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Old 01-09-2003, 03:22 PM
David J Bockman
 
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Default The most toxic town in America (Monsanto)

Appropos considering our recent discussions:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/...in528581.shtml

"Imagine a place so saturated with toxic, cancer-causing chemicals that it's
in the dirt people walk on, the air they breathe - even the blood that pumps
through their veins.

The 24,000 people living in Anniston, Ala., don't have to imagine this. Many
of them are living it. In fact, they have been living it for decades - they
just didn't know it. The company responsible didn't tell them, and neither
did the Environmental Protection Agency."


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Old 01-09-2003, 05:02 PM
Dave Gower
 
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Default The most toxic town in America (Monsanto)


"David J Bockman" wrote in message
...
Appropos considering our recent discussions:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/...in528581.shtml

"Imagine a place so saturated with toxic, cancer-causing chemicals that

it's
in the dirt people walk on, the air they breathe - even the blood that

pumps
through their veins.


I presume you mean our recent discussions about Roundup. If so, then this
article is NOT "Appropos" (sic). I quote the key paragraph from this story:

"The problem is polychlorinated byphenyls - PCBs - one of the most pervasive
and profitable industrial chemicals of 20th Century America."

I have never heard of any PCB's in Roundup. Have you? If not, I expect an
apology to the newsgroup for a deliberate attempt to mislead.

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Old 01-09-2003, 05:12 PM
Salty Thumb
 
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Default The most toxic town in America (Monsanto)

"Dave Gower" wrote in
:


"David J Bockman" wrote in message
...
Appropos considering our recent discussions:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/...in528581.shtml

"Imagine a place so saturated with toxic, cancer-causing chemicals
that it's in the dirt people walk on, the air they breathe - even the
blood that pumps through their veins.


I presume you mean our recent discussions about Roundup. If so, then
this article is NOT "Appropos" (sic). I quote the key paragraph from
this story:

"The problem is polychlorinated byphenyls - PCBs - one of the most
pervasive and profitable industrial chemicals of 20th Century
America."

I have never heard of any PCB's in Roundup. Have you? If not, I expect
an apology to the newsgroup for a deliberate attempt to mislead.


Why? Who's misleading whom? They said it was safe back then, and they
are saying it's safe now. Why should we believe them (Monsanto)? Change
the formula a bit, make some more money, 70 years later, say "oops sorry,
we didn't know about that, here's some chump change".

What's funny is that all these health agencies still can't say if PCB's
actually (not *probably*) cause cancer or not, despite there not being
any "debate" in the blah blah scientific community and useless government
bodies:

Carpenter is also an expert on PCBs and says every national and
international health agency in the world lists PCBs as a probable human
carcinogen.

"There is evidence in humans consistent with the conclusion that they
cause cancer," says Carpenter, who adds that PCB exposure increases the
risk of almost all major diseases, including heart disease and diabetes.
"Within the objective scientific community and within the government
bodies, there is no debate at all."
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Old 01-09-2003, 05:42 PM
David J Bockman
 
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Default The most toxic town in America (Monsanto)

Not only will an apology not be forthcoming, you can take your bossy
attitude and your attempts to dictate my online behavior and shove them.

I wrote 'appropos' in light of the recent tangential demagoguery over
Monsanto, not the Roundup Wars.

Dave

"Dave Gower" wrote in message
...

"David J Bockman" wrote in message
...
Appropos considering our recent discussions:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/...in528581.shtml

"Imagine a place so saturated with toxic, cancer-causing chemicals that

it's
in the dirt people walk on, the air they breathe - even the blood that

pumps
through their veins.


I presume you mean our recent discussions about Roundup. If so, then this
article is NOT "Appropos" (sic). I quote the key paragraph from this

story:

"The problem is polychlorinated byphenyls - PCBs - one of the most

pervasive
and profitable industrial chemicals of 20th Century America."

I have never heard of any PCB's in Roundup. Have you? If not, I expect an
apology to the newsgroup for a deliberate attempt to mislead.



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Old 01-09-2003, 06:02 PM
Major Ursa
 
Posts: n/a
Default The most toxic town in America (Monsanto)

"David J Bockman" wrote in news:0MJ4b.4072$NF5.2996
@nwrddc01.gnilink.net:

I wrote 'appropos' in light of the recent tangential demagoguery over
Monsanto, not the Roundup Wars.


And considering the historic trackrecord of the evidence presented by MS
in this case and in the case of RU it is very much relevant. See also post
by Salty Thumb.

