In North America at present, including Canada, there are about 500,000 square
miles of mountain forests that are removed from major population centers
and in a climate that is cold-temperate or better.

Assuming 300,000,000 people in the U.S. and Canada, and that 5% of those
people can make it to, or are already in, the Rockies (etc.), that gives these
areas a post-Collapse population density of approximately 30 people per
square mile, or about 20 acres apiece, back-to-back.

(your neighbor will be able to hit your house with a thrown rock from their
front porch)


(these areas include a lot of grasslands, too, but are predominantly forested)


In these conditions, only a survival group that can remain inconspicuous will
have a chance of avoiding continual battles with refugees or roving bandits,
or continually running from them, and the only way to accomplish this is to
have a plant-based lifestyle.



If you HAVE to run, then you had better know your wild edible plants, of
which there are more than 1800 species in North America, because trapping
and hunting will SERIOUSLY slow you down...


AC

On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 00:28:29 GMT, Alan Connor babbled:

Buzz, buzz, buzz, buzz, buzz, buzz, buzz, buzz, buzz, buzz, buzz, buzz, buzz,
buzz, buzz, buzz, buzz, buzz, buzz, buzz, buzz, buzz, buzz, buzz, buzz, buzz,
buzz, buzz, buzz, buzz, buzz, buzz, buzz, buzz, buzz, buzz, buzz, buzz, buzz,
buzz, buzz, buzz, buzz, buzz, buzz, buzz, buzz, buzz, buzz.

And it made as much sense as anything else he's ever posted.


It is easier to fight for our principles than to live up to them.-Alfred Adler

Xref: kermit rec.gardens.edible:66868 rec.gardens:262136 misc.survivalism:514397 misc.rural:121978 rec.backcountry:177449

On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 00:28:29 GMT, Alan Connor wrote:



In North America at present, including Canada, there are about 500,000 square
miles of mountain forests that are removed from major population centers
and in a climate that is cold-temperate or better.

Assuming 300,000,000 people in the U.S. and Canada, and that 5% of those
people can make it to, or are already in, the Rockies (etc.), that gives these
areas a post-Collapse population density of approximately 30 people per
square mile, or about 20 acres apiece, back-to-back.

(your neighbor will be able to hit your house with a thrown rock from their
front porch)


(these areas include a lot of grasslands, too, but are predominantly forested)


In these conditions, only a survival group that can remain inconspicuous will
have a chance of avoiding continual battles with refugees or roving bandits,
or continually running from them, and the only way to accomplish this is to
have a plant-based lifestyle.



If you HAVE to run, then you had better know your wild edible plants, of
which there are more than 1800 species in North America, because trapping
and hunting will SERIOUSLY slow you down...


AC

Why would a live by the skin of your teeth existence be preferable to
staying in your own neighborhood or town and working together with your
neighbors and friends? Furthermore...What Collapse?

g.c.

On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 00:28:29 GMT, Alan Connor wrote:



In North America at present, including Canada, there are about 500,000 square
miles of mountain forests that are removed from major population centers
and in a climate that is cold-temperate or better.

Assuming 300,000,000 people in the U.S. and Canada, and that 5% of those
people can make it to, or are already in, the Rockies (etc.), that gives these
areas a post-Collapse population density of approximately 30 people per
square mile, or about 20 acres apiece, back-to-back.

(your neighbor will be able to hit your house with a thrown rock from their
front porch)

So, you are saying that after the collapse, my neighbors biceps are
going to mutate into such freakishly large proportions that they will
be able to throw rocks 20 acres?


(these areas include a lot of grasslands, too, but are predominantly forested)



In these conditions, only a survival group that can remain inconspicuous will
have a chance of avoiding continual battles with refugees or roving bandits,
or continually running from them, and the only way to accomplish this is to
have a plant-based lifestyle.

Says you. I happen to disagree entirely and I count your opinion as
much less important then my own. Then again, I am planning for a much
more likely event than the total and permanent collapse of
civilization.


If you HAVE to run, then you had better know your wild edible plants, of
which there are more than 1800 species in North America, because trapping
and hunting will SERIOUSLY slow you down...


AC
kb9wfk

Why would a live by the skin of your teeth existence be preferable to
staying in your own neighborhood or town and working together with your
neighbors and friends? Furthermore...What Collapse?

g.c.
Yeah... What collapse is that?

On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 00:28:29 GMT, Alan Connor said:



In North America at present, including Canada, there are about 500,000 square
miles of mountain forests that are removed from major population centers
and in a climate that is cold-temperate or better.

Assuming 300,000,000 people in the U.S. and Canada, and that 5% of those
people can make it to, or are already in, the Rockies (etc.), that gives these
areas a post-Collapse population density of approximately 30 people per
square mile, or about 20 acres apiece, back-to-back.

(your neighbor will be able to hit your house with a thrown rock from their
front porch)


(these areas include a lot of grasslands, too, but are predominantly forested)


In these conditions, only a survival group that can remain inconspicuous will
have a chance of avoiding continual battles with refugees or roving bandits,
or continually running from them, and the only way to accomplish this is to
have a plant-based lifestyle.



