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  #46   Report Post  
Old 20-03-2004, 06:07 AM
Bonnie Punch
 
Posts: n/a
Default THANKS - AND THANKS FOR NOTHING



Well, I send about 200 pieces of mail art out into the world each month.
Some to people I've traded stuff with for twenty years, some to people I
don't know at all. When sending to new people I suspect less than a third
respond by sending mail art in return, which according to the rules of the
game all mail-artists are supposed to do. But my sentiment has always been
if I get something in return, super; if I don't get something in return,
no big deal, cuz maybe even then I spread a momentary delight to someone
before they tossed my art in the garbage, or better still magnetted it to
their refrigerator. I don't need to know what happened. My first reward is
that I did it at all. If I get a second reward of someone informing me
they were made happy by it, or a third reward in being made happy by
someone else's art sent to me, or in some cases the shocking reward of
discovering that something I made ten years ago is permanently archived in
museums in Cuba, Hungary, Canada, England, & the United States -- well,
the less reward sought, the more reward there seems to be!

I've heard mail artists complain the way Helen complained about seeds,
that they send out mail art to people who say they are mail artists, who
are supposed to send art back, but who never respond in any manner -- no
expression of grattitude, no acknowledgement, nothing in trade, nada,
whine, winge, woe is me the Great Sharer. I say stop kvetching -- or stop
sharing if it makes you so whiny. The purpose of sharing is not personal
gain. And a 20% response rate is a HUGE personal gain even though even
that shouldn't be required.

In Helen's case it's even a little like giving away samples of candy in
the grocery store & expecting them to come back the next day to say thank
you -- if they can't say thank you up front & that be enough, then don't
bother. And a properly addressed envelop or package gets there 99.999999%
of the time, so requiring acknowledgement that it was at least received is
just an exuse for the neediness. I think most people would feel if they
gave away 100 packets of seeds and made as few as two lasting friends from
the deal, good lord that's fantastic. Griping about the others is
churlish.


Over the years I've sent out hundreds of packets of seeds myself. I've
even made a few friends that way. As you say - great, fantastic, I'm
glad I did it, and I'll do it again.

Being considerate of others is a necessity in our crowded world. There
are far too many people who have been raised with a sense of
entitlement, that the world *owes* them the
credit/degree/boobs/whathaveyou that they deserve. Why should they
think that their nice new seeds, or mail art are yet one more thing
owed them. I think it is rude to offer no thanks for a deed done, and
if saying so reminds a few people of their lapse in manners we're all
better off. Some people will never get the message, they're too
selfish, but if every now and then someone stands up and says "You
morons! Where are your manners!", a few will get the point.

Helen's not whining - she's ****ed off and is giving a well deserved
chewing out to the people that deserve it. Her post was both a public
thanks to the those who appreciated her seeds, and a PFO letter to the
others that took her seeds and ran. Should we all decide that
expressing dissatisfaction is a no-no? Heavens! Our self esteem might
suffer if someone said something bad - cant have that! We've all told
people off for poor behavior, and we need to continue doing it from
time to time when it persists.

BP
  #47   Report Post  
Old 20-03-2004, 06:23 AM
Bonnie Punch
 
Posts: n/a
Default THANKS - AND THANKS FOR NOTHING



Well, I send about 200 pieces of mail art out into the world each month.
Some to people I've traded stuff with for twenty years, some to people I
don't know at all. When sending to new people I suspect less than a third
respond by sending mail art in return, which according to the rules of the
game all mail-artists are supposed to do. But my sentiment has always been
if I get something in return, super; if I don't get something in return,
no big deal, cuz maybe even then I spread a momentary delight to someone
before they tossed my art in the garbage, or better still magnetted it to
their refrigerator. I don't need to know what happened. My first reward is
that I did it at all. If I get a second reward of someone informing me
they were made happy by it, or a third reward in being made happy by
someone else's art sent to me, or in some cases the shocking reward of
discovering that something I made ten years ago is permanently archived in
museums in Cuba, Hungary, Canada, England, & the United States -- well,
the less reward sought, the more reward there seems to be!

