"House Todorovich" wrote in message
...

snip

Grains are not that difficult, and can be harvested with a hand mower
(scythe), and hand winnowed and prepared.

1/4 acre of buckwheat / wheat / other grains will provide enough for a
family of four usually when combined with other foods.



Ever actually done this? or is this just an 'educated guess"?

Here is a good source for grains and other biointensive gardening info /
supplies:


http://www.bountifulgardens.org/seed...rains-seed.htm
l

I think five acres would be more than sufficient if you apply permaculture
type efforts. Remember one effort / multiple returns is best.

Strongly advise at least one acre pond, with running water, or solar well
to
keep it full. Fish are protean, and can also attract ducks.

Consider foraging as addition to farming.

Look at Tappan on Survival for some more subsistance farming / foraging
ideas.

Down Under On The Bucket Farm wrote:
...I am working on long-term plans for self-sufficiency, oriented to
buying some bare land and building an off-grid house, rainwater
catchment, composting toilet, etc, etc.
One issue is the question of how much physical space would be
needed to grow enough food to completely support myself?...

I do understand the risk of, for example, having a bad year, bad
weather, etc, and so would have money set aside to buy food in
that case. But the plan is to avoid that if at all possible.

I live in New Zealand, with plenty of rain in winter, but also
reasonable sunshine in summer...





No definite answer to this one. Too many variables. However, there is a
book, written probably in the 1940's (judging from the illustrations),
called "5 Acres and Independence", author's name escapes me at the
moment, but I think it starts with a K. It's full of receipes for
various necessities such as building your own septic tank, root crop
storage, etc., so although it's dated it might contain something of
value.

You will have to grow more than you need, because you will need some
money to buy (or trade for) stuff you can't grow (e.g. salt [unless you
have a salt mine or live by the sea])

Just Googled the book, author Maurice Kains. Available at Amazon.com
(reprint, paperback $7.95US, some used copies cheaper). Check your local
library.

If you look at Buffalo Bird Woman's Garden:
http://digital.library.upenn.edu/wom...en/garden.html

You can see what they did for subsistence living in North America 150
years ago. Corn & squash for carbohydrates, beans for protein,
sunflowers for fats, ground cherries for vitamins.
(She mentions buffalo scrotums & deer antlers as tools, but I don't
recall if she says how much meat they needed by hunting.)

Jeavons books aim at something like what you are interested in:

http://www.bountifulgardens.org/grow...e-books.html#1

I don't know if anyone ever actually lived exclusively on the produce
they grew in these little plots. Looks pretty hard to me.


Hope this helps,

--
Bob Mounger



gregpresley wrote:
Although people have talked about the work, the land, the crops, and maybe
the animals, you really have to think about your caloric needs, and what is
practical/possible to grow to supply those. Vegetables are great, (my
favorites), but most are low in calories, so they won't supply the energy
you need to do the farming. For that you need concentrated sources of
carbohydrates. A large quantity of potatoes can be grown on small plots,
which is how the Irish survived when most of their most farmable land was
owned by the English. When potatoes are your SOLE source of carbohydrates,
you are probably talking something like 5 pounds per day....Grains like
wheat need a fair amount of land to grow, as only a tiny part of the plant
translates into useable food. Most cereal grains, like wheat,corn and oats,
need more land, but less intensive cultivation, except at planting and
harvest time. (In biblical times, didn't they just scratch the ground and
then throw the seed on the field out of bags or something?) Some of the
small grains eaten whole, such as quinoa and amaranth, could probably be
grown on a much smaller plot and could provide a good carbohydrate
alternative to potatoes - as well as adding some needed variety - but only
if you like their taste. I think buckwheat can also be grown compactly, as
it is not a true grain. Root vegetables such as turnips, parsnips, and
rutabagas are also pretty good sources of carbohydrates - and carrots too,
if eaten in quantity. Hard winter squash is also a pretty good source of
carbohydrates. That might need more land if you are going to plant enough to
last through the winter.
With a total vegetarian diet, you will also need to think about sources
of fat. It would be a good idea to plant a nut tree - however, it might be
15-25 years before you get an impressive crop.
Beans, dried peas, and other legumes can supply the majority of
protein needs, but again, you have to like them - and you have to have a
successful crop. Most people would want to have eggs for an additional
protein source, but keeping chickens adds another layer of work to a
one-person operation. If you wanted milk, then you are talking about cows
and/or goats, which again, add another layer of work - and more land
requirements - as well as setting aside some land solely for grazing.
In some cultures, certain types of insects are eaten as sources of
protein - for example, termites. But that might be hard for a person from
Western Cultures to stomach.
"Down Under On The Bucket Farm" wrote in message
...

Hi Everybody,

I am working on long-term plans for self-sufficiency, oriented to
buying some bare land and building an off-grid house, rainwater
catchment, composting toilet, etc, etc.

