lynch
mob, driven by hysteria and psychosis. Like a lynch mob, there are
demagogues who lead, and angry psychotics, incapable of comprehending the
evil they do, who follow and do most of the damage. There is little interest
in science and little concern for the truth about anything. Just because you
do not get your way in a dispute does not mean there is a conspiracy, it
only means your science is not convincing.

Thank goodness we have learned that the public must be protected, and that
we have erected large organizations like FDA and EPA to assist in regulating
and evaluating all the new chemicals and drugs. Lets increase the funding
etc if you feel that it isn't done adequately. And let us respect what we
have done as a civil society. We have come a long way from the days when
every feedlot was built near a stream to carry away the manure, when every
city sewer emptied into a river, and when you took your life in your hands
when you opened a bottle of Dr Feelgoods Magic Potion. You people are the
functional equivalent of an irresponsible, drunken mob on a lynching
expedition.

wrote in message
...
and you really, really trust the EPA to be totally independent and looking
out for
the consumers ala Ralph Nader (not that I have any use for him after the
last
election). Listen, nearly every single politician is in the pocket of
corporations,
and they appoint the people who staff the gov'mnt agencies. The FDA is
blatantly in
the corporations camp, just look at how they handled rBGH. Ingrid

"Frank Logullo" wrote:
Sounds like this guy is a wacko eco nut or was riffed by Monsanto. I'm
not
a fan of big government but this stuff had to be cleared under FIFRA by
the
EPA.
Frank




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

Amen!
"Bill Oliver" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Stephen Sassman wrote:
I should not, and I did not. Perhaps you are confusing my post with
something that
someone else has posted. My point was that just because this chemical
does not
cause this specific kind of cancer does not mean that it doesn't cause
other
cancers or have some detrimental affect on the endocrine system.


Or not. You can speculate that it causes you to grow bunny ears
and squeal like a pig if you want. Just note that it is pure
speculation and that you are making it all up. There is no
scientific evidence that Roundup is dangerous to humans
when used as directed. There has been an entire thread
devoted to this.

If you have a scientific article that claims to show that
Roundup is dangerous to humans when used as directed, trot
it out. Otherwise, I'll believe your bunny ears when I
see them.

billo

Scientists rarely are the heads of agencies, political appointments rarely go to
scientists. Scientists are perhaps less likely to be dishonest, but are subject to
the same pressures as everyone else. In my lectures this week I am talking about
what happens when science "goes wrong". They are under the same political, social,
economic pressures as everyone else.
http://users.megapathdsl.net/~solo/a...d_science.html
perhaps no incident points this out better than the search for the cause of AIDS. I
show my students the movie "... and the band played on" but there are two books, one
is the same title as the movie and the other is "Science fictions". Robert Gallo not
only contributed nothing to the search for the cause of AIDS, but he may have well
set research back by at least a year ... leading to the death of thousands of people.

Case in point: the French came up with a blood test 99.9% accurate in detecting
those with the virus. Gallo came up with a blood test that was something like 90.9%
accurate in detecting those with the virus, letting 10% of blood from infected people
continue to contaminate the blood supply.
1. The French had the European patent and then applied for a US patent on their
blood test 1 YEAR before Gallo, guess who got the patent? Gallo. The patent office
is a government agency... above politics?
2. The blood centers and everyone else in the US were BARRED from using the French
test.. never mind all the false negatives, AND, all the false positives too. So our
blood supply continued to be contaminated with HIV. Who barred the use of the better
French test? The gov'ment. Who has continually maintained the myth that Gallo
discovered the virus that causes HIV, who continues to let Gallo off the hook, covers
up for him.... many scientists in the US. Whether they WANT to do that, they do it
to cover their own asses out of political, social and economic concerns.
Just so my perspective is understood. I am a viral immunologist and was studying
persistent viruses at the time the first reports of an unusual disease in gay men
came out so I followed every detail. I have been on a board overseeing clinical
trials of experimental drugs for treating HIV/AIDS for 8 years. I am a scientist.
Ingrid