I think we should let our governements revoke all approvings to Monsanto.
In fact, I think the company should be closed down, the CEO's jailed and
then lets take our time and find out if they did anything right.

Ursa..

--
==================================
Ursa (Major)/ \ *-*-* *
___________/====================================\_______*-*______


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Old 01-09-2003, 06:12 PM
paghat
 
Posts: n/a
Default The most toxic town in America (Monsanto)

In article , "Dave Gower"
wrote:

"David J Bockman" wrote in message
...
Appropos considering our recent discussions:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/...in528581.shtml

"Imagine a place so saturated with toxic, cancer-causing chemicals that

it's
in the dirt people walk on, the air they breathe - even the blood that

pumps
through their veins.


I presume you mean our recent discussions about Roundup. If so, then this
article is NOT "Appropos" (sic). I quote the key paragraph from this story:

"The problem is polychlorinated byphenyls - PCBs - one of the most pervasive
and profitable industrial chemicals of 20th Century America."

I have never heard of any PCB's in Roundup. Have you? If not, I expect an
apology to the newsgroup for a deliberate attempt to mislead.


Monsanto (& Monsanto alone, in case anyone thinks one poor company is
being picked on to the exclusion of many equally evil companies) has
greatly polluted the world with its PCBs. They're in the environment,
everywhere, thanks to Monsanto exclusively. Monsanto is presently
polluting the world with an admixture of glyphosate & surficant plus many
other chemicals in the formulation, some of them unrevealed. But the
surficant is responsible for picking up PCBs in watersheds & facilitating
their further entry into the food chain. So a direct link between RoundUp
usage & increased risk of PCBs is a given. In places like Monsanto's "most
contaminated" of all towns, the PCB levels in workers & citizens is thirty
to seventy times higher than the national average. The toxified residents
are not getting less contaminated year by year, but more contaminated.
RoundUp's surficant just keeps those poisons circulating.

So yes, the same company that formerly "proved" PCBs, Agent Orange, and
rBGH were perfectly safe, now not only claims their newest pollutant,
glyphosate, is safe even when eaten, but they are still to this day pump
out articles, "studies," & PR pieces claiming that continuous low level
exposure to PCBs is also perfectly safe, the reason being that their
glyphosate products by means of the polluting surficant are helping
keeping PCBs in the foodchain, & they want the government to stay off
their backs about this issue.

Nearly all the discussion on RoundUp has failed to note that the actual
ingredients are not known to the public, Monsanto claiming this to be
proprietary information exempting them from honest labelling.

This is what Monsanto admits is in the product:
1.Isopropylamine salt of glyphosate (active ingredient)
2.Water
3.ethoxylated tallowamine surfactant
4.Multiple organic acids of glyphosate
5.Excess isopropylamine

This is what EPA notes is also in it:
6. Polyoxyethylene alkylamine
7. FD&C Blue No. 1

This is what else Toxicologist David H. Monroe found in Roundup:
8. polyoxyethylene alkylamine
9. 1,4-dioxane (350 ppm)

And that's NOT everything, as Monsanto fully admits to further
"PROPRIETARY INGREDIENTS" which gets them around the law that would
otherwise require they stipulate all ingredients. In 1996 Judge Robertson
by court order forced Monsanto to reveal other ingredients but the list
was sealed by court order, but it was during this process that Monsanto
began admitting to "multiple organic acids" not to be further specified.
They have NEVER given a percentage of ingredients that adds up to 100%, so
no one knows what percentage the proprietary & unrevealed ingredents may
add up to. In their ad-scams to farmers they call these unrevealed
ingredients "new and unique to Monsanto."

Additionally, glyphosate easily "nitrosates" & so when it interacts with
dog, cat, or human poo, it combines to form this ingredient:

10. N-nitrosoglyphosate

which is not a safe chemical by anyone's measure. Additiononal chemicals
appear during as Roundup begins far too slowly to decay. Tests NOT
financed by Monsanto done at the University of Minnesota found that
glyphosate degrades into:

11. Formeldehyde
12. Sarcosine
13. Methylamine
14. aminomethylphosphonic acid

All 14 of these chemicals would have to be studied & found to be safe,
then tested in all combinations, before Roundup could rationally be
considered safe. Several are already established to be unsafe, so even
though the worst is not studied or known of all these chemicals, enough is
already known to say categorically that any claim of Roundup as anything
less than extremely toxic & carcinogenic (at the very least from the decay
byproduct of formaldehyde & N-nitroglyphosate) would be predicated on
falsehoods, because it IS extremely toxic & carcinogenic.

