On Thu, 16 Oct 2003 23:44:31 -0400, vincent p. norris opined:

Balanced fertilizer is no longer the most effective.

http://www.ci.austin.tx.us/growgreen/greenhouse.htm

For some reason, I can't get that web site. But I have a a couple of
questions.

The word "balanced" traditionally has meant the same quantity of N,P,
and K, such as 5-5-5, 10-10-10, 20-20-20, and so forth. Is that
correct?

A year or so I read, somewhere, that the problem with that definition
of "balanced" is that plants don't need the same amounts of N, P, and
K. They need them in the ratio, IIRC, 5-2-3.

Is that also correct?

But would grass (and perhaps "foliage plants" need a different ratio
than plants that produce blossoms? or tomatoes?

(Is that what the web site is about? I'll keep trying to get it.)

Thanks. vince norris

I just tried the link and it worked fine for me.

Try this and navigate till you find the info on turf management:

http://www.ci.austin.tx.us/growgreen

Their study showed the ratio 8-2-4, which can also be 4-1 2 or 16-4-8. However,
most people over fertilize with highly soluble, synthetic nitrogen and it
leaches out of the soil rapidly and give no organic matter to the soil. Organic
fertilizers do add OM to the soil. People feed the turf, people in the organic
community feed the soil organisms which in turn feed the roots the available
elements in a much slower, gentler way.

I've not seen it at Lowes here in this area of Austin...actually Round Rock.
I'll seek it out, but the alfalfa pellets are sold much cheaper at tack and feed
stores. It's virtually the same thing.

V


On Fri, 17 Oct 2003 07:36:12 -0500, J Kolenovsky opined:

On their website is a retailer dealer locator. Well, wouldn't you know
it? I just clicked it and its in repair. Seems like Lowe's was one of
the retailers. The Texas rep is Greg Phillips: Fort Worth, Texas Phone:
(817) 731-9141.

Less turf, more diversity. Yes!

JK

animaux wrote:

Actually, Bradfield is a terrific fertilizer. I used to be able to have access
to it up in the Dallas are, but I haven't found it anywhere in Austin or
surrounding. Do you have a source in Austin?

I like it for a few reasons, but mainly for the material it's made of. There is
so much organic matter in it, that it serves as both fertilizer and almost as a
compost top dress.

What I've done is to buy alfalfa hay, and pellets from the tack and feed store
and I've been using it on very sunny areas of turf. It's moot now because all
of that turf is coming out in about a week. Less and less turf. I love that!

Victoria

On Wed, 15 Oct 2003 17:54:49 -0500, J Kolenovsky opined:

An ORGANIC one.

These guys are out of Springfield, MO - http://www.bradfieldind.com/

JK


Chris Farmer wrote:

I am in the process of getting my lawn ready for winter and spring.

I plan to power rake the lawn to remove thatch,
Aerate with a rented machine
spread seed
and apply 1/4" or so of top soil

My question is which fertilizer is appropriate?

Winterizer or starter fertilizer for the seed?
The levels of nutrients vary greatly and I don't want to plant a bunch
of seed and use winterizer only have the seed suffer through a harsh
winter.

I live in MO, so we get into the single digits at times during winter.

Any advice would be appreicated

V., you know, I always heard that about Alfalfa and read a bit here and
there until now. I went and found what's in the stuff. Gosh, darn, the
stuff is loaded.

Ingredients:

Alfalfa ingredients:

Triacontanol (growth stimulant) =

Vitamin A (high concentration) =

Thiamine =

Riboflavin =

Pantothenic Acid =

Niacin =

Pyridoxine =

Choline =

Bentaine =

Folic Acid =

co-enzymes =

Crude proteins (16 - 25% in dry alfalfa) =


Amino acids (% in alfalfa meal).

Tryptophan, 0.3 % =

Aspartic Acid, 2.3% =

Threonine, 1.0 % =

Serine, 1.0% =

Glutamic Acid, 2.7% =

Proline, 1.2% =

Glycine, 1.1% =

Alanine, 1.1% =

Cystine, 0.2% =

Valine, 1.0% =

Methionine, 0.3% =

Isoleucine, 0.8% =

Leucine, 1.6% =

Tyrosine, 0.5% =

Phenylalanine, 1.0% =

Histidine, 0.4% =

Lysine, Total, 1.1% =

Arginine, 1.1% =


Minerals (contained in dry alfalfa)

Nitrogen 3.75-5.5 % =

Potassium .75 - 3.5 % =

Phosphorus .3 - .7% =

Calcium 1 - 2 % =

Magnesium .30 - 1 % =

Sulphur .2 - .5 % =

Manganese 30-200 ppm =

Iron 20-250 ppm =

Boron 20-80 ppm =

Copper 5-20 ppm =

Zinc 20-70 ppm =


Alfalfa tea is a natural and inexpensive fertilizer.
Alfalfa pellets and meal are available from garden
and feed supply stores in 50 lb. bags. Get together
with your neighbors to share the cost (and
transportation) of a bag or two. Pellets are easier to
handle, but I feel that the meal makes a better
fertilizer. Some also say that the higher temperature
processing that goes into making pellets lowers the
nutrient value of the alfalfa. Epsom salts are also
available in bulk. In our area, Buckerfield's, Borden
Merchantile and Integrity stock bulk feeds and
fertilizers.