I've heard mail artists complain the way Helen complained about seeds,
that they send out mail art to people who say they are mail artists, who
are supposed to send art back, but who never respond in any manner -- no
expression of grattitude, no acknowledgement, nothing in trade, nada,
whine, winge, woe is me the Great Sharer. I say stop kvetching -- or stop
sharing if it makes you so whiny. The purpose of sharing is not personal
gain. And a 20% response rate is a HUGE personal gain even though even
that shouldn't be required.

In Helen's case it's even a little like giving away samples of candy in
the grocery store & expecting them to come back the next day to say thank
you -- if they can't say thank you up front & that be enough, then don't
bother. And a properly addressed envelop or package gets there 99.999999%
of the time, so requiring acknowledgement that it was at least received is
just an exuse for the neediness. I think most people would feel if they
gave away 100 packets of seeds and made as few as two lasting friends from
the deal, good lord that's fantastic. Griping about the others is
churlish.


Over the years I've sent out hundreds of packets of seeds myself. I've
even made a few friends that way. As you say - great, fantastic, I'm
glad I did it, and I'll do it again.

Being considerate of others is a necessity in our crowded world. There
are far too many people who have been raised with a sense of
entitlement, that the world *owes* them the
credit/degree/boobs/whathaveyou that they deserve. Why should they
think that their nice new seeds, or mail art are yet one more thing
owed them. I think it is rude to offer no thanks for a deed done, and
if saying so reminds a few people of their lapse in manners we're all
better off. Some people will never get the message, they're too
selfish, but if every now and then someone stands up and says "You
morons! Where are your manners!", a few will get the point.

Helen's not whining - she's ****ed off and is giving a well deserved
chewing out to the people that deserve it. Her post was both a public
thanks to the those who appreciated her seeds, and a PFO letter to the
others that took her seeds and ran. Should we all decide that
expressing dissatisfaction is a no-no? Heavens! Our self esteem might
suffer if someone said something bad - cant have that! We've all told
people off for poor behavior, and we need to continue doing it from
time to time when it persists.

BP
  #48   Report Post  
Old 20-03-2004, 01:04 PM
 
Posts: n/a
Default THANKS - AND THANKS FOR NOTHING




A person gives to others, but receives no recognition or
acknowledgement for the time, effort or even cost.

It is so important for humanity to be recognized. If it weren't, no
one would complain about their jobs, their relationships... its a very
important issue to most people. We *all* need thanks, recognition and
acknowledgement from time to time.

I know a lady who looked back in her life and wrote letters of thanks
to various teachers, mentors and whatnot along her path in life. She
also wrote several old bands whose music meant a lot to her. You can
imagine how much those letters must have meant after all these years.

Saying thanks didn't cost her anything but a stamp and a good heart.

Phyliss



On Fri, 19 Mar 2004 22:49:01 -0500, Bonnie Punch
wrote:



You sound a little needy, which might be off-putting to some seed
recipients.


Helen is the very opposite of needy.


"Needy" doesn't only mean poor,hard-up. It's also used to describe
people who (consciously or not), manipulate other people and social
situations in order to support some hidden psychological need of their
own.


Paghat meant emotionally needy. I knew that, and I meant that she is
not any more needy than the rest of us. We *all* manipulate people
*all* the time. We pay attention to a spouse/lover so that they will
love us, and we won't be alone. We flatter a friend so they'll like us
and we'll have someone to talk to. In order to get you have to give. We
all have psycological, physical and emotional needs. It's part of being
human.

She very generously offers to send
seeds to people *at her own expense*! If you send to more than a dozen
people, that starts to add up to some real $$$.


Well, Helen said she had packaged and sent a consignment to over 300
recipients, many abroad.Yes, that's some real $$$; "investing" so much
time and money in strangers could mean she's rather emotionally needy in
the above sense. As Paghat pointed out, needy behaviour often often
makes people shy away.