If you HAVE to run, then you had better know your wild edible plants, of
which there are more than 1800 species in North America, because trapping
and hunting will SERIOUSLY slow you down...


AC

Dammit boy, are you still spewing the same old shit ?
Have you really ever given any thought as to what would cause such a
collaps ? IMO only an all out nuclear war could do it, and in that
case most living in the cities are dead meat. If they don't get killed
from the blasts, they will die soon after from the radiation, and
disease (living in a city after it has been nuked would be like living
inside of a septic tank, because of the death and decay all around).
The only survivors would be those who plan and prepared in advance and
most of those would already be living in the country. I just don't see
hoards of refugees heading for the hills after a nuclear war, I see
those that are foolish enough to try dying along the way. The ones who
do happen to make it will IMO adapt very quickly, they will have no
choice.

This "all the animals will soon be hunted out" shit is crap because in
an all out nuclear war the animals will die from radiation and the
other effects of nuclear weapons. Same goes for plants, they will all
die and the land will turn into a bearon waste land with nothing but
death everywhere. The only plants that 'may' survive might be the
trees because they can go dormant for quite awhile. Be sure to save
your seeds because it may take years before the radiation in the soil
to decay to safe levels, so planting a garden is out of the question,
unless you have enough electricity to grow indoors. The only humans
that will survive long term will be the ones who prepared to survive
for the long haul. (IOW, at least 5 years of supplys stashed away per
person)

Another event that would cause the kind of collaps that you invision
would be an "earth killing astriod" and in that case there would be
very ';few' survivors prepared or not. However IMO there would be
enough junk left around for those few survivors to get by on, if
they'er smart enough.

"George Cleveland" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 00:28:29 GMT, Alan Connor wrote:



In North America at present, including Canada, there are about 500,000
square
miles of mountain forests that are removed from major population centers
and in a climate that is cold-temperate or better.

Assuming 300,000,000 people in the U.S. and Canada, and that 5% of those
people can make it to, or are already in, the Rockies (etc.), that gives
these
areas a post-Collapse population density of approximately 30 people per
square mile, or about 20 acres apiece, back-to-back.

(your neighbor will be able to hit your house with a thrown rock from
their
front porch)


(these areas include a lot of grasslands, too, but are predominantly
forested)


In these conditions, only a survival group that can remain inconspicuous
will
have a chance of avoiding continual battles with refugees or roving
bandits,
or continually running from them, and the only way to accomplish this is
to
have a plant-based lifestyle.



If you HAVE to run, then you had better know your wild edible plants, of
which there are more than 1800 species in North America, because trapping
and hunting will SERIOUSLY slow you down...


AC

Why would a live by the skin of your teeth existence be preferable to
staying in your own neighborhood or town and working together with your
neighbors and friends? Furthermore...What Collapse?

His!

"KB9WFK" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 00:28:29 GMT, Alan Connor wrote:



In North America at present, including Canada, there are about 500,000
square
miles of mountain forests that are removed from major population centers
and in a climate that is cold-temperate or better.

Assuming 300,000,000 people in the U.S. and Canada, and that 5% of those
people can make it to, or are already in, the Rockies (etc.), that gives
these
areas a post-Collapse population density of approximately 30 people per
square mile, or about 20 acres apiece, back-to-back.

(your neighbor will be able to hit your house with a thrown rock from
their
front porch)

So, you are saying that after the collapse, my neighbors biceps are
going to mutate into such freakishly large proportions that they will
be able to throw rocks 20 acres?


Can you say.....trebuchet....? That would do the job quite nicely.
Quite low tech to boot!

RE/
If you HAVE to run, then you had better know your wild edible plants, of
which there are more than 1800 species in North America, because trapping
and hunting will SERIOUSLY slow you down...

Think of how old you are.

Now pick a number: the number of estimated years between you and a natural,
inevitable death from old age.

Life is sweet - albiet much too short - and either one of us could wake up dead
tomorrow - heart attack, virus, drunk driver...or just plain stupidity.

Stop thinking about the end of the world and enjoy what you have left



--
PeteCresswell

On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 01:40:26 GMT, George Cleveland wrote:


On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 00:28:29 GMT, Alan Connor wrote:



In North America at present, including Canada, there are about 500,000 square
miles of mountain forests that are removed from major population centers
and in a climate that is cold-temperate or better.

Assuming 300,000,000 people in the U.S. and Canada, and that 5% of those
people can make it to, or are already in, the Rockies (etc.), that gives these
areas a post-Collapse population density of approximately 30 people per
square mile, or about 20 acres apiece, back-to-back.

(your neighbor will be able to hit your house with a thrown rock from their
front porch)


(these areas include a lot of grasslands, too, but are predominantly forested)


In these conditions, only a survival group that can remain inconspicuous will
have a chance of avoiding continual battles with refugees or roving bandits,
or continually running from them, and the only way to accomplish this is to
have a plant-based lifestyle.