Dry alfalfa is a good slow-release source of nitrogen,
but since you will be "digesting" it by letting it
ferment in water, the resulting tea is a soluable,
fast-acting nitrogen source. Also, by making alfalfa
(or manure) tea, you don't have to worry about weed
seeds sprouting from the fertilizer. =


If you don't have time to make alfalfa tea, you can
still sprinke alfalfa pellets on the ground in the spring
- however the nutrients will take much longer to be
released, it doesn't look as attractive, and the pellets
can attract rodents. A better solution would be to use
Complete Organic mix and add extra alfalfa meal to
it, then scratch it into the surface of the soil.

Orchid and rose growers use alfalfa tea as a foliar
spray. If you grow delphiniums and irises, they also
love alfalfa tea. Some iris growers mulch their beds
with alfalfa meal. And an additional benefit for
delphiniums is that the Epsom salts in the tea help to
ward off slugs and snails. In addition to nitrogen,
alfalfa supplies enzymes and trace elements that are
not present in chemical nitrogen fertilizers.

JK




animaux wrote:
=

I've not seen it at Lowes here in this area of Austin...actually Round =
Rock.
I'll seek it out, but the alfalfa pellets are sold much cheaper at tack=
and feed
stores. It's virtually the same thing.
=

V
=

On Fri, 17 Oct 2003 07:36:12 -0500, J Kolenovsky op=
ined:
=

On their website is a retailer dealer locator. Well, wouldn't you know=

it? I just clicked it and its in repair. Seems like Lowe's was one of
the retailers. The Texas rep is Greg Phillips: Fort Worth, Texas Phon=
e:
(817) 731-9141.

Less turf, more diversity. Yes!

JK

animaux wrote:

Actually, Bradfield is a terrific fertilizer. I used to be able to =
have access
to it up in the Dallas are, but I haven't found it anywhere in Austi=
n or
surrounding. Do you have a source in Austin?

I like it for a few reasons, but mainly for the material it's made o=
f. There is
so much organic matter in it, that it serves as both fertilizer and =
almost as a
compost top dress.

What I've done is to buy alfalfa hay, and pellets from the tack and =
feed store
and I've been using it on very sunny areas of turf. It's moot now b=
ecause all
of that turf is coming out in about a week. Less and less turf. I =
love that!

Victoria

On Wed, 15 Oct 2003 17:54:49 -0500, J Kolenovsky =
opined:

An ORGANIC one.

These guys are out of Springfield, MO - http://www.bradfieldind.com=
/

JK


Chris Farmer wrote:

I am in the process of getting my lawn ready for winter and sprin=
g.

I plan to power rake the lawn to remove thatch,
Aerate with a rented machine
spread seed
and apply 1/4" or so of top soil

My question is which fertilizer is appropriate?

Winterizer or starter fertilizer for the seed?
The levels of nutrients vary greatly and I don't want to plant a =
bunch
of seed and use winterizer only have the seed suffer through a ha=
rsh
winter.

I live in MO, so we get into the single digits at times during wi=
nter.

Any advice would be appreicated

-- =

J. Kolenovsky, A+, Network +, MCP
=F4=BF=F4 - http://www.celestialhabitats.com - business
=F4=BF=F4 - http://www.hal-pc.org/~garden/personal.html - personal

V., you got me started:

Where can you get Cheap Natural Fertilizers and Soil Amendments?

"Chemical fertilizers rely on an assumption that plants only need three
elements to survive and thrive. Nitrogen, phosphorus, and potassium are
those three. This is the equivalent of saying that we need protein, fat,
and sugar to live. While this may be mostly true, pure protein, pure
fat, and pure sugar do nothing to supply the vitamins,minerals, and
diverse supply of bacteria and fungi in our diets. =


Here is a list of a dozen things that you can do with organically fed
soil that cannot be achieved with conventional chemical feeding. =


1. Decompose plant residues and manure to humus. =


2. Retain nutrients in the form of stable humus. =


3. Combine nitrogen and carbon to prevent nutrient loss. =


4. Suppress fungus and bacterial diseases. =


5. Produce plant growth regulators. =


6. Develop soil structure, tilth, and water penetration/retention. =


7. Clean up chemical residues. =


8. Shift soil pH to neutral and keep it there. =


9. Search out and retrieve nutrients in distant parts of the soil. =


10. Decompose thatch and keep it from returning. =


11. Control nitrogen supply to the plants according to need. =


12. Pull minerals out of inorganic soil components for plants. =

=


Soil microbes need sugar and protein to thrive. When you apply synthetic
ferts, none of the things on this list gets done. The microbes normally
get sugar from plant roots. Protein in nature comes from dead insects,
plants, and animals. The organic gardener applies protein artificially
in the form or organic fertilizers. It is usually in the form ofa ground
up meal made from plants and animals to try to replicate the natural
process." =


************************************************** ***** =


With that being said, many times it is difficult to find good organic or
natural fertilizers and soil amendments from garden stores because most
of the garden people that we meet are non-organic users. Therefore as an
organic gardener, we have to be creative in order to find our supplies. =


This is a simple list of sources for uses in foliar teas, composting and
green manure techniques, and other soil amendments: =


1. Deer plot mixes - 50 lb bag is a great source of economical cool
season cover crop seeds. Most contain a mixture of legumes and
grasses like crimson clover or hairy vetch or winter peas, oats, winter
wheat, and rye. =