Maybe she's just really nice? I realize that generosity is a dying
trait, so it can be difficult to recognize it when you see it. Even
nice people will complain when they feel like too many people have
taken advantage of them. Interpreting frustration over a lack of
manners as needy is a bit of a stretch. There's nothing needy about her
behavior - she's venting her anger. What's she supposed to do? People
need to be reminded of basic ettiquette sometimes, and some people
won't get it unless you hit them upside the head with a clue-by-four.

This isn't the first time someone has complained here of a lack of a
decent response when sending out items. When we were children we were
taguht by our parents to say thank you, but some people seem to think
that it's no longer necessary as an adult.

All she wants is a simple thank you. Why is that so hard to accept?

BP


  #49   Report Post  
Old 20-03-2004, 01:12 PM
 
Posts: n/a
Default THANKS - AND THANKS FOR NOTHING




A person gives to others, but receives no recognition or
acknowledgement for the time, effort or even cost.

It is so important for humanity to be recognized. If it weren't, no
one would complain about their jobs, their relationships... its a very
important issue to most people. We *all* need thanks, recognition and
acknowledgement from time to time.

I know a lady who looked back in her life and wrote letters of thanks
to various teachers, mentors and whatnot along her path in life. She
also wrote several old bands whose music meant a lot to her. You can
imagine how much those letters must have meant after all these years.

Saying thanks didn't cost her anything but a stamp and a good heart.

Phyliss



On Fri, 19 Mar 2004 22:49:01 -0500, Bonnie Punch
wrote:



You sound a little needy, which might be off-putting to some seed
recipients.


Helen is the very opposite of needy.


"Needy" doesn't only mean poor,hard-up. It's also used to describe
people who (consciously or not), manipulate other people and social
situations in order to support some hidden psychological need of their
own.


Paghat meant emotionally needy. I knew that, and I meant that she is
not any more needy than the rest of us. We *all* manipulate people
*all* the time. We pay attention to a spouse/lover so that they will
love us, and we won't be alone. We flatter a friend so they'll like us
and we'll have someone to talk to. In order to get you have to give. We
all have psycological, physical and emotional needs. It's part of being
human.

She very generously offers to send
seeds to people *at her own expense*! If you send to more than a dozen
people, that starts to add up to some real $$$.


Well, Helen said she had packaged and sent a consignment to over 300
recipients, many abroad.Yes, that's some real $$$; "investing" so much
time and money in strangers could mean she's rather emotionally needy in
the above sense. As Paghat pointed out, needy behaviour often often
makes people shy away.


Maybe she's just really nice? I realize that generosity is a dying
trait, so it can be difficult to recognize it when you see it. Even
nice people will complain when they feel like too many people have
taken advantage of them. Interpreting frustration over a lack of
manners as needy is a bit of a stretch. There's nothing needy about her
behavior - she's venting her anger. What's she supposed to do? People
need to be reminded of basic ettiquette sometimes, and some people
won't get it unless you hit them upside the head with a clue-by-four.

This isn't the first time someone has complained here of a lack of a
decent response when sending out items. When we were children we were
taguht by our parents to say thank you, but some people seem to think
that it's no longer necessary as an adult.

All she wants is a simple thank you. Why is that so hard to accept?

BP


  #50   Report Post  
Old 20-03-2004, 02:36 PM
Salty Thumb
 
Posts: n/a
Default THANKS - AND THANKS FOR NOTHING

(Helen J. Foss) wrote in
:

For several years now I have posted 'FREE SEEDS - POSTAGE PAID'
on
rec/gardens and received multi requests for tomato seeds.
I filled the requests for what folks asked for. Took the time to
label the individual little 'baggies', insert the seeds, secured them
between cardboard sheets and mailed them off at my own expense. I
didn't, and don't have a problem with this.
I put together over 300 packets last fall alone and enjoyed doing
it. The ONLY thing I asked in return was that the recipients of my
labors, notify me when they received the seeds....I don't think that
was too much to ask for.
A few offered me some different seeds, which I though was a nice
gesture on their part, and I accepted the offer. To this day I have
not received any seeds, but that doesn't really bother me as much as
the fact that a few of the ones I sent seeds to, didn't have the
common courtesy to sit at the keyboard for one minute, and tell me
they received the seeds....how long does it take to say 'I got them'?
I have sent seeds to many States, Alaska (I know it's a State),
Australia, United Kingdom and Wales and received reports that the
seeds have done well in their area.
Now suddenly I'm receiving further requests for seeds, and have
already maialed out over 150 packets, for which I have received
replies of their arrival.
To the folks that sent me messages telling me of their arrival, I
say a BIG THANK you, and hope I'll be able to send you some new and
different seeds next fall.
To the folks that were too busy to spend a minute on the
keyboard, I say THANKS FOR NOTHING, and there will be no further
shipments from this source.
To those who want to flame me, just want to say that I had to
vent
my disappointment in certain people that have no time to show a little
common courtesy to a fellow gardener.
Hope you all have a great growing season and abundant crops.

--

x



I think you people are way off. There isn't anything needy or
emotionally needy about Helen's behaviour. She doesn't need to send
seeds and she doesn't "need" to get a response. Her reaction
to the lack of response is classically maternal ... after having sent
off her well wrapped babies into the world, she rightfully would expect
to know if they arrived safely or were eaten by a squirrel. Facing
unknown results, she's become more protective of her adoptive progeny
and given stern notice to the thankless squirrely folks out there that
there will be no more free lunch.

-Dr. S. Thumb, Ph.D.
Board Certified by the National Academy of Nut Seasonings

P.S. Helen, I haven't requested anything nor gotten anything from you,
but I would like to thank you for being willing share. I have my hands
full already so I'm not surreptitiously angling to get something and were
you to offer I would have politely refuse.


  #51   Report Post  
Old 20-03-2004, 02:51 PM
Salty Thumb
 
Posts: n/a
Default THANKS - AND THANKS FOR NOTHING

(Helen J. Foss) wrote in
:

For several years now I have posted 'FREE SEEDS - POSTAGE PAID'
on
rec/gardens and received multi requests for tomato seeds.
I filled the requests for what folks asked for. Took the time to
label the individual little 'baggies', insert the seeds, secured them
between cardboard sheets and mailed them off at my own expense. I
didn't, and don't have a problem with this.
I put together over 300 packets last fall alone and enjoyed doing
it. The ONLY thing I asked in return was that the recipients of my
labors, notify me when they received the seeds....I don't think that
was too much to ask for.
A few offered me some different seeds, which I though was a nice
gesture on their part, and I accepted the offer. To this day I have
not received any seeds, but that doesn't really bother me as much as
the fact that a few of the ones I sent seeds to, didn't have the
common courtesy to sit at the keyboard for one minute, and tell me
they received the seeds....how long does it take to say 'I got them'?
I have sent seeds to many States, Alaska (I know it's a State),
Australia, United Kingdom and Wales and received reports that the
seeds have done well in their area.
Now suddenly I'm receiving further requests for seeds, and have
already maialed out over 150 packets, for which I have received
replies of their arrival.
To the folks that sent me messages telling me of their arrival, I
say a BIG THANK you, and hope I'll be able to send you some new and
different seeds next fall.
To the folks that were too busy to spend a minute on the
keyboard, I say THANKS FOR NOTHING, and there will be no further
shipments from this source.
To those who want to flame me, just want to say that I had to
vent
my disappointment in certain people that have no time to show a little
common courtesy to a fellow gardener.
Hope you all have a great growing season and abundant crops.

--

x



I think you people are way off. There isn't anything needy or
emotionally needy about Helen's behaviour. She doesn't need to send
seeds and she doesn't "need" to get a response. Her reaction
to the lack of response is classically maternal ... after having sent
off her well wrapped babies into the world, she rightfully would expect
to know if they arrived safely or were eaten by a squirrel. Facing
unknown results, she's become more protective of her adoptive progeny
and given stern notice to the thankless squirrely folks out there that
there will be no more free lunch.