"Frank Logullo" wrote:
I'm not familiar with rBGH but it has been my experience that unlike
politicians government scientists are honest people.
I would add Nader to the politicians list
Frank




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

Who do you think would be funding the research to find out IF roundup is dangerous?
1. Monsanto? they do the minimal kind of testing for short term toxicity, but they
dont do the long term studies.
2. the government. nope, the gov does not do that kind of testing. they may (may)
collect stats on cancer clusters after the fact.
3. independent agencies. well now they are hired by corps to do testing, and their
income depends on who hires them... to many negatives and they lose their customers.


There is no middleman or "cut out" set up whereby the corporations come to a central
clearing house who look at what kind of testing is needed, matches them with the
independent labs that can do that kind of testing and randomly selects one to do it.
This would remove the direct economic pressure from the independent testing labs.

As was pointed out about DDT. It was not that scientists didnt want to test
properly... it was they didnt know AT THE TIME the right question to ask. Which
was: does DDT accumulate in fat? What are the consequences to migrating species
when DDT laced fats is rapidly metabolized? What are the long term consequences of
the accumulation of fat laced with DDT in the food chain?

Nobody thought to ask these questions. Scientists have learned lessons from this,
the question is do they get to apply what they learned to current pesticides or even
GMO and the answer is "no". It takes a lot of money to ask these kind of questions
and nobody wants to foot the bill. Ingrid

(Bill Oliver) wrote:
If you have a scientific article that claims to show that
Roundup is dangerous to humans when used as directed, trot
it out. Otherwise, I'll believe your bunny ears when I
see them.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

Northern Europeans do not pay most of their income for food and do not permit the
kind of contamination of their food that we do in the US. Until recently GMO were
banned, now they just MUST be labeled.
Life expectancy in Japan is significantly longer than ours and they do not permit
contamination of their food either.
I would think it is abundantly clear (pun intended) that for our own health and well
being food is already too cheap. The vast majority of americans dont NEED to be able
to afford more food. This generation of obese US citizens is going to have much
shorter life spans than slimmer citizens in other countries.
The major "technological advance" in keeping 3rd world children alive is a 3 cent
package of salts used in ERT or electrolyte replacement therapy.

All the dedicated civil servants in the world cant do squat if 1. there is no funding
to do it, and 2. their boss is a political appointee OR, been bought and paid for by
corporations. How the hell did we end up with an FDA regulation that specifically
says that milk produced from cows injected with rBGH milk CANNOT be labeled to
reflect its origin. The investigators and journalist have found a revolving door
between the FDA and various companies like Monsanto et al. So after their "stint" at
the FDA, the go to work for fabulous salaries at Monsanto.

LOL.. you obviously dont live in Milwaukee cause the last outbreak of crypto a few
years ago that made 500,000 Milwaukeans sick was the result of cattle crap runoff
into the RIVER that runs into Lake Michigan which was sucked back into the water
supply which wasnt treated properly to kill the parasite. And the continued problem
with untreated sewage continuing to be dumped into Lake Michigan where it floats
south and ends up on Chicago's beaches running the coliform count wayyyyy up.
Ingrid

"Darwin Vander Stelt" wrote:
Yea Doc, it's all a big conspiracy. That's why you pay most of your income
for food, have a life expectancy of 40 years, and are required to bear at
least 8 children to insure survival.
To suggest that the dedicated civil
servants who staff our regulatory agencies are somehow pawns in some huge
conspiracy to make money for Monsanto is a terrible insult to many thousands
of very dedicated scientists and civil servants who have the public good in
mind.

We have come a long way from the days when
every feedlot was built near a stream to carry away the manure, when every
city sewer emptied into a river,


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

wrote in
:

Nobody thought to ask these questions. Scientists have learned
lessons from this, the question is do they get to apply what they
learned to current pesticides or even GMO and the answer is "no". It
takes a lot of money to ask these kind of questions and nobody wants
to foot the bill. Ingrid

Excellent post(s), dr-solo. Very informative and good analysis.