2. Catfish or pond fish feed - Excellent source of alfalfa meal and fish
meal for topdressing or compost teas. =


3. Cat or Dog foods - Good source of corn gluten meal for weed seed
suppression control in lawns or gardens. =

=


4. Seaweed - If you can't collect it free from the beach, you can buy
economical packs of fresh seaweed from oriental markets for compost
teas. Take all your remains from your teas and recycle them into your
compost piles. If you liquify the seaweed in a juice, you can use the
whole product as a foliar feed or soil drench. Even though most
fertilizer companies rate seaweed with a NPK of 0-0-1, it contains at
least 1% total N and over 3%total P. Seaweed may contain as much as 60
trace elements. Seaweed and other algae plants are some of the greatest
soil amendments on earth, or should I say in the ocean. Seaweed also
contains beneficial growth hormones and benefical fungal food sources
for soil microbes. =


5. Fish emulsion - Commercial brands contain no fish oil and little or
no aerobic bacteria. Homemade versions supply extra beneficial oils for
beneficial fungi and fish bones for extra calcium. Free fresh fish parts
are the best if available. However, cheap canned fish products will do
fine. Experiment with canned mackerel, sardines, herring, etc. If the
fishy smell is a big issue, just mix your fish products with a lot of
high carbon sources like sawdust, leaves, or straw in a 5 gallon closed
bucket. Let this mix decompose for at least a week or more before adding
to the hot compost pile or to your compost tea recipes. The extra
carbons will help absorb the offensive odors as well as keep most of the
organic nitrogen in your compost pile or your compost teas. Also the
aerobic bacteria kill break down any bad pathogens that may exist in
decaying fish meat. Read the other FAQ's on aerated teas and homemade
fish/seaweed emulsions also. =


6. Fava beans, soybeans, and other legume cover crops - Mostly all
bagged dry beans and peas in grocery stores will sprout and make great
warm season green manures. Fava beans and soybeans can found in oriental
markets or health food markets. =


7. Horse and cattle feeds - These contain a great supply of alfalfa meal
and corn meal and other proteins for soil amendments or compost teas.
The whole corn or oat seeds in the bags, may sprout and give you an
extra green manure benefit. The extra molasses ingredient from the feeds
draws and breeds lots of beneficial soil
organisms. Molasses also contains sulfurwhich acts as a mild natural
fungicide also. =


8. Corn meal - very cheap source for a nitrogen activator for heating up
the compost pile or as a topdressing. Great natural fungicide also. =


9. Molasses, brown sugar, corn syrup - source of fast consuming sugars
for feeding and breeding the aerobic bacteria in compost teas. Most
microherd populations love the high carbon content in sugar products.
Sugars are best dissolved and broken down by microbes in compost tea
that has brewed at least 1-3 days, before applying to the soil. If too
much sugar is added on soil straight as a topdressing, it may cause a
temporary nitrogen deficiency in the soil as the microherd populations
grow too fast. Molasses also contains sulfur which acts as a mild
natural fungicide also. Molasses is also a great natural deodorizer for
fishy teas. =


10. Alfalfa meal - best source is 50 lb bags of rabbit food or alfalfa
hay bales. There are also 100% alfalfa pet litter or beddings if
available. Alfalfa products are best used in teas, mulches, or as
top dressings. =


11. Blood and Bone meal - this classic combo can be found almost
everywhere these days. However blood meal is very expensive. Bone meal
can be even cheaper if purchased in 20 lb bags from feed stores. Since
blood meal is totally soluble, it can be added to compost tea recipes..
With a NPK around 11-0-0, it has the highest total nitrogen ratio of all
natural fertilizers, and may burn plants if used improperly. Steamed
bone meal has a recorded NPK around 0-11-0. Usually steamed bone meal
has a total N from 1-6%, 11% soluble P but 20% total P, and 24% calcium.
Raw bone meal has more total N but none of the P is water soluble. =


12. Urine - yes, human urine is an excellent source of organic nitrogen
for compost teas or as a free nitrogen activator for composting (45% N).
(NOTE: Unlike human manure, any
pathogens, diseases, or other mild toxins in human urine are quickly
killed and digested within 24 hours after they escape the human body.
Therefore human urine is very safe for all types of composting methods.) =

=

13. Animal Manures - High in N and great sources of P and K and soil
microbes. Use only vegetarian animal manures, like cattle or horses! DO
NOT EVER USE DOG OR CAT POOP! It is extremely dangerous to humans. There
are special composting procedures that must be performed to use toxic,
heavy metal manures like pet poop and human manures. So don't do it!
Always compost animal manures first
or use aged animal manures before applying to the soil or as an
ingredient in foliar teas. =


14. Grass Clippings and Green Weeds - Excellent sources or organic N for
special foliar teas or use as an organic mulch/top dressing. Some
gardeners even hot compost strange weeds and herbs like kudzu, bull
thistle, dandelions, comfrey, stinging nettle, thorns, ivy, etc. =


The above soil amendment products can also be buried straight in the
garden soil for trench composting. You can also bury these materials in
planting holes under the roots of heavy feeder transplants like tomatoes
for extra NPK for plant growth. =


All natural soil amendments as well as homemade compost, do more than
just fertilize the soil and growing plants. Most natural soil amendments
have a total NPK rating sum total less than 20 (i.e. fish emulsion NPK =3D=