If you HAVE to run, then you had better know your wild edible plants, of
which there are more than 1800 species in North America, because trapping
and hunting will SERIOUSLY slow you down...


AC

Why would a live by the skin of your teeth existence be preferable to
staying in your own neighborhood or town and working together with your
neighbors and friends?

Who said anything about a "skin of your teeth existence". It is possible to
live very comfortably with no animal products and in a camoflauged settlement.


As for staying with your friends and neighbors, well, if you live on a road,
then refugees and bandits will find you, easily, and you'll have to deal with
them.

(less so with a small, remote town, of course)


It is also very hard to be self-sufficient in a town and impossible if the
majority of people aren't prepared.

The resources generally aren't the land and trees and minerals and water.
(most municipal water systems will not survive and are very easy to sabotage,
giving
bandits a way to bring you to your knees)


Furthermore...What Collapse?

The one that pillaging the planet with a lifestyle that requires a large
under-class inevitably leads to.

Like the Great Depression.


That's all the Collapse is, a Great Depression in a world with too many
unhappy people that lacks the resources and social cohesivenss to recover.

It is the Final Depression.


AC

On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 01:55:17 GMT, Ross wrote:



Why would a live by the skin of your teeth existence be preferable to
staying in your own neighborhood or town and working together with your
neighbors and friends? Furthermore...What Collapse?

g.c.
Yeah... What collapse is that?


See the other post, Okay?


AC

On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 02:33:59 GMT, "(Pete Cresswell)" wrote:

RE/
If you HAVE to run, then you had better know your wild edible plants, of
which there are more than 1800 species in North America, because trapping
and hunting will SERIOUSLY slow you down...

Think of how old you are.

Now pick a number: the number of estimated years between you and a natural,
inevitable death from old age.

Life is sweet - albiet much too short - and either one of us could wake up dead
tomorrow - heart attack, virus, drunk driver...or just plain stupidity.

Stop thinking about the end of the world and enjoy what you have left

Excellent advice! However, what Alan enjoys is this fantasy life of
his. g
Sue

On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 01:40:26 GMT, George Cleveland wrote:


On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 00:28:29 GMT, Alan Connor wrote:



In North America at present, including Canada, there are about 500,000 square
miles of mountain forests that are removed from major population centers
and in a climate that is cold-temperate or better.

Assuming 300,000,000 people in the U.S. and Canada, and that 5% of those
people can make it to, or are already in, the Rockies (etc.), that gives these
areas a post-Collapse population density of approximately 30 people per
square mile, or about 20 acres apiece, back-to-back.

(your neighbor will be able to hit your house with a thrown rock from their
front porch)


(these areas include a lot of grasslands, too, but are predominantly forested)


In these conditions, only a survival group that can remain inconspicuous will
have a chance of avoiding continual battles with refugees or roving bandits,
or continually running from them, and the only way to accomplish this is to
have a plant-based lifestyle.



If you HAVE to run, then you had better know your wild edible plants, of
which there are more than 1800 species in North America, because trapping
and hunting will SERIOUSLY slow you down...


AC

Why would a live by the skin of your teeth existence be preferable to
staying in your own neighborhood or town and working together with your
neighbors and friends?

Who said anything about a "skin of your teeth existence". It is possible to
live very comfortably with no animal products and in a camoflauged settlement.


As for staying with your friends and neighbors, well, if you live on a road,
then refugees and bandits will find you, easily, and you'll have to deal with
them.

(less so with a small, remote town, of course)


It is also very hard to be self-sufficient in a town and impossible if the
majority of people aren't prepared.

The resources generally aren't the land and trees and minerals and water.
(most municipal water systems will not survive and are very easy to sabotage,
giving
bandits a way to bring you to your knees)


Furthermore...What Collapse?

The one that pillaging the planet with a lifestyle that requires a large
under-class inevitably leads to.

Like the Great Depression.


That's all the Collapse is, a Great Depression in a world with too many
unhappy people that lacks the resources and social cohesivenss to recover.

It is the Final Depression.


AC

On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 01:55:17 GMT, Ross wrote:



Why would a live by the skin of your teeth existence be preferable to
staying in your own neighborhood or town and working together with your
neighbors and friends? Furthermore...What Collapse?

g.c.
Yeah... What collapse is that?


See the other post, Okay?


AC

On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 02:33:59 GMT, "(Pete Cresswell)" wrote:

RE/
If you HAVE to run, then you had better know your wild edible plants, of
which there are more than 1800 species in North America, because trapping
and hunting will SERIOUSLY slow you down...

Think of how old you are.

Now pick a number: the number of estimated years between you and a natural,
inevitable death from old age.

Life is sweet - albiet much too short - and either one of us could wake up dead
tomorrow - heart attack, virus, drunk driver...or just plain stupidity.

Stop thinking about the end of the world and enjoy what you have left

Excellent advice! However, what Alan enjoys is this fantasy life of
his. g
Sue