Ursa..

--
==================================
Ursa (Major)/ \ *-*-* *
___________/====================================\_______*-*______

Yea, you are right, we have gone backwards, and are going backwards at a
steady pace. Life is getting shorter, and more brutal. Fire up that mob,
light those torches! Lets hang a corporation, or a president! Pass the
bottle to that fellow next to you, his enthusiasm is lacking! Hang Monsanto!
wrote in message
...
Northern Europeans do not pay most of their income for food and do not
permit the
kind of contamination of their food that we do in the US. Until recently
GMO were
banned, now they just MUST be labeled.
Life expectancy in Japan is significantly longer than ours and they do not
permit
contamination of their food either.
I would think it is abundantly clear (pun intended) that for our own
health and well
being food is already too cheap. The vast majority of americans dont NEED
to be able
to afford more food. This generation of obese US citizens is going to
have much
shorter life spans than slimmer citizens in other countries.
The major "technological advance" in keeping 3rd world children alive is a
3 cent
package of salts used in ERT or electrolyte replacement therapy.

All the dedicated civil servants in the world cant do squat if 1. there is
no funding
to do it, and 2. their boss is a political appointee OR, been bought and
paid for by
corporations. How the hell did we end up with an FDA regulation that
specifically
says that milk produced from cows injected with rBGH milk CANNOT be
labeled to
reflect its origin. The investigators and journalist have found a
revolving door
between the FDA and various companies like Monsanto et al. So after their
"stint" at
the FDA, the go to work for fabulous salaries at Monsanto.

LOL.. you obviously dont live in Milwaukee cause the last outbreak of
crypto a few
years ago that made 500,000 Milwaukeans sick was the result of cattle crap
runoff
into the RIVER that runs into Lake Michigan which was sucked back into the
water
supply which wasnt treated properly to kill the parasite. And the
continued problem
with untreated sewage continuing to be dumped into Lake Michigan where it
floats
south and ends up on Chicago's beaches running the coliform count wayyyyy
up.
Ingrid

"Darwin Vander Stelt" wrote:
Yea Doc, it's all a big conspiracy. That's why you pay most of your
income
for food, have a life expectancy of 40 years, and are required to bear at
least 8 children to insure survival.
To suggest that the dedicated civil
servants who staff our regulatory agencies are somehow pawns in some huge
conspiracy to make money for Monsanto is a terrible insult to many
thousands
of very dedicated scientists and civil servants who have the public good
in
mind.

We have come a long way from the days when
every feedlot was built near a stream to carry away the manure, when
every
city sewer emptied into a river,


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

The dairy industry would almost certainly favor labeling of rBGH if there
was a test to ascertain its presence in milk. Without a test there's no way
to stop the cheaters, and honest dairymen get penalized. As it is, it is not
illegal for a dairy company to label its product "no rBGH used" or with
similar language. (Ben and Jerry's does this) You may thus assume that
anything not so labeled may contain it. (and so there is no deception). I
say "may" because the stuff is a PIA for most people who have tried it, and
I suspect (though I don't know this for sure) that one reason Monsanto
doesn't reveal quantities sold is its a huge bust for them. As far as I
know, on the larger dairies in the west, use has declined dramatically.
wrote in message
...
Northern Europeans do not pay most of their income for food and do not
permit the
kind of contamination of their food that we do in the US. Until recently
GMO were
banned, now they just MUST be labeled.
Life expectancy in Japan is significantly longer than ours and they do not
permit
contamination of their food either.
I would think it is abundantly clear (pun intended) that for our own
health and well
being food is already too cheap. The vast majority of americans dont NEED
to be able
to afford more food. This generation of obese US citizens is going to
have much
shorter life spans than slimmer citizens in other countries.
The major "technological advance" in keeping 3rd world children alive is a
3 cent
package of salts used in ERT or electrolyte replacement therapy.

