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Faye Tarzwell 01-09-2003 11:02 PM

Mutation in "Goldsturm" Black-Eyed Susans
 
I have a few patches of "Goldsturm" Black-Eyed Susan and they have bloomed
for 2 years now.
I planted them in the spring of 2002 from seed (McKenzie seeds).
This year I noticed that one patch had a slightly mutated version of the
"Goldsturm" Black-Eyed Susan. It was the same flower shape but the petals
were half yellow (edges) and half red.
Anybody heard of such mutation?

FayeC
zone 5a



paghat 02-09-2003 01:42 AM

Mutation in "Goldsturm" Black-Eyed Susans
 
In article , "Faye Tarzwell"
wrote:

I have a few patches of "Goldsturm" Black-Eyed Susan and they have bloomed
for 2 years now.
I planted them in the spring of 2002 from seed (McKenzie seeds).
This year I noticed that one patch had a slightly mutated version of the
"Goldsturm" Black-Eyed Susan. It was the same flower shape but the petals
were half yellow (edges) and half red.
Anybody heard of such mutation?

FayeC
zone 5a


Goldsturm seeds do not grow true. Most of us who have "Goldsturm" cannot
always be totally certain we have the real deal, unless knowing the
grower, & that they were started from stem cuttings (or from spring
division of one's own known "Goldsturm"). Seeds from Jelitto or Behnke &
elsewhere are "approximations" only. When the seed producers are
criticized for this, they shrug it off as their good & honest intennt to
produce seeds commercially that will result in plants "nearly uniform" or
"pretty close" to Goldsturm -- that's their goal, & that's why they call
them "Goldsturm." But the reality is you can never be certain what will
grow from these seeds (if gotten from actual "Goldsturm" stocks) & anyone
claiming stronger uniformity is probably selling the wild Sullivant's
Rudbeckia, a subspecies, falsely labeled "Goldsturm," as the wild
supbspecies seeds ARE apt to be uniform.

The unpredictability of what grows from these seeds MIGHT conceivably
result in something that's actually a sport worth saving & developing
(rather than just the usual reversion to the lankier wild subspecies), &
since the petals on yours are half red, that might indeed be the rare
"something" worth working with to preserve. But to me it sounds like
you're describing a completely different cultivar mixed into the packets
from carelessly sourced & intentionally mislabeled pseudo "Goldsturm"
seeds.

-paghat the ratgirl

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
See the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com/

Pelvis Popcan 02-09-2003 11:42 AM

Mutation in "Goldsturm" Black-Eyed Susans
 
If you planted them from seed, they are NOT pure Goldsturms. They are
strains. Goldsturms only propagate through cuttings. In order to get
viable seed, they have to be hybridized with other types of Rudbeckia.
The flowers you end up getting from these are Goldsturm hybrids. They
resemble Goldsturms, but they are not the "true" Goldsturm. The
flowers on these plants WILL show mixed blooms.

Examine the seed packets for these and they should say "strain" on
them someplace.



"Faye Tarzwell" wrote:

I have a few patches of "Goldsturm" Black-Eyed Susan and they have bloomed
for 2 years now.
I planted them in the spring of 2002 from seed (McKenzie seeds).
This year I noticed that one patch had a slightly mutated version of the
"Goldsturm" Black-Eyed Susan. It was the same flower shape but the petals
were half yellow (edges) and half red.
Anybody heard of such mutation?

FayeC
zone 5a



Pelvis Popcan 02-09-2003 12:02 PM

Mutation in "Goldsturm" Black-Eyed Susans
 
(paghat) wrote:

In article , "Faye Tarzwell"
wrote:

The unpredictability of what grows from these seeds MIGHT conceivably
result in something that's actually a sport worth saving & developing
(rather than just the usual reversion to the lankier wild subspecies), &
since the petals on yours are half red, that might indeed be the rare
"something" worth working with to preserve. But to me it sounds like
you're describing a completely different cultivar mixed into the packets
from carelessly sourced & intentionally mislabeled pseudo "Goldsturm"
seeds.

-paghat the ratgirl


This year I planted two Rudbeckia types from Park Seed: Rudbeckia
fulgida var sullivantii Goldsturm Strain, and Rudbeckia hirta Indian
Summer. The "Goldsturm Strain" plants grew very small with few
flowers, while the hirta Indian Summer grew very robustly and tall
with tons of big blooms.

I think it's best to grow the annual vanities of Rudbeckia (like
hirta) if you want to grow from seed.

It's my understanding that the "Gloriosa Daisy" Rudbeckias were first
bred by Burpee Seed in the 1950's.

Faye Tarzwell 02-09-2003 04:32 PM

Mutation in "Goldsturm" Black-Eyed Susans
 
What surprised me was that the patch the new one was in had grown last year
and there was no red in them...
I grew mine from the Mackenzie seeds (hirta variety).
Thank you for your explanation and I love your site and all the pictures
:)))

FayeC
zone 5a

"paghat" wrote in message
...
In article , "Faye Tarzwell"
wrote:

I have a few patches of "Goldsturm" Black-Eyed Susan and they have

bloomed
for 2 years now.
I planted them in the spring of 2002 from seed (McKenzie seeds).
This year I noticed that one patch had a slightly mutated version of the
"Goldsturm" Black-Eyed Susan. It was the same flower shape but the

petals
were half yellow (edges) and half red.
Anybody heard of such mutation?

FayeC
zone 5a


Goldsturm seeds do not grow true. Most of us who have "Goldsturm" cannot
always be totally certain we have the real deal, unless knowing the
grower, & that they were started from stem cuttings (or from spring
division of one's own known "Goldsturm"). Seeds from Jelitto or Behnke &
elsewhere are "approximations" only. When the seed producers are
criticized for this, they shrug it off as their good & honest intennt to
produce seeds commercially that will result in plants "nearly uniform" or
"pretty close" to Goldsturm -- that's their goal, & that's why they call
them "Goldsturm." But the reality is you can never be certain what will
grow from these seeds (if gotten from actual "Goldsturm" stocks) & anyone
claiming stronger uniformity is probably selling the wild Sullivant's
Rudbeckia, a subspecies, falsely labeled "Goldsturm," as the wild
supbspecies seeds ARE apt to be uniform.

The unpredictability of what grows from these seeds MIGHT conceivably
result in something that's actually a sport worth saving & developing
(rather than just the usual reversion to the lankier wild subspecies), &
since the petals on yours are half red, that might indeed be the rare
"something" worth working with to preserve. But to me it sounds like
you're describing a completely different cultivar mixed into the packets
from carelessly sourced & intentionally mislabeled pseudo "Goldsturm"
seeds.

-paghat the ratgirl

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
See the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com/





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