All tests on which Monsanto bases their safety lies are NOT tests of
formulated Roundup, but only of glyphosate alone -- & even those studies
are falsified, rigged, or given highly specific focuses that preclude the
actual danger factors. Independent studies do not give even pure
glyphosate the clean bill of health Monsanto pretends, but of equally
grave interest is the fact that ACTUAL Roundup has NOT been tested for
safety by Monsanto or by Monsanto-funded labs. The few independent studies
that looked at the surficant in combination with glyphosate found that the
combination increases the toxicity of glyphosate, & facilitates glyphosate
in penetrating cell walls in humans & animals (something Monsanto pretends
does not much occur, but when the surficant is added, it occurs reliably).
Most of the other "combination" effects of the 14 known, let alone the
proprietary hence unrevealed ingredients, have never been tested at all,
not by anyone, & the full risks never assessed. It's already established
that tallowamine alone triples the toxicity of glyphosate, meaning a great
deal of additional toxicity is being generated by the surfactants if by no
other ingredient, but fact remains, the full formulation of Roundup (and
similar glyphosate-based products) have simply never been tested, the
efffects of each of these chemicals in combination & in their additional
break-down pollutants are intentionally overlooked.

UK Forestry Commission stated that glyphosate products were causing the
death of old hedgerows through drift. Use of glyphosate in the vicinity of
trees is implicated in loss of winter hardiness & reduced resistance to
fungal diseases. Maple trees in particular have increased susceptibility
to death in the second year after glyphosate use in the vicinitiy of
maples [Source: England's ENDS Report, February 1991]. Another study
showed that clover planted FOUR MONTHS after glyphosate use had reduced
nitrogen fixation & growth, the implication being that the percentage of
glyphosate known to bond with the soil remains active for MONTHS after
use. In usda Zones 3 through 5, due to coldness, as well as in more or
less sterile soils in desert environments, glyphosate will still be
stunting or killing plantlife a year after use. The EPA has stated that
many endangered native plant species are endangered by the widespread use
of glyphosate products.

Glyphosate should be spelled D.O.O.M.

-paghat the ratgirl

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
See the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com/
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Old 01-09-2003, 06:12 PM
 
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Default The most toxic town in America (Monsanto)

It is entirely apropos of the fact that this is a company like Monsanto. Which now
has a record of poisoning the environment, of covering up what they know about the
toxicity, using the courts to slow remediation and apparently even having control
over the EPA. Take a look at their political contributions list. That is what 60
minutes was talking about. Do you seriously think you know everything about Roundup?
Do you seriously think this company has seen the error of its ways? Ingrid

"Dave Gower" wrote:
I have never heard of any PCB's in Roundup. Have you? If not, I expect an
apology to the newsgroup for a deliberate attempt to mislead.




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
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endorsements or recommendations I make.
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Old 01-09-2003, 06:12 PM
zxcvbob
 
Posts: n/a
Default The most toxic town in America (Monsanto)

David J Bockman wrote:

Appropos considering our recent discussions:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/...in528581.shtml

"Imagine a place so saturated with toxic, cancer-causing chemicals that it's
in the dirt people walk on, the air they breathe - even the blood that pumps
through their veins.

The 24,000 people living in Anniston, Ala., don't have to imagine this. Many
of them are living it. In fact, they have been living it for decades - they
just didn't know it. The company responsible didn't tell them, and neither
did the Environmental Protection Agency."


It's amazing how little information is in that article. It looks like a
piece written to garner support for the town's pending lawsuit, but afraid
to actually say anything outright lest they get sucked into the lawsuit.

Best regards,
Bob

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Old 01-09-2003, 09:42 PM
Dave Gower
 
Posts: n/a
Default The most toxic town in America (Monsanto)


"Salty Thumb" wrote

... They said it was safe back then, and they
are saying it's safe now. Why should we believe them (Monsanto)?


It's got nothing to do with "believing" Monsanto. The point here is that the
article quoted is irrelevant to "recent discussions" on this newsgroup.
Roundup has no PCBs. The article was about PCBs.

The original post was intended to deceive. Now who has the credability
problem?

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Old 01-09-2003, 09:42 PM
Dave Gower
 
Posts: n/a
Default The most toxic town in America (Monsanto)


"David J Bockman" wrote in message
...
Not only will an apology not be forthcoming, you can take your bossy
attitude and your attempts to dictate my online behavior and shove them.


I will continue to point out your ignorant, agenda-driven drivel as much as
I want.