All the dedicated civil servants in the world cant do squat if 1. there is
no funding
to do it, and 2. their boss is a political appointee OR, been bought and
paid for by
corporations. How the hell did we end up with an FDA regulation that
specifically
says that milk produced from cows injected with rBGH milk CANNOT be
labeled to
reflect its origin. The investigators and journalist have found a
revolving door
between the FDA and various companies like Monsanto et al. So after their
"stint" at
the FDA, the go to work for fabulous salaries at Monsanto.

LOL.. you obviously dont live in Milwaukee cause the last outbreak of
crypto a few
years ago that made 500,000 Milwaukeans sick was the result of cattle crap
runoff
into the RIVER that runs into Lake Michigan which was sucked back into the
water
supply which wasnt treated properly to kill the parasite. And the
continued problem
with untreated sewage continuing to be dumped into Lake Michigan where it
floats
south and ends up on Chicago's beaches running the coliform count wayyyyy
up.
Ingrid

"Darwin Vander Stelt" wrote:
Yea Doc, it's all a big conspiracy. That's why you pay most of your
income
for food, have a life expectancy of 40 years, and are required to bear at
least 8 children to insure survival.
To suggest that the dedicated civil
servants who staff our regulatory agencies are somehow pawns in some huge
conspiracy to make money for Monsanto is a terrible insult to many
thousands
of very dedicated scientists and civil servants who have the public good
in
mind.

We have come a long way from the days when
every feedlot was built near a stream to carry away the manure, when
every
city sewer emptied into a river,


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

Title: The teratogenic potential of the herbicide glyphosate-Roundup(R) in
Wistar rats.

Author: Dallegrave, Eliane; Mantese, Fabiana DiGiorgio; Coelho, Ricardo
Soares; Pereira, Janaina Drawans; Dalsenter, Paulo Roberto; Langeloh,
Augusto


Author Address Department of Pharmacology, Instituto de Ciencias Basicas da
Saude, Universidade Federal do Rio Grande do Sul (UFRGS), Rua Sarmento Leite
500, Sala 202, 90046-900, Porto Alegre, RS, Brazil, BrazilDepartment of
Pharmacology, Instituto de Ciencias Basicas da Saude, Universidade Federal
do Rio Grande do Sul (UFRGS), Rua Sarmento Leite 500, Sala 202, 90046-900,
Porto Alegre, RS, Brazil.

Published in: Toxicology Letters (Shannon), volumn 142, pages 45-52, (2003).


Abstract: "The aim of this study was to assess the teratogenicity of the
herbicide glyphosate-Roundup(R) (as commercialized in Brazil) to Wistar
rats. Dams were treated orally with water or 500, 750 or 1000 mg/kg
glyphosate from day 6 to 15 of pregnancy. Cesarean sections were performed
on day 21 of pregnancy, and number of corpora lutea, implantation sites,
living and dead fetuses, and resorptions were recorded. Weight and gender of
the fetuses were determined, and fetuses were examined for external
malformations and skeletal alterations. The organs of the dams were removed
and weighed. Results showed a 50% mortality rate for dams treated with 1000
mg/kg glyphosate. Skeletal alterations were observed in 15.4, 33.1, 42.0 and
57.3% of fetuses from the control, 500, 750 and 1000 mg/kg glyphosate
groups, respectively. We may conclude that glyphosate-Roundup(R) is toxic to
the dams and induces developmental retardation of the fetal skeleton."


Henry Kuska, retired

http://home.neo.rr.com/kuska/

Under further investigation, Roundup APPEARS to be fairly safe. But then
as I mentioned, so did DDT. I don't know about "when used as directed",
but Roundup does have negative effects on the reproductive system at
some level...