-Dr. S. Thumb, Ph.D.
Board Certified by the National Academy of Nut Seasonings

P.S. Helen, I haven't requested anything nor gotten anything from you,
but I would like to thank you for being willing share. I have my hands
full already so I'm not surreptitiously angling to get something and were
you to offer I would have politely refuse.
  #52   Report Post  
Old 20-03-2004, 04:18 PM
David Hill
 
Posts: n/a
Default THANKS - AND THANKS FOR NOTHING

All I can add to this thread is how "Sad" the person must be who considers
saying "Thank you" for a gift is a form of payment.

--
David Hill
Abacus nurseries
www.abacus-nurseries.co.uk




  #53   Report Post  
Old 20-03-2004, 09:32 PM
Janet Baraclough..
 
Posts: n/a
Default THANKS - AND THANKS FOR NOTHING

The message a
from Bonnie Punch contains these words:


Paghat meant emotionally needy. I knew that, and I meant that she is
not any more needy than the rest of us.


Okay..because your next sentence mentioned financial expense I thought
you might have misread.

We *all* manipulate people
*all* the time.


I don't agree; I think most of us do it deliberately at some time or
other. But many people consciously avoid doing it, as much as possible.

We pay attention to a spouse/lover so that they will
love us, and we won't be alone. We flatter a friend so they'll like us
and we'll have someone to talk to.


Do you? How very odd. I don't do either of those things. My husband
still adores me unconditionally, and my friends know that a compliment
from me is genuinely deserved by them and genuinely felt by me.

In order to get you have to give.


That isn't generosity, it's self-seeking.

Maybe she's just really nice?


Could be :-)

What's she supposed to do?
People
need to be reminded of basic ettiquette sometimes, and some people
won't get it unless you hit them upside the head with a clue-by-four.


I would be very surprised if any uncaring selfish ingrates would give
a damn about a general public rant about basic etiquette. They've got
away with their bad manners scot-free; nobody here knows who they are,
so they won't lose out next time there's a general seed-offer.

This isn't the first time someone has complained here of a lack of a
decent response when sending out items.


Exactly; so everyone knows by now that if you send seeds to usenet
strangers, not all of them will bother to thank. People are responsible
for themselves and the consequences of their own choices, as Victoria
and Paghat have already said.

Thankyou for this conversation :-)

Janet.



  #54   Report Post  
Old 20-03-2004, 09:45 PM
Janet Baraclough..
 
Posts: n/a
Default THANKS - AND THANKS FOR NOTHING

The message a
from Bonnie Punch contains these words:


Paghat meant emotionally needy. I knew that, and I meant that she is
not any more needy than the rest of us.


Okay..because your next sentence mentioned financial expense I thought
you might have misread.

We *all* manipulate people
*all* the time.


I don't agree; I think most of us do it deliberately at some time or
other. But many people consciously avoid doing it, as much as possible.

We pay attention to a spouse/lover so that they will
love us, and we won't be alone. We flatter a friend so they'll like us
and we'll have someone to talk to.


Do you? How very odd. I don't do either of those things. My husband
still adores me unconditionally, and my friends know that a compliment
from me is genuinely deserved by them and genuinely felt by me.

In order to get you have to give.


That isn't generosity, it's self-seeking.

Maybe she's just really nice?


Could be :-)

What's she supposed to do?
People
need to be reminded of basic ettiquette sometimes, and some people
won't get it unless you hit them upside the head with a clue-by-four.


I would be very surprised if any uncaring selfish ingrates would give
a damn about a general public rant about basic etiquette. They've got
away with their bad manners scot-free; nobody here knows who they are,
so they won't lose out next time there's a general seed-offer.

This isn't the first time someone has complained here of a lack of a
decent response when sending out items.