5-1-1,compost NPK less than 4-4-4). Don't be fooled by the numbers. Most
P and K ratings only record the soluble available portions in the
products. The N portion recorded could be either the soluble, insoluble,
or total N portions as based on the company. The insoluble non-reported
portion of OM is continuously consumed and broken down with the existing
OM in the garden soil, thus raising the available soluble nutrients for
further season crops. =


Happy Gardening! =

=

J. Kolenovsky

http://www.celestialhabitats.com/

http://www.hal-pc.org/~garden



animaux wrote:
=

I've not seen it at Lowes here in this area of Austin...actually Round =
Rock.
I'll seek it out, but the alfalfa pellets are sold much cheaper at tack=
and feed
stores. It's virtually the same thing.
=

V
=

On Fri, 17 Oct 2003 07:36:12 -0500, J Kolenovsky op=
ined:
=

On their website is a retailer dealer locator. Well, wouldn't you know=

it? I just clicked it and its in repair. Seems like Lowe's was one of
the retailers. The Texas rep is Greg Phillips: Fort Worth, Texas Phon=
e:
(817) 731-9141.

Less turf, more diversity. Yes!

JK

animaux wrote:

Actually, Bradfield is a terrific fertilizer. I used to be able to =
have access
to it up in the Dallas are, but I haven't found it anywhere in Austi=
n or
surrounding. Do you have a source in Austin?

I like it for a few reasons, but mainly for the material it's made o=
f. There is
so much organic matter in it, that it serves as both fertilizer and =
almost as a
compost top dress.

What I've done is to buy alfalfa hay, and pellets from the tack and =
feed store
and I've been using it on very sunny areas of turf. It's moot now b=
ecause all
of that turf is coming out in about a week. Less and less turf. I =
love that!

Victoria

On Wed, 15 Oct 2003 17:54:49 -0500, J Kolenovsky =
opined:

An ORGANIC one.

These guys are out of Springfield, MO - http://www.bradfieldind.com=
/

JK


Chris Farmer wrote:

I am in the process of getting my lawn ready for winter and sprin=
g.

I plan to power rake the lawn to remove thatch,
Aerate with a rented machine
spread seed
and apply 1/4" or so of top soil

My question is which fertilizer is appropriate?

Winterizer or starter fertilizer for the seed?
The levels of nutrients vary greatly and I don't want to plant a =
bunch
of seed and use winterizer only have the seed suffer through a ha=
rsh
winter.

I live in MO, so we get into the single digits at times during wi=
nter.

Any advice would be appreicated

-- =

J. Kolenovsky, A+, Network +, MCP
=F4=BF=F4 - http://www.celestialhabitats.com - business
=F4=BF=F4 - http://www.hal-pc.org/~garden/personal.html - personal

Found this on the alfalfa meal:

Alfalfa Meal 2.5-1-1 =


Alfalfa Meal is a reasonable alternative to blood meal as a source of
nitrogen and is nicely balanced with phosphorous and
potassium. It's carbohydrates and protein make it
an excellent soil conditioner by encouraging microbial activity in the
soil. =


New Plantings: Mix 1/2 cup per plant into the soil.

Existing Plants: Mix 1/2 to 1 cup of Alfalfa Meal to a depth of 4-6
inches.

Beds: Work 2-5 lbs of Alfalfa meal into each 100 square feet of bed
area.

Guaranteed Analysis: =

Total Nitrogen (N) 2.5%
0.6% Water Soluble Natural Nitrogen
1.9% Water Insoluble Natural Nitrogen\
1.0% Available Phosphoric Acid (P2O5)
1.0% Soluble Potash (K2O)
=



SC3158 Alfalfa Meal, 5 lb (7#) $8.95 =

SC3159 Alfalfa Meal, 25 lb. (27#) $16.90 =

SC3160 Alfalfa Meal, 50 lb. (52#) $21.00

JK

animaux wrote:
=

I've not seen it at Lowes here in this area of Austin...actually Round =
Rock.
I'll seek it out, but the alfalfa pellets are sold much cheaper at tack=
and feed
stores. It's virtually the same thing.
=

V
=

On Fri, 17 Oct 2003 07:36:12 -0500, J Kolenovsky op=
ined:
=

On their website is a retailer dealer locator. Well, wouldn't you know=

it? I just clicked it and its in repair. Seems like Lowe's was one of
the retailers. The Texas rep is Greg Phillips: Fort Worth, Texas Phon=
e:
(817) 731-9141.

Less turf, more diversity. Yes!

JK

animaux wrote:

Actually, Bradfield is a terrific fertilizer. I used to be able to =
have access
to it up in the Dallas are, but I haven't found it anywhere in Austi=
n or
surrounding. Do you have a source in Austin?

I like it for a few reasons, but mainly for the material it's made o=
f. There is
so much organic matter in it, that it serves as both fertilizer and =
almost as a
compost top dress.

What I've done is to buy alfalfa hay, and pellets from the tack and =
feed store
and I've been using it on very sunny areas of turf. It's moot now b=
ecause all
of that turf is coming out in about a week. Less and less turf. I =
love that!

Victoria

On Wed, 15 Oct 2003 17:54:49 -0500, J Kolenovsky =
opined:

An ORGANIC one.

These guys are out of Springfield, MO - http://www.bradfieldind.com=
/

JK


Chris Farmer wrote:

I am in the process of getting my lawn ready for winter and sprin=
g.