Roundup Inhibits Steroidogenesis by Disrupting Steroidogenic Acute
Regulatory (StAR) Protein Expression

ENVIRONMENTAL HEALTH PERSPECTIVES, (2000 Aug) 108 (8) 769-76

Recent reports demonstrate that many currently used pesticides have the
capacity to disrupt reproductive function in animals. Although this
reproductive dysfunction is typically characterized by alterations in
serum steroid hormone levels, disruptions in spermatogenesis, and loss
of fertility, the mechanisms involved in pesticide-induced infertility
remain undear. Because testicular Leydig cells play a crucial role in
male reproductive function by producing testosterone, we used the mouse
MA-10 Leydig tumor cell line to study the molecular events involved in
pesticide-induced alterations in steroid hormone biosynthesis. We
previously showed that the organochlorine insecticide lindane and the
organophosphate insecticide Dimethoate directly inhibit steroidogenesis
in Leydig cells by disrupting expression of the steroidogenic acute
regulatory (StAR) protein. StAR protein mediates the rate-limiting and
acutely regulated step in steroidogenesis, the transfer of cholesterol
from the outer to the inner mitochondrial membrane where the cytochrome
P450 side chain cleavage (P450scc) enzyme initiates the synthesis of all
steroid hormones. In the present study, we screened eight currently used
pesticide formulations for their ability to inhibit steroidogenesis,
concentrating on their effects on StAR expression in MA-10 cells. In
addition, we determined the effects of these compounds on the levels and
activities of the P450scc enzyme (which converts cholesterol to
pregnenolone) and the 3beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase (3beta-HSD)
enzyme (which converts pregnenolone to progesterone). Of the pesticides
screened, only the pesticide Roundup inhibited dibutyryl
[(Bu)2]cAMP-stimulated progesterone production in MA-10 cells without
causing cellular toxicity. Roundup inhibited steroidogenesis by
disrupting StAR protein expression, further demonstrating the
susceptibility of StAR to environmental pollutants. Key words. chemical
mixtures, cytochrome P450 side chain cleavage, environmental endocrine
disruptor, 3beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase, Leydig cells, Roundup,
steroid hormones, steroidogenesis, steroidogenic acute regulatory
protein. Environ Health Perspect 108:769-776 (2000).



Bill Oliver wrote:

In article ,
Tom Jaszewski newsgroup wrote:
You tell em billbo...Yeah! after all what could some analytical
chemist know about detrimental effects...end sarcasm


You're turning into quite the little ankle-biter, aren't
you, Tom. First you cyberstalk, then you try to use
sock puppets and anonymity, and now you follow me around
from thread to thread.

OK, Tom, my challenge stands.

One single scientific article in a peer-reviewed scientific
journal that claims to show that Roundup is dangerous to
humans when used as directed.

One. Just one.

billo

--
Stephen Sassman

very simple way to determine who is using rBGH and who isnt. Very early on in this
debate the recommendation was for Monsanto to make public who it is selling rBGH to,
and the dealers make public which farmers are buying it. But no way was Monsanto
going to cooperate, that is not what they had in mind.

Oh yes, it is illegal. Read the FDA on this point. They must include a disclaimer
that basically says "rBGH hasnt been found to be a problem". But the real point is
Monsanto will sue the shit out of any dairy that puts the "rBGH free" label on their
product even with the disclaimer in place. Only two states (I think) passed laws
making it legal for farmers to so label their products (with the disclaimer) which
PROTECTED THEM FROM BEING SUED by Monsanto... those two are Vermont (Ben and Jerry's
home state) and Wisconsin (not that I can find rBGH free milk in any regular grocery
store). They did carry it for a while, then found consumers were not buying the
unlabeled milk, so they quit carrying rBGH free labeled milk. The law allows
labeling, doesnt REQUIRE it, so typical grocery stores arent going to carry labeled
foods of any kind.

Yes, rBGH injections are extremely hard on the cow. decreases their life span, 50%
become lame, increased mastitis, increased antibiotic treatments, decreased
conception and carrying fetus to term. rBGH is the only product this harmful to ever
be licensed for use by the "animal FDA", the oversight committee that determines if
vet products are safe and healthy for animals... even treatments for diseases. How
did such a damaging chemical ever get licensed for use?