One issue is the question of how much physical space would be
needed to grow enough food to completely support myself?

I am willing to eat anything that is healthy, preferably
remaining vegetarian (although I am quite willing to have
chickens for eggs, and perhaps a goat for milk.)

This would involve one person living alone, in decent physical
condition, willing to do hard work and learn whatever is needed.

I realise that the yearly food yield will have to be spread out
via preserving, canning, etc.

My "day job" can be done remotely, via wireless Internet
connection, with flexible hours, thus leaving time and
opportunity for extensive gardening/farming, etc.

I do understand the risk of, for example, having a bad year, bad
weather, etc, and so would have money set aside to buy food in
that case. But the plan is to avoid that if at all possible.

I live in New Zealand, with plenty of rain in winter, but also
reasonable sunshine in summer.

So... How many acres of flat, farm-able land will I need?


Thanks in advance!

-V.

--
Guide To DIY Living
http://www.self-reliance.co.nz
(Work in progress)

Try ducks instead of chickens for eggs. They forage more on their own and
some breeds (Khaki Campbells) lay just as well as chickens. Geese are
excellent foragers, but they don't lay for very long.

I've found ducks to be more hardy, less likely to get sick, but messier.

Jena

"David Hare-Scott" wrote in message ...


Excellent idea. Without such you will be subject to seasonal
feast/famine even with good preserving techniques.

David

Since the original poster was posting from subtropical Australia, I
doubt it. One just has to have winter vegetables, and things like
grains and beans.

"Bob Peterson" wrote in message ...

personally I suspect you can do a lot on 5 good acres with a continuous
water source, but I am leery of trusting my life to such a small area.


such a small area? In the US we produce easily 2 tons of wheat per
acre, which will cover the caloric needs of 7. Given that 90% of the
acreage is for feed,
we have much less than an acre per person to live on.

"Pam - gardengal" wrote in message news:jUIAb.453413$Tr4.1256311@attbi_s03...
[snip]
I'm not sure acreage is necessary. I have a friend who grows all the fruit
and produce she needs to support her family on a small urban lot. And she
has enough left over to share with a local foodbank.

Zucchini to the left of me.
Zucchini to the right of me.

Really, it depends on what your definition of "self-sufficient" is.

Did you grow that computer terminal? Did you raise enough food to
barter for that computer terminal? What about that hoe? Or that
shovel? Or that nail? Or that chicken wire? Well, if you understand
the answers to those questions, you probably were never here
in the first place.
Socks

there is someone in tasmania working along those lines as i understand
it he doesn't even have power, not sure now where i've seen his posts,
but maybe you could post this question in aus.gardens, or
http://www.au.gardenweb.com/forums/ozgard/.

we have near 70 acres here in queensland in aus', can't live without
power/phone etc.,. could grow enough veges on 2 to 5 acres need more
to grow enough fruit but we love our meat so could never grow enough
chooks/ducks/beef to keep the freezer full. then there are the things
like sugar, salt, tea/coffee, fuel, soap etc.,. so maybe partial self
sufficiency is attainable? could be a full time job just doing enough
to survive. and like you say then the affects of climate/weather kick
in.

where starting off simply trying to supplement, so far w don't buy
much in the vege line, but being in the sub-tropics can't imagine how
to grow enough potatoes, sweet potatoes yes but then not every body
likes them in the diet.

just my thoughts keep us informed on how you as you go along.

len

snipped
--
happy gardening
'it works for me it could work for you,'

"in the end ya' gotta do what ya' gotta do" but consider others and the environment
http://home.dnet.aunz.com/gardnlen/

Ian Stirling wrote in message ...
In misc.survivalism Down Under On The Bucket Farm wrote:
Hi Everybody,

I am working on long-term plans for self-sufficiency, oriented to
buying some bare land and building an off-grid house, rainwater
catchment, composting toilet, etc, etc.

One issue is the question of how much physical space would be
needed to grow enough food to completely support myself?

The answer kind of depends if you'r in the middle of the Amazon, Antarctica,
or Austria.

As Ian points out we'd need to know generally where you want to
attempt this project. It's one thing to try it in the Southeast and
quite another to try it in the Intermountain West.

We'd also need to have a fair idea of what your choice of diet would
be. The typical American eats a fair amount of meat, consumes a good
deal of fat, and an even greater amount of sugar in his diet. All
three of these will impact heavily on how much land you'd need to
maintain your customary diet.

Should you happen to be a vegetarian who does not customarily eat a
lot of fats or sugar matters become much simpler.

No matter how you cut it true subsistence farming is a time consuming
occupation even with a high degree of mechanization. It can be done,
but if you're not already an avid gardener you'd best be ready for a
major lifestyle change.