I plan to power rake the lawn to remove thatch,
Aerate with a rented machine
spread seed
and apply 1/4" or so of top soil

My question is which fertilizer is appropriate?

Winterizer or starter fertilizer for the seed?
The levels of nutrients vary greatly and I don't want to plant a =
bunch
of seed and use winterizer only have the seed suffer through a ha=
rsh
winter.

I live in MO, so we get into the single digits at times during wi=
nter.

Any advice would be appreicated

-- =

J. Kolenovsky, A+, Network +, MCP
=F4=BF=F4 - http://www.celestialhabitats.com - business
=F4=BF=F4 - http://www.hal-pc.org/~garden/personal.html - personal

Yes, I've known this for many years. The feed store I buy it at makes their own
alfalfa hay and products. Alfalfa is so rich, it can mess up hoofs of horses,
giraffes, and animal which eats too much of it.

If I buy pellets, I just throw the on the lawn after they come core aerate. I
put it in the compost pile, throw it out on the beds, it's just great stuff
which is a great mulch as hay. Especially in vegetable beds.

So, now you're on to it. I buy 50 pound bags for about 16 dollars in
Georgetown.

V


On Fri, 17 Oct 2003 16:19:40 -0500, J Kolenovsky opined:

V., you know, I always heard that about Alfalfa and read a bit here and
there until now. I went and found what's in the stuff. Gosh, darn, the
stuff is loaded.

Ingredients:

Alfalfa ingredients:

Triacontanol (growth stimulant)
Vitamin A (high concentration)
Thiamine
Riboflavin
Pantothenic Acid
Niacin
Pyridoxine
Choline
Bentaine
Folic Acid
co-enzymes
Crude proteins (16 - 25% in dry alfalfa)

Amino acids (% in alfalfa meal).

Tryptophan, 0.3 %
Aspartic Acid, 2.3%
Threonine, 1.0 %
Serine, 1.0%
Glutamic Acid, 2.7%
Proline, 1.2%
Glycine, 1.1%
Alanine, 1.1%
Cystine, 0.2%
Valine, 1.0%
Methionine, 0.3%
Isoleucine, 0.8%
Leucine, 1.6%
Tyrosine, 0.5%
Phenylalanine, 1.0%
Histidine, 0.4%
Lysine, Total, 1.1%
Arginine, 1.1%

Minerals (contained in dry alfalfa)

Nitrogen 3.75-5.5 %
Potassium .75 - 3.5 %
Phosphorus .3 - .7%
Calcium 1 - 2 %
Magnesium .30 - 1 %
Sulphur .2 - .5 %
Manganese 30-200 ppm
Iron 20-250 ppm
Boron 20-80 ppm
Copper 5-20 ppm
Zinc 20-70 ppm

Alfalfa tea is a natural and inexpensive fertilizer.
Alfalfa pellets and meal are available from garden
and feed supply stores in 50 lb. bags. Get together
with your neighbors to share the cost (and
transportation) of a bag or two. Pellets are easier to
handle, but I feel that the meal makes a better
fertilizer. Some also say that the higher temperature
processing that goes into making pellets lowers the
nutrient value of the alfalfa. Epsom salts are also
available in bulk. In our area, Buckerfield's, Borden
Merchantile and Integrity stock bulk feeds and
fertilizers.

Dry alfalfa is a good slow-release source of nitrogen,
but since you will be "digesting" it by letting it
ferment in water, the resulting tea is a soluable,
fast-acting nitrogen source. Also, by making alfalfa
(or manure) tea, you don't have to worry about weed
seeds sprouting from the fertilizer.

If you don't have time to make alfalfa tea, you can
still sprinke alfalfa pellets on the ground in the spring
- however the nutrients will take much longer to be
released, it doesn't look as attractive, and the pellets
can attract rodents. A better solution would be to use
Complete Organic mix and add extra alfalfa meal to
it, then scratch it into the surface of the soil.

Orchid and rose growers use alfalfa tea as a foliar
spray. If you grow delphiniums and irises, they also
love alfalfa tea. Some iris growers mulch their beds
with alfalfa meal. And an additional benefit for
delphiniums is that the Epsom salts in the tea help to
ward off slugs and snails. In addition to nitrogen,
alfalfa supplies enzymes and trace elements that are
not present in chemical nitrogen fertilizers.

JK




animaux wrote:

I've not seen it at Lowes here in this area of Austin...actually Round Rock.
I'll seek it out, but the alfalfa pellets are sold much cheaper at tack and feed
stores. It's virtually the same thing.

V

On Fri, 17 Oct 2003 07:36:12 -0500, J Kolenovsky opined:

On their website is a retailer dealer locator. Well, wouldn't you know
it? I just clicked it and its in repair. Seems like Lowe's was one of
the retailers. The Texas rep is Greg Phillips: Fort Worth, Texas Phone:
(817) 731-9141.

Less turf, more diversity. Yes!

JK

animaux wrote:

Actually, Bradfield is a terrific fertilizer. I used to be able to have access
to it up in the Dallas are, but I haven't found it anywhere in Austin or
surrounding. Do you have a source in Austin?

I like it for a few reasons, but mainly for the material it's made of. There is
so much organic matter in it, that it serves as both fertilizer and almost as a
compost top dress.

What I've done is to buy alfalfa hay, and pellets from the tack and feed store
and I've been using it on very sunny areas of turf. It's moot now because all
of that turf is coming out in about a week. Less and less turf. I love that!