"Milk is a hormonal delivery system. Mechanisms in milk insure that lactoferrins,
immunoglobulins, and protein hormones do indeed survive digestive processes, and
exert biological effects. " Whether or not rBGH is in the milk isnt the point. rBGH
is a powerful hormone that stimulates the immune system of cows and they crank out
all kinds of powerful hormones that end up in the milk... and are then drunk by kids.
Every child in this country drinking cows milk has been enrolled in a vast experiment
on the effects of powerful immunologically active substances. Because the closest
Monsanto every got to determining IF there were ANY effects in children was a short
term study they did on dwarfs.

Monsanto's stated reasons for pushing rBGH was 1. it was the first recombinant
product they could get out the door and 2. if Americans let Monsanto do this to
their milk, to their children, Americans would swallow ANY amount of screwing around
with their food. I cannot even think of the word that describes their utter and
complete disregard of the health and welfare of children in this country. And
precisely BECAUSE the milk is not labeled, any negative consequences, any diseases
that start showing up in children now or later as they age can never, ever legally be
attributed to rBGH produced milk cause nobody knows whether the children drank this
hormonally cranked up milk or not. This is true of all GMO foods, which is why
labeling is being fought tooth and nail.

There are lots and lots of good companies. Some have chosen safety over the bottom
line, many have never had to chose between safety and the bottom line. But there are
those companies like Monsanto that put into play a long term strategy of working with
other "like minded" companies to buy up, buy out and corrupt the government at every
level, politicians, the FDA, every regulatory agency out there. To go after anybody
that stands in their way. That is why America, land of the free, land of informed
consent are not allowed to know which foods are GMO while the rest of the world DOES
get to chose whether they want to eat GMO foods.

Is recombinant DNA useful? YOU BET. If we had recombinant clotting factors 20 years
ago we wouldnt have lost hemophiliacs to AIDS. There are all kinds of diseases and
problems that need researchers and companies to develop cures using the techniques.
IT could be used to create insulin producing cells matched to a diabetics cell type
to cure their diabetes. I would even think developing crops that fix nitrogen like
legumes would be a great advance. Ingrid

"Darwin Vander Stelt" wrote:
The dairy industry would almost certainly favor labeling of rBGH if there
was a test to ascertain its presence in milk. Without a test there's no way
to stop the cheaters, and honest dairymen get penalized.
As it is, it is not
illegal for a dairy company to label its product "no rBGH used" or with
similar language. (Ben and Jerry's does this) You may thus assume that
anything not so labeled may contain it. (and so there is no deception). I
say "may" because the stuff is a PIA for most people who have tried it, and
I suspect (though I don't know this for sure) that one reason Monsanto
doesn't reveal quantities sold is its a huge bust for them. As far as I
know, on the larger dairies in the west, use has declined dramatically.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

In article , Major Ursa
wrote:

wrote in
:

Nobody thought to ask these questions. Scientists have learned
lessons from this, the question is do they get to apply what they
learned to current pesticides or even GMO and the answer is "no". It
takes a lot of money to ask these kind of questions and nobody wants
to foot the bill. Ingrid

Excellent post(s), dr-solo. Very informative and good analysis.

Ursa..

Agreed.
-paghat the ratgirl

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
See the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com/

On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 15:31:14 GMT, wrote:

I would even think developing crops that fix nitrogen like
legumes would be a great advance. Ingrid


Using compost tea can introduce the biology to put nitrogen fixing
bacteria fungi and protazoa in the soil!

On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 15:31:14 GMT, wrote:

e. But there are
those companies like Monsanto that put into play a long term strategy of working with
other "like minded" companies to buy up, buy out and corrupt the government at every
level, politicians, the FDA, every regulatory agency out there. To go after anybody
that stands in their way.


Great post Dr.!!!