Exactly; so everyone knows by now that if you send seeds to usenet
strangers, not all of them will bother to thank. People are responsible
for themselves and the consequences of their own choices, as Victoria
and Paghat have already said.

Thankyou for this conversation :-)

Janet.



  #55   Report Post  
Old 20-03-2004, 10:04 PM
zxcvbob
 
Posts: n/a
Default THANKS - AND THANKS FOR NOTHING

Janet Baraclough.. wrote:

This isn't the first time someone has complained here of a lack of a
decent response when sending out items.



Exactly; so everyone knows by now that if you send seeds to usenet
strangers, not all of them will bother to thank. People are responsible
for themselves and the consequences of their own choices, as Victoria
and Paghat have already said.

Thankyou for this conversation :-)

Janet.



Isn't everyone entitled to a rant every once in a while? At least Helen's
was relevant to this group.

-Bob



  #56   Report Post  
Old 20-03-2004, 10:19 PM
zxcvbob
 
Posts: n/a
Default THANKS - AND THANKS FOR NOTHING

Janet Baraclough.. wrote:

This isn't the first time someone has complained here of a lack of a
decent response when sending out items.



Exactly; so everyone knows by now that if you send seeds to usenet
strangers, not all of them will bother to thank. People are responsible
for themselves and the consequences of their own choices, as Victoria
and Paghat have already said.

Thankyou for this conversation :-)

Janet.



Isn't everyone entitled to a rant every once in a while? At least Helen's
was relevant to this group.

-Bob

  #57   Report Post  
Old 20-03-2004, 10:32 PM
Ann
 
Posts: n/a
Default THANKS - AND THANKS FOR NOTHING

"David Hill" expounded:

All I can add to this thread is how "Sad" the person must be who considers
saying "Thank you" for a gift is a form of payment.


Hear, hear!

--
Ann, Gardening in zone 6a
Just south of Boston, MA
********************************
  #58   Report Post  
Old 20-03-2004, 10:42 PM
Ann
 
Posts: n/a
Default THANKS - AND THANKS FOR NOTHING

"David Hill" expounded:

All I can add to this thread is how "Sad" the person must be who considers
saying "Thank you" for a gift is a form of payment.


Hear, hear!

--
Ann, Gardening in zone 6a
Just south of Boston, MA
********************************
  #59   Report Post  
Old 21-03-2004, 12:14 AM
Janet Baraclough..
 
Posts: n/a
Default THANKS - AND THANKS FOR NOTHING

The message
from Salty Thumb contains these words:

I think you people are way off. There isn't anything needy or
emotionally needy about Helen's behaviour. She doesn't need to send
seeds and she doesn't "need" to get a response. Her reaction
to the lack of response is classically maternal ... after having sent
off her well wrapped babies into the world, she rightfully would expect
to know if they arrived safely or were eaten by a squirrel. Facing
unknown results, she's become more protective of her adoptive progeny
and given stern notice to the thankless squirrely folks out there that
there will be no more free lunch.


-Dr. S. Thumb, Ph.D.
Board Certified by the National Academy of Nut Seasonings


Thankyou for putting it in a nutshell. I shall attempt to gnaw it.

S. Nutkins.
  #60   Report Post  
Old 21-03-2004, 12:14 AM
Janet Baraclough..
 
Posts: n/a
Default THANKS - AND THANKS FOR NOTHING

The message
from Salty Thumb contains these words:

I think you people are way off. There isn't anything needy or
emotionally needy about Helen's behaviour. She doesn't need to send
seeds and she doesn't "need" to get a response. Her reaction
to the lack of response is classically maternal ... after having sent
off her well wrapped babies into the world, she rightfully would expect
to know if they arrived safely or were eaten by a squirrel. Facing
unknown results, she's become more protective of her adoptive progeny
and given stern notice to the thankless squirrely folks out there that
there will be no more free lunch.


-Dr. S. Thumb, Ph.D.
Board Certified by the National Academy of Nut Seasonings


Thankyou for putting it in a nutshell. I shall attempt to gnaw it.

S. Nutkins.
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