Victoria

On Wed, 15 Oct 2003 17:54:49 -0500, J Kolenovsky opined:

An ORGANIC one.

These guys are out of Springfield, MO - http://www.bradfieldind.com/

JK


Chris Farmer wrote:

I am in the process of getting my lawn ready for winter and spring.

I plan to power rake the lawn to remove thatch,
Aerate with a rented machine
spread seed
and apply 1/4" or so of top soil

My question is which fertilizer is appropriate?

Winterizer or starter fertilizer for the seed?
The levels of nutrients vary greatly and I don't want to plant a bunch
of seed and use winterizer only have the seed suffer through a harsh
winter.

I live in MO, so we get into the single digits at times during winter.

Any advice would be appreicated

On Fri, 17 Oct 2003 16:22:25 -0500, J Kolenovsky opined:

V., you got me started:

Where can you get Cheap Natural Fertilizers and Soil Amendments?

"Chemical fertilizers rely on an assumption that plants only need three
elements to survive and thrive. Nitrogen, phosphorus, and potassium are
those three. This is the equivalent of saying that we need protein, fat,
and sugar to live. While this may be mostly true, pure protein, pure
fat, and pure sugar do nothing to supply the vitamins,minerals, and
diverse supply of bacteria and fungi in our diets.

Liebig, who is the father of synthetic fertilizer, and who insisted for many
years that it was all plants need, that plants do not need humates. At the end
of his life he realized he was wrong, but it was too late and the money
machine which sold plenty of synthetic fertilizer was already in full motion.
To this day, the manufacturers will insist all you need are N-P-K. WRONG.

The rest of this post is excellent. I am going to save it to repost every now
and then.

V

Here is a list of a dozen things that you can do with organically fed
soil that cannot be achieved with conventional chemical feeding.

1. Decompose plant residues and manure to humus.

2. Retain nutrients in the form of stable humus.

3. Combine nitrogen and carbon to prevent nutrient loss.

4. Suppress fungus and bacterial diseases.

5. Produce plant growth regulators.

6. Develop soil structure, tilth, and water penetration/retention.

7. Clean up chemical residues.

8. Shift soil pH to neutral and keep it there.

9. Search out and retrieve nutrients in distant parts of the soil.

10. Decompose thatch and keep it from returning.

11. Control nitrogen supply to the plants according to need.

12. Pull minerals out of inorganic soil components for plants.


Soil microbes need sugar and protein to thrive. When you apply synthetic
ferts, none of the things on this list gets done. The microbes normally
get sugar from plant roots. Protein in nature comes from dead insects,
plants, and animals. The organic gardener applies protein artificially
in the form or organic fertilizers. It is usually in the form ofa ground
up meal made from plants and animals to try to replicate the natural
process."

************************************************** *****

With that being said, many times it is difficult to find good organic or
natural fertilizers and soil amendments from garden stores because most
of the garden people that we meet are non-organic users. Therefore as an
organic gardener, we have to be creative in order to find our supplies.

This is a simple list of sources for uses in foliar teas, composting and
green manure techniques, and other soil amendments:

1. Deer plot mixes - 50 lb bag is a great source of economical cool
season cover crop seeds. Most contain a mixture of legumes and
grasses like crimson clover or hairy vetch or winter peas, oats, winter
wheat, and rye.

2. Catfish or pond fish feed - Excellent source of alfalfa meal and fish
meal for topdressing or compost teas.

3. Cat or Dog foods - Good source of corn gluten meal for weed seed
suppression control in lawns or gardens.


4. Seaweed - If you can't collect it free from the beach, you can buy
economical packs of fresh seaweed from oriental markets for compost
teas. Take all your remains from your teas and recycle them into your
compost piles. If you liquify the seaweed in a juice, you can use the
whole product as a foliar feed or soil drench. Even though most
fertilizer companies rate seaweed with a NPK of 0-0-1, it contains at
least 1% total N and over 3%total P. Seaweed may contain as much as 60
trace elements. Seaweed and other algae plants are some of the greatest
soil amendments on earth, or should I say in the ocean. Seaweed also
contains beneficial growth hormones and benefical fungal food sources
for soil microbes.

5. Fish emulsion - Commercial brands contain no fish oil and little or
no aerobic bacteria. Homemade versions supply extra beneficial oils for
beneficial fungi and fish bones for extra calcium. Free fresh fish parts
are the best if available. However, cheap canned fish products will do
fine. Experiment with canned mackerel, sardines, herring, etc. If the
fishy smell is a big issue, just mix your fish products with a lot of
high carbon sources like sawdust, leaves, or straw in a 5 gallon closed
bucket. Let this mix decompose for at least a week or more before adding
to the hot compost pile or to your compost tea recipes. The extra
carbons will help absorb the offensive odors as well as keep most of the
organic nitrogen in your compost pile or your compost teas. Also the
aerobic bacteria kill break down any bad pathogens that may exist in
decaying fish meat. Read the other FAQ's on aerated teas and homemade
fish/seaweed emulsions also.

6. Fava beans, soybeans, and other legume cover crops - Mostly all
bagged dry beans and peas in grocery stores will sprout and make great
warm season green manures. Fava beans and soybeans can found in oriental
markets or health food markets.