Gene Logsdon has published a number of books concerning homesteading -
which is generally what you're talking about here - and they'll go a
long way to pointing out the particulars of your project. In
conjunction with spending some time with your local county
agricultural agent to gain familiarity with local conditions you'll be
a long ways towards understanding what it is you're wanting to do.

My advice is to start small. Plant a reasonable sized vegetable
garden to supply your fresh summer veggies. If you succeed with that
expand your operation to supply your winter veggies - fresh or
preserved. Then add in either small scale grain growing or small
scale livestock such as chickens or rabbits.

You manage all that and you'll have a very good idea of what you need
to do to flesh out the rest of the plan.

......Alan.

"...........In the US we produce easily 2 tons of wheat per
acre, which will cover the caloric needs of 7........."

You might do this on 100 acre fields where the birds are spoiled for choice,
but you try a small plot of grain and see just how much the birds have.

--
David Hill
Abacus nurseries
www.abacus-nurseries.co.uk
***2004 catalogue now available***

"simy1" wrote in message
om...
"Bob Peterson" wrote in message
...

personally I suspect you can do a lot on 5 good acres with a continuous
water source, but I am leery of trusting my life to such a small area.


such a small area? In the US we produce easily 2 tons of wheat per
acre, which will cover the caloric needs of 7. Given that 90% of the
acreage is for feed,
we have much less than an acre per person to live on.

true, but this is using highly mechanized farming, specialty chemicals, and
hybrid seeds. what was being discussed was subsistence farming using all
manual labor. a radically different idea.

When it came canning time (it) was weeks of very hard hot work to
'put up'
hundreds of quarts or pints of fruits and vegitables. This is serious
business since we didn't buy any canned goods.

And for this, one needs a steady source of cooking flame, a pressure
cooker, a source of clean water, a large container capable of holding
multiple Mason jars, MULTIPLE Mason jars with matching seals and
rings, storage space, and a good place to wash and dry everything in
the first place.

Or one can blanch most fruits/veggies and freeze them, but then one
needs similar equipment as above, plus refrigeration/freezing, and
suitable containers.

Don't forget what the ambient temperatures are when all these foods
ripen and need to be preserved over that hot cookstove, either.

Linda H., veteran observer of canning

Thanks Linda,

Then what I remembered from 60+ years ago wasn't a flash back to 'Little
House'. That really was my Mother sweeting over the wood stove on a hot
August day after day after day.. Then going into tears when half the tomato
jars burst their top.

It is/was a rough life and I'm glad that I can now live in the woods, can't
see any utility lines (cause their underground), have running water from a
community well and with my social secruity and a small military pension I
eat very well without a garden.. Ya see I worked hard all my life for the
military and others and earned/paid into a pension plan that allows me to
retire in comfort in the woods.

Not to say there is anything wrong with hard work, but some of us are more
inclined to work in society and in the end have what we want while others
want to flee from society and work directly for what they want. In the end,
let's hope that we both can eventually relax and enjoy the fruits of our
individual labor.

Steve

Ian Stirling wrote in message
...
In misc.survivalism Down Under On The Bucket Farm
wrote:
Hi Everybody,

I am working on long-term plans for self-sufficiency, oriented to
buying some bare land and building an off-grid house, rainwater
catchment, composting toilet, etc, etc.

One issue is the question of how much physical space would be
needed to grow enough food to completely support myself?

Kains wrote "5 Acres and Independence"

This is a reprint of a post WW2 get out of the city and back to the land
overview. It was also republished as The Mother Earth News issue #2;
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=3572219710

I seem to recall a 5 acre section of fast growing hybrid poplars would
supply an annual supply of firewood on a sustainable basis.

Another title I recall is Independence on a 5 acre farm.

Like any plan of this type, it all depends on the source of fresh water
as the #1 factor.

Bernadette

"Bob Peterson" wrote in message ...
"simy1" wrote in message
om...
"Bob Peterson" wrote in message
...

personally I suspect you can do a lot on 5 good acres with a continuous
water source, but I am leery of trusting my life to such a small area.


such a small area? In the US we produce easily 2 tons of wheat per
acre, which will cover the caloric needs of 7. Given that 90% of the
acreage is for feed,
we have much less than an acre per person to live on.

true, but this is using highly mechanized farming, specialty chemicals, and
hybrid seeds. what was being discussed was subsistence farming using all
manual labor. a radically different idea.

not sure I agree. On 1/6 acre, you can do things manually and
organically and still produce 300 kg over one year, and one can
certainly use hybrid seeds. As a matter of fact, in the best places we
do more like 4 tons per acre, so even if you want to save your own
seeds and use older varieties there is room for error. We have been
doing tons per acre for a long long time. Also, 300 kg of wheat are,
what, 60-70 bucks? I don't see the need to farm five acres in the
expectation of losing 97% of the crop. The guy has another job
apparently.