"rec-gardens" is a newsgroup devoted to helping people with home gardening
issues, not debate industrial history or public policy. Those topics should
be taken to the appropriate newsgroups i.e. ones that start with "sci" or
"soc". They are off-topic here.



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Old 01-09-2003, 10:02 PM
Dave Gower
 
Posts: n/a
Default The most toxic town in America (Monsanto)


wrote in message
...

Do you seriously think you know everything about Roundup?


I know that when USED AS RECOMMENDED it works just fine in my yard.

Do you seriously think this company has seen the error of its ways?


That's the quasi-religious agenda again. Monsanto (and Dupont, Dow etc) are
satans.

As I said in another reply, such social agendas are off-topic for this
newsgroup. The safety of Round-up is a valid topic, but can only be answered
by reference to personal experience and bio-chemistry. Not being a
bio-chemist, I quote my personal experience. Bio-chemists say it is safe
WHEN USED AS RECOMMENDED.

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Old 01-09-2003, 10:12 PM
paghat
 
Posts: n/a
Default The most toxic town in America (Monsanto)

In article , "Dave Gower"
wrote:

"David J Bockman" wrote in message
...
Not only will an apology not be forthcoming, you can take your bossy
attitude and your attempts to dictate my online behavior and shove them.


I will continue to point out your ignorant, agenda-driven drivel as much as
I want.


Except, of course, when the agenda is driven by Monsanto; when decade by
decade their "previous" agenda of "facts" turned out to be all lies, & the
critics turned out to be all right, & you seriously believe a company that
did nothing but lie for fifty years is going to be telling the truth THIS
time even though their claims for glyphosate are word-for-word repeated
from past claims for Agent Orange & PCBs. And even though they've been
caught in outright lies & fabrications of "science," you still boldly sit
with your saw on a limb posting:

"My experience is that Monsanto is telling the truth." -Dave Gower

To which only "BWAAhahaha!" is a responsible reply.

Someone as agenda-driven as THAT griping about agendas, shit dude, the
only difference between these two agendas is Monsanto's is "mega-profit at
cost of human life!" while the greenies agenda is "a cleaner safer
planet."

-paghat the ratgirl

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
See the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com/
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Old 01-09-2003, 10:42 PM
David J Bockman
 
Posts: n/a
Default The most toxic town in America (Monsanto)

Dave,

If you had a clue as to what my 'agenda' is you'd feel pretty stupid right
about now. Check the threads of discussion, I came down on Bill Oliver's
side.

The fact that Roundup is safe if used as directed and the fact that Monsanto
appears to have destoyed the ecosystem of a small town are not mutually
exclusive.

Dave

"Dave Gower" wrote in message
...

"David J Bockman" wrote in message
...
Not only will an apology not be forthcoming, you can take your bossy
attitude and your attempts to dictate my online behavior and shove them.


I will continue to point out your ignorant, agenda-driven drivel as much

as
I want.

"rec-gardens" is a newsgroup devoted to helping people with home gardening
issues, not debate industrial history or public policy. Those topics

should
be taken to the appropriate newsgroups i.e. ones that start with "sci" or
"soc". They are off-topic here.



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Old 01-09-2003, 11:02 PM
Salty Thumb
 
Posts: n/a
Default The most toxic town in America (Monsanto)

"Dave Gower" wrote in
:

It's got nothing to do with "believing" Monsanto. The point here is
that the article quoted is irrelevant to "recent discussions" on this
newsgroup. Roundup has no PCBs. The article was about PCBs.

The original post was intended to deceive. Now who has the credability
problem?


Fine, you don't want to believe the article is relevant to "recent
discussions" - I'll make it relevant:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/...in528581.shtml
Today, parts of Anniston are so contaminated that residents have been
told not to grow vegetables in the soil, kick up dirt, eat food, chew
gum or smoke cigarettes while working in their yards.


Do not grow vegetables from soil imported from Anniston. Use discretion
when using soil or water from or near former PCB chemical factories. Be
aware of ecological indicators of high PCB whether they are thin bird
shell eggs or incontinent pets. Polychlorinated biphenyls are persistent
chemicals that do not readily degrade through natural processes but are
readily distributed by the same.

- Salty

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Old 01-09-2003, 11:02 PM
 
Posts: n/a
Default The most toxic town in America (Monsanto)

OK.. this is how the thread developed

1. is roundup safe?
2. probably not, it is made by Monsanto who does not put consumers first, monsanto,
you know, the people made PCBs since 1930 and still is fighting having to clean up
after themselves, the ones poisoned a whole town, hid what they knew, when they knew
it.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.
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