7. Horse and cattle feeds - These contain a great supply of alfalfa meal
and corn meal and other proteins for soil amendments or compost teas.
The whole corn or oat seeds in the bags, may sprout and give you an
extra green manure benefit. The extra molasses ingredient from the feeds
draws and breeds lots of beneficial soil
organisms. Molasses also contains sulfurwhich acts as a mild natural
fungicide also.

8. Corn meal - very cheap source for a nitrogen activator for heating up
the compost pile or as a topdressing. Great natural fungicide also.

9. Molasses, brown sugar, corn syrup - source of fast consuming sugars
for feeding and breeding the aerobic bacteria in compost teas. Most
microherd populations love the high carbon content in sugar products.
Sugars are best dissolved and broken down by microbes in compost tea
that has brewed at least 1-3 days, before applying to the soil. If too
much sugar is added on soil straight as a topdressing, it may cause a
temporary nitrogen deficiency in the soil as the microherd populations
grow too fast. Molasses also contains sulfur which acts as a mild
natural fungicide also. Molasses is also a great natural deodorizer for
fishy teas.

10. Alfalfa meal - best source is 50 lb bags of rabbit food or alfalfa
hay bales. There are also 100% alfalfa pet litter or beddings if
available. Alfalfa products are best used in teas, mulches, or as
top dressings.

11. Blood and Bone meal - this classic combo can be found almost
everywhere these days. However blood meal is very expensive. Bone meal
can be even cheaper if purchased in 20 lb bags from feed stores. Since
blood meal is totally soluble, it can be added to compost tea recipes..
With a NPK around 11-0-0, it has the highest total nitrogen ratio of all
natural fertilizers, and may burn plants if used improperly. Steamed
bone meal has a recorded NPK around 0-11-0. Usually steamed bone meal
has a total N from 1-6%, 11% soluble P but 20% total P, and 24% calcium.
Raw bone meal has more total N but none of the P is water soluble.

12. Urine - yes, human urine is an excellent source of organic nitrogen
for compost teas or as a free nitrogen activator for composting (45% N).
(NOTE: Unlike human manure, any
pathogens, diseases, or other mild toxins in human urine are quickly
killed and digested within 24 hours after they escape the human body.
Therefore human urine is very safe for all types of composting methods.)

13. Animal Manures - High in N and great sources of P and K and soil
microbes. Use only vegetarian animal manures, like cattle or horses! DO
NOT EVER USE DOG OR CAT POOP! It is extremely dangerous to humans. There
are special composting procedures that must be performed to use toxic,
heavy metal manures like pet poop and human manures. So don't do it!
Always compost animal manures first
or use aged animal manures before applying to the soil or as an
ingredient in foliar teas.

14. Grass Clippings and Green Weeds - Excellent sources or organic N for
special foliar teas or use as an organic mulch/top dressing. Some
gardeners even hot compost strange weeds and herbs like kudzu, bull
thistle, dandelions, comfrey, stinging nettle, thorns, ivy, etc.

The above soil amendment products can also be buried straight in the
garden soil for trench composting. You can also bury these materials in
planting holes under the roots of heavy feeder transplants like tomatoes
for extra NPK for plant growth.

All natural soil amendments as well as homemade compost, do more than
just fertilize the soil and growing plants. Most natural soil amendments
have a total NPK rating sum total less than 20 (i.e. fish emulsion NPK =
5-1-1,compost NPK less than 4-4-4). Don't be fooled by the numbers. Most
P and K ratings only record the soluble available portions in the
products. The N portion recorded could be either the soluble, insoluble,
or total N portions as based on the company. The insoluble non-reported
portion of OM is continuously consumed and broken down with the existing
OM in the garden soil, thus raising the available soluble nutrients for
further season crops.

Happy Gardening!

J. Kolenovsky

http://www.celestialhabitats.com/

http://www.hal-pc.org/~garden



animaux wrote:

I've not seen it at Lowes here in this area of Austin...actually Round Rock.
I'll seek it out, but the alfalfa pellets are sold much cheaper at tack and feed
stores. It's virtually the same thing.

V

On Fri, 17 Oct 2003 07:36:12 -0500, J Kolenovsky opined:

On their website is a retailer dealer locator. Well, wouldn't you know
it? I just clicked it and its in repair. Seems like Lowe's was one of
the retailers. The Texas rep is Greg Phillips: Fort Worth, Texas Phone:
(817) 731-9141.

Less turf, more diversity. Yes!

JK

animaux wrote:

Actually, Bradfield is a terrific fertilizer. I used to be able to have access
to it up in the Dallas are, but I haven't found it anywhere in Austin or
surrounding. Do you have a source in Austin?

I like it for a few reasons, but mainly for the material it's made of. There is
so much organic matter in it, that it serves as both fertilizer and almost as a
compost top dress.

What I've done is to buy alfalfa hay, and pellets from the tack and feed store
and I've been using it on very sunny areas of turf. It's moot now because all
of that turf is coming out in about a week. Less and less turf. I love that!

Victoria

On Wed, 15 Oct 2003 17:54:49 -0500, J Kolenovsky opined:

An ORGANIC one.

These guys are out of Springfield, MO - http://www.bradfieldind.com/

JK


Chris Farmer wrote:

I am in the process of getting my lawn ready for winter and spring.

I plan to power rake the lawn to remove thatch,
Aerate with a rented machine
spread seed
and apply 1/4" or so of top soil

My question is which fertilizer is appropriate?

Winterizer or starter fertilizer for the seed?
The levels of nutrients vary greatly and I don't want to plant a bunch
of seed and use winterizer only have the seed suffer through a harsh
winter.

I live in MO, so we get into the single digits at times during winter.

Any advice would be appreicated

I just tried the link and it worked fine for me.

Try this and navigate till you find the info on turf management:

http://www.ci.austin.tx.us/growgreen

Still doesn't work for me. I think the problem is at my end, because
it's not unique to this site.

Thanks anyway.

vince norris

On Fri, 17 Oct 2003 16:22:25 -0500, J Kolenovsky
wrote:

"Chemical fertilizers rely on an assumption that plants only need three
elements to survive and thrive. Nitrogen, phosphorus, and potassium are
those three. This is the equivalent of saying that we need protein, fat,
and sugar to live. While this may be mostly true, pure protein, pure
fat, and pure sugar do nothing to supply the vitamins,minerals, and
diverse supply of bacteria and fungi in our diets. =


J

We have been using ACT and additonal fungi with incredible results.
You might find this link interesting.....

"Fertilization can produce large plants, but it often suppresses
mycorrhiza
formation. Fertilization lacks or even suppresses the other
important benefits of mycorrhiza. Fertilization cannot increase plant
species diversity; it tends to favor large individuals of the few most
vigorous species. Fertilization cannot improve plant survival, but
rather tends to favor a few large plants rather than many smaller
ones.
Fertilization does not make the site unfit for weeds, but instead
gives
them a nearly insurmountable competitive edge against native plants.
Fertilization does nothing to decrease root disease, favor beneficial
bacteria, or improve soil structure, perhaps the most important
effects
of mycorrhiza in natural systems. In a revegetation project,
fertilization
is often a serious mistake."

http://www.mycorrhiza.org/EXPERTflat.PDF

tomj

On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 10:41:46 -0700, lvhippy opined:

On Fri, 17 Oct 2003 16:22:25 -0500, J Kolenovsky
wrote:

"Chemical fertilizers rely on an assumption that plants only need three
elements to survive and thrive. Nitrogen, phosphorus, and potassium are
those three. This is the equivalent of saying that we need protein, fat,
and sugar to live. While this may be mostly true, pure protein, pure
fat, and pure sugar do nothing to supply the vitamins,minerals, and
diverse supply of bacteria and fungi in our diets. =


J

We have been using ACT and additonal fungi with incredible results.
You might find this link interesting.....

"Fertilization can produce large plants, but it often suppresses
mycorrhiza
formation. Fertilization lacks or even suppresses the other
important benefits of mycorrhiza. Fertilization cannot increase plant
species diversity; it tends to favor large individuals of the few most
vigorous species. Fertilization cannot improve plant survival, but
rather tends to favor a few large plants rather than many smaller
ones.
Fertilization does not make the site unfit for weeds, but instead
gives
them a nearly insurmountable competitive edge against native plants.
Fertilization does nothing to decrease root disease, favor beneficial
bacteria, or improve soil structure, perhaps the most important
effects
of mycorrhiza in natural systems. In a revegetation project,
fertilization
is often a serious mistake."

http://www.mycorrhiza.org/EXPERTflat.PDF

tomj

While a lot of this post is accurate, there are many non-successional plants
which are indicator plants for poor soil structure. The addition of some slow
release, naturally derived nitrogen, and other trace elements (key words "trace
elements") are a great way to put some balance into the soil and alleviate some
of the indicator weeds.

Victoria

If you can't fine the Bradfield fertilizer is really simular to Concern Weed
Prevention Plus which I found online at
http://www.merrifieldgardencenter.co...ts.php?pid=149


"J Kolenovsky" wrote in message
...
On their website is a retailer dealer locator. Well, wouldn't you know
it? I just clicked it and its in repair. Seems like Lowe's was one of
the retailers. The Texas rep is Greg Phillips: Fort Worth, Texas Phone:
(817) 731-9141.

Less turf, more diversity. Yes!

JK

animaux wrote:

Actually, Bradfield is a terrific fertilizer. I used to be able to have
access
to it up in the Dallas are, but I haven't found it anywhere in Austin or
surrounding. Do you have a source in Austin?

I like it for a few reasons, but mainly for the material it's made of.
There is
so much organic matter in it, that it serves as both fertilizer and almost
as a
compost top dress.

What I've done is to buy alfalfa hay, and pellets from the tack and feed
store
and I've been using it on very sunny areas of turf. It's moot now because
all
of that turf is coming out in about a week. Less and less turf. I love
that!

Victoria

On Wed, 15 Oct 2003 17:54:49 -0500, J Kolenovsky
opined:

An ORGANIC one.

These guys are out of Springfield, MO - http://www.bradfieldind.com/

JK


Chris Farmer wrote:

I am in the process of getting my lawn ready for winter and spring.

I plan to power rake the lawn to remove thatch,
Aerate with a rented machine
spread seed
and apply 1/4" or so of top soil

My question is which fertilizer is appropriate?

Winterizer or starter fertilizer for the seed?
The levels of nutrients vary greatly and I don't want to plant a bunch
of seed and use winterizer only have the seed suffer through a harsh
winter.

I live in MO, so we get into the single digits at times during winter.

Any advice would be appreicated

--
J. Kolenovsky, A+, Network +, MCP
ô¿ô - http://www.celestialhabitats.com - business
ô¿ô - http://www.hal-pc.org/~garden/personal.